Author Topic: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger ** UPDATE **  (Read 9446 times)

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Offline KE5FX

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2023, 05:52:19 pm »
There is far more detail to the background that is not appropriate to share here, but let me just say that anyone who wishes to criticise the exercise for social reasons is doing so out of ignorance.

At the same time, the same can usually be said of one who attempts to solve a social problem through technological means.
 

Online ledtester

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2023, 06:22:48 pm »
Install a instant hot water electric shower head like this one:

 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2023, 06:46:17 pm »
Someone I know did this to monitor his tea drinking,
http://www.ronketti.org.uk/temp.html

Quote
For the technically curious, this lot is being processed by a Raspberry Pi, running Raspbian Linux. The Dallas DS18B20 temperature sensors are connected to the GPIO headers (3V3, Gnd and data, which is on GPIO4) and read by the kernel w1_therm module. This then punts the output to a logfile which is read by a bit of Perl that converts the tabular data to a graph, and builds a .png of it before uploading it to the server. It's not perfect. For some reason every now and then the sensor returns a "doesn't respond to CONVERT_TEMP" error and a -ve temperature. This is smoothed out by checking the CRC and re-reading if necessary.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
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So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2023, 12:33:23 am »
Please consider the practical aspects of addressing a problem before being so dismissive.
Kind of hard to do since this is the first time you've mentioned the camera.
But you didn't NEED to know about the camera.  You were already told that the head of the household had the means to determine the required information.  Even I didn't need to know exactly how they were going to do that.

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Now that we know this, your precise timestamping of pipe temperature makes more sense.
But, does having this knowledge change the way to approach the problem any differently?

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So another idea is a vibration sensor attached to the pipe listening for water flow. This will give a faster response than temperature.
Now THAT is why I presented this challenge here!  This is certainly an idea I will investigate.  Thank you!!   :-+

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If the security cam has a microphone input, you could even feed this "audio" into it and have everything in one recording.
I appreciate what you are saying, but the idea is to have the data displayed on a chart, so that the usage profile can be seen at a glance, hence a data logger is the way to go.  However, I suppose having the audio available as well could be useful - but it's on the opposite side of the building and adding this functionality falls under the dreaded umbrella of "feature creep".
« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 12:53:09 am by Brumby »
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2023, 12:39:50 am »
There is far more detail to the background that is not appropriate to share here, but let me just say that anyone who wishes to criticise the exercise for social reasons is doing so out of ignorance.

At the same time, the same can usually be said of one who attempts to solve a social problem through technological means.
Perhaps so, but I am not prepared to try and justify this exercise to your satisfaction because:
1. I've already said enough
2. Privacy considerations
3. It would take too long
4. You would be unlikely to appreciate the subtleties involved.  You know the saying: "You had to be there".
5. The usual social tools to address the situation have not been effective.  This technological element to the problem is being explored so that those social tools have support.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 12:49:16 am by Brumby »
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2023, 12:47:04 am »
Install a instant hot water electric shower head like this one:
Love the wiring!  <<shudder>>  but, no.

1. Situation prevents plumbing alterations.  (No, you don't need to know why.)
2. Same for electrical
3. Instantaneous water runs at full electrical tariff, so it will cost far more to run
4. Doesn't address the problem of the shower hog, in fact, it enables them


I will repeat my plea to all - Changing the hot water system is not a solution here!
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2023, 12:52:28 am »
Someone I know did this to monitor his tea drinking,
http://www.ronketti.org.uk/temp.html

Quote
For the technically curious, this lot is being processed by a Raspberry Pi, running Raspbian Linux. The Dallas DS18B20 temperature sensors are connected to the GPIO headers (3V3, Gnd and data, which is on GPIO4) and read by the kernel w1_therm module. This then punts the output to a logfile which is read by a bit of Perl that converts the tabular data to a graph, and builds a .png of it before uploading it to the server. It's not perfect. For some reason every now and then the sensor returns a "doesn't respond to CONVERT_TEMP" error and a -ve temperature. This is smoothed out by checking the CRC and re-reading if necessary.

Thank you.  It's ideas like this that I was hoping to see.
 

Online IanB

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2023, 01:31:18 am »
Depending on your budget, you might consider this?

https://www.thermoworks.com/node/

It has the advantage that after it has served its purpose, you might find other uses for it (e.g. monitoring fridge/freezer temperatures).
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2023, 01:44:59 am »
That looks like just the sort of off-the-shelf product that might work.  The 30 second minimum sampling time might miss short bursts of temperature change ... but, then, it's the longer ones that are really of interest.

