EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: coppice on July 29, 2023, 06:37:04 pm
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There are lots notebook computers which work well for home or light portable use, but for the last few years if you wanted something to carry around for business day in and day out the choice has been a Thinkpad or a Dell Latitude. After 20 years of owning the Thinkpad brand, and keeping it like it was in the IBM days, Lenovo seems to have suddenly trashed it. The newest machines feel cheap and flimsy, and IT people are complaining about absurd failure rates. So, how is Dell doing? What other choices currently make sense?
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Have a look at the ThinkPad P16.
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I cannot comment on modern Latitudes, as the last one I had was 8-10 years ago. However, based on my experience, ThinkPad X1 Extremes are fairly good. I have owned 3 of them over the past few years. Lenovo can offer a pretty good warranty, so I wouldn't be too worried about failure rates, as long as you get a good coverage. My last X1 Extreme was purchased as an open box from B&H and it came with a burned USB port. Instead of returning to B&H, Lenovo replaced the motherboard under warranty, and a technician came onsite within 24 hours of submitting the support case.
You may also consider the MacBook Pro. These laptops are faster, quieter, and have excellent battery life compared to ThinkPads. However, for Windows users, the MacOS experience could be a bit challenging, and Apple's warranty comes with a deductible and longer turnaround times.
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I cannot comment on modern Latitudes, as the last one I had was 8-10 years ago. However, based on my experience, ThinkPad X1 Extremes are fairly good. I have owned 3 of them over the past few years. Lenovo can offer a pretty good warranty, so I wouldn't be too worried about failure rates, as long as you get a good coverage. My last X1 Extreme was purchased as an open box from B&H and it came with a burned USB port. Instead of returning to B&H, Lenovo replaced the motherboard under warranty, and a technician came onsite within 24 hours of submitting the support case.
Over the last 20 years my family have owned a number of X2x0 and T14 Thinkpads. They've always been excellent, never failed, and the one that was damaged in an accident was handled quickly and efficiently. My daughter went to look at the latest T14, as she's about to start a master's degree. They have changed dramatically this year. They feel cheap and flimsy. She looked around and found lots of IT people complaining that fault rates have gone through the roof with the latest generation of various models of Thinkpads, and Lenovo are suddenly handling problems very poorly. It seems experience more than 1 year old may not be very relevant to what you can buy today as a Thinkpad.
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T and X1 Extreme are two different series. The X1 that I said had the hardware problem was bought and serviced 7 month ago. Its build quality was the same as previous generations of X1 Extreme that I owned or used at work.
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For the sake of clarity, it was the X1 Extreme Gen 5.
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T and X1 Extreme are two different series. The X1 that I said had the hardware problem was bought and serviced 7 month ago. Its build quality was the same as previous generations of X1 Extreme that I owned or used at work.
The Extreme might be a bit big. The Carbon X1 seems to have been trashed in the latest model. The Extreme looks like it hasn't been updated yet.
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I take online reviews with a grain of salt. With any product, you can find both rave reviews and negative ones. At multinational corporation where I work, IT department continues to issue ThinkPads, both 14” T and X1 Extreme, to new employees, at least in my team.
However, since this is for your daughter, I strongly suggest considering the MacBook Pro or even the MacBook Air. While I might be too old to master MacOS without growing too much grey hair, kids and young adults tend to learn fast.
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The Extreme might be a bit big. The Carbon X1 seems to have been trashed in the latest model. The Extreme looks like it hasn't been updated yet.
Do you have more info on that? I have generally been happy with the X1Cs I've had but I haven't used the latest one. From what I've read it was supposed to be basically the same as the Gen 10 with a new CPU.
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However, since this is for your daughter, I strongly suggest considering the MacBook Pro or even the MacBook Air. While I might be too old to master MacOS without growing too much grey hair, kids and young adults tend to learn fast.
You might want to check requirements first. If the course uses Windows only software, then you are screwed with a Mac
Either way, I'd get a laptop for 'business use' and leave the consumer crap in the store. Yes, you can buy a laptop that looks better on paper but if you want reliability & durability: go for a business use computer.
