Author Topic: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)  (Read 15318 times)

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Offline unknownparticle

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #75 on: March 14, 2020, 04:02:38 pm »


People do seem to buy/get flashy/excessive cars, due to some psychological effect. Paying excessive amounts of money.



The car thing is easy to explain. Main reason is PCH plans. People can buy (borrow actually) cars that with conventional purchasing methods they could not afford.  So, to anethiatise themselves against their otherwise pointless, trivial lives, they fall for all the 'lifestyle' guff from car manufacturers and buy a Merc, or Audi, or BMW etc and wallow in all the false status. Like that even matters, especially when they park the shiny expensive toy outside some grotty terrace in nowheresville.  Then the main thing they use it for is sitting in traffic jams commuting to their souless jobs in a call center, or some other brain dead, no skill job.  Same applies to all the other pointless trinkets they are brainwashed into thinking life cannot be complete without, like the latest Apple whatever BS product, or Dyson £400 hairdryer, etc, etc.

Rant over, now where is that latest Fluke catalogue :o
DC coupling is the devils work!!
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #76 on: March 14, 2020, 06:23:23 pm »


People do seem to buy/get flashy/excessive cars, due to some psychological effect. Paying excessive amounts of money.



The car thing is easy to explain. Main reason is PCH plans. People can buy (borrow actually) cars that with conventional purchasing methods they could not afford.  So, to anethiatise themselves against their otherwise pointless, trivial lives, they fall for all the 'lifestyle' guff from car manufacturers and buy a Merc, or Audi, or BMW etc and wallow in all the false status. Like that even matters, especially when they park the shiny expensive toy outside some grotty terrace in nowheresville.  Then the main thing they use it for is sitting in traffic jams commuting to their souless jobs in a call center, or some other brain dead, no skill job.  Same applies to all the other pointless trinkets they are brainwashed into thinking life cannot be complete without, like the latest Apple whatever BS product, or Dyson £400 hairdryer, etc, etc.

Rant over, now where is that latest Fluke catalogue :o

Of course, that makes lots of sense. You are reminding me of many things, where this 'psychological' effect, is exploited by marketing teams.

I'm happy with a mobile phone, that meets my needs. If that is a non-Apple £50 .. £400 phone, then that's fine for me.
But, others, such as Apple buyers, are apparently happy to pay double or more for the same phone (functionality wise).
How on earth it has got to £1,000 (just looked it up, they can now be £1,499 for an Apple phone, 'Apple iPhone 11 Pro Max, iOS, 6.5", 4G LTE, SIM Free, 512GB, Silver £1,499.00' John Lewis Website) just for a phone, I'm a bit out of touch.

So it reminds me of a long time ago (few decades), when you could get decent jeans for relatively little money. Yet many would insist on paying considerably more for genuine 'Wrangler' or 'Levis' jeans (I may have got the makes wrong).
Somehow there were many Jean fanboys of that era, who insisted that they were better, than the non-famously branded ones.

tl;dr
Basic needs such as food/air/water/shelter (truth) vs claimed needs (probably wants really) such as oversized SUV/pickup trucks (what marketing companies want you to buy).

I was going to jokingly mention that marketing wants you to buy the latest Apple iCar, only to discover, it may actually exist for real (rumour). https://www.macworld.co.uk/news/apple/apple-car-3425394/
 

Offline bd139

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #77 on: March 14, 2020, 06:47:49 pm »
£1500 is too much for me. That's unnecessary. However less is fine.

When AppleCare runs out on mine I will shift it and buy a new one. I pay ~ £1000 for a phone every 2 years. At the moment I'd buy a 128gb iPhone 11 if I needed one for £929 including apple care. But honestly I actually extract the entire value from it. I spent 4-5 hours a day on the phone, run my entire business from it, run my entire life off the thing, run my entire job off the thing, use it as an entertainment device when I'm stuck away from home, use it for navigation in the car and when I'm hill walking, use it as a payment device, do my financial spreadsheets on it, do my banking on it, manage my eating, communicate with my family and probably use it for music 7 hours a day. When it's done I still get at least £250 back when I sell it. If I break it I can get it replaced the same day for a minimum premium.

