Musk, the World's First Trillionaire - Is He Worth It?

[PlainName]

If you don't like my opinion or comparisons, then ignore them.

You know, that's always an option for you too. Maybe if I annoy you so much you should consider it.

Didn't think I'd get that apology. Came after me to explain, and when I did, you just moved on. This is the standard. Gaslighting, sling some mud, claim you didn't, more gaslighting, mix repeat.

I didn't say you annoyed me. I'm honored that you keep chasing me. 
Where to next, pal?
 

Mate, you waffled. I didn't call you names at all and I didn't gaslight you. I didn't dispute that the truck is 7th or whatever. What I did say was that Must promised X but wound up giving much, much less than that. You deflected by comparing it to other stuff, which wasn't in dispute or part of the discussion. That's known in the UK political circuit as throwing a dead cat on the table - it deflects and detracts from some point that's been made.

None of that is gaslighting and none of it is calling you names and none of it is mudslinging. It is all simple statement of facts.

[Cyclotron]

If you don't like my opinion or comparisons, then ignore them.

You know, that's always an option for you too. Maybe if I annoy you so much you should consider it.

Didn't think I'd get that apology. Came after me to explain, and when I did, you just moved on. This is the standard. Gaslighting, sling some mud, claim you didn't, more gaslighting, mix repeat.

I didn't say you annoyed me. I'm honored that you keep chasing me. 
Where to next, pal?
 

Mate, you waffled. I didn't call you names at all and I didn't gaslight you. I didn't dispute that the truck is 7th or whatever. What I did say was that Must promised X but wound up giving much, much less than that. You deflected by comparing it to other stuff, which wasn't in dispute or part of the discussion. That's known in the UK political circuit as throwing a dead cat on the table - it deflects and detracts from some point that's been made.

None of that is gaslighting and none of it is calling you names and none of it is mudslinging. It is all simple statement of facts.

Why are you so hung up on Cybertruck production numbers? Does that somehow win you something?
I'm not sure why you keep going on about it. 

I didn't deflect or do any of the stuff you just made up. I spoke about my views and opinions on the topics being discussed, added links and data points. You just won't happy that whatever it is that someone else says doesn't line up with your thoughts and opinions. It's a "forum," m-kay? Get over yourself. 

I claimed you implied names, etc and showed you where you did. If you feel that you can imply someone has a condition and view that as not name-calling and mudslinging, that's on you.
It's derogatory and just nasty behavior. But you do, you. 

You either made those statements, or you did, and it's pretty obvious that you did in the record of it. You can't just wave your hand and say you didn't.
You are welcome to disengage and walk away anytime you like.
 

[EEVblog]

The biggest problem I have with Tesla is they seemed to become single-minded on eliminating some quite useful things in cars, like door handles, gear selectors and levers for indicators and wipers.  To save a few bucks they eliminate parts that can be replaced with software, which makes the car actively worse to use.

I'd agree with that. I mean, seriously, what's wrong with normal door handles?

[tom66]

The biggest problem I have with Tesla is they seemed to become single-minded on eliminating some quite useful things in cars, like door handles, gear selectors and levers for indicators and wipers.  To save a few bucks they eliminate parts that can be replaced with software, which makes the car actively worse to use.

I'd agree with that. I mean, seriously, what's wrong with normal door handles?

"The best part is no part" - Elon Musk.

Even if it means in the event of a crash, first responders can't easily get you out of the car when the 12V battery dies, and you need to panic and look for the emergency release, which for the rear seats in the Model 3 is absent and Y is inexplicably hidden.  This was fixed after 2024, but there are still 4-7 years of car production where there was no easily accessible emergency door release for the rear.  This is something of course every rear-seat passenger in a Tesla will know... right?  Better hope that battery doesn't start to burn. Whatever was wrong with door handles?

(I am not anti EV... but batteries prevent novel risks, and I'm sure as hell going to want a quick way to get out of any car post-accident, if I'm able to do so.)

[Cyclotron]

The biggest problem I have with Tesla is they seemed to become single-minded on eliminating some quite useful things in cars, like door handles, gear selectors and levers for indicators and wipers.  To save a few bucks they eliminate parts that can be replaced with software, which makes the car actively worse to use.

