General > General Technical Chat
Newton's third law problem.
IanB:
Classic troll behavior. When losing the debate on the original problem, come up with some entirely different problem as a distraction, and try to argue that. And when that argument doesn't go well, keep trying to move the goalposts in order to get the conclusion desired. And than try to say that any conclusion drawn from the entirely different problem must also apply to the original problem.
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: fourfathom on November 28, 2022, 06:20:13 pm ---
Or, DDWFTTW: The cart wheels drive a generator, the generator powers a fan blowing backwards. To start, the wind pressure gives the idle fan a little push. The cart starts rolling downwind, spinning the generator which powers the fan. Take it from there. But remember the wheels rolling on the ground. For starters, assume no slip, no energy storage, no friction, no loss.
--- End quote ---
You do realize you try to describe an overunity device ? If vehicle is direct down wind aboe wind speed.
Wind pushes the vehicle so instead of leaving it at that you brake the vehicle to extract energy at the wheel than then you put in to the propeller to get at best about 70% back in to propulsion.
What happens is as you describe when vehicle starts and that is the vehicle is pushed by wind same as any sail vehicle then instead of using all that to accelerate the vehicle you take a big part of the energy at the wheel and use the propeller to create a pressure differential (basically store that energy).
So if you have 1000W available as wind power you use say only 200W to accelerate the vehicle while taking the other 800W at the wheel and due to efficiency maybe put around 500W in storage so after 1ms of this you get to store about 0.5Ws
As vehicle accelerates the amount of wind power available from wind drops but the amount provided by the stored energy increases and this allows vehicle to get to a speed well above wind speed but then after stored energy is used up it will slow down below wind speed.
I think a simple vehicle to understand that will do exactly the same thing will be:
A simple sail vehicle with an electrical generator at the wheel so when vehicle is well below wind speed you can charge a supercapacitor or a battery but a supercapacitor will be sufficient then after some seconds when you consider enough energy was stored you can accelerate direct downwind for as long as you have stored energy. So you can do a fast acceleration to say 2x the wind speed maybe in 30 seconds or you can do a very slow acceleration say over 5 minutes to same 2x wind speed but in both cases you only have enough energy to accelerate the vehicle to that peak speed as energy stored in supercapacitor is converted in vehicle kinetic energy.
And from that peak speed say 2x the wind speed it will again take a few minutes to slow down to wind speed depending on the amount of friction losses vs the amount of gained kinetic energy.
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: IanB on November 28, 2022, 06:36:10 pm ---Classic troll behavior. When losing the debate on the original problem, come up with some entirely different problem as a distraction, and try to argue that. And when that argument doesn't go well, keep trying to move the goalposts in order to get the conclusion desired. And than try to say that any conclusion drawn from the entirely different problem must also apply to the original problem.
--- End quote ---
Sorry I must have missed the part where you demonstrated that the equation for available wind power was wrong ?
If you want to say I lost the argument then you need to show proof the equation everyone is using is wrong.
So show the output from this free online calculator is not corresponding with real world experiments https://www.electromotive.eu/?page_id=12&lang=en
If you can do that I will admit to be wrong and apologize to everyone.
If not that equation alone is enough to prove that this sort of vehicle's do not work as you claim and most certainly work the way I explain and guaranteed they use energy storage.
PlainName:
--- Quote from: electrodacus on November 28, 2022, 06:39:23 pm ---
--- Quote from: fourfathom on November 28, 2022, 06:20:13 pm ---
Or, DDWFTTW: The cart wheels drive a generator, the generator powers a fan blowing backwards. To start, the wind pressure gives the idle fan a little push. The cart starts rolling downwind, spinning the generator which powers the fan. Take it from there. But remember the wheels rolling on the ground. For starters, assume no slip, no energy storage, no friction, no loss.
--- End quote ---
You do realize you try to describe an overunity device ?
--- End quote ---
Of course it isn't - there are limits to how much it works. The many practical examples should have shown that it does work, it's just that with your closed and single-track mind you'll never grasp it. Perhaps you're afraid of doing so after all the nay saying you've staked your reputation on (what little of it remains).
electrodacus:
--- Quote from: PlainName on November 28, 2022, 07:13:50 pm ---Of course it isn't - there are limits to how much it works. The many practical examples should have shown that it does work, it's just that with your closed and single-track mind you'll never grasp it. Perhaps you're afraid of doing so after all the nay saying you've staked your reputation on (what little of it remains).
--- End quote ---
There is a simple question.
What is the wind power available to a wind powered vehicle ?
My answer (and not just mine) is this https://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/DragPower.html
That equation alone is what proves "your" explanation of how this vehicle's work wrong.
All you need to do to prove me wrong is do an experiment that shows that equation is incorrect.
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