Author Topic: Neon  (Read 8272 times)

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Online Zero999

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Re: Neon
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2022, 01:59:58 pm »
Read my post again. :palm:

Reading your post again doesn't change anything that I can see.

The UK is formally NOT part of the EU (Brexit happened, yes?)

I'm sure this was just a slip. (Freudian slip? ;D )
And that said, the fact the UK is not in the EU any more doesn't change much when it comes to the impact of the current conflict on them.
Just me miswording it, someone correcting it and me being blind to my own error. Even when I reread it. I still read what I meant to have written, rather than what was there.  :palm:I'm sure there's a name to this phenomenon, which isn't unique to me. Of course I can now see, I implied the EU used to be part of the UK, when of course the opposite was true.
 
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Offline IanB

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Re: Neon
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2022, 02:22:20 pm »
Which is part of the UK, formally part of the EU.

Just me miswording it, someone correcting it and me being blind to my own error. Even when I reread it. I still read what I meant to have written, rather than what was there.  :palm:I'm sure there's a name to this phenomenon, which isn't unique to me. Of course I can now see, I implied the EU used to be part of the UK, when of course the opposite was true.

Not to belabour the point, but the difference was between the use of formally (officially), and formerly (in the past)   :)

"The UK is formally (officially) part of the EU." -- no longer true
"The UK was formerly (previously) part of the EU." -- currently true
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Neon
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2022, 07:50:54 pm »
Luckily, as far as I'm aware, we don't have any Neon production facilities, so we can safely be ignored. :D


EDIT: Actually, not true, BOC sells it... https://www.boconline.co.uk/en/products-and-supply/speciality-gas/pure-gases/neon/neon.html
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Neon
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2022, 03:47:10 pm »
Is that $1 a litre for gas compressed to how many bar or as liquid or at atmospheric pressure asthis would make a vast difference to cos a dollar a litre for liquid would be cheap considering the energy inputs required.   
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Neon
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2022, 07:12:59 pm »
Is that $1 a litre for gas compressed to how many bar or as liquid or at atmospheric pressure asthis would make a vast difference to cos a dollar a litre for liquid would be cheap considering the energy inputs required.   

STP Standard Temperature and Pressure, so for gas at 1 atmosphere, at 25C, so when fully expanded to atmospheric pressure, not a compressed gas.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Neon
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2022, 09:12:03 pm »
Ukraine and Russia are also major suppliers of fertilizers, so that's probably a bigger source of concern than neon, to be honest. The man's gotta eat.

The ammonia used for fertilizer is produced from natural gas through the Haber process, so the two are intimately linked.  When natural gas prices rise, fertilizer prices follow them.

And wheat. I really hope the farmers are sowing, rather than fighting, otherwise there will be food shortages.

Fertilizer and diesel shortages within Ukraine will limit what farmers can produce, and heavy equipment like tractors is being taken into military service so will be unavailable anyway.
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Neon
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2022, 08:58:59 pm »
In this case it is probably a shortage due to evacuating the tiny number of mission critical persons with PhDs who actually know the process details. As well as the technicians. There are what, maybe 50-100 people in the world with the Neon refinery skill set at any given time?  All of a sudden they go from "Ordinary  Joe"  business person  to national asset  in time of war.

If I was in a war zone as  science officer and I found an undamaged  isotopic gas plant, I know it'd  want to crate it up and send it to the home country..

That makes preserving people and construction drawings critical.


Steve
"When in doubt, check the Byte order of the Communications Protocol, By Hand, On an Oscilloscope"

Quote from a co-inventor of the PLC, whom i had the honor of working with recently.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Neon
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2022, 10:10:12 pm »
If I was in a war zone as  science officer and I found an undamaged  isotopic gas plant, I know it'd  want to crate it up and send it to the home country..

If you were, one hopes you'd been adequately briefed on your obligations under the Geneva Convention relating to the protection of civilian property so you knew that you shouldn't, even if you wanted to, as that would be a war crime. It's only permissible to expropriate military materiel. Cryoin and Ingas are both civilian organisations.
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Offline westfw

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Re: Neon
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2022, 12:39:21 am »
Quote
they go from "Ordinary  Joe" business person to national asset in time of war.
that's very optimistic.  Perhaps they go from "valuable technical expert" to "soldier."  While neon might be a valuable international commodity, I expect that it won't be much of a priority in wartime.  "We need weapons!  And Medicine.  And maybe food.."
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Neon
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2022, 01:32:30 am »
If I was in a war zone as  science officer and I found an undamaged  isotopic gas plant, I know it'd  want to crate it up and send it to the home country..

If you were, one hopes you'd been adequately briefed on your obligations under the Geneva Convention relating to the protection of civilian property so you knew that you shouldn't, even if you wanted to, as that would be a war crime. It's only permissible to expropriate military materiel. Cryoin and Ingas are both civilian organisations.