I'd agree with that. I mean, seriously, what's wrong with normal door handles?

"The best part is no part" - Elon Musk.

Even if it means in the event of a crash, first responders can't easily get you out of the car when the 12V battery dies, and you need to panic and look for the emergency release, which for the rear seats in the Model 3 is absent and Y is inexplicably hidden.  This was fixed after 2024, but there are still 4-7 years of car production where there was no easily accessible emergency door release for the rear.  This is something of course every rear-seat passenger in a Tesla will know... right?  Better hope that battery doesn't start to burn. Whatever was wrong with door handles?

(I am not anti EV... but batteries prevent novel risks, and I'm sure as hell going to want a quick way to get out of any car post-accident, if I'm able to do so.)

I agree it's a bad design. I hate the Lexus E-Latch on my car.  It's electronic, though you can supposedly bypass it with a key. First responders don't have such keys, so they have to do what they do and cut you out. Just dumb to push these that far into an answer to a question no one asked.

[Psi]

The biggest problem I have with Tesla is they seemed to become single-minded on eliminating some quite useful things in cars, like door handles, gear selectors and levers for indicators and wipers.  To save a few bucks they eliminate parts that can be replaced with software, which makes the car actively worse to use.

I'd agree with that. I mean, seriously, what's wrong with normal door handles?

"The best part is no part" - Elon Musk.

Even if it means in the event of a crash, first responders can't easily get you out of the car when the 12V battery dies, and you need to panic and look for the emergency release, which for the rear seats in the Model 3 is absent and Y is inexplicably hidden.  This was fixed after 2024, but there are still 4-7 years of car production where there was no easily accessible emergency door release for the rear.  This is something of course every rear-seat passenger in a Tesla will know... right?  Better hope that battery doesn't start to burn. Whatever was wrong with door handles?

(I am not anti EV... but batteries prevent novel risks, and I'm sure as hell going to want a quick way to get out of any car post-accident, if I'm able to do so.)

I agree it's a bad design. I hate the Lexus E-Latch on my car.  It's electronic, though you can supposedly bypass it with a key. First responders don't have such keys, so they have to do what they do and cut you out. Just dumb to push these that far into an answer to a question no one asked.

I also agree that the push to remove controls in favor of electronic or automation alternatives is getting out of control. There should be laws in place for safety systems.
Personally I wouldn't focus all the blame for this on Tesla since it's happening across all industries and all products. But yes Tesla are contributing to this issue in the automotive space.

[SiliconWizard]

The biggest problem I have with Tesla is they seemed to become single-minded on eliminating some quite useful things in cars, like door handles, gear selectors and levers for indicators and wipers.  To save a few bucks they eliminate parts that can be replaced with software, which makes the car actively worse to use.

I'd agree with that. I mean, seriously, what's wrong with normal door handles?

"The best part is no part" - Elon Musk.

Yeah, it's BS.
Replacing a part that can fail with a simpler part that is less likely to fail is better (as long as usability is not hindered), but replacing a part that can maybe fail after thousands of cycles with something that has complex sensors, programmable ICs and complex software is completely dumb more often than not. The new solution may "look" simpler from a layman, ignorant POV, but it is actually way more complex with dozens of additional failure modes.

[Psi]

The concept "the best part is no part" is good it just needs to be implemented with common sense, like any other concept.

Obviously removing the airbags from a car would fit within the rule but obviously that's a terrible idea.
The optimization that Tesla did on the heating/cooling system for the model 3 is a great example of how the rule should be used.

The concept exists to
- Stop pointless parts existing in a system because one design department isn't talking to the other design departments and it's creating duplication.
- Challenge assumptions of why things are needed.

[Siwastaja]

The biggest problem I have with Tesla is they seemed to become single-minded on eliminating some quite useful things in cars, like door handles, gear selectors and levers for indicators and wipers.  To save a few bucks they eliminate parts that can be replaced with software, which makes the car actively worse to use.

I'd agree with that. I mean, seriously, what's wrong with normal door handles?

