Author Topic: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)  (Read 11732 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2020, 12:10:40 am »
Sadly, rust is a big problem in some parts of the country, it ends up killing otherwise perfectly functional cars...

Yes rust is a huge problem and I want to scream whenever it (rarely) snows around here and someone inevitably starts moaning that they need to salt the roads. Finally in recent years they relented and did start salting some roads, thankfully I can now take the bus to work as I refuse to drive in salt. I think people have absolutely no idea how badly salt destroys their cars, easily causing billions of dollars in damage a year. On top of that it causes further billions in damage to infrastructure, I visited Chicago recently and was shocked to see so many newish cars with gaping holes rotted in the wheel arches and all the bridges, light posts and everything else was rusted and nasty.

I just don't get it, a set of good snow tires and a few plows is far cheaper than everyone buying a new car every few years. Stainless or aluminum floorpans and body panels could help a lot too, unfortunately most people are too dumb to realize that paying 50% more for a car that lasts 3 times as long is a sound investment.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2020, 12:16:02 am »
The solution to this and similar problems is both simple and impossible.  Simple in that a standardized unit used by everyone would be relatively inexpensive due to large production volume.  Repair of the unit would be possible for the same reason (big market).    But this will never happen because everyone wants unique style and features to differentiate their car from the neighbors and competitors.

What we need to save the planet, and to get from A to B,  in the way of a car. Is a simple, small/tiny modern day version of the Ford Model T, 'any colour you like, as long as it's black'.
E.g. Like the original UK Mini, a getting from A to B car, with nothing extra. Modernised, of course, not like the old one in the picture.



Rather than what some people really get, such as ...



The cost to the planet, between just what we would need to get from A to B, and these huge, vehicles, is just plain crazy!

« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 12:34:34 am by MK14 »
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2020, 12:17:25 am »
Perhaps the idea is not something the Chinese would accept but these are everywhere in the UK and the very idea of throwing away a perfectly reusable Li-Ion cell and DC-DC converter, with all the plastic casing components after just two hours of use just disgusts me.

It seems like much could be accomplished by banning this sort of utterly stupid stuff that nobody really needs vs so much banning and regulating of things that have a larger impact on people. I can think of no reason that something like a disposable charger should exist, a reusable charger that uses disposable alkaline or zinc chloride batteries would be bad enough. Actually as someone who has bought disposable batteries of any sort maybe 3 or 4 times in the last decade I'm a bit surprised there hasn't been a push to eliminate them or tax them heavily to discourage their use. Modern NiMH and Li-ion batteries are very good and there are very few applications for which they are not suitable but the typical consumer is incapable of looking at the big picture and only sees the higher up front cost. Once you own a charger and have an ecosystem of NiMH cells in the house it becomes a total non-issue, you've always got fresh batteries on hand.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2020, 12:21:43 am »
What we need to save the planet, and to get from A to B, in the way of a car. Is a simple, small/tiny modern day version of the Ford Model T, 'any colour you like, as long as it's black'.
E.g. Like the original UK Mini, a getting from A to B car, with nothing extra.

Rather than what some people really get, such as ...

The biggest problem that I see is that I (and probably most people) would be terrified to drive around in a tiny deathtrap like that in a sea of gigantic penis-compensating trucks and SUVs. I would be happy to see cars in general shift toward smaller and lighter weight, but it needs to be a widespread shift. Right now even driving my Volvo which was a very large car by European standards when it was built, I can't see around all these tall crossover SUVs everyone has and even things like the drive through mail drop at the post office has recently been raised up to where I can barely reach it without getting out of my car. I'll be glad when that fad ends.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2020, 12:30:24 am »
The biggest problem that I see is that I (and probably most people) would be terrified to drive around in a tiny deathtrap like that in a sea of gigantic penis-compensating trucks and SUVs. I would be happy to see cars in general shift toward smaller and lighter weight, but it needs to be a widespread shift. Right now even driving my Volvo which was a very large car by European standards when it was built, I can't see around all these tall crossover SUVs everyone has and even things like the drive through mail drop at the post office has recently been raised up to where I can barely reach it without getting out of my car. I'll be glad when that fad ends.

Which makes it a viscous circle.
'I'll fix my behaviour, as soon as everyone else fixes their's first'.

So maybe unappetising legislation, will get us out of this viscous circle. But that could take a lot longer, than the planet takes, for mother nature, to reek her revenge.

