Not sure how I feel about this.

[Halcyon]

The person(s) using said device are more than capable of doing it themselves every time they use/move/connect the device. It doesn't take any special skill or expertise to see that something is damaged and shouldn't be used.

That may be true of the colleagues you work with, but having attended multiple electrical fires caused by people (ab)using cabling there are plenty of people out there who wont even follow basic safety instructions.

I'm not doubting your experience, but I've been volunteering in the fire brigade for about 20 years now and even during my time as a General Duties police officer, I don't think I ever once attended a structure fire caused by a faulty appliance cable. Also, the vast majority of "electrical fires" occur at home (people leaving heaters too close to combustable materials, not cleaning the lint trap in their dryer etc...), which wouldn't be applicable to portable appliance testing anyway, since 99.99% of people don't have their appliances tagged and tested at home, it's almost exclusively a process for commercial and industrial premises.

The only time I came close to a house fire was when I visited a friend's house and could smell smoke. Turned out someone had used the improper fuse wire in a very old fuse box and was overloading the power outlet with a double-adapter.

If we're talking about commercial premises, I cited an example earlier where an office nearly burnt down due to a faulty appliance that was not detected/identified during a tag and test just a day before.

Have fires occured previously because of a faulty appliance lead? Sure, but I dare say in very small numbers. Is it worth the effort of PAT? Probably not, especially considering that the test result is only really valid at that specific moment in time. A "pass" means almost nothing hours, days, weeks later. At that stage, we're back to using our eyes and judgement.

[Someone]

The person(s) using said device are more than capable of doing it themselves every time they use/move/connect the device. It doesn't take any special skill or expertise to see that something is damaged and shouldn't be used.

That may be true of the colleagues you work with, but having attended multiple electrical fires caused by people (ab)using cabling there are plenty of people out there who wont even follow basic safety instructions.

I'm not doubting your experience, but I've been volunteering in the fire brigade for about 20 years now and even during my time as a General Duties police officer, I don't think I ever once attended a structure fire caused by a faulty appliance cable. Also, the vast majority of "electrical fires" occur at home (people leaving heaters too close to combustable materials, not cleaning the lint trap in their dryer etc...), which wouldn't be applicable to portable appliance testing anyway, since 99.99% of people don't have their appliances tagged and tested at home, it's almost exclusively a process for commercial and industrial premises.

The only time I came close to a house fire was when I visited a friend's house and could smell smoke. Turned out someone had used the improper fuse wire in a very old fuse box and was overloading the power outlet with a double-adapter.

If we're talking about commercial premises, I cited an example earlier where an office nearly burnt down due to a faulty appliance that was not detected/identified during a tag and test just a day before.

Have fires occured previously because of a faulty appliance lead? Sure, but I dare say in very small numbers. Is it worth the effort of PAT? Probably not, especially considering that the test result is only really valid at that specific moment in time. A "pass" means almost nothing hours, days, weeks later. At that stage, we're back to using our eyes and judgement.

I believe you are missing the point, but first some additional information:

• I'm talking about electrical fires in commercial/industrial (workplace) settings
• None of the fires spread due to the flame retardant materials
• All of the fires posed a threat to the safety of the end user
• Around half would have been prevented by in service testing being conducted on schedule
• All were caused by the end users either not checking for the condition of the cabling, or ignoring the operating instructions

It's that last point which is the problem. General population stopped their electrical safety knowledge at a) dont put a knife in a toaster and b) water and electrical items should never mix (cue the horror on those peoples faces when I wash or clean electrical appliances). The nuances of electrical safety are beyond the general population, even beyond most electronic hobbyists. Generally those two groups arrive at the same point through a different cause, but still emblematic of the issue that people simply wont pick this stuff up even when it's important to their daily activities.

You suggested user inspection as a solution, I'm saying thats basically insane. Even the "competent" people doing test and tag are failing the basics (as I've audited that) so how would the general public ever improve over that supposedly well trained group?

[Halcyon]

The person(s) using said device are more than capable of doing it themselves every time they use/move/connect the device. It doesn't take any special skill or expertise to see that something is damaged and shouldn't be used.

That may be true of the colleagues you work with, but having attended multiple electrical fires caused by people (ab)using cabling there are plenty of people out there who wont even follow basic safety instructions.

I'm not doubting your experience, but I've been volunteering in the fire brigade for about 20 years now and even during my time as a General Duties police officer, I don't think I ever once attended a structure fire caused by a faulty appliance cable. Also, the vast majority of "electrical fires" occur at home (people leaving heaters too close to combustable materials, not cleaning the lint trap in their dryer etc...), which wouldn't be applicable to portable appliance testing anyway, since 99.99% of people don't have their appliances tagged and tested at home, it's almost exclusively a process for commercial and industrial premises.

The only time I came close to a house fire was when I visited a friend's house and could smell smoke. Turned out someone had used the improper fuse wire in a very old fuse box and was overloading the power outlet with a double-adapter.