It's all about trying to be disruptive, different. Tesla did that on all fronts: being disruptive by building a production electric car with long driving range, good performance and fast charging was a good disruptive thing, but at the same time, they also included every questionable silicon valley feature they could imagine. Now that Tesla's predictions/master plans ("we will be the first, then the classic car manufacturers will repeat what we did") turned out to be exactly right, and Tesla's long driving range, high performance and quick charging is nothing special anymore, we pay more attention to their shenanigans. They also need to come up with new shenanigans.

The most hilarious detail is when old car manufacturers copy features out of Tesla "just because", even when they know that everyone hates those features. Like the deathtrap door handles. In Tesla, they are new, unique, innovative, even if crap. In others, they feel like cheap copycatting, non-innovative, non-unique, and equally crap. Why do they do it?

[tom66]

I also agree that the push to remove controls in favor of electronic or automation alternatives is getting out of control. There should be laws in place for safety systems.
Personally I wouldn't focus all the blame for this on Tesla since it's happening across all industries and all products. But yes Tesla are contributing to this issue in the automotive space.

Fortunately in EU, there will be a push from EuroNCAP to score cars negatively that do not include certain features as physical buttons.  I think this is already taking place and you see car manufacturers responding in kind here.

I wonder how Tesla will respond given the only button in the Model 3 is the hazard light button and a couple on the steering wheel.

[PlainName]

only button in the Model 3 is the hazard light button

Presumably that's because it's mandated to operate in the case of a catastrophic failure of all systems (like, a breakdown)? Strange, then, that the door handles aren't already the same, but I imagine there is the possibility of an external door release making them easier to nick.

[tom66]

only button in the Model 3 is the hazard light button

Presumably that's because it's mandated to operate in the case of a catastrophic failure of all systems (like, a breakdown)? Strange, then, that the door handles aren't already the same, but I imagine there is the possibility of an external door release making them easier to nick.

I recall a regulation that hazard lights must be controllable and operable for up to 4 hours after a power failure of an ICE or EV drivetrain.  Tesla's shut down the touchscreen fairly early on as the car computer pulls 50-100W, so they need a manual control in that case.

I remember on my old Golf GTE that the hazard light button remained lit up when the battery voltage was only 8-9 volts (flat lead acid battery).  The lights would still flash but you'd get no telltales on the dashboard, no click sound, just external lights - presumably to get the ~4 hours they will run the battery down to nothing.  Literally the only thing lit up inside the car was that hazard light triangle and you could toggle the interior dome light on.

[EEVblog]

The concept "the best part is no part" is good it just needs to be implemented with common sense, like any other concept.

Obviously removing the airbags from a car would fit within the rule but obviously that's a terrible idea.
The optimization that Tesla did on the heating/cooling system for the model 3 is a great example of how the rule should be used.

The concept exists to
- Stop pointless parts existing in a system because one design department isn't talking to the other design departments and it's creating duplication.
- Challenge assumptions of why things are needed.

I really like the look and basic functionality of the Slate EV truck (ute)
https://www.slate.auto/en
A bare bones EV truck from $25k with old school hand wind windows 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JIzHLJUL0f8

[Psi]

I also agree that the push to remove controls in favor of electronic or automation alternatives is getting out of control. There should be laws in place for safety systems.

Fortunately in EU, there will be a push from EuroNCAP to score cars negatively that do not include certain features as physical buttons. 
I wonder how Tesla will respond given the only button in the Model 3 is the hazard light button and a couple on the steering wheel.

Scoring cars negativity for this is stupid.  Either it's a safety issue and it should be written into law so all new cars have it, or it's not a safety issue and everyone is free to buy a car that has the type of controls they want.

[Cyclotron]

The concept "the best part is no part" is good it just needs to be implemented with common sense, like any other concept.

Obviously removing the airbags from a car would fit within the rule but obviously that's a terrible idea.
The optimization that Tesla did on the heating/cooling system for the model 3 is a great example of how the rule should be used.

The concept exists to
- Stop pointless parts existing in a system because one design department isn't talking to the other design departments and it's creating duplication.
- Challenge assumptions of why things are needed.