I'm actually typing this on a decade old Dell Vostro. Still works like a charm, original battery is OK, no problems even though it has travelled hundreds of thousands kilometers in airplanes, cars, trains and in a bag attached to my bike. It is getting a bit slow for today's standards though so it needs replacing with a faster model. Which will be a Dell again.
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I'm actually typing this on a decade old Dell Vostro. Still works like a charm, original battery is OK, no problems even though it has travelled hundreds of thousands kilometers in airplanes, cars, trains and in a bag attached to my bike. It is getting a bit slow for today's standards though so it needs replacing with a faster model. Which will be a Dell again.
The Vostros are perfectly nice machines for home use. I wouldn't put one in a rucksack every day, and carry it around, though. That's what has separated the Thinkpads and Latitudes from the others. HP and Toshiba used to be in that camp, but no longer. My daughter has a pretty nice Gigabyte notebook, but if she carried that around every day it would be dead in no time. That's why we are looking for a new machine.
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The Extreme might be a bit big. The Carbon X1 seems to have been trashed in the latest model. The Extreme looks like it hasn't been updated yet.
Do you have more info on that? I have generally been happy with the X1Cs I've had but I haven't used the latest one. From what I've read it was supposed to be basically the same as the Gen 10 with a new CPU.
My children looked in a Lenovo shop in HK today. They went to see what the current T14 was like, and were seriously disappointed, so they looked around at other models. Anything recently refreshed seemed to be heading in the same direction. People commenting about reliability may be real, or they might just have had some bad luck. What you see of build quality first hand is what it is. There may be differences in what is being offered in HK. Lenovo do supply different machines with the same name in different markets. That's usually things like the East Asia version has a discrete GPU, while the rest of the world doesn't get that. The core designs are usually global.
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However, since this is for your daughter, I strongly suggest considering the MacBook Pro or even the MacBook Air. While I might be too old to master MacOS without growing too much grey hair, kids and young adults tend to learn fast.
I love my daughter. Why would I suggest a thing like that? :)
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I like the current latitudes, i changed the PCs at work this year, now i use a 5530. Nice screen, nice keyboard (though it's a bit crammed) and plenty of power. Build quality is good.
It only suffer from a curious problem, if you pick it up while the lid is open, with your right hand, there is a chance that it crashes (crap on screen, freezes) it probably bends slightly. All other dells i used in the past suffered from the same problem, so i always pick it up closed or with two hands
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You may also consider the MacBook Pro. These laptops are faster, quieter, and have excellent battery life compared to ThinkPads. However, for Windows users, the MacOS experience could be a bit challenging, and Apple's warranty comes with a deductible and longer turnaround times.
I am in the process of making the transition to the MacBook Pro M2 - it isn't all that difficult if you have spent time with Unix or Linux. I really like the crisp display and most everything I use on Windows will run on the MacBook Pro - except MATLAB and that conversion may be complete in version 2023b when it gets released. Meanwhile I can get most of my stuff working with wxMaxima.
I wanted the M2 variant for Machine Learning and such. I had read where the M2 was blazing fast but I'm pretty sure that is fanboy stuff. It doesn't seem any faster than any Intel based laptop with an NVIDIA graphics chip.
It's a really nice laptop!
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You may also consider the MacBook Pro. These laptops are faster, quieter, and have excellent battery life compared to ThinkPads. However, for Windows users, the MacOS experience could be a bit challenging, and Apple's warranty comes with a deductible and longer turnaround times.
I am in the process of making the transition to the MacBook Pro M2 - it isn't all that difficult if you have spent time with Unix or Linux. I really like the crisp display and most everything I use on Windows will run on the MacBook Pro - except MATLAB and that conversion may be complete in version 2023b when it gets released. Meanwhile I can get most of my stuff working with wxMaxima.
I didn't understand what vad was talking about there. Even if you have never used a Unix or Linux machine, moving from Windows to Mac is a trivial change. Windows 7 to Windows 10 was just as big.
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You may also consider the MacBook Pro. These laptops are faster, quieter, and have excellent battery life compared to ThinkPads. However, for Windows users, the MacOS experience could be a bit challenging, and Apple's warranty comes with a deductible and longer turnaround times.
I am in the process of making the transition to the MacBook Pro M2 - it isn't all that difficult if you have spent time with Unix or Linux. I really like the crisp display and most everything I use on Windows will run on the MacBook Pro - except MATLAB and that conversion may be complete in version 2023b when it gets released. Meanwhile I can get most of my stuff working with wxMaxima.