All that for a quid a day is a fucking bargain!

Issue is MOSTLY people who tend to buy a £1500 phone and use it for whatsapp.

Tesla is a subscription car ;)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 06:51:58 pm by bd139 »
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #78 on: March 14, 2020, 07:06:00 pm »
I can see your point about the Apple iPhone, it makes a lot of sense.

On the other hand, leaving out a microSD card slot(s), is almost certainly a marketing ploy (in many peoples opinions). To get people to get the higher flash capacity ones, at a much higher price.

Is a top of the range, £500 (or whatever the price is these days), Samsung (or whatever the best non-Apple phone is), really that bad ?
I think the google phone is suppose to be good or reasonable as well, and at half the price (if I remember correctly).

But anyway, if you are hugely using your phone most of the time, and it is important for your life/work/family etc. Then you might as well choose your favourite tool, even if it is more expensive.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 07:09:03 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #79 on: March 14, 2020, 07:16:09 pm »
I really don't like things with microSD cards in myself. I spent years arguing with Android and windows phone handsets which had slow access, weird integration problems and general unreliability when using expansion cards. One of these events ate all of the content of my youngest's first birthday which was an unforgivable failure in my eyes. The storage in iOS is very well integrated and transparent to operation. One less thing to worry about. I look at my XR and I've used 36Gb of storage at the moment including cached netflix episodes which isn't a whole lot out of a 128Gb handset.

The issue with non iOS devices is that the companies I work for are financial sector mostly and after years of problems with Android device management, malware and security issues, they are mostly "iOS only". So you have to meet them there to integrate. Also on top of that you're paying for the support and repair network with Apple which is far better than Samsung and Google etc who use independent generic repairer networks. Motorola was the worst experience I had on that front where my Moto developed an SD card fault (yeah that again). When I sent it in for repair in warranty it disappeared for two weeks. It came back with a £205 ransom for repair which was complete system board replacement because it was water damaged. The handset was waterproof. I suspect they had, and this was confirmed by various on line experiences, that they didn't want to repair it and they damaged it themselves.

A £1000 iOS device is a £500-ish phone as well. But you're paying £229 extra for less hassle (integrated high speed storage, better integration, better quality control, much better longevity) and £179 (applecare) on top of that for premium service and support. And I don't mind that.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 07:19:03 pm by bd139 »
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #80 on: March 14, 2020, 07:27:08 pm »
I really don't like things with microSD cards in myself.
....cut short...
A £1000 iOS device is a £500-ish phone as well. But you're paying £229 extra for less hassle (integrated high speed storage, better integration, better quality control, much better longevity) and £179 (applecare) on top of that for premium service and support. And I don't mind that.

That makes a lot of sense, you are convincing me!
But £1,000 is still a powerful enough deterrent, that I won't be getting one, for real, at least not now.
I'd better padlock my wallet, before reading your next post (joke).

It's a bit like the £3.75 no-name branded simple multimeter, versus a £475 Fluke multimeter.
If you are into electronics and use multimeters a lot, the Fluke makes a lot of sense, and is probably well worthwhile.
But if you only want to check if a PP3 9V is still around 9V, once or twice per year. The £3.75 (cheap) multimeter, as long as you DON'T use it for mains voltage work. May be the ideal solution.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 07:31:19 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2020, 07:32:56 pm »
Haha yes. Exactly that. It's more a Brymen versus a Fluke TBH. The Brymen has an irritating as shit backlight but it does the job  :-DD

On the purchase side of things, I save up for a new one which is a rarity these days. When this phone is EOL I will buy the new one in cash.