I really like the look and basic functionality of the Slate EV truck (ute)
https://www.slate.auto/en
A bare bones EV truck from $25k with old school hand wind windows 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JIzHLJUL0f8

This! Thanks. I hadn't seen these. It doesn't have to have a spaceship cockpit and I can have one to kick around junk for the yard and crap.
I bet it won't make it to the states.

[EEVblog]

I really like the look and basic functionality of the Slate EV truck (ute)
https://www.slate.auto/en
A bare bones EV truck from $25k with old school hand wind windows 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JIzHLJUL0f8

This! Thanks. I hadn't seen these. It doesn't have to have a spaceship cockpit and I can have one to kick around junk for the yard and crap.
I bet it won't make it to the states.

It's an american car, made in america, you can put a down payment now I think.
it's funded by Jeff Bezos

[Bud]

The biggest problem I have with Tesla is they seemed to become single-minded on eliminating some quite useful things in cars, like door handles, gear selectors and levers for indicators and wipers.  To save a few bucks they eliminate parts that can be replaced with software, which makes the car actively worse to use.

I'd agree with that. I mean, seriously, what's wrong with normal door handles?

Believe or not, aerodynamics and fuel saving. 

[Cyclotron]

I really like the look and basic functionality of the Slate EV truck (ute)
https://www.slate.auto/en
A bare bones EV truck from $25k with old school hand wind windows 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JIzHLJUL0f8

This! Thanks. I hadn't seen these. It doesn't have to have a spaceship cockpit and I can have one to kick around junk for the yard and crap.
I bet it won't make it to the states.

It's an american car, made in america, you can put a down payment now I think.
it's funded by Jeff Bezos

Wow, I think I'm going to sign up and reserve a spot.

[Cyclotron]

Seems Ford is working on a 30k EV pickup.
https://www.ford.com/spotted/?clickref=1101lDumwWkS&fcid=aff_partnerize|1101-5823_skimlinks_phg

Supposed to be released in 2027.  The Slate and this Ford are the kinds of price points that will lead to EV adoption. There's no need to throw tax breaks at people buying 100k car.
If we want mass adoptions, toss some breaks at people barely able to afford a new car to get them in an EV.  That might make sense. But this is why it never works. Those things come as tax breaks when the tax year closes, and none of those people have the money to sit on the expense and wait to be paid back.

[Randy222]

Seems Ford is working on a 30k EV pickup.
https://www.ford.com/spotted/?clickref=1101lDumwWkS&fcid=aff_partnerize|1101-5823_skimlinks_phg

Supposed to be released in 2027.  The Slate and this Ford are the kinds of price points that will lead to EV adoption. There's no need to throw tax breaks at people buying 100k car.
If we want mass adoptions, toss some breaks at people barely able to afford a new car to get them in an EV.  That might make sense. But this is why it never works. Those things come as tax breaks when the tax year closes, and none of those people have the money to sit on the expense and wait to be paid back.

When "everyone" buys a 30k EV, how will they be able to charge them? Upgrading capacity and grid is said to be a 20-25yr project.
So I perhaps see EV future with a power delivery issue, and, the 14cent kWh suddenly becomes 42cent kWh.

In other words, nobody is solving the problem, and, perhaps making it worse trying to use toxic lithium batteries.

I hear He3 for fusion is drumming up some chatter. H is easy to get at. This will basically come down to something like DAT vs CD, Betamax vs VHS.

[tom66]

Seems Ford is working on a 30k EV pickup.
https://www.ford.com/spotted/?clickref=1101lDumwWkS&fcid=aff_partnerize|1101-5823_skimlinks_phg

Supposed to be released in 2027.  The Slate and this Ford are the kinds of price points that will lead to EV adoption. There's no need to throw tax breaks at people buying 100k car.
If we want mass adoptions, toss some breaks at people barely able to afford a new car to get them in an EV.  That might make sense. But this is why it never works. Those things come as tax breaks when the tax year closes, and none of those people have the money to sit on the expense and wait to be paid back.

