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Dilbert loses newspapers, publishers, distributor, and possibly its website

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Zero999:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 10, 2023, 08:53:09 am ---
--- Quote from: JohanH on March 10, 2023, 08:19:24 am ---The mass of the majority will always by itself suppress minorities somehow, intentionally or unintentionally.
--- End quote ---
No.  That is purely a philosophical model initially created by Hegel (as dominant-dominated analysis), then fully fleshed by Marx and Engels in the Communist Manifesto (as oppressor-oppressed model of societies).  It is purely a Marxist philosophical model, not based on real-world evidence or any kind of science.  The only research that actually supports this are ones based on self-reporting of perception of oppression, which are way less reliable than even the Rasmussen poll that lead to this thread.

This statement is one that has been repeated incessantly in Finland for the last 30 years, and only a few seem to realize it is not a fact or an understanding based on statistics, research, or science; it is just a sociopolitical/philosophical model underlying Marxist communism.

--- End quote ---
Data from many countries such as the USA and UK show that's obviously not true. There are plenty examples of minorities who do better than the majority. Chinese and Korean Americans consistently outperform the majority, both academically and financially, yet they came to the US with nothing. In the UK Hindus do better than white British, yet again came here with nothing. The success of Jews, compared to the majority, stirred up a lot of jealousy in a certain country, leading to disastrous consequences. I can't see any good coming from Marxist policies of positive discrimination/affirmative action and ideologies such as critical race theory.

JohanH:

--- Quote from: Zero999 on March 10, 2023, 09:16:19 am ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 10, 2023, 08:53:09 am ---
--- Quote from: JohanH on March 10, 2023, 08:19:24 am ---The mass of the majority will always by itself suppress minorities somehow, intentionally or unintentionally.
--- End quote ---
No.  That is purely a philosophical model initially created by Hegel (as dominant-dominated analysis), then fully fleshed by Marx and Engels in the Communist Manifesto (as oppressor-oppressed model of societies).  It is purely a Marxist philosophical model, not based on real-world evidence or any kind of science.  The only research that actually supports this are ones based on self-reporting of perception of oppression, which are way less reliable than even the Rasmussen poll that lead to this thread.

This statement is one that has been repeated incessantly in Finland for the last 30 years, and only a few seem to realize it is not a fact or an understanding based on statistics, research, or science; it is just a sociopolitical/philosophical model underlying Marxist communism.

--- End quote ---
Data from many countries such as the USA and UK show that's obviously not true. There are plenty examples of minorities who do better than the majority. Chinese and Korean Americans consistently outperform the majority, both academically and financially, yet they came to the US with nothing. In the UK Hindus do better than white British, yet again came here with nothing. The success of Jews, compared to the majority, stirred up a lot of jealousy in a certain country, leading to disastrous consequences. I can't see any good coming from Marxist policies of positive discrimination/affirmative action and ideologies such as critical race theory.

--- End quote ---

I might be wrong in my statement. That doesn't change the fact that many minority groups are suppressed/live in worse conditions than majority/whatever. To improve their conditions, it doesn't help to show to them that on paper, they have equal rights. So society needs to do something to help them. That's not wrong in my opinion. But all of this is outside my expertise, so I'd rather not comment on it further.

coppice:

--- Quote from: Zero999 on March 10, 2023, 09:16:19 am ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 10, 2023, 08:53:09 am ---
--- Quote from: JohanH on March 10, 2023, 08:19:24 am ---The mass of the majority will always by itself suppress minorities somehow, intentionally or unintentionally.
--- End quote ---
No.  That is purely a philosophical model initially created by Hegel (as dominant-dominated analysis), then fully fleshed by Marx and Engels in the Communist Manifesto (as oppressor-oppressed model of societies).  It is purely a Marxist philosophical model, not based on real-world evidence or any kind of science.  The only research that actually supports this are ones based on self-reporting of perception of oppression, which are way less reliable than even the Rasmussen poll that lead to this thread.