We are already seeing terrible weather round the world at times, e.g. Bad flooding in the UK, Out of control forest fires in Australia, Ice caps melting, etc.
I wonder if the Corona Virus, has got any connection to what we are doing to the planet. Maybe overpopulation and too much international flying, are factors.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 12:32:14 am by MK14 »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2020, 01:13:07 am »
Well I'm already driving a modest (by modern standards) car and I personally average about 50 miles a month these days since I commute by bus so I'm hardly the problem. It's possible that smaller/lower cars will come back into style at some point, it has happened before.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2020, 01:28:07 am »
Well I'm already driving a modest (by modern standards) car and I personally average about 50 miles a month these days since I commute by bus so I'm hardly the problem. It's possible that smaller/lower cars will come back into style at some point, it has happened before.

Desktop PC computers, use to be relatively huge, in big tower cases.

But (fortunately), massive big Tower PCs are getting rarer and rarer these days, replaced by ever smaller formats, such as tablets, laptops, and various types of mini or size reduced PCs.

When/if we go to (or are forced to) have all electric vehicles. Those will favour small versions (but big enough to have room for batteries with reasonable capabilities), to give the best ranges, speed (less drag), performance (less weight) and reduce costs. Although, Tesla, have already showcased a massive 'Truck' like, version of their new or upcoming offerings. So, maybe not,
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 01:34:30 am by MK14 »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2020, 01:36:55 am »
I don't know why it's fortunate (or matters) that tower PCs are getting rarer, I still find it hard to beat a traditional tower if one needs a powerful and easily expandable machine, though obviously with components shrinking these don't have to be as massive as they used to be.

Cars are a bit different though, to a point the physical size of a car is dictated by the stuff you want to fit inside it. For a commuter car or for a single person without a lot of stuff a very small car is probably fine. Many of us need something a tad larger, I don't need or want a gigantic SUV but I love my station wagon and I utilize it very frequently for transporting large objects, camping gear, materials and supplies, etc. My little brother has a Fiat Abarth which is a great little car but since he has gotten more heavily into photography he's finding that he can't fit all his gear in it. Somebody with a few kids is going to need something larger than a subcompact to comfortably haul around the family, especially if the kids are into sports, band, or other common things that require some cargo space. Very, very few people need a huge SUV though, I'd love to see the return of proper station wagons, they are the perfect practical car for people like me. Loads of interior space, highly versatile, yet no larger footprint than a regular sedan. Sadly they are all but extinct.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2020, 02:45:17 am »

You can still get station wagons...  but they are taller, and are called "crossovers"!
 

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Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2020, 03:23:44 am »
I don't know why it's fortunate (or matters) that tower PCs are getting rarer, I still find it hard to beat a traditional tower if one needs a powerful and easily expandable machine, though obviously with components shrinking these don't have to be as massive as they used to be.

Fortunate, because tiny computers, should take much less resources to produce, than full sized ones.
If you want to have a 64 core monster (AMD threadripper) computer, with water cooling, multiple oversized graphics cards, many disk dirves/SSDs, and huge potential for expansion. Then, a large tower case is still the way to go. (I know even threadrippers can be achieved in small cases, if you want to go that route).

But these days, a mini sized computer can still be rather powerful, for most things, people do, 99% of the time.
I'm NOT clear, if a really tiny mini-itx computer, can be as reliable and long lasting, as the full sized desktop equivalents. But, if it achieves decent cooling, and you don't go for too high a wattage cpu (these days even 8 cores, can be rated for 65 Watts, or less), it can theoretically be done.


Cars are a bit different though, to a point the physical size of a car is dictated by the stuff you want to fit inside it. For a commuter car or for a single person without a lot of stuff a very small car is probably fine. Many of us need something a tad larger, I don't need or want a gigantic SUV but I love my station wagon and I utilize it very frequently for transporting large objects, camping gear, materials and supplies, etc. My little brother has a Fiat Abarth which is a great little car but since he has gotten more heavily into photography he's finding that he can't fit all his gear in it. Somebody with a few kids is going to need something larger than a subcompact to comfortably haul around the family, especially if the kids are into sports, band, or other common things that require some cargo space. Very, very few people need a huge SUV though, I'd love to see the return of proper station wagons, they are the perfect practical car for people like me. Loads of interior space, highly versatile, yet no larger footprint than a regular sedan. Sadly they are all but extinct.