I am trying to persuade myself not to buy a Fluke 117 at the moment as a "second" DMM  :-DD
 
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Offline unknownparticle

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #82 on: March 14, 2020, 07:33:50 pm »
My 3 year old Nokia 5 does everything I need and more, and it was £110 on a special deal when I bought it.  Actually, it is my first 'smart' phone! 
It may be a generation thing but almost everything seems ridiculously expensive these days.  One of my other interests is motocycles and prices for those now are insane!  I just refuse to spend £20K plus for a bike!!  Especially when the cliff edge depreciation is taken into account.  I let the fools with credit cards take all the damage then buy something 5 or more years old.  I bought my first newish bike in years 2 years ago, a 2005 MV Agusta 750 Brutale, it's utterly mint, even by my OCD standards, less than 5k miles when I bought it, one owner, almost new tyres, full history, all the docs and keys. £4500.  It was £15K new.  It's AFAF and looks superb, a real joy to ride and even better in the knowledge that I own it outright and didn't murder my finances to buy it.  The latest version is £30K plus!!!!!
DC coupling is the devils work!!
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #83 on: March 14, 2020, 07:52:46 pm »
My 3 year old Nokia 5 does everything I need and more, and it was £110 on a special deal when I bought it.  Actually, it is my first 'smart' phone! 
It may be a generation thing but almost everything seems ridiculously expensive these days.  One of my other interests is motocycles and prices for those now are insane!  I just refuse to spend £20K plus for a bike!!  Especially when the cliff edge depreciation is taken into account.  I let the fools with credit cards take all the damage then buy something 5 or more years old.  I bought my first newish bike in years 2 years ago, a 2005 MV Agusta 750 Brutale, it's utterly mint, even by my OCD standards, less than 5k miles when I bought it, one owner, almost new tyres, full history, all the docs and keys. £4500.  It was £15K new.  It's AFAF and looks superb, a real joy to ride and even better in the knowledge that I own it outright and didn't murder my finances to buy it.  The latest version is £30K plus!!!!!

Hopefully, buying used, is helping save the planet. As it means something is well made ONCE, then passed on to others, over a long time. Rather than everyone, buying their own, brand new ones, then binning it, after only a few years.
Because lab (electronics) test equipment, is usually designed to last a long time, be repairable and of heavy duty, robust construction. They can make excellent, used purchases.
Like with the big price savings you made, when buying the bike(s). Used for some things, can be really good.

The decreasing quality and longevity levels, of many modern day goods/items. Is probably making them poor value USED, as well. I.e. most/all of their useful life is used up already.   :(
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 07:55:59 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #84 on: March 14, 2020, 08:00:13 pm »
Very true. Incidentally and combining two things, I buy my kids refurb phones from giffgaff: https://www.giffgaff.com/mobile-phones/refurbished/apple

I haven't had any that aren't distinguishable from new yet! They don't get new ones because they can afford to do with the spare Nokia 5 (another topic merged!) for a few days  :-DD

Most of my test gear until recently was as old as me :)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 08:01:49 pm by bd139 »
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #85 on: March 14, 2020, 08:31:26 pm »
Very true. Incidentally and combining two things, I buy my kids refurb phones from giffgaff: https://www.giffgaff.com/mobile-phones/refurbished/apple

I haven't had any that aren't distinguishable from new yet! They don't get new ones because they can afford to do with the spare Nokia 5 (another topic merged!) for a few days  :-DD

Most of my test gear until recently was as old as me :)

I have at times, used Apple products. IOS does seem to be easier, more straight forward to use and more polished and nicer, than Android, in my experience.
Android programs tend (in my experience), to be cheaper or even free, on Android. But again, that is not a deal breaker.
If any of my test equipment, was older than me, it would take too long to reach steam pressure. Look nice (the Victorians were good at that), I'd need to keep a horse to power it. The springs would need winding, before using it. It would have 'valves' that need replacing (NO, not that kind of valve, the much older, mechanical ones).
Also, by now, the Leyden Jar capacitors, would need refilling with liquid.