I didn't understand what vad was talking about there. Even if you have never used a Unix or Linux machine, moving from Windows to Mac is a trivial change. Windows 7 to Windows 10 was just as big.
Well, there is no backspace key (the delete button does a backspace), the system controls are on the wrong side (like Ubuntu was with Unity desktop), command line install for apps that don't come packaged, keyboard shortcuts for page up/down, forward/back (browser). It seems to me that keyboard shortcuts and trackpad gestures are vastly more important in the Macbook universe.
Then there is the Magic Mouse with trackpad functionality instead of a scroll wheel and no forward/back buttons. It does have left/right as well as up/down scroll functionality.
The Macbook does work with a conventional mouse but I bought the Magic Mouse so I might as well make peace with it.
Keyboard combinations using the <Command> key are hard to type and the <Command> key is the equivalent of the Windows <Ctrl> key so lots of opportunity to mistype Cut/Copy/Paste.
It seems as though whatever you know about Windows, forget about it when you move to Macbook. Really, these are just nits. I think I'll be using the Macbook as my primary machine for a while. But I still have to deal with Linux and Windows.
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You may also consider the MacBook Pro. These laptops are faster, quieter, and have excellent battery life compared to ThinkPads. However, for Windows users, the MacOS experience could be a bit challenging, and Apple's warranty comes with a deductible and longer turnaround times.
I am in the process of making the transition to the MacBook Pro M2 - it isn't all that difficult if you have spent time with Unix or Linux. I really like the crisp display and most everything I use on Windows will run on the MacBook Pro - except MATLAB and that conversion may be complete in version 2023b when it gets released. Meanwhile I can get most of my stuff working with wxMaxima.
I didn't understand what vad was talking about there. Even if you have never used a Unix or Linux machine, moving from Windows to Mac is a trivial change. Windows 7 to Windows 10 was just as big.
Well, there is no backspace key (the delete button does a backspace), the system controls are on the wrong side (like Ubuntu was with Unity desktop), command line install for apps that don't come packaged, keyboard shortcuts for page up/down, forward/back (browser). It seems to me that keyboard shortcuts and trackpad gestures are vastly more important in the Macbook universe.
Then there is the Magic Mouse with trackpad functionality instead of a scroll wheel and no forward/back buttons. It does have left/right as well as up/down scroll functionality.
The Macbook does work with a conventional mouse but I bought the Magic Mouse so I might as well make peace with it.
Keyboard combinations using the <Command> key are hard to type and the <Command> key is the equivalent of the Windows <Ctrl> key so lots of opportunity to mistype Cut/Copy/Paste.
It seems as though whatever you know about Windows, forget about it when you move to Macbook. Really, these are just nits. I think I'll be using the Macbook as my primary machine for a while. But I still have to deal with Linux and Windows.
So, about an hour to get used to it. Pretty much like a Windows update. :)
Both Windows and MacOS are pretty bad for both app installation and updates. Only the various Linuxes really have that one nailed. Any app provider can create their own compatible RPM or APT repo, and most things install and (more importantly) update from there in as consistent manner as apps on phones work from the app stores.
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The company i work in exclusively uses DELL for it's computers and servers.
While i am currently not supporting these at the moment, my past experience with the notebooks was mixed.
The old D Series were built like tanks. Very robust and reliable, but also heavy.
The first E Series was utter crap. Hideous QA, both hard- and firmware. There were like 40 BIOS revisions published over the lifetime of the first generation. And we had a lot of complaints about shoddy assembly: misrun cables causing bulges in the keyboard, and display bezels getting loose were the main issues.
Later E Series were significantly better.
After the E Series, the first new generation was again not as well made, from what i head about our internal support. Many issues with bulging batteries were reported.
The 7400 i had myself ran fine without major issues in it's lifetime though.
At the moment i am using a Latitude 7420. That runs fine without any issues at all so far. That is confirmed by our internal support as well. These are fine. My major point of critique of the 7420 is the lack of USB ports: It has only 1 A type, and 2 C type ports. The fan can also become annoying at times.