I agree. Some people, need certain capabilities, from their vehicles. But many people, seem to have giant vehicles, without any real life NEED as such, and don't even go off-road, ever (as regards what we call 4 wheel drive, in the UK or 4 X 4's). I.e. Range Rovers etc. (SUV in US terminology).

Even if you need the massive vehicle, perhaps the planet can't sustain the resources needed to create it and keep it on the road. So we need to limit, who has them.

tl;dr
Somehow, we need to keep people 'free' and choose how they go about their lives. Yet keep planet Earth running in a smooth, efficient and sustainable way.
Maybe there is a Nobel prize, for the person who can solve that problem.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 03:28:10 am by MK14 »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2020, 08:17:16 am »
I think the issue of vehicles is down to misinterpretation of the word “need”. A lot of people build a straw man around necessity to build a case for what they really just want. I don’t actually really “need” a car. It’s just a convenience that can drag me to a few places that are inconvenient to get to without one. I’m guilty too :)

As for tower PCs I have one, a 100W TDP Ryzen, and it’s an energy drinking nightmare of a machine. Unfortunately I need some grunt for what I do. But at the same time I work from home so I’m having less of an impact on the environment as far as transport goes.

We all need to look at our impact. Perhaps you don’t need a Mercedes E class to drop the kids off at school. That’s probably most of the problems around here summed up at least....
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 08:18:59 am by bd139 »
 
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Offline Psi

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2020, 11:23:05 am »
I don't see the issue with retrofit LED bulbs. I retrofitted my entire house from 2011-2013 and can count on one hand the bulbs I've replaced since then. Even the ones that have run dusk till dawn every night in my porch lights and other outside lights are still going strong. I bought quality bulbs from Philips and Cree and they have served me very well, and I didn't have to throw away all my nice fixtures. Additionally since they all use standard sockets, changing the light output, color temperature, or other characteristics is as simple as changing a bulb.

Yep, a quality LED bulb with psu should last 10 years, even up to 15 years if they design it properly and pick the correct parts.
True, the light output and color temp will change as the LED ages, but it should still work.

The primary reason you see store bought LED lamps dying within a year or two is simply planned obsolescence, they're engineered to run way to hot so they can sell the replacements. The caps and semiconductors just cannot handle the heat they're run at.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 11:27:46 am by Psi »
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2020, 01:09:40 pm »

[...]
What we need to save the planet, and to get from A to B,  in the way of a car. Is a simple, small/tiny modern day version of the Ford Model T, 'any colour you like, as long as it's black'.
E.g. Like the original UK Mini, a getting from A to B car, with nothing extra. Modernised, of course, not like the old one in the picture.
[...]

That's not what "they" want you to do...   they want you to keep paying high monthly payments on a much fancier car than you actually need, to keep the economy going!
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2020, 01:32:46 pm »
That's not what "they" want you to do...   they want you to keep paying high monthly payments on a much fancier car than you actually need, to keep the economy going!

Yes, that's true.

One of the very famous (in electronics circles) people, Bob Peace (Robert Allen Pease). Famously, always drove round in an ancient (and probably battered), old beetle car (despite being rather wealthy). I.e. He was probably immune to the 'buy an expensive flashy car' syndrome, despite being able to easily buy an expensive car.

Sadly, with double irony, when he drove to the funeral (technically speaking, it was actually just AFTER the funeral, on the way back home) of another famous electronics gurus (Jim Williams (analog_designer) ). He crashed (some said his old beetle would not be safe in an accident). Unfortunately they were right, and he went to the same place the magic smoke goes, when electronic components reach an untimely death, through massive overload.

People do seem to buy/get flashy/excessive cars, due to some psychological effect. Paying excessive amounts of money.

Yet with other things. E.g. LED lights, they are happy to buy a 'get 2 for a $1 pack'. Then, complain when it doesn't last the 35,000+ hours it says on the pack.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 01:44:35 pm by MK14 »
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2020, 05:28:32 pm »
Yep, a quality LED bulb with psu should last 10 years, even up to 15 years if they design it properly and pick the correct parts.
True, the light output and color temp will change as the LED ages, but it should still work.

The primary reason you see store bought LED lamps dying within a year or two is simply planned obsolescence, they're engineered to run way to hot so they can sell the replacements. The caps and semiconductors just cannot handle the heat they're run at.

