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Newton's third law problem.
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electrodacus:

--- Quote from: PlainName on November 24, 2022, 10:01:37 pm ---
--- Quote ---So are you saying that is irrelevant to know the input power available for this wind only powered vehicle ?
--- End quote ---

At this point, yes. Later we will figure out what power we need and where it comes from, but right now we don't even know what use it would be! Well, obviously, we do but you don't.

Edit: rhetorical. I have no intention of spending another 2 months battling your mental illness or whatever it is that causes you to stick in your rut.

--- End quote ---

The first thing you need to predict anything is the input wind power available to vehicle.
If there is no input wind power available then vehicle will not be able to move so there is nothing you can say or predict about.

After you know that you can look at design to figure if it has or not an energy storage device.
If it exceeds wind speed directly downwind or it drives at any speed directly upwind you know for sure energy storage is involved as else it can not work based on currently agreed laws of physics.
Then if you do the test correctly and look close enough at the data you will see that yes energy storage is involved in all of this cases.

I showed both the equations and the experimental data (for upwind variant) and both the equations and the experimental data fully agree.
IanB:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on November 24, 2022, 10:16:22 pm ---The first thing you need to predict anything is the input wind power available to vehicle.
--- End quote ---
This is not true. We don't need to know how much power is available, it is not relevant. If the vehicle has any power available at all it is able to move in any chosen direction.


--- Quote ---If there is no input wind power available then vehicle will not be able to move so there is nothing you can say or predict about.
--- End quote ---
Yes, of course. See above.


--- Quote ---After you know that you can look at design to figure if it has or not an energy storage device.
--- End quote ---
There is no reason to do this, since it is not relevant.


--- Quote ---If it exceeds wind speed directly downwind or it drives at any speed directly upwind you know for sure energy storage is involved as else it can not work based on currently agreed laws of physics.
--- End quote ---
This is not true.


--- Quote ---Then if you do the test correctly and look close enough at the data you will see that yes energy storage is involved in all of this cases.
--- End quote ---
This is not true. If the mathematical models do not include energy storage, then there cannot be any energy storage.


--- Quote ---I showed both the equations and the experimental data (for upwind variant) and both the equations and the experimental data fully agree.

--- End quote ---
You have never shown any such thing.
electrodacus:

--- Quote from: IanB on November 24, 2022, 10:42:53 pm ---This is not true.
This is not true.
This is not true.

--- End quote ---

That is all that you said  "This is not true" .  No equation or proof for any of those not true claims.
This is a physics not a math question.
As mentioned with math you can also say a locked 1:1 gear ratio can drive upwind.
IanB:

--- Quote from: electrodacus on November 24, 2022, 11:02:02 pm ---As mentioned with math you can also say a locked 1:1 gear ratio can drive upwind.

--- End quote ---

This is not true either. If you think it is true, demonstrate it.
electrodacus:

--- Quote from: IanB on November 24, 2022, 11:18:29 pm ---
This is not true either. If you think it is true, demonstrate it.

--- End quote ---

You did that yourself with your gif animation.

You had a 3:2 gear ratio
Showed a wheel traveling 3 squares and the other 2 squares while vehicle also moved one square.
I mentioned to fix one of the moving surfaces to represent the earth and your answer was

"With the fixed ground on the left the treadmill moves to the right one square. When this happens the vehicle moves two squares to the left."

I asked if you observe such a thing in reality meaning treadmill moves one square relative to ground while vehicle moves two squares also relative to ground.

I obviously got no answer from you.
In the same way you can claim that with a 1:1 gear ratio the vehicle moves 2 squares while treadmill does not move at all.
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