Current models of Dockingstations (WD19TB and up) are also fine now. Many earlier docks, especially the WD15 and 16 were bad.
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Have you considered HP's Zbook?
they are(look) sturdy but the weight is killing me or that is just I'm not that young anymore to carry loads of stuff ;D
https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/mlp/hp-zbook- (https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/mlp/hp-zbook-)
my Lenovo ideapad had cracks near the hinge & that's just only after a few usage since it was a desktop replacement & I had an external monitor. :palm:
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There are lots notebook computers which work well for home or light portable use, but for the last few years if you wanted something to carry around for business day in and day out the choice has been a Thinkpad or a Dell Latitude.
What kind of "carry around" scenarios are you envisioning? I have used a 14" Lenovo IdeaPad Pro (one of their consumer product lines, never mind the "pro" moniker) for the past two years, and have carried it around quite a bit. I use a backpack with a ightly padded notebook compartment, and the computer is just fine. The same has been true for the consumer-type Samsung and Asus notebooks I had before -- all mid-price devices with aluminium enclosures.
As long as you don't plan to carry the computer in just a displosable plastic bag or such, in my experience the consumer notebooks are fine for portable use. The only serious mechanical damage I have encountered was with two DELL Latitudes which I used before switiching to consumer models: A bad spot on the LCD of a Latitude D after I hit it with something hard any pointy (my fault), and a broken screen hinge on a Latitude E (DELL's design fault).
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The company i work in exclusively uses DELL for it's computers and servers.
While i am currently not supporting these at the moment, my past experience with the notebooks was mixed.
The old D Series were built like tanks. Very robust and reliable, but also heavy.
The first E Series was utter crap. Hideous QA, both hard- and firmware. There were like 40 BIOS revisions published over the lifetime of the first generation. And we had a lot of complaints about shoddy assembly: misrun cables causing bulges in the keyboard, and display bezels getting loose were the main issues.
Later E Series were significantly better.
After the E Series, the first new generation was again not as well made, from what i head about our internal support. Many issues with bulging batteries were reported.
The 7400 i had myself ran fine without major issues in it's lifetime though.
At the moment i am using a Latitude 7420. That runs fine without any issues at all so far. That is confirmed by our internal support as well. These are fine. My major point of critique of the 7420 is the lack of USB ports: It has only 1 A type, and 2 C type ports. The fan can also become annoying at times.
Current models of Dockingstations (WD19TB and up) are also fine now. Many earlier docks, especially the WD15 and 16 were bad.
Between 2002 and 2016 I constantly had a large Dell provided to me. I only remember one thing that needed be to repaired, and it needed repairing twice in the 4 years I had that machine - the touch pad. They were a mixed bag of good and bad features, and the docking stations were awful, but they scored well on reliability in the face of endless lugging around the world in backpacks.
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There are lots notebook computers which work well for home or light portable use, but for the last few years if you wanted something to carry around for business day in and day out the choice has been a Thinkpad or a Dell Latitude.
What kind of "carry around" scenarios are you envisioning? I have used a 14" Lenovo IdeaPad Pro (one of their consumer product lines, never mind the "pro" moniker) for the past two years, and have carried it around quite a bit. I use a backpack with a ightly padded notebook compartment, and the computer is just fine. The same has been true for the consumer-type Samsung and Asus notebooks I had before -- all mid-price devices with aluminium enclosures.
As long as you don't plan to carry the computer in just a displosable plastic bag or such, in my experience the consumer notebooks are fine for portable use. The only serious mechanical damage I have encountered was with two DELL Latitudes which I used before switiching to consumer models: A bad spot on the LCD of a Latitude D after I hit it with something hard any pointy (my fault), and a broken screen hinge on a Latitude E (DELL's design fault).
How many overhead bins in airliners has your notebook been through? We can't all control the abuse our notebooks get very well. Driving around in a car most of the time MASSIVELY reduces the physical stresses a notebook suffers over its life, compared to using public transport.
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How many overhead bins in airliners has your notebook been through? We can't all control the abuse our notebooks get very well. Driving around in a car most of the time MASSIVELY reduces the physical stresses a notebook suffers over its life, compared to using public transport.
