Nichicon audio capacitors

[FrankBuss]

Now not only Panasonic does it, but Nichicon, too:

http://nichicon-us.com/english/products/pdfs/e-ufg.pdf

"suited for high grade audio equipment", "Rich sound in the bass register and clearer high end"

Yeah, sure Has anyone actually measured the difference with a non-audio capacitor, or conducted a double-blind, or ABX hearing test?

[FrankBuss]

And a "product training" at Digikey for it: https://dkc1.digikey.com/DE/de/TOD/Nichicon/audio-capacitors/audio-capacitors.html

[strangersound]

Being an audio engineering/audiophile type, I never heard any claim that better quality capacitors "sound better". I can't imagine if the values are the same, anybody could tell a difference. I always thought the primary reason for good caps was reduced chance of failure and longer life. I never heard any sound quality claim until now.

"Rich sound in the bass register and clearer high end"

That does sound like bullshit, but stranger phenomena happens all the time in electrical circuits. I'd be curious to see some results of a double blind study or similar, like you noted. Considering that caps are the primary method of filtering in a circuit, maybe better caps do a better job...better output transformers make a difference, a tube is definitely different sounding from a silicon transistor, and just the layout and placement of components can change the behavior of a circuit. There's so many variables, I can at least say they probably figured they were at least safe to make the claim, since it's so into minutiae that who can tell without a research project's worth of study.

I know their marketing is bullshit, I need some data to form any conclusion.     

[Zero999]

As usual, there's a grain of truth in the audio capacitor thing but it applies to ceramic capacitors which can be piezoelectric and vary non-linear. Electrolytic capacitors are essentially transparent to audio, when used properly. For AC coupling applications, just choose one with an ESR much lower than the load's resistance and a high enough value to give a cut-off way below 20Hz.

All the hype is just marketing wank and digikey want to sell them, so they just parrot the same bollocks from the manufacturers.

[mariush]

Sigh

Apparently you haven't heard of Elna's claims.

Here's ELNA SILMIC II : https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/rfs-series/3641?mpart=RFS-25V101MH4#5&vendor=604

RFS Series
Audio Grade SILMIC Series, Radial Leaded Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors

The RFS series was developed specifically for audio applications. ELNA developed raw material for the separate paper which use a silk fibers. Therefore, this capacitor can give you high grade sound for your audio design.

Features

    Relieves the music's vibration energy
    Decreases the peak feeling sound at high compass and rough quality sound at middle compass
    Increases massive sound at low compass

[FrankBuss]

    Decreases the peak feeling sound at high compass and rough quality sound at middle compass
    Increases massive sound at low compass[/b]

So it is crap for higher frequencies and will act as a low-pass filter

[WastelandTek]

I used some when I recapped my guitar amp, they had really pretty shiny metalized wraps and didn't really cost much more...lol 

Also available in more nonpolar/bipolar values, which is nice

[retrolefty]

My question is if large traditional main stream capacitor manufactures start spouting this crap does it mean they have lost their souls? Could the intended user base be really profitable enough to stain their traditional and tremendously larger user base? Will these new 'audio caps' have datasheets showing their superiority in audio applications over their other mainstream quality products?

 

[f5r5e5d]

I measured a early Sony SACD player with Nichicon Gold Muse DC blocking caps in the R,L ch and "lessor" Nichcon in the center, suround ch - the Gold caps had more, higher distortion components visible on the LF slope

[Electro Detective]

Sigh

Apparently you haven't heard of Elna's claims.

Here's ELNA SILMIC II : https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/rfs-series/3641?mpart=RFS-25V101MH4#5&vendor=604

RFS Series
Audio Grade SILMIC Series, Radial Leaded Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors

The RFS series was developed specifically for audio applications. ELNA developed raw material for the separate paper which use a silk fibers. Therefore, this capacitor can give you high grade sound for your audio design.

Features

    Relieves the music's vibration energy
    Decreases the peak feeling sound at high compass and rough quality sound at middle compass
    Increases massive sound at low compass

Marketing BS for the next generation of cashed up audiophools, to 'relieve'  (and enhance)  credit card 'vibration energy'     

One can guess who bought out those capacitor manufacturers, the usual  'investor'  trash no doubt   

get ready for price rises on standard/average quality caps.. in sexy housings and 'love you long time' claims   

[amyk]

My question is if large traditional main stream capacitor manufactures start spouting this crap does it mean they have lost their souls? Could the intended user base be really profitable enough to stain their traditional and tremendously larger user base? Will these new 'audio caps' have datasheets showing their superiority in audio applications over their other mainstream quality products?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Gate_(capacitor)

There used to be a page on Rubycon's site with all the marketing wank, but I can't find it at the moment...

[BrianHG]

Most poor audio quality comes down to engineers not taking into consideration the ESR and capacitance value of the caps, not at 0v, but at the operating voltage and maximum temperature they will be operating at.  In the case of input DC filtering, the second problem occasionally is the caps leakage current at the operating voltage and temperature.  On occasion, some of these so called Audio Grade caps may have a slight improvement on these extended operating metrics, but, a properly engineered amp designed with normal caps taking in all the extents and designed to operate outside, or better than it's audio specs should operate sounding perfectly excellent.  You shouldn't have to be wasting your time on these Nichicon cons.