I am sure that Putin and the Russians are spending a great deal of time evaluating whether their actions are compliant with the Geneva Convention.  Same for the Ukrainians. 

War is a desperate business, and the rules are written by the victors.   
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Neon
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2022, 02:36:29 am »
If I was in a war zone as  science officer and I found an undamaged  isotopic gas plant, I know it'd  want to crate it up and send it to the home country..

If you were, one hopes you'd been adequately briefed on your obligations under the Geneva Convention relating to the protection of civilian property so you knew that you shouldn't, even if you wanted to, as that would be a war crime. It's only permissible to expropriate military materiel. Cryoin and Ingas are both civilian organisations.

I am sure that Putin and the Russians are spending a great deal of time evaluating whether their actions are compliant with the Geneva Convention.  Same for the Ukrainians. 

War is a desperate business, and the rules are written by the victors.

Yes, but LaserSteve is from a civilised country that one hopes teaches its military to comply with the Geneva Conventions, which incidentally can trace their ancestry via the Hague Conventions back to the Lieber Code which was itself a product of the American Civil War.

It's precisely because war is a nasty business, and some people use it as an excuse to behave beyond the necessary horrors thereof, that we have things like the Conventions, have had international war crimes tribunals and have the International Criminal Court and other international institutions to make sure that the victors don't get to write arbitrary rules. It's not perfect, but it's better than "Might makes right".
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Offline Vovk_Z

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Re: Neon
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2022, 08:54:29 am »
When we are talking about Russia I don't see much thinking about Geneva conventions (at their side).
 
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: Neon
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2022, 11:31:28 am »
For the chemical purification of neon I don't see large technical hurdles and very special expertise needed. So it could be relatively fast for a new plant to be set up somewhere in the US and / or western Europe or ramp up the facility in China. It is not a big thing, more like a rather special niche product.

The isotope separation may be a bit more compliated, but still not a huge volume - maybe ask the Iran ?  :-DD

The more critcal product from the Ukrain is food and this is already starting to imparct northern africa.

 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Neon
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2022, 01:21:00 pm »
For the chemical purification of neon I don't see large technical hurdles and very special expertise needed. So it could be relatively fast for a new plant to be set up somewhere in the US and / or western Europe or ramp up the facility in China. It is not a big thing, more like a rather special niche product.

It's a question of what you're calling "relatively fast". I've heard figures of 2 years before you could get a plant on-stream being passed around and that doesn't seem unrealistic to me. One would need to build a plant that does fractional distillation at cryogenic temperatures (Ne boiling point 27 K, -246ºC), one would need to build it ultra-clean to start with, cool it down, and then run it long enough to purge unwanted gas residues from all the internal surfaces before taking out production gases. The purging bit is critical, as how quickly surface contaminants are likely to be purged is proportional to the square root of thermodynamic temperature. Remember that to purge surfaces of residual gas in a vacuum system one bakes it at as high a temperature as the system will allow (120ºC is fairly typical).

Oh, and on a pedantic technicality, it's not chemical purification, it's physical. You can't chemically purify neon, what with it being a noble gas and all.
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Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Neon
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2022, 01:21:08 pm »
I didn't know Geneva applied to civilian industry.
Thanks for the education.

The laboratory scale isotope enrichment  process for neon is very much like the gravity drip process for heavy water. Build a vertical tall pipe, run a glowing hot heating element down it's center, fill with natural neon, wait hours or days  for equilibrium, tap off tiny amount at each end.

There is also a DC high current glow discharge method using cataphorisis.

Neither of the above is fast , nor do they produce any reasonable quantity.  Both can be ran by graduate students.  Neither is commercially viable.

The hot vertical pipe process was used in World War Two to produce slightly enriched UF6 feedstock. It is anything but efficient.

So I'd agree, two years to add a retrofit to a large existing cryo plant would seem reasonable.

Edit,

Incidently the US has a few working calutrons for very, very,  small scale production of various metal isotopes for medicine etc. That project must cost a small fortune to run.

Steve
« Last Edit: March 21, 2022, 01:55:34 pm by LaserSteve »
"When in doubt, check the Byte order of the Communications Protocol, By Hand, On an Oscilloscope"

Quote from a co-inventor of the PLC, whom i had the honor of working with recently.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Neon
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2022, 01:28:08 pm »


I didn't know Geneva applied to civilian industry.
Thanks for the education.

Steve

Well, most of the time we can thankfully be completely ignorant of the details as we can be with anything that we (perhaps optimistically) believe we will never have anything to do with. If you're interested in the details it's the Fourth Geneva Convention "relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War".
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Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Neon
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2022, 02:26:12 pm »
For the hope and sanity of Scope Clockers, HF Hams who use tubes, Nixie Fans, the vast consumers of Tunnel Diodes and SRDs, guitar amp users,  and lovers of all things surplus Vacuum Fluorescent, the World must immediately act to end this senseless conflict.

I cannot live without more IP-9 tubes!