The future usefulness is a good consideration.  (I hadn't got that far in my thinking yet.)

Thanks for this.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2023, 01:50:05 am »
Install a instant hot water electric shower head like this one:
Love the wiring!  <<shudder>>  but, no.

1. Situation prevents plumbing alterations.  (No, you don't need to know why.)
2. Same for electrical

3. Instantaneous water runs at full electrical tariff, so it will cost far more to run
4. Doesn't address the problem of the shower hog, in fact, it enables them


I will repeat my plea to all - Changing the hot water system is not a solution here!
55 replies and these 2 facts weren't included in the OP.  :-//
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2023, 02:52:16 am »
But you didn't NEED to know about the camera.  You were already told that the head of the household had the means to determine the required information.  Even I didn't need to know exactly how they were going to do that.

Well, knowing about it stops me from suggesting ideas that are not fitting. You see, I have no idea how large this "household" is... It now sounds more like a rooming house rather than the single family dwelling that I imagined initially. So my assumption, not knowing there was a camera, was that Mom was seeing her 5 kids coming and going from the bathroom to shower for the morning rush. So I thought, "what would be the problem with her also noting how long the water was running?" Lack of information makes people fill in the blanks.

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I appreciate what you are saying, but the idea is to have the data displayed on a chart, so that the usage profile can be seen at a glance, hence a data logger is the way to go.  However, I suppose having the audio available as well could be useful - but it's on the opposite side of the building and adding this functionality falls under the dreaded umbrella of "feature creep".

I mentioned it because you said that the person was stubborn and difficult. I can just see someone like that saying the "data displayed on a chart" doesn't align with the video footage. They'd say something like, "You faked the dates. The clocks aren't in sync. Your hobby project is flawed, etc." It's a lot harder to deny when its on video with all data right there in one place on a commercial machine.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 02:55:10 am by Kim Christensen »
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2023, 03:22:01 am »
Well, knowing about it stops me from suggesting ideas that are not fitting.
Only the head of the household needs to know how to identify the parties.  That fact alone should have stopped you from "suggesting ideas that are not fitting".

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Lack of information makes people fill in the blanks.
You need to be a bit more discerning as to which "blanks" are relevant and which are not.

As stated earlier:
And that still won't tell who used all the hot water, unless you add webcams at the girls college dorm showers.  ;D
That is not a problem I have to address.  If I simply make the times known,  the head of the household can work that out.

In regards to the audio recording:
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I mentioned it because you said that the person was stubborn and difficult. I can just see someone like that saying the "data displayed on a chart" doesn't align with the video footage. They'd say something like, "You faked the dates. The clocks aren't in sync. Your hobby project is flawed, etc." It's a lot harder to deny when its on video with all data right there in one place on a commercial machine.
Your point is well taken and, in general, valid.  However, while not impossible, in this case I do not feel such a response would be likely.  In any case, the additional complexity introduced makes the job more difficult and time consuming.

The simple fact of presenting time and duration information is likely to get the desired effect.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 03:47:33 am by Brumby »
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2023, 03:38:18 am »
Install a instant hot water electric shower head like this one:
Love the wiring!  <<shudder>>  but, no.

1. Situation prevents plumbing alterations.  (No, you don't need to know why.)
2. Same for electrical

3. Instantaneous water runs at full electrical tariff, so it will cost far more to run
4. Doesn't address the problem of the shower hog, in fact, it enables them


I will repeat my plea to all - Changing the hot water system is not a solution here!
55 replies and these 2 facts weren't included in the OP.  :-//

The brief was clear - a monitoring solution.  As such, all the behind-the-scenes details, constraints and reasons that had no bearing on providing a monitoring solution were irrelevant.

If you consider the fact that this is an Electronics forum, then asking for help about monitoring here is reasonable.  People suggesting changes to the plumbing were reading past the stated objective and inserting their own objectives.

Asking plumbing questions here is a bit off-topic, I would have thought.


Next time I'll just say I need to monitor the flow of water from a hot water system and leave out any other details so people can focus on the declared objective.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 03:48:27 am by Brumby »
 
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Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2023, 03:43:17 am »
You need to be a bit more discerning as to which "blanks" are relevant and which are not.