Most of my flights have been for business, carrying various company notebooks (DELL, Lenovo, HP) in the same padded backpack or its predecessor. The more recent generations of DELL and HP business notebooks don't feel much different from the consumer lines to me, so I don't think my personal notebooks would have fared any worse. And I don't recall any traumatic events related to the overhead bins -- what terrible things would happen up there?
My personal notebooks have travelled by mostly train -- carried on foot, stuffed into the open overhead luggage racks, set up on flimsy fold-out tables or my lap -- and have taken that in stride.
What types of damage would you be concerned about? Cosmetic blemishes can happen with some bad luck, but I don't see how the business models would have better protection. The only design-related difference I can think of is robustness against a heavy impact to the back of the lid (display) while the notebook is closed -- there is a trade-off between sturdyness and lightweight/slim design there, and the consumer models tend to focus on "slim". I do make sure that I pack my notebook with the display facing the inside of the backpack.
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I still use Thinkpads (T or L models), and think they're quite ok, now that they went back to the synaptic or elan touchpads.
If you need (prefer) a RJ-45 network plug, along with WiFi. Make sure to check if the model you select has one, as some of the new slim TP's only have WiFi.
I prefer the 14" or 15" , as i think the bigger models (P line) is too big.
A used L14 Gen1 (either) Intel i5 or AMD Ryzen, is my preferred model atm. - I replaced the 512GB NVME w. a 1TB Samsung NVME SSD 980.
Ie: https://www.ebay.com/itm/186005727797 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/186005727797)
But i have also used T460s, T470s, T480s, L470, L480 and L490.
Note: T460 & T/L470 doesn't support Win11 - I don't care as i use linux.
You'd need an Intel Gen8+ CPU for Win11 , as is in the 480,490 & L14 models.
I have tried the L14 Gen2 ... It's FAST , but IMHO it gets too hot. And it's not on the "Used" market yet.
I usually buy my Thinkpads used, and the price varies but starts at around $250
I have only ever had one "mechanically" damaged TP (a L470, with a crack in the plastic that developed a bit)
And i have had an x260, where the "mobo ram controller died".
I still have my T430s that i paid $160 for (used), running fine ... I only replaced to get FullHD graphics.
Btw: I NEVER had a TP PSU die on me ... Not even my old T600 PSU from Y2k.
/Bingo
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I used to be a fan of IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads. As the matter of fact, I collect them. I have unhealthy number of various models, from X to T series. Lenovo has the unique talent of fu*ki*g at least one thing up. My last ThinkPad was P1 gen2. That laptop was expensive, had system issues (known keyboard bug) and did not excel in anything. I am happy that I sold that laptop and switched to a different brand after ~14 years of Thinkpad loyalty. I use framework laptop now. Not that the laptop is perfect but I like the philosophy. I also like the performance of the 12th gen Intel P core. I believe this is a great compromise for engineers. It kicks ass of my previous i7-9850 and has full linux support.
In my opinion, times when paying extra for a laptop are gone. The only thing I miss is the trackpoint. If the price is right, then a Thinkpad is still a good solution. However, I would not pay extra. Elitebooks, Travelmates or Latitudes should be also in consideration. What I ultimately hate is the rubberized coating on new thinkpads. The palmrest looks like a table from MC Donalds after few hours....
PS: There is still a strong community on u/Thinkpads , P1 gen5 often pop up with issues (overheating, dying MoBos, etc.).
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Lenovo has the unique talent of fu*ki*g at least one thing up.
You mean beyond the wrong positions for the Fn and Ctrl keys? :P
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Lenovo has the unique talent of fu*ki*g at least one thing up.
You mean beyond the wrong positions for the Fn and Ctrl keys? :P
Afaik you can change it in Bios/UEFI
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Afaik you can change it in Bios/UEFI
Yes you can; that's what I did for the couple of Thinkpads I had as company computers. (I used to switch between built-in and external keyboards, as well as different notebook brands, a lot, and the varying Fn/Ctrl positions drove me nuts.)
But I couldn't swap the keycaps since they were different sizes -- which would then drive others crazy when they occasionally had to type on my computer...
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Afaik you can change it in Bios/UEFI
Yes you can; that's what I did for the couple of Thinkpads I had as company computers. (I used to switch between built-in and external keyboards, as well as different notebook brands, a lot, and the varying Fn/Ctrl positions drove me nuts.)