EDIT: Obviously I'm joking about my age.  EDIT2: Revised, and made shorter, more summarised.


« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 09:02:54 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline unknownparticle

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #86 on: March 14, 2020, 09:10:39 pm »
Even test equipment suffers the modern blight though.  If you look inside stuff from the 60's, 70's and even the 80's, the quality of construction, components and cabinet engineering is superb. Now it's all plastic click assembly and self tapping screw crap.  Even high end gear now doesn't even approach that of the past for quality.  Obviously functionality far exceeds anything from the classic era, but the new stuff has no substance.  I get a sense of satisfaction when I'm tinkering with old valve stuff using an Avo,  using even a Fluke on anything modern isn't the same.
DC coupling is the devils work!!
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #87 on: March 14, 2020, 09:14:28 pm »
PCs last longer than they ever used to because it's no longer necessary to upgrade every two years, to run the latest software, like it was 20 years ago. Even though upgrading didn't necessarily mean having to replace the entire computer, most people companies did back then.

Cars might not be as repairable as they used to be but they now do more miles than they used to before completely breaking down, so I don't think it's as much of an issue as some people think. Newer cars are also more efficient, than older ones, so there comes a point when it's more environmentally friendly to replace the car, rather than keep it running.

In the long run I think people should get used to using their cars less. New housing estates could be built with the car parks in land nearby. No garages, drives and no on street parking permitted. I don't see anything unreasonable about people having to walk the first and last half mile or so of the journey. It would definitely cut obesity rates and increase the health of the population, as well as being good for the environment.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #88 on: March 14, 2020, 09:29:14 pm »
Even test equipment suffers the modern blight though.  If you look inside stuff from the 60's, 70's and even the 80's, the quality of construction, components and cabinet engineering is superb. Now it's all plastic click assembly and self tapping screw crap.  Even high end gear now doesn't even approach that of the past for quality.  Obviously functionality far exceeds anything from the classic era, but the new stuff has no substance.  I get a sense of satisfaction when I'm tinkering with old valve stuff using an Avo,  using even a Fluke on anything modern isn't the same.

You're right, I agree. But there are all sorts of complicated trends, some of which maybe, are actually good.

Because surface mount parts can be ridiculously tiny, I suspect that also means they use very little raw material (and energy to make them hopefully), which is good for the planet. And less stuff/bulk/weight to need recycling or ending up in landfill.
Also, the modern methods of construction, can help stuff work at very high frequencies and have little input capacitance.

E.g. If you consider a modern 1 GHz bandwidth oscilloscope. Then design it to be made like something from the 1960s/70s. Lots of separate PCBs, large over-sized through hole components. Assembled fully with screws, and individual (replaceable/repairable) sections. It could get very difficult to achieve the 1 GHz, considerably more expensive, and possibly use much more power from the mains.
tl;dr
Not all the modern trends, are necessarily bad things.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 09:31:23 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #89 on: March 14, 2020, 09:43:46 pm »
PCs last longer than they ever used to because it's no longer necessary to upgrade every two years, to run the latest software, like it was 20 years ago. Even though upgrading didn't necessarily mean having to replace the entire computer, most people companies did back then.

Cars might not be as repairable as they used to be but they now do more miles than they used to before completely breaking down, so I don't think it's as much of an issue as some people think. Newer cars are also more efficient, than older ones, so there comes a point when it's more environmentally friendly to replace the car, rather than keep it running.

That's true. In the hay days of the PC revolution, many of us were upgrading or replacing our computers. Every 6, 12 months or more. If you didn't keep up, the next new windows would come out.
E.g. Windows 3.1, Windows 98, Windows XP etc.