If we're talking about commercial premises, I cited an example earlier where an office nearly burnt down due to a faulty appliance that was not detected/identified during a tag and test just a day before.

Have fires occured previously because of a faulty appliance lead? Sure, but I dare say in very small numbers. Is it worth the effort of PAT? Probably not, especially considering that the test result is only really valid at that specific moment in time. A "pass" means almost nothing hours, days, weeks later. At that stage, we're back to using our eyes and judgement.

I believe you are missing the point, but first some additional information:

• I'm talking about electrical fires in commercial/industrial (workplace) settings
• None of the fires spread due to the flame retardant materials
• All of the fires posed a threat to the safety of the end user
• Around half would have been prevented by in service testing being conducted on schedule
• All were caused by the end users either not checking for the condition of the cabling, or ignoring the operating instructions

It's that last point which is the problem. General population stopped their electrical safety knowledge at a) dont put a knife in a toaster and b) water and electrical items should never mix (cue the horror on those peoples faces when I wash or clean electrical appliances). The nuances of electrical safety are beyond the general population, even beyond most electronic hobbyists. Generally those two groups arrive at the same point through a different cause, but still emblematic of the issue that people simply wont pick this stuff up even when it's important to their daily activities.

You suggested user inspection as a solution, I'm saying thats basically insane. Even the "competent" people doing test and tag are failing the basics (as I've audited that) so how would the general public ever improve over that supposedly well trained group?

That's all well and good, but how many of those fires were actually caused by a faulty appliance lead? Less than 1%? And out of those, how many were tagged?

You're absolutely right, anyone can plug a lead in, press a button and print a label. Do they actually understand what's going on or the limitations of this kind of testing? The whole notion of it is a joke (except in some limited circumstances). Which brings me back to my original point, it's less about "safety" and more about making a metric shit-ton of money. It's also a false sense of security since an end-user can pick up a cable/device with a label and assume that it's totally and completely safe (even though it may not be).

[Someone]

That's all well and good, but how many of those fires were actually caused by a faulty appliance lead? Less than 1%? And out of those, how many were tagged?

Like I said, roughly half of the electrical fires I have attended to were from damaged flexible (user installed) leads. I believe all of those cases would have been picked up in routine AS 3760 style testing before they failed catastrophically.

Thats before getting to all the other failing appliances which posed electrocution risks (though highly minimised due to the installation RCDs). Thats a valid area for discussion about the value of testing, validation of buildings RCDs could be more valuable than trying to play whack-a-mole with every individual appliance.

It's also a false sense of security since an end-user can pick up a cable/device with a label and assume that it's totally and completely safe (even though it may not be).

Yes, this is very true. But not doing in service testing and trying to educate ALL users to do their own risk assessments is going to have worse outcomes than the current situation.

[Halcyon]

I definitely acknowledge your comments Someone. It definitely does no harm undergoing this sort of testing, however I'm still not convinced. I'm not about to rush out and implement tag and testing at my workplace and I'm happy to accept that risk. Then again, we are a very technical organisation so the staff are pretty switched on when it comes to this kind of thing.

I'm probably better off spending the money on better quality components and products.

[Someone]

The good thing is in service testing is not mandated. So you could introduce some form of internal training/assessment and meet OHS obligations. For your organisation that could well exceed the average safety provided by the typical (almost blind) PAT testing. But that cannot be generalised to other organisations.

[PlainName]

The person(s) using said device are more than capable of doing it themselves every time they use/move/connect the device.

Just noting that this is the idealised theory, but in practice it tends to be someone elses problem. Particularly where the workforce is non-technical and there only to make a wage. I've seen  automatic roller doors where the support cable has popped off its bobbin and hanging in a tangle, but the door works because the other side is still OK. No-one is going to even raise a question about it until it actually stops. And that's despite the usual operator warning signs plastered all over the place.

Fires aren't the only potential issue with poorly maintained stuff.

[coppice]

I agree with the point about safety, however I don't agree with paying someone $5 per device, to spend a few seconds every year performing that visual inspection. The person(s) using said device are more than capable of doing it themselves every time they use/move/connect the device. It doesn't take any special skill or expertise to see that something is damaged and shouldn't be used.

I have found that most people who are afraid of electricity have very good reason to be. As a student I did some repair of small appliances, to get a little money. Often from people who said electricity scared them, and they wouldn't do anything to the appliances themselves. This notion of not doing anything didn't extend to treating the cord with some respect, and not tying it in knots every time the appliance was put away. Cord abuse seems to be inversely related to how fearful people are of electricity. A rapidly degrading cord doesn't spur them into action until the appliance actually stops working.

The thing with the $5 PAT inspection is its not usually someone getting their own devices inspected, which would be a waste for anyone with a functioning brain. Its usually things like colleges not allowing student's appliances into a hall of residence until they have been independently inspected. Considering some of the things students try to use, this is probably a wise requirement.