But I couldn't swap the keycaps since they were different sizes -- which would then drive others crazy when they occasionally had to type on my computer...
Now imagine me. A Czech in Germany in a US company with a Slovak QWERZ keyboard with QWERTY layout. The look of an IT guy once typing on my keyboard was priceless :-DD
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I'm actually typing this on a decade old Dell Vostro. Still works like a charm, original battery is OK, no problems even though it has travelled hundreds of thousands kilometers in airplanes, cars, trains and in a bag attached to my bike. It is getting a bit slow for today's standards though so it needs replacing with a faster model. Which will be a Dell again.
The Vostros are perfectly nice machines for home use. I wouldn't put one in a rucksack every day, and carry it around, though.
That is exactly what I have been doing with my Vostro. It has made hundreds of rides in a bag attached to the luggage carrier of my bike (in a Samsonite laptop bag). But it seems there are differences between versions so I could be lucky and got the sturdier model. For my next laptop I'm looking at a Dell Precision 7780 (which is also available with Ubuntu Linux so the hardware should be Linux compatible). I will be using Linux as the primary OS.
Still, what is also important is stability of the platform. Nothing sucks more than dealing with weird crashes and hardware that doesn't work.
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I got the 10th gen X1 Carbon around 5 months ago (i7, 16GB, 1TB, 2k screen). Before that, I was using a 5th gen x1 carbon that got me through uni, and gave it to my mum after refurbishing it, loved that machine.
I have always been a Windows / Linux (Manjaro) guy, dual booting depending if I'm doing more electronics or software at the time. I (used to) love thinkpads, often recommending it to people around it. Hell, I even bought thinkpad branded keyboards for all my other computers as I liked the trackpoint so much. I don't like Macs and Apple in general, didn't like the ethos, nor how locked-down their machines are.
The 10 gen X1 carbon is CRAP. It is slow, battery life is atrocious, and performance is disappointing. One time I was working on a simple CAD model in Fusion 360 (Windows) and had to jump on a google meet call, so I unplugged the laptop, minimised Fusion and went into a quiet room. Immediately the whole machine lagged, moving windows around was like clicking through a power point slide, fans ramped up, machine got hot, and the battery drained from full to 20-ish% in 2 hours.
Sleep doesn't work properly, apparently a common Windows bug. Linus Tech Tips made a whole video around it (Microsoft is Forcing me to Buy MacBooks - Windows Modern Standby). Closing the laptop lid and opening it again next morning will usually result in the whole battery drained.
I installed the officially supported Fibocom LTE/5G module as the needed antennas were already installed from the factory even if the machine didn't come with the 5G option initially. On windows it worked fine. On Linux, it doesn't work at all, and on the Lenovo forums, Lenovo "promised" they would add LTE/5G module support to Linux, but they still haven't publish the drivers for the 9th gen, so my 10th gen is of course SOL. Also getting Windows 11 to work nicely with Linux dual boot is a nightmare, but I digress.
I got really fed up with the thinkpad, and ended up selling it. It is not reliable, it does not do what a laptop is supposed to do (be "usable" while on the go). And seeing how well my co-workers' macs worked, I decided to give macbooks a shot. I bought a 14-inch macbook pro (M2 pro, 32 GB, 1TB) a month ago.
The hardware is wonderful. My old habit was to use my laptop on the go, and switch to desktop at home, as the laptop was too under-powered for the stuff I need to do. The Macbook is powerful enough that I don't mind using the same machine at home, without thinking I'm "compromising" performance. Battery lasts around 8-10 hours on a charge doing moderately demanding tasks (simple CAD, PCB design, embedded programming etc.) with no slowdown while un-plugged. The machine is heavier than the thinkpad for sure, but the size is similar and fits into the same bag. The only thing I hate is the retarded notch on the screen. Apple is probably the only company in the world that could do that and get away with it, as every developer who develops for MacOS will work with it, so they just went "whatcha gonna do 'bout it" and put the stupid notch there.