I will try and brush up on my mind reading skills. No promises.
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2023, 03:50:23 am »
All good.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2023, 04:48:52 am »
Install a instant hot water electric shower head like this one:
Love the wiring!  <<shudder>>  but, no.

1. Situation prevents plumbing alterations.  (No, you don't need to know why.)
2. Same for electrical

3. Instantaneous water runs at full electrical tariff, so it will cost far more to run
4. Doesn't address the problem of the shower hog, in fact, it enables them


I will repeat my plea to all - Changing the hot water system is not a solution here!
55 replies and these 2 facts weren't included in the OP.  :-//

The brief was clear - a monitoring solution.  As such, all the behind-the-scenes details, constraints and reasons that had no bearing on providing a monitoring solution were irrelevant.

If you consider the fact that this is an Electronics forum, then asking for help about monitoring here is reasonable.  People suggesting changes to the plumbing were reading past the stated objective and inserting their own objectives.

Asking plumbing questions here is a bit off-topic, I would have thought.

:-DD
Really, so you think we aren't smart enough to offer a wide range of solutions.

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Next time I'll just say I need to monitor the flow of water from a hot water system and leave out any other details so people can focus on the declared objective.
Insert plumbing flow meter is the cheapest solution and yes, it involves simple plumbing.
Even a flow switch like this one can provide what you want:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32848774229.html?

I used a 2" version for pump suction loss sensing in conjunction with a $2 timer to kill the power to a $ $ 3ph pump for dry run protection.
There are simple and cheap solutions for all manner of problems some think are hard.  ::)

I'll grab my hat and you won't hear from me again.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2023, 05:11:56 am »
Really, so you think we aren't smart enough to offer a wide range of solutions.
I was open to a wide range of solutions - to the problem: Monitoring.  I doesn't help it if you want to define your own problem and offer solutions for that.

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I'll grab my hat and you won't hear from me again.
If it's your plumber's hat, then fine, but you will always be welcome if you're wearing your EE hat.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2023, 02:41:32 pm »
Quote
Asking plumbing questions here is a bit off-topic
Na,ya just need a bigger soldering iron
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2023, 03:39:19 pm »
Quote
Asking plumbing questions here is a bit off-topic
Na,ya just need a bigger soldering iron
Wave guides, where the wave is water are not too far from topic.
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2023, 05:14:00 pm »
We have the technology lol

No turbine flow meter or other plumbings mods, an ultrasonic flow meter would be too much.
How about using nozzle water exit temp? Even then, quite the lag long 2 minutes for some reason.

project at https://www.hackster.io/85779/shower-temperature-sensor-5e13aa
 
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Offline BrokenYugo

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2023, 05:22:41 pm »
Might be easier to just monitor humidity in the bathroom. I would think whoever makes the longest RH spikes should be the heaviest hot water user, and you can do that with cheap home weather station type stuff.
 

Offline AndyBeez

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2023, 05:50:16 pm »
Love that Arduino shower sensor. Would scare the crap out of the 'technical experts' at the CIA - as it could bare more than a passing resemblance to a detonator connected to a highly sophisticated Chinese circuitboard. Are the bare battery leads almost touching?

As this is an electronics forum, I will avoid making any legal arguments over targeted surveillance, data gathering and possible discrimination or harassment of an individual who has no Idea that they are the indirect subject of the 'current flow' of discussion.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 05:53:45 pm by AndyBeez »
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2023, 10:55:26 pm »

That would definitely freak a couple of people...

... and it did make me smile.
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2023, 10:57:22 pm »
Might be easier to just monitor humidity in the bathroom. I would think whoever makes the longest RH spikes should be the heaviest hot water user, and you can do that with cheap home weather station type stuff.
Nice idea, but some use the exhaust fan - and some don't.
 

Offline BrumbyTopic starter

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Re: WHO USED ALL THE HOT WATER!!! Need a simple temperature data logger
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2023, 11:11:20 pm »
... of an individual who has no Idea that they are the indirect subject of the 'current flow' of discussion.
Oh, they know.  They are just champions of bullshit - I mean, world class.

As for discrimination, it is no more discriminating than someone being called on taking two portions of lasagna where n have been prepared for n people.  As I see it, discrimination is only an issue when the differentiation is based on invalid criteria.

Besides, I have a strong feeling that the problematic behaviour might change when the household is informed that hot water usage is being tracked.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 11:14:05 pm by Brumby »
 


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