I have not observed a change in light output or color temperature so far. I recently pulled the Philips 8W remote phosphor bulb that I installed in 2011 out of my front porch light and lit it up right next to a NOS one that I never installed, they were indistinguishable. The porch light runs every night from dusk till dawn so after 9 years it has quite a few hours on it.

I don't think it's planned obsolescence, it's cost engineering. I paid over $30 *each* for the Philips bulbs, part of that is I was an early adopter trying to support a product I believed in and wanted to succeed, but beyond just being new they were also very well engineered and made to last a long time. Now you can get LED bulbs for a few dollars or less, some of that his due to high volume production and improved technology, but much is also from cutting corners to cut the cost down to the bare minimum. You can't buy the cheapest of the cheap crap and then expect it to last.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 05:35:54 pm by james_s »
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2020, 05:45:21 pm »
Fortunate, because tiny computers, should take much less resources to produce, than full sized ones.
If you want to have a 64 core monster (AMD threadripper) computer, with water cooling, multiple oversized graphics cards, many disk dirves/SSDs, and huge potential for expansion. Then, a large tower case is still the way to go. (I know even threadrippers can be achieved in small cases, if you want to go that route).


I'm not so sure that it's significant. Large tower computers are filled mostly with air, and much of the other mass is cheap and easily recycled steel and other metals. The modern super compact PCs have a large portion of their volume consumed by PCBs and silicon, and I suspect the difference in total volume of material that is not easily recycled is minimal. Another factor worth considering, when PCs were still being upgraded regularly I would often replace only some of the components, I kept the same tower case for more than a decade. The mini PCs are far more proprietary, they are essentially disposable, when one breaks you throw the whole thing out.
 
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Offline OwO

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2020, 05:45:52 pm »
Bulbs over 8 watts run too hot, and with the typical light output of 8W bulbs it would take 12 bulbs to cover the living room, so it gets expensive real fast (if you can even find fixtures that large). If they last 10 years on average, that's still one bulb replacement per year. I really prefer the big rectangular ceiling lights with huge surface area and using LED strips; it's less painful to look at too.
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Offline james_s

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2020, 05:52:29 pm »

You can still get station wagons...  but they are taller, and are called "crossovers"!

A crossover is no more a station wagon than a spork is a spoon. A crossover is a one size fits all compromise, it looks vaguely like an SUV, vaguely like a station wagon, vaguely like a hatchback, vaguely like a minivan, etc but it is none of these things. They are somehow taller without offering any more ground clearance or interior volume, I don't even know where all the space goes. I find them all hideously ugly and could never bring myself to own one. I have hauled a sofa in the back of my Volvo 740 that would not fit in my friend's Toyota crossover, and I have hauled plywood and lumber using a clamp on roof rack, the car is low enough that I can easily load and unload without needing to stand on a ladder. The boxy shape is ideal for maximizing internal volume vs external footprint, there's a reason that boxes are box-shaped.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2020, 05:56:17 pm »
Bulbs over 8 watts run too hot, and with the typical light output of 8W bulbs it would take 12 bulbs to cover the living room, so it gets expensive real fast (if you can even find fixtures that large). If they last 10 years on average, that's still one bulb replacement per year. I really prefer the big rectangular ceiling lights with huge surface area and using LED strips; it's less painful to look at too.

I have lots of 12.5W Philips bulbs, those are all at least 8 years old now and I haven't had any of them fail yet. The big rectangular fixtures make sense in some circumstances but they wouldn't look right in my house.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2020, 12:09:14 am »
Yet with other things. E.g. LED lights, they are happy to buy a 'get 2 for a $1 pack'. Then, complain when it doesn't last the 35,000+ hours it says on the pack.

Some 3.5W teeny tiny ones in China, right from an electronics market (i.e. not with distributors' margin) are ~$1. My parents' house has 21 of them installed 3 years ago, and so far they are all working fine.

If you expect something like a larger 11W unit for $0.5, in a country outside China, from a retail store, then you know what you are getting.

That makes sense. LEDs have been dropping in price a lot, over the years.
Maybe my example was not the best.

A better example, could have been a $0.10 screwdriver. These typically, bend the shaft with the slightest load, and the tip bends/breaks, with the slightest resistance from a screw. Then the handle falls off.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2020, 12:15:16 am »

You can still get station wagons...  but they are taller, and are called "crossovers"!