Software is meh. Windows management is crap, imo worse than Windows or even Linux KDE or Gnome, which says a lot. The file explorer (Finder) is quite limiting. Switching between windows is retarded. Quite a lot of plug-ins (some paid, some free) is needed to get it closer to what I'm used to, but you can get it to work more like Windows / KDE / Gnome at the end and be happy with it. Running other OS through virtualisation with the Parallels app is better than I imagined. Altium runs fine on Windows VM, Buildroot compiles in Linux VM. So far I haven't found anything that I need to run but couldn't. Having a functional UNIX shell is great, but there will still be issues if you compile projects with a lot of Linux deps.
Machine is expensive, very expensive. There's zero after-market upgradability and the upgrade options when you order the machine is borderline robbery. I'm well aware of the lengths Apple will go to discourage 3-rd party repairs, so I caved-in and got Apple care, as I use my laptops rough.
Do I regret the purchase? Absolutely not. I wish I've gotten it sooner without the (mis)adventure with the 10th Gen Thinkpad. It has great battery life, I can run all the stuff I need to run, it is quite performant. It is what I think an "ideal" laptop should be like.
That said, if one day Intel / AMD / Windows / Lenovo pulls their sh*t together, or someone who's not Apple come up with an ARM laptop chip that's as good as Apple silicon, I wouldn't think twice and jump back to Windows/Linux laptops when my Mac gets too old.
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I'm actually typing this on a decade old Dell Vostro. Still works like a charm, original battery is OK, no problems even though it has travelled hundreds of thousands kilometers in airplanes, cars, trains and in a bag attached to my bike. It is getting a bit slow for today's standards though so it needs replacing with a faster model. Which will be a Dell again.
The Vostros are perfectly nice machines for home use. I wouldn't put one in a rucksack every day, and carry it around, though.
.....For my next laptop I'm looking at a Dell Precision 7780 (which is also available with Ubuntu Linux so the hardware should be Linux compatible). I will be using Linux as the primary OS......
Just be careful, Dell and Lenovo likes to claim compatibility with Linux. What they mean is that you can boot linux. Every couple years Lenovo makes a big announcement "we network with e.g. Fedora". It is just marketing thing. They pushed like once a fingerprint driver to the kernel. That was it. My ex. P1 gen2 was too "linux certified". In reality, linux was not usable with that machine, mainly thanks to the hybrid graphics (nVidia). Either battery life was terrible or the laptop did not recognize type-c docking, etc. Most of the time it failed both. If you want full linux support, stay away from nVidia-enabled laptop and go with an OEM with "real" linux support (Tuxedo, Framework, etc.).
Additionally, some linux configurations were literally more expensive than the same hardware with windows license.
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I'm actually typing this on a decade old Dell Vostro. Still works like a charm, original battery is OK, no problems even though it has travelled hundreds of thousands kilometers in airplanes, cars, trains and in a bag attached to my bike. It is getting a bit slow for today's standards though so it needs replacing with a faster model. Which will be a Dell again.
The Vostros are perfectly nice machines for home use. I wouldn't put one in a rucksack every day, and carry it around, though.
.....For my next laptop I'm looking at a Dell Precision 7780 (which is also available with Ubuntu Linux so the hardware should be Linux compatible). I will be using Linux as the primary OS......
Just be careful, Dell and Lenovo likes to claim compatibility with Linux. What they mean is that you can boot linux. Every couple years Lenovo makes a big announcement "we network with e.g. Fedora". It is just marketing thing. They pushed like once a fingerprint driver to the kernel. That was it. My ex. P1 gen2 was too "linux certified". In reality, linux was not usable with that machine, mainly thanks to the hybrid graphics (nVidia). Either battery life was terrible or the laptop did not recognize type-c docking, etc. Most of the time it failed both. If you want full linux support, stay away from nVidia-enabled laptop and go with an OEM with "real" linux support (Tuxedo, Framework, etc.).
Additionally, some linux configurations were literally more expensive than the same hardware with windows license.
I've been running Linux on various ThinkPads for at least 20 years. I think I had a problem with a new wifi chip on one, where I had to wait for the Linux driver to show up. For my use that was no big deal. I can't remember anything else causing me any problems. I've never had one with Linux preinstalled, though. I've just got a Windows machine, and either wiped or swapped out the disc on day one.
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I'm actually typing this on a decade old Dell Vostro. Still works like a charm, original battery is OK, no problems even though it has travelled hundreds of thousands kilometers in airplanes, cars, trains and in a bag attached to my bike. It is getting a bit slow for today's standards though so it needs replacing with a faster model. Which will be a Dell again.