I call for immediate no fly zones over the vast home garage warehouses of antique electronic glass and "Hollow State" in both conflict Nations.

OH, Save the Humans too!

Steve
« Last Edit: March 21, 2022, 02:49:09 pm by LaserSteve »
"When in doubt, check the Byte order of the Communications Protocol, By Hand, On an Oscilloscope"

Quote from a co-inventor of the PLC, whom i had the honor of working with recently.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Neon
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2022, 03:34:06 pm »
For the chemical purification of neon I don't see large technical hurdles and very special expertise needed. So it could be relatively fast for a new plant to be set up somewhere in the US and / or western Europe or ramp up the facility in China. It is not a big thing, more like a rather special niche product.

The reality is that planning, designing, procuring and constructing a new plant to produce a gas like neon in industrial quantities would take a matter of years, not months, from initial concept to starting production. The only way it could be faster is if there is an existing plant that could be re-purposed.

Neon is produced as a by product of air separation by fractional distillation, and there are many air separation plants in existence and many companies with this expertise. However, capturing the neon and further purifying it to the required quality for industrial consumers needs further distillation steps, which is new plant that probably doesn't exist already.
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Neon
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2022, 03:48:06 pm »
More correctly there were regional trace gas  plants in many of the worlds existing plants. Then economics and excessive shareholder greed caused first consolidation, then closure of the regional plants. Usually citing the cost of labor, not the cost of operation. Then we go to ship the whole process overseas to "cheaper" and sell off national reserves. It is the "MBA" way and it can stifle innovation and eventually kill off the company in return for enhanced short term gain.

Since in many cases the Steel Mill using the Oxygen LN2 and possibility Argon from the plant essentially subsidizes the plant, pulling off the trace gasses in vapor phase or mixed phase should not be that expensive in the first place.

I work for chemical engineers, if there is any chance at all to profit from a plant's waste stream they Will find it.

Steve




« Last Edit: March 21, 2022, 04:02:26 pm by LaserSteve »
"When in doubt, check the Byte order of the Communications Protocol, By Hand, On an Oscilloscope"

Quote from a co-inventor of the PLC, whom i had the honor of working with recently.
 
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Offline IanB

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Re: Neon
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2022, 04:04:51 pm »
A possibility there, is if the old plants were mothballed instead of being fully decommissioned. Re-starting a mothballed plant is much faster than starting from scratch.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Neon
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2022, 05:19:39 pm »
A possibility there, is if the old plants were mothballed instead of being fully decommissioned. Re-starting a mothballed plant is much faster than starting from scratch.

Not a chance, industrial plant real estate is valuable, it would have rapidly been used for something else, either for more gas condensing equipment, or simply repurposed to extend existing plant into to increase production volume. Or it would have had every part stripped out to repair existing plant, and then used for warehousing or stores, or even used for office space.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Neon
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2022, 06:08:25 pm »
If I was in a war zone as  science officer and I found an undamaged  isotopic gas plant, I know it'd  want to crate it up and send it to the home country..

If you were, one hopes you'd been adequately briefed on your obligations under the Geneva Convention relating to the protection of civilian property so you knew that you shouldn't, even if you wanted to, as that would be a war crime. It's only permissible to expropriate military materiel. Cryoin and Ingas are both civilian organisations.

I am sure that Putin and the Russians are spending a great deal of time evaluating whether their actions are compliant with the Geneva Convention.  Same for the Ukrainians. 

War is a desperate business, and the rules are written by the victors.

A different scenario, perhaps more likely than Russia nicking the plant, is that they go in with the aim of destroying it. Since the West have implemented sanctions and more or less dried up any technology kit transfer, it's not like Russia would suffer much for the lack of neon whereas we would. Sounds like the perfect tit-for-tat on their part.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Neon
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2022, 01:46:01 am »
A different scenario, perhaps more likely than Russia nicking the plant, is that they go in with the aim of destroying it. Since the West have implemented sanctions and more or less dried up any technology kit transfer, it's not like Russia would suffer much for the lack of neon whereas we would. Sounds like the perfect tit-for-tat on their part.

Forget about Neon, just wait until world's Palladium's stock drying up as Russia is the top exporter, catalytic converter in cars will be stolen like crazy on the street.

Offline westfw

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Re: Neon
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2022, 06:04:27 am »
Quote
catalytic converter in cars will be stolen like crazy on the street.
this is already the case. :-(
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Neon
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2022, 07:14:13 am »
ok, this takes basically steel, air and electricity to run.

The first part, steel, heavy steel, makes businesses cry because its a big capital expense.

So if airgas cuts on the exec sports car raise bonus, and invests in heavy metal, they will be able to sell neon. It will take a while to figure out that you can make things by buying equipment in today's business world (really, who would have thought?), but I am confident someone will eventually realize it. This one is a little confusing because they might be confusing neon with hot air, which they can generate ALOT of without equipment.

Ukraine has alot of nuclear power so its economical to run those there, but you can also do this in France easily.
 


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