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Dilbert loses newspapers, publishers, distributor, and possibly its website

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tooki:

--- Quote from: james_s on March 10, 2023, 12:53:20 am ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 10, 2023, 12:13:20 am ---I told you that if you have an interesting discussion with say a professor about these things in a cafeteria, and one of the students overhears part of it (or even the fact that you are discussing it in the first place), they are likely to attack you verbally, either directly or more likely behind your back, within the student body social media, "labeling" you and tarnishing your reputation.  For example, they may actively object to you participating in a project because of such labeling.
If the vicarious offense-taker happens to be one of the activist students, they may attack you physically.  They certainly believe it is their right to do so.

--- End quote ---

That's the biggest problem with all this, you can't even ask a question, questioning the prevailing narrative is seen as an attack on it and you are immediately branded phobic, hateful, etc. It is absolutely imperative that we are able to have an open discussion, that one is allowed to disagree or present an alternate point of view. You will never change a person's mind by force, all you will succeed in doing is teaching them to keep their view to themselves while quietly digging in their heals. It's almost impossible to even find a place anymore where you can discuss anything controversial without being shut down or getting dogpiled and branded as some kind of monster.

--- End quote ---
Nobody has an issue with people asking questions. The problem is that they don’t actually listen to the answer. I mean, yes, they perceive that an answer was given, but if it disagrees with their extant opinion, then they disregard it and attack or vilify the respondent. What we need is for people to ask questions and really listen to the answer, to try and actually understand the other position.

What I see instead is not questions, but simple accusations. Back and forth.

JohanH:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 10, 2023, 12:13:20 am --- not equality of outcome through "positive" discrimination.

--- End quote ---

Here I strongly disagree. "Positive discrimination", or some kind of supportive actions, is needed in the beginning for any group in society that doesn't currently have equal rights. The mass of the majority will always by itself suppress minorities somehow, intentionally or unintentionally. How this support is done is another question. There will be individuals in the minority groups that will overstep (e.g. these overreactions that you talk about), but there is no need for people in the majority to feel threatened. As soon as a minority group no longer feel threatened, such incidents will diminish.

Zero999:

--- Quote from: tooki on March 10, 2023, 07:42:54 am ---
--- Quote from: james_s on March 10, 2023, 12:53:20 am ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 10, 2023, 12:13:20 am ---I told you that if you have an interesting discussion with say a professor about these things in a cafeteria, and one of the students overhears part of it (or even the fact that you are discussing it in the first place), they are likely to attack you verbally, either directly or more likely behind your back, within the student body social media, "labeling" you and tarnishing your reputation.  For example, they may actively object to you participating in a project because of such labeling.
If the vicarious offense-taker happens to be one of the activist students, they may attack you physically.  They certainly believe it is their right to do so.

--- End quote ---

That's the biggest problem with all this, you can't even ask a question, questioning the prevailing narrative is seen as an attack on it and you are immediately branded phobic, hateful, etc. It is absolutely imperative that we are able to have an open discussion, that one is allowed to disagree or present an alternate point of view. You will never change a person's mind by force, all you will succeed in doing is teaching them to keep their view to themselves while quietly digging in their heals. It's almost impossible to even find a place anymore where you can discuss anything controversial without being shut down or getting dogpiled and branded as some kind of monster.

--- End quote ---
Nobody has an issue with people asking questions. The problem is that they don’t actually listen to the answer. I mean, yes, they perceive that an answer was given, but if it disagrees with their extant opinion, then they disregard it and attack or vilify the respondent. What we need is for people to ask questions and really listen to the answer, to try and actually understand the other position.

What I see instead is not questions, but simple accusations. Back and forth.

--- End quote ---
Certain questions do invoke hostile responses and accusations of hate. They also more often than not yield logically inconsistent, or nonsensical answers. This is especially true when it comes to gender and to some extent race and religion too.

Nominal Animal:

--- Quote from: JohanH on March 10, 2023, 08:19:24 am ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 10, 2023, 12:13:20 am --- not equality of outcome through "positive" discrimination.

--- End quote ---
Here I strongly disagree. "Positive discrimination", or some kind of supportive actions, is needed in the beginning for any group in society that doesn't currently have equal rights. The mass of the majority will always by itself suppress minorities somehow, intentionally or unintentionally. How this support is done is another question. There will be individuals in the minority groups that will overstep (e.g. these overreactions that you talk about), but there is no need for people in the majority to feel threatened. As soon as a minority group no longer feel threatened, such incidents will diminish.

--- End quote ---
No, it does not work that way in real life, because humans are individuals, and not collectives or group intelligences.

What actually happens, is that individuals who lose opportunities to positive discrimination, will feel they are discriminated against.  This is not something you can train away, because it is fundamentally about fairness, which is deeper in humans than sentience (and is famously observed in many other species, especially primates and monkeys).  In essence, you just shift the discrimination into new people, you never reduce it.  In fact, you just increase the amount of discrimination experienced by individual humans.

Equality of opportunity is the only way to actually reduce the amount of discrimination.


--- Quote from: JohanH on March 10, 2023, 08:19:24 am ---The mass of the majority will always by itself suppress minorities somehow, intentionally or unintentionally.
--- End quote ---
No.  That is purely a philosophical model initially created by Hegel (as dominant-dominated analysis), then fully fleshed by Marx and Engels in the Communist Manifesto (as oppressor-oppressed model of societies).  It is purely a Marxist philosophical model, not based on real-world evidence or any kind of science.  The only research that actually supports this are ones based on self-reporting of perception of oppression, which are way less reliable than even the Rasmussen poll that lead to this thread.

This statement is one that has been repeated incessantly in Finland for the last 30 years, and only a few seem to realize it is not a fact or an understanding based on statistics, research, or science; it is just a sociopolitical/philosophical model underlying Marxist communism.

JohanH:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 10, 2023, 08:53:09 am ---
No.  That is purely a philosophical model initially created by Hegel (as dominant-dominated analysis), then fully fleshed by Marx and Engels in the Communist Manifesto (as oppressor-oppressed model of societies).  It is purely a Marxist philosophical model, not based on real-world evidence or any kind of science.  The only research that actually supports this are ones based on self-reporting of perception of oppression, which are way less reliable than even the Rasmussen poll that lead to this thread.

This statement is one that has been repeated incessantly in Finland for the last 30 years, and only a few seem to realize it is not a fact or an understanding based on statistics, research, or science; it is just a sociopolitical/philosophical model underlying Marxist communism.

--- End quote ---

I don't believe it to be that simple. In the social democratic model of the Nordic societies (and also in the EU at large) society supports different needs on different levels (not necessarily by minority boundaries). So the support isn't necessarily directly to these groups, but on other levels, based e.g. on individual needs.

I agree with you that fundamentally, there should be fairness and equal rights for humans. But people are different and how you select to give different support to different people must come from some policy. These are very big questions and how that is implemented I'm not competent to comment on, neither do I have the resources or influence to impact on it, other than on lower municipality level, where I've been involved a bit politically. Because I'm not an expert in these matters, ultimately I, like many other people, might not care in the long run, or might follow some party political line and be content with that.

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