The Vostros are perfectly nice machines for home use. I wouldn't put one in a rucksack every day, and carry it around, though.
.....For my next laptop I'm looking at a Dell Precision 7780 (which is also available with Ubuntu Linux so the hardware should be Linux compatible). I will be using Linux as the primary OS......
Just be careful, Dell and Lenovo likes to claim compatibility with Linux. What they mean is that you can boot linux. Every couple years Lenovo makes a big announcement "we network with e.g. Fedora". It is just marketing thing. They pushed like once a fingerprint driver to the kernel. That was it. My ex. P1 gen2 was too "linux certified". In reality, linux was not usable with that machine, mainly thanks to the hybrid graphics (nVidia). Either battery life was terrible or the laptop did not recognize type-c docking, etc. Most of the time it failed both. If you want full linux support, stay away from nVidia-enabled laptop and go with an OEM with "real" linux support (Tuxedo, Framework, etc.).
Additionally, some linux configurations were literally more expensive than the same hardware with windows license.
I've been running Linux on various ThinkPads for at least 20 years. I think I had a problem with a new wifi chip on one, where I had to wait for the Linux driver to show up. For my use that was no big deal. I can't remember anything else causing me any problems. I've never had one with Linux preinstalled, though. I've just got a Windows machine, and either wiped or swapped out the disc on day one.
Hybrid graphics solutions are well known for problems. The internal screen uses both, the discrete + integrated GPU. However, external monitor (HDMI, DP over Type-C, etc.) uses only the dedicated card. Windows is able to select whatever is right. In linux, it is troublesome (not a problem of Linux but a problem of nVidia). When Lenovo marketed their P1 for linux support they actually used a version without the dedicated GPU. It is important to say, that P1 workstation with integrated GPU only for the price it was sold did not make any sense.
Th second problem is fingerprint readers.
PS: I too use linux on older thinkpads (x230, t61, x301, x61, x60...) but new hardware is always challenging. I want to try linux on my Framework 12th gen core i tonight. We will see.
Fedora should work out of the box.
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On my second LG Gram now, first was a 10th gen i7 1065g7 17” with 40GB RAM and two 2TB NVMe drives.
Newer one, a 16” i7 1260p is 32GB with a 4TB NVMe.
Super lightweight, but as a result they do thermal throttle under heavy load, but both have a decent selection of ports.
I did go through a few 2-in-1s before these, including a 10th gen i7 1065g7 XPS13 2in1 with 32GB & 2TB, and before that an 8th gen ZBook G5 x360 i7 8850H with 64GB & two 2TB in RAID 0. The XPS screen real estate was too little for me, but at least you could put it on an airline tray table unlike the LG Grams I have. The ZBook while super powerful is just too heavy for lugging about, but the 15.6” 4k screen is gorgeous.
The daily drivers for travel/work for the past three years have been the LG Grams, and for a commute with a small table area or lap use I have also take a 10” GPD notebook with a 6800U and 32GB RAM plus 2TB NVMe.
I’ve come to realise there’s no one single solution, finding that 2in1s are too much of a compromise in terms of weight penalty and crippled use in tablet model
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There are lots notebook computers which work well for home or light portable use, but for the last few years if you wanted something to carry around for business day in and day out the choice has been a Thinkpad or a Dell Latitude. After 20 years of owning the Thinkpad brand, and keeping it like it was in the IBM days, Lenovo seems to have suddenly trashed it. The newest machines feel cheap and flimsy, and IT people are complaining about absurd failure rates. So, how is Dell doing? What other choices currently make sense?
Apple? ;D
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There are lots notebook computers which work well for home or light portable use, but for the last few years if you wanted something to carry around for business day in and day out the choice has been a Thinkpad or a Dell Latitude. After 20 years of owning the Thinkpad brand, and keeping it like it was in the IBM days, Lenovo seems to have suddenly trashed it. The newest machines feel cheap and flimsy, and IT people are complaining about absurd failure rates. So, how is Dell doing? What other choices currently make sense?
Apple? ;D
Just for information, our company switched from Dell to HP to now switch to Thinkpads... They all suck in their own way.