A crossover is no more a station wagon than a spork is a spoon. A crossover is a one size fits all compromise, it looks vaguely like an SUV, vaguely like a station wagon, vaguely like a hatchback, vaguely like a minivan, etc but it is none of these things. They are somehow taller without offering any more ground clearance or interior volume, I don't even know where all the space goes. I find them all hideously ugly and could never bring myself to own one. I have hauled a sofa in the back of my Volvo 740 that would not fit in my friend's Toyota crossover, and I have hauled plywood and lumber using a clamp on roof rack, the car is low enough that I can easily load and unload without needing to stand on a ladder. The boxy shape is ideal for maximizing internal volume vs external footprint, there's a reason that boxes are box-shaped.

The Honda Odyssey is a pretty good load carrier, they have an amazing 4' by 8' cargo area when the seats are out...
 

Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2020, 12:32:18 am »
I'm not so sure that it's significant. Large tower computers are filled mostly with air, and much of the other mass is cheap and easily recycled steel and other metals. The modern super compact PCs have a large portion of their volume consumed by PCBs and silicon, and I suspect the difference in total volume of material that is not easily recycled is minimal. Another factor worth considering, when PCs were still being upgraded regularly I would often replace only some of the components, I kept the same tower case for more than a decade. The mini PCs are far more proprietary, they are essentially disposable, when one breaks you throw the whole thing out.

I agree mini PCs, are unsuitable for much upgrading (future proofing), beyond some RAM and/or SSD upgrades.
They seem a lot lighter, which makes me think they use less materials, but you have raised some good points, about the extra recyclability of desktops.

They also tend to use a lot less electricity, compared to their older, desktop cousins. Which is another way, they can be saving the planet.

But I agree, they not only are somewhat disposable. But may be replaced, rather than repaired or upgraded, a lot sooner than desktop PCs. Further complicating their recycling green credentials.

I guess this discussion/thread, shows how difficult it is. To know the best way of saving the planet.
 

Online tooki

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2020, 02:56:56 pm »
For example, not too long ago, the phone in my pocket had a sliding battery cover which was trivial to remove. The battery was clipped into place and could be easily swapped out with no technical skill whatsoever. Nowadays almost every phone on the market has an integral battery which cannot be replaced without special tools and a risk of permanent damage to the phone - and there's no good reason for them to be made that way.
There are three I can think of right off the bat:

One, which frankly isn't relevant to most people, but is critical to some*, is size and weight: a battery compartment adds thickness and weight, since another layer of separation must be provided between the user-facing battery compartment and the innards.

Second, watertightness. It is exceedingly difficult to make a watertight battery compartment. (Even more so if it needs to be thin and light.) It's vastly easier to seal the entire device. A strong argument can be made that by making phones watertight, you prevent a ton of e-waste, on account of all the prevented device drownings.

Third, battery safety. With modern battery energy densities, battery failure can be catastrophic. By sealing the batteries inside, manufacturers dramatically reduce the chance that an aftermarket battery of unknown quality is installed. Additionally, and arguably more importantly, it completely eliminates the chance of somebody carrying spare batteries with them in an unsafe manner. Now, I'm not insinuating that most aftermarket batteries are unsafe, or that most people who'd carry a spare battery would go up in flames. But it's also absolutely guaranteed that it would increase the number of incidents. Both from a public safety standpoint as well as from a corporate liability standpoint, I completely understand why companies have moved to sealed-in batteries.


*More with laptops than phones, but if someone has a physical limitation that makes weight an issue, the added weight of a thicker, more serviceable laptop might be prohibitive.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2020, 03:38:43 pm »
My phone+case is already between 2 and 3 times as thick as the phone itself; thinness as a figure of merit has become silly. An extra mm or two to accommodate the thickness of a battery cover would be perfectly fine with me, I don't think I'd even notice.

The number of early deaths due to water ingress through the battery compartment would have to be weighed against the number saved by being (easily) opened and dried straight away. If you can't make a phone competely water tight - and most aren't - the next best thing you can do is make it trivial to remove the battery, open the case, and dry out the PCB immediately. This is something that's possible with a product designed for serviceability, but if your laptop or phone is glued together, forget it.

I don't doubt that manufacturers would cry "safety" if compelled to make batteries removable, but that's a reason to come up with a safer form factor for the battery, not to continue designing in obsolescence. If batteries for laptops and power tools can have embedded contacts that are protected from accidental contact, so can phones.


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