When "everyone" buys a 30k EV, how will they be able to charge them? Upgrading capacity and grid is said to be a 20-25yr project.
So I perhaps see EV future with a power delivery issue, and, the 14cent kWh suddenly becomes 42cent kWh.

In other words, nobody is solving the problem, and, perhaps making it worse trying to use toxic lithium batteries.

I hear He3 for fusion is drumming up some chatter. H is easy to get at. This will basically come down to something like DAT vs CD, Betamax vs VHS.

Cars/trucks last around 15-20 years, depending on the state.

The US has around 259 million motor vehicles; annual sales are around 15 million per year.  That's 17 years for the fleet to turn over on average (and of course some cars get preserved by enthusiasts, but that's mostly a rounding error.)

So even if Ford sells exclusively EVs in a year, and every other manufacturer does the same, you're still going to have 17 years to upgrade the grid.  In reality, even countries like Norway which have just got to 90%+ EV annual sales have only around 30% of vehicles on the road as electric. And their power grid is coping just fine.

In reality I doubt America will go >90% electric on car sales until at least 2035, possibly later than that.

One of the nice things EVs can do is balance renewable energy, when connected to a smart charger, since they can be remotely commanded to start and stop. This often can avoid gas peaker plants coming online.  The UK's largest energy supplier calls their intelligent EV network equivalent to a 1GW power plant that they can start and stop at a moment's notice.  Taken one step further, for customers who opt in, there's a trial of V2H where cars can discharge actively into the grid to support it during a shortage.

[Cyclotron]

Seems Ford is working on a 30k EV pickup.
https://www.ford.com/spotted/?clickref=1101lDumwWkS&fcid=aff_partnerize|1101-5823_skimlinks_phg

Supposed to be released in 2027.  The Slate and this Ford are the kinds of price points that will lead to EV adoption. There's no need to throw tax breaks at people buying 100k car.
If we want mass adoptions, toss some breaks at people barely able to afford a new car to get them in an EV.  That might make sense. But this is why it never works. Those things come as tax breaks when the tax year closes, and none of those people have the money to sit on the expense and wait to be paid back.

When "everyone" buys a 30k EV, how will they be able to charge them? Upgrading capacity and grid is said to be a 20-25yr project.
So I perhaps see EV future with a power delivery issue, and, the 14cent kWh suddenly becomes 42cent kWh.

In other words, nobody is solving the problem, and, perhaps making ot worse trying to use toxic lithium batteries.

I hear He3 for fusion is drumming up some chatter. H is easy to get at. This will basically come down to something like DAT vs CD, Betamax vs VHS.

I can't argue with the grid issue. And it's going to be compounded by the AI gold rush. Power availability has historically grown linearly, and I haven't seen any quick fixes.
I'm employed in AI-adjacent infrastructure, and we see huge amounts of demand, but we also know that things are going to hit a wall, and that wall is power.

The amount of power that only huge projects can produce is required. Nuclear is finally becoming active again in the US, and that can be a huge number in a small footprint. Solar projects might be faster, but they consume far more land area, which raises issues with scale, and their energy-in-to-out ratio is an order of magnitude lower than nuclear. 

[Psi]

The biggest problem I have with Tesla is they seemed to become single-minded on eliminating some quite useful things in cars, like door handles, gear selectors and levers for indicators and wipers.  To save a few bucks they eliminate parts that can be replaced with software, which makes the car actively worse to use.

I'd agree with that. I mean, seriously, what's wrong with normal door handles?

Believe or not, aerodynamics and fuel saving. 

I think the issue most people have with the Tesla door handle is them being an electronic rather than mechanical linkage to the lock. Aerodynamics isn't really a reason to make them that way.

I guess the flush handle thing might be annoying if you're using a Tesla as a Taxi. Since you would constantly be getting people who have never used a flush handle before and don't know how to open the door.  But in general once you have used one once you know how to use them and it's a non-issue for a normal user.

[Bud]

It is. Making it electronic vs mechanical would not require making door handles flash with the door panel, would it.

[Psi]

It is. Making it electronic vs mechanical would not require making door handles flash with the door panel, would it.

Correct. The flush thing is totally unrelated to the mechanic vs electrical thing