You basically had to upgrade/replace your PC, or the latest new windows version, would either refuse or be unable to work on your 'old', bought 2 years ago machine. Or would work, but so slowly, you'd feel the need to upgrade, every time you used it.
The trend in some games, also seemed to need ever more powerful PCs and especially graphics cards. For quite a long time.


In the long run I think people should get used to using their cars less. New housing estates could be built with the car parks in land nearby. No garages, drives and no on street parking permitted. I don't see anything unreasonable about people having to walk the first and last half mile or so of the journey. It would definitely cut obesity rates and increase the health of the population, as well as being good for the environment.

That sounds like a house that I'd immediately cross off my shortlist, of homes to live in, very quickly.
Although when/if self-driving cars, becomes commonplace. I'd just get my car, to pick me up, in the nearest place to where I live. Problem solved.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Do you think everyone would be happy and choose to buy houses from your housing estate ?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 09:50:12 pm by MK14 »
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2020, 09:49:08 pm »
In the long run I think people should get used to using their cars less. New housing estates could be built with the car parks in land nearby. No garages, drives and no on street parking permitted. I don't see anything unreasonable about people having to walk the first and last half mile or so of the journey. It would definitely cut obesity rates and increase the health of the population, as well as being good for the environment.

It's half way to freezing out, blowing gusts of 40mph and horizontal rain, and you need to go shopping or you won't have dinner. Yes, let's enjoy a half a mile walk to the car and back.
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2020, 10:43:23 pm »
That sounds like a house that I'd immediately cross off my shortlist, of homes to live in, very quickly.
Although when/if self-driving cars, becomes commonplace. I'd just get my car, to pick me up, in the nearest place to where I live. Problem solved.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Do you think everyone would be happy and choose to buy houses from your housing estate ?
I agree, it wouldn't be popular, but often things which are for the general good are unpopular and if planning laws were changed, then you wouldn't have a choice.

And self driving cars becoming widely legal is pure fantasy. Even if it becomes technically possible very soon, it doesn't mean it'll happen. Driverless trains have being technically possible for 30 years or so, yet 99% of the UK rail network relies on drivers. Legislation, insurance and what people feel comfortable with are very big obstacles.

In the long run I think people should get used to using their cars less. New housing estates could be built with the car parks in land nearby. No garages, drives and no on street parking permitted. I don't see anything unreasonable about people having to walk the first and last half mile or so of the journey. It would definitely cut obesity rates and increase the health of the population, as well as being good for the environment.

It's half way to freezing out, blowing gusts of 40mph and horizontal rain, and you need to go shopping or you won't have dinner. Yes, let's enjoy a half a mile walk to the car and back.
I wouldn't bother me. I have walked three miles to work in similar weather conditions before. Just wear a nice waterproof jacket and don't be such a wimp!

And before people had cars, they had to walk a darn sight further every day to get food. It's what the human body is designed to do. People would be much healthier and even happier, in the long run, if they drove less and walked more.

There are still a few car free places around the world and they seem to get along fine. The closest one to us is Sark, which seems like a nice place to live, although I've not been there myself. I don't see why we can't experiment with car free housing estates. They'd certainly be much safer, quieter and greener.

However, I do agree with both of your points that what I'm proposing will never happen, because no government would agree to such an unpopular proposal. Indeed lots of the things in this thread regarding reduced consumption and higher prices won't be popular, even though they would be good for the planet.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2020, 11:07:00 pm »
And self driving cars becoming widely legal is pure fantasy.

When steam trains were first becoming available, some people thought they wouldn't be able to breath. if the train moves quickly.

When cars were becoming a possibility on the roads. There was some kind of law, in the UK. Whereby, a man had to walk in front of the car, carrying a red flag. To enforce the 4 MPH speed limit, and warn people, that the car was coming.

A long time ago, IBM (if I remember, correctly), said "There would only ever be a need for 4 or 5 computers, in the world".