The only 2 case where some so called audio grade cap may be of use is either in small values where you want to create a filter to alter the sound which is not the case with the caps listed above.  #2, inside the speaker crossover, where you want to filter full power, like 250 watts in series through the cap, driving that low impedance audio signals to a specific speaker driver.  Again, the caps above are useless in this circumstance in that really high end speakers use much larger, higher voltage, extremely high performance consistent esr over dynamically driven operating loads.  Again, nothing like the above Nichicon, or anything you can even purchase at digikey.  (Note that such quality caps do not advertise some BS on some electronics parts supplier flyer, their reputation is earned and they are known in the industry and they don't need to advertise in such ways...)

[Ampera]

If you (in general) were a douchebag with FAR too much money to spend on useless improvements to your stereo system, would you not want the largest, most wankiest technology in your overpriced, overdesigned, and underengeineered piece of tat audio player, so you can spend your days using the bottom 1/8th of your dynamic range to blast the neighborhood with the loudest base you can manage, all while reducing your hearing that couldn't hear the difference anyways to something that can't hear at all anymore?

Yes I'm full of piss, my neighbors have been doing this shit for days. I'd be sitting outside smoking (meat in a smoker) and I hear somebody with their massive stereo blasting the ears out of anybody stupid enough to try and walk outside and enjoy the nice summer's day.

This isn't about if their claims are real, and if their improvements actually do anything to improve sound quality, it's something they can stick on there so idiots buy it.

[Ampera]

This isn't about if their claims are real, and if their improvements actually do anything to improve sound quality, it's something they can stick on there so idiots buy it.

Don't you like them draining the pocket of the super rich douchebags you hate? Enemy's enemy is your friend.

I don't recall saying I dislike them draining the pockets of idiots stupid enough to buy this tat. I'm upset that the idiots who are stupid enough to buy this tat are allowed to breathe anymore.

[Zero999]

My understanding is that those audio caps are designed to be very linear. This is not important if the circuit is designed properly -- for power decoupling, you don't care about delta V across bus, and for inter-stage coupling, you want the delta V across cap to be only DC bias -- no AC component falling into audible range.
The problem is, some designers didn't make the design proper by using less than necessary capacitance, which causes high in band AC delta V across cap, then the nonlinearity can be shown as a kind of distortion.
Also sometimes it is desired to operate a coupling cap which has cut off frequency within audible band, for instance, in crossover filters to separate treble, mid and bass frequencies. In such applications, in band AC delta V will be high, and nonlinearity can cause audible distortion.
Electrolytic caps can be nonlinear, and can be very nonlinear at very low signal amplitude where the oxide layer hasn't been fully polarized. Another mechanism for distortion is caused by hysteresis effect (dielectric absorption), which is especially significant in Ta caps.

Why would you do that? Operate an electrolytic capacitor with inadequate DC bias, so the oxide layer isn't properly polarised. As you said poor design, no excuse.

There's also no mention on the datasheet that these special audiophool capacitors will do better in the situations you've described above, just liberal use of audiophool terminology and bullshit.

http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/alumi/catalog/pdf/rfs_e.pdf

[German_EE]

Do decent capacitors make a difference in audio circuits, yes, but ANY decent capacitor will do without all the audio wankery.

1) Always use low ESR capacitors, especially in decoupling situations, the difference on the power supply lines can be seen with a scope.

2) Good (new) capacitors leak less, this avoids accidental DC bias on inputs and 'thump' when switching, seen and heard both of these

3) Avoid cheap SMT mica capacitors like the plague because of microphonics. This bit me hard in a ham radio project and I learned my lesson.

4) Wire capacitors correctly, that black band on some of the polystyrene and polyester devices indicates the end that should be connected to chassis (or the lower impedance point). It's the connection to the outside foil in the wrap.

[Zero999]

Why would you do that? Operate an electrolytic capacitor with inadequate DC bias, so the oxide layer isn't properly polarised. As you said poor design, no excuse.

I would say 90% is hype, and 10% is real benefit. Proper audio design is an art, and few have mastered it.
However, imagine an entry level engineer has designed a poorly implemented circuit, and it sounds horribly.
Now, by replacing a cap to a "better" (just more tolerant to improper design, though) one, the sound suddenly becomes better.
If you are the boss or the customer without insight to circuit design, would you think that particular part is really cool?

We don't want to face the fact, but analog design is an art that is soon to be lost and only known by a few IC designers, and the vast of engineers grown up with highly engineered chips as building blocks without knowing how it's implemented, will know practically nothing about the beauty of analog design.

I agree with you about good components and poor design but you've missed the point: no actual figures or test data, supporting the idea that these capacitors are actually better, than ordinary, yet decent quality capacitors, is provided on the datasheet. All there is colourful language, which is meaningless in the absence of real data.

[Electro Detective]

Do decent capacitors make a difference in audio circuits, yes, but ANY decent capacitor will do without all the audio wankery.

1) Always use low ESR capacitors, especially in decoupling situations, the difference on the power supply lines can be seen with a scope.

2) Good (new) capacitors leak less, this avoids accidental DC bias on inputs and 'thump' when switching, seen and heard both of these

3) Avoid cheap SMT mica capacitors like the plague because of microphonics. This bit me hard in a ham radio project and I learned my lesson.

4) Wire capacitors correctly, that black band on some of the polystyrene and polyester devices indicates the end that should be connected to chassis (or the lower impedance point). It's the connection to the outside foil in the wrap.

All good on that       but sometimes the black bands are incorrect

[German_EE]

Trust but verify 

(Mr Carlson's Lab on capacitor bands)