This statement is one that has been repeated incessantly in Finland for the last 30 years, and only a few seem to realize it is not a fact or an understanding based on statistics, research, or science; it is just a sociopolitical/philosophical model underlying Marxist communism.

--- End quote ---
Data from many countries such as the USA and UK show that's obviously not true. There are plenty examples of minorities who do better than the majority. Chinese and Korean Americans consistently outperform the majority, both academically and financially, yet they came to the US with nothing. In the UK Hindus do better than white British, yet again came here with nothing. The success of Jews, compared to the majority, stirred up a lot of jealousy in a certain country, leading to disastrous consequences. I can't see any good coming from Marxist policies of positive discrimination/affirmative action and ideologies such as critical race theory.

--- End quote ---
In The US pretty much every immigrant group does better than the people whose families have been there for generations. Black immigrants do better on average then long term white Americans.

Nominal Animal:

--- Quote from: JohanH on March 10, 2023, 09:14:45 am ---These are very big questions and how that is implemented I'm not competent to comment on, neither do I have the resources or influence to impact on it, other than on lower municipality level, where I've been involved a bit politically.
--- End quote ---
They are big questions, and I definitely do not claim to have any answers.  I only want – no, demand! – the ability to discuss them without being labeled or punished for my current opinions.
Many of my current opinions are wrong, but because I can and want to learn, I want to find out which ones and why.
I may not be competent myself, but I refuse to leave such discussions to ideologically driven university students and activists alone.

I fully accept that whatever I discuss with someone may sour their opinion of me, and cause them to stop interacting with me.  This is acceptable, because all interaction has its risks and rewards.  (It is rare, though.  I do make an occasional blunder, especially linguistically, so I do worry a bit about that, about effects of miscommunication.)

What I do not accept, is when someone demands others to not interact with me, or else, especially if it is because of something they heard from some  another person attributed to myself.  And especially if they do so by labeling me as something I am clearly and demonstrably not.

(Obviously, I am projecting myself in Scott Adams' situation here, but that's just how I relate to other people: I imagine myself in their situation, reflecting their reactions on what I imagine (or know from experience) mine would be, and draw parallels to my own experiences.  I seek common ground, and try to build deeper understanding based on the commonalities.  I do fear I sound very self-centered, but this is just the way I've found I can effectively relate to anyone, regardless of their background or characteristics.)

tszaboo:

--- Quote from: JohanH on March 10, 2023, 09:25:53 am ---I might be wrong in my statement. That doesn't change the fact that many minority groups are suppressed/live in worse conditions than majority/whatever. To improve their conditions, it doesn't help to show to them that on paper, they have equal rights. So society needs to do something to help them. That's not wrong in my opinion. But all of this is outside my expertise, so I'd rather not comment on it further.

--- End quote ---
Why?
I'm serious, I'm asking it in the very philosophical sense, why? There will be always be people who are the last. They picked some arbitrary measure and that's the most important today. You can pick infinite different criteria, and the outcome will be different. You can pick IQ. Shall we have equal outcome for IQ? Hire board members from the bottom 5% of the distribution and force companies to do so? How about baldness? Or height? Or people with a stub toe? Or brown haired woman? People not living in the capital? How about fixing gender disparity on offshore oilrigs? Why not me, I'm from abroad, why am I not a CTO yet? Do we really want to reward someone based on their birth characteristics instead of their effort, merit and talent?
We put it into law, everyone is equal, discrimination isn't allowed. And then they flip it, and they call it progress.
I cannot wait, when 20 years from now we will be -ist, because we weren't picking some other characteristics that is the most important at that time. Or hopefully we move past woke by then. They are cancelling dead people, because they didn't follow the today's trend. There is now trigger warning placed on Shakespeare, because apparently he wasn't progressive enough. And we are burning books again. Did we learn nothing?

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