Margaret Thatcher, while she was an MP, a long time ago. Said edit: looked it up, "No woman in my time will be prime minister or foreign secretary - not the top jobs. Anyway, I wouldn't want to be prime minister. You have to give yourself 100% to the job." 1969". She was later to become the UK's first ever, women Prime Minister.

I remember, a long time ago. Some people would say, "A computer, will never beat a human world Chess champion". In 1997, the Deep blue computer did just that Against Garry Kasparov.

You might be right. But, I won't be surprised, if they don't start appearing on roads, sooner or later.
Possibly only on high speed (at first), which exclude most other traffic, such as pedestrians and slower vehicles roads, called Motorways in the UK. (Autobahns/Interstate Highways).
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 11:11:27 pm by MK14 »
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2020, 11:09:52 pm »
It's half way to freezing out, blowing gusts of 40mph and horizontal rain, and you need to go shopping or you won't have dinner. Yes, let's enjoy a half a mile walk to the car and back.
I wouldn't bother me. I have walked three miles to work in similar weather conditions before. Just wear a nice waterproof jacket and don't be such a wimp!

Yes some of us do it for fun. I walked 10 miles last Saturday to buy some socks.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2020, 11:43:39 pm »
And self driving cars becoming widely legal is pure fantasy.

When steam trains were first becoming available, some people thought they wouldn't be able to breath. if the train moves quickly.

When cars were becoming a possibility on the roads. There was some kind of law, in the UK. Whereby, a man had to walk in front of the car, carrying a red flag. To enforce the 4 MPH speed limit, and warn people, that the car was coming.

A long time ago, IBM (if I remember, correctly), said "There would only ever be a need for 4 or 5 computers, in the world".

Margaret Thatcher, while she was an MP, a long time ago. Said edit: looked it up, "No woman in my time will be prime minister or foreign secretary - not the top jobs. Anyway, I wouldn't want to be prime minister. You have to give yourself 100% to the job." 1969". She was later to become the UK's first ever, women Prime Minister.

I remember, a long time ago. Some people would say, "A computer, will never beat a human world Chess champion". In 1997, the Deep blue computer did just that Against Garry Kasparov.

You might be right. But, I won't be surprised, if they don't start appearing on roads, sooner or later.
Possibly only on high speed (at first), which exclude most other traffic, such as pedestrians and slower vehicles roads, called Motorways in the UK. (Autobahns/Interstate Highways).
Yes, you're right. People have made all sorts or incorrect predictions about the future before and have later been proven wrong.

Most of the things you've listed above were doubted because people didn't believe they were technically possible or lacked understanding of physics. I don't doubt for a second it's possible for a computer to drive a car much safer and more efficiently than a human. The reason why I'm so cynical about driverless cars is because there are other areas where automation is much simpler, trains for example, yet it hasn't happened for various reasons, which seem irrational. Insurance and litigation are the two things which stand out at the moment. What happens when your driverless car is involved in a fatal accident which is its fault? Who goes to prison? Tesla have only gotten away with it because they say the human driver should pay attention.

Of course it might happen, but I'm doubtful it'll be in my lifetime. I wish I was wrong, because I don't like driving and think automation would make the road a safer place. The same way, I really wish they would fully automate the rail network because it would make trains much more reliable and cheaper.
It's half way to freezing out, blowing gusts of 40mph and horizontal rain, and you need to go shopping or you won't have dinner. Yes, let's enjoy a half a mile walk to the car and back.
I wouldn't bother me. I have walked three miles to work in similar weather conditions before. Just wear a nice waterproof jacket and don't be such a wimp!

Yes some of us do it for fun. I walked 10 miles last Saturday to buy some socks.

I didn't do it for fun. I broke my thumb and had to walk to work every day for most of last year. The doctor told me not to cycle or even drive a car (I don't have one but considered hiring one) until it was properly healed, which never happened. I could have got a taxi but they're extortionate and I'm perfectly capable of walking that distance.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #95 on: March 15, 2020, 12:06:39 am »
Yes, you're right. People have made all sorts or incorrect predictions about the future before and have later been proven wrong.

Most of the things you've listed above were doubted because people didn't believe they were technically possible or lacked understanding of physics. I don't doubt for a second it's possible for a computer to drive a car much safer and more efficiently than a human. The reason why I'm so cynical about driverless cars is because there are other areas where automation is much simpler, trains for example, yet it hasn't happened for various reasons, which seem irrational. Insurance and litigation are the two things which stand out at the moment. What happens when your driverless car is involved in a fatal accident which is its fault? Who goes to prison? Tesla have only gotten away with it because they say the human driver should pay attention.

Of course it might happen, but I'm doubtful it'll be in my lifetime. I wish I was wrong, because I don't like driving and think automation would make the road a safer place. The same way, I really wish they would fully automate the rail network because it would make trains much more reliable and cheaper..

Good point. But something like the railways, can get relatively slow/long time scales. Unlike general public cars, which might be changed every 3 years. The trains may only change in a big way, every 20 to 50 years (I don't know, what the time period is, exactly).
Because they spend millions, buying the new train stock. Then keep using it for 10, 20, 30, 40 or more years. until it is replaced.

I imagine, self driving cars, may start out in one small part of America. Maybe with the driver having to sit in the drivers seat and watch the precedings. If that works out. It could get rolled out in other parts of America, and other countries could start following suit.
If not the US, then another country(s).

As you said, Tesla, have already been rolling out autonomous self driving cars, sorry, I mean Tesla autopilot.

As regards making the roads safer. Although computers won't drink and drive, take drugs or speed just for the fun of it. I still think that they will still have accidents. Just that those accidents will be different.
E.g. The Tesla autopilots, have had various accidents. Because of misinterpreting things, etc.

Another example is 'self driving'/autopilot jet airplanes. Which has been going on for a long time now. Where some percentage, maybe 99% of the time. the autopilot, effectively flies the plane.
Because as you will know. We still have plenty of aircraft crashing, despite these systems.
E.g. Boeing 737max, whose autopilot mode (although there is more to it, as it was not really the autopilots fault, the MCAS system and its sensors), was not exactly safe to leave it like that, unoccupied.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 12:12:35 am by MK14 »
 
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Offline unknownparticle

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #96 on: March 15, 2020, 12:11:26 am »
Walking more and driving less is all very laudable but for many it just impractical.  I live in the countryside and it's 1.5 miles to the nearest A road, and the road to reach that point has no footpath.  It's then a further 7 miles to the nearest supermarket.  So, assuming I would be willing to risk my life on a regular basis to go food shopping (the only physical shopping I ever do now), and further assuming I could maintain a brisk walking pace, it would take me about 2 hours each way, actually more, because on the return journey I would be carrying about 10 to 15 KG of shopping!  I just don't have the time!  And don't even mention buses, there are 3 per day in my area, 1 morning, 1 mid day, 1 evening!!  And very often they are cancelled with no notice.
This is the problem with all this drive less mantra, it's fine if you live in a city, but a non starter for those that live in areas with poor infrastructure. One thing that could be done to alleviate traffic congestion would be to change school starting times so they don't conflict with work hours.
Then there is the question why?!  Climate change, the climate is always changing, nothing we can do about it. Notice it is now called climate change, not man made climate change, funny that!  Humanity is not affecting the climate in any significant way, it's all a scam.
In 50 years when the whole scamming nonsense is eventually exposed there will be alot of very angry people!
DC coupling is the devils work!!
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #97 on: March 15, 2020, 12:37:27 am »

Yes, you're right. People have made all sorts or incorrect predictions about the future before and have later been proven wrong.

Most of the things you've listed above were doubted because people didn't believe they were technically possible or lacked understanding of physics. I don't doubt for a second it's possible for a computer to drive a car much safer and more efficiently than a human. The reason why I'm so cynical about driverless cars is because there are other areas where automation is much simpler, trains for example, yet it hasn't happened for various reasons, which seem irrational. Insurance and litigation are the two things which stand out at the moment. What happens when your driverless car is involved in a fatal accident which is its fault? Who goes to prison? Tesla have only gotten away with it because they say the human driver should pay attention.

Of course it might happen, but I'm doubtful it'll be in my lifetime. I wish I was wrong, because I don't like driving and think automation would make the road a safer place. The same way, I really wish they would fully automate the rail network because it would make trains much more reliable and cheaper.


Sometimes the path to these things is tortuous.  Automated trains have taken a long time to implement for a variety of reasons.  One is the publicity associated with bad implementations.  The TRAAM system at the Dallas-Ft. Worth American Airlines terminals in the 70s-80s is a horrible example.  A simple low speed road train on a completely closed track (no pedestrian crossings, vehicles, or any similar hazards).  And the control system was horrid.  Jerky.  Prone to stopping or speeding up for unfathomable reasons.  And with some weird half-interval approach to the stations.  Who would want more of that?

But recently legal issues are pushing more automation in trains.  Accidents which have at their source the operator paying attention to the cell phone or under the influence of drugs have resulted in trials where the question is asked "Are automated systems available?". "Well, yes."   Followed by: "Could they have prevented this accident? and Why weren't they installed or in use?".    Liability is resulting from the lack of automation.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #98 on: March 15, 2020, 01:02:44 am »

Yes, you're right. People have made all sorts or incorrect predictions about the future before and have later been proven wrong.

Most of the things you've listed above were doubted because people didn't believe they were technically possible or lacked understanding of physics. I don't doubt for a second it's possible for a computer to drive a car much safer and more efficiently than a human. The reason why I'm so cynical about driverless cars is because there are other areas where automation is much simpler, trains for example, yet it hasn't happened for various reasons, which seem irrational. Insurance and litigation are the two things which stand out at the moment. What happens when your driverless car is involved in a fatal accident which is its fault? Who goes to prison? Tesla have only gotten away with it because they say the human driver should pay attention.

Of course it might happen, but I'm doubtful it'll be in my lifetime. I wish I was wrong, because I don't like driving and think automation would make the road a safer place. The same way, I really wish they would fully automate the rail network because it would make trains much more reliable and cheaper.


Sometimes the path to these things is tortuous.  Automated trains have taken a long time to implement for a variety of reasons.  One is the publicity associated with bad implementations.  The TRAAM system at the Dallas-Ft. Worth American Airlines terminals in the 70s-80s is a horrible example.  A simple low speed road train on a completely closed track (no pedestrian crossings, vehicles, or any similar hazards).  And the control system was horrid.  Jerky.  Prone to stopping or speeding up for unfathomable reasons.  And with some weird half-interval approach to the stations.  Who would want more of that?

But recently legal issues are pushing more automation in trains.  Accidents which have at their source the operator paying attention to the cell phone or under the influence of drugs have resulted in trials where the question is asked "Are automated systems available?". "Well, yes."   Followed by: "Could they have prevented this accident? and Why weren't they installed or in use?".    Liability is resulting from the lack of automation.

Copenhagen has a completely automated train system (Metro).  Works very well.
 

Offline TomS_

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Re: New UK plan "could spell end of throwaway culture" (BBC News)
« Reply #99 on: March 15, 2020, 07:20:35 am »
E.g. Rules insisting on having tyre pressure monitoring in cars, means each tyre sensor has a battery (4, one for each wheel), which can cost a small fortune, to get replaced, every e.g. 5 years.

Tyre pressure monitoring doesnt have to be done with active sensors in the wheels. It can also be done using existing sensors such as those used for ABS, although I have seen it done with some little doodad boxes that mount somewhere around the wheels.
 
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