Now humans must be EMF resistant.

[G7PSK]

Now humans must be EMF resistant, well according to the new EU regulations they will need to be. I was sent t6his piece of information today by TWI.

http://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/job-knowledge/workers-exposure-to-electromagnetic-fields-from-welding-processes-132/

It would appear that the EU has decided that the fields that some have been exposed to since the 1890's are harmful and need to be monitored (no doubt at great expense by a chosen few) It looks to me like a job for the boys situation again.Some thing the EU is extremely good at.

[T3sl4co1l]

On the one hand,

I've read a number of studies saying electromagnetic radiation is, get this, healthy for you.  The benefit correlates with latitude for some reason.

And yet, every time I've been exposed, I get acute first degree burns!  How can this be!

On a more practical note, I was playing with low impedance (<= 50 ohms) tuning coils in the 20MHz range today; physical touch or proximity has very little effect.  Evidently I'm quite transparent in that situation, which is handy to know.

Tim

[Zero999]

Seems like a waste of money to me.

Hopefully it'll just get ignored.

[G7PSK]

Seems like a waste of money to me.

Hopefully it'll just get ignored.

Waste of money all right, Ignored here in the UK NO, the elf and safety wont allow that and any one who has not handed over large amounts of cash to the anointed ones with the gizmo will get prosecuted. It will be another milch cow for the government they will hand out licences for a large sum to company's that will conduct the tests who in turn will charge even larger sums to conduct the survey that will be required to write the report that lives in the drawer until elf&safety arrives to inspect it.

[LukeW]

I thought this crazy EU stuff on EMF safety regulations was thrown out, or at least postponed, when somebody figured out it would mean completely banning medical MRIs among other things?

[dannyf]

according to the new EU regulations they will need to be.

That's how great civilizations launched into their own demise.

[daqq]

Perhaps tinfoil hats will finally become a socially accepted piece of protective gear. They'll even stop looking at me like I'm a crazy person! Yet another blow to the foul Reptiloids!

[LordNobady]

Long live the EU overlords. With there bureaucratic and there unknowing wisdom to listen to the lobby's with the most money thy will protect all the people from ever making a wrong decision. 

[GEuser]

This all makes sense actually , then everyone will have to wear a EMF meter detector and it'll only be a coincidence that they will be manufactured and designed lets say in Germany , 100EU each for millions and millions of people and then billions will also be only a coincidence .

Then comes the Fart detector so one can pay for Global warming (1EU per Fart?) also linked to the credit card via a satellite link direct .

I named this phenomenon a few years back , its called Neurosity (Neur os ity) , squid heads like in Dark City movie .

Like this http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30290540 , using a gadget to get around , talk , think? yet claims its the demise ? , if only he had TV like 15? years ago , he could have kept up to speed by watching the Terminator movie series with Skynet and others like Predator , Stargate , HAL , and Red Dwarf and the likes ..

edited> actually it seems it does not watch Dr Who? either ..

[con-f-use]

I know it's your goto-response to blame the EU, when actually you and I are to blame. We didn't care for EU elections. We didn't listen when this stuff was debated and weighed in. We didn't protest, when only thrid-rate politicians went into EU politics. Now we are to blame for idiots in charge pushing through stupid ideas and listening to lobbyists. Go distribute your black-and-white worldview somewhere else. The EU wasn't responsible for the fary-tale economy in France or a Mafioso as head of state in Italy. Nor was it for greedy calculating banks that risked a lot and lost. I have been to Greece and seen their bloated, inefficient and lazily corrupt ways of not doing things. I for one enjoy being able to work in other EU countries, without (as much) paper work, paying in a common currency, being health ensured, not having to pay horrendous roaming or money transfer fees and not having a different charger for every electronic device I ever owned. I like not having to work more than 10h a day and I like teaching students in a EU funded course program. The real reason this stuff happens is because ordinary people become too compliant and self-important, lazy and comfortable. They rather talk big and blame a symptom for the disease.

Can we get back to the science of it? I'm not aware of any evidence indicating that this particular kind of EMR is harmful. Are you guys?

Fun fact: Turns out rats, that are isolated from background and EMF radiation are more prone to cancer and weak immune response. Turns out small constant  damages on the cellular level are actually required for the repair mechanisms to keep working efficiently. Its suspected that both immune response and DNA rapair atrophies without the stimulus of radiation.

[dannyf]

protect all the people from ever making a wrong decision.

That's the fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives: liberals believe that only the government can protect the people, and conservatives think people should be free to make their mistakes.

Then comes the Fart detector

I have a patent on that, .

Actually, it is not far fetched to think a tax will be levied on things that produce greenhouse gases: cows are the biggest offender there - there have been accidents where cow farmhouses blew up due to methane concentration and I'm not kidding here.

Actually, some form of methane collectors would be helpful.

[con-f-use]

The very word "conservative" (lat. conservare - to keep, to preserve, to retain) means they are static - as in conserve, don't change. The core of conservative belief is that change is bad. Actually liberal in the sense of the word means there should be no rules. In the US these words got twisted somehow (metaphor?). And please, how on earth should a man born poor or sick or handicapped protect himself from the mighty, without help? Don't the US have similar problems as the EU despite a stronger, in your sense of the word, conservative wing?

[G7PSK]

It is not voters lack of care about EU elections most of the rubbish starts in the unelected council of ministers who come up with things like this and then had it to the EU parliament who can only rubber stamp it. The sale of chain mail underwear should go up.

[dannyf]

the unelected council of ministers

Democracy has become tyranny of majority.

[Zero999]

To be absolutely clear, we are talking about EMF fields that cause significant warming of human tissue, not far off causing actual burns. Welders tend not to notice because they are holding a very hot welding torch in their hand anyway, so it's important to check the equipment periodically.

I can't see why anything needs to change. When it starts to burn, you move your hand away because it's too hot. A lot of the heat will be through conduction, some from radiation (probably mostly due to incandescence than current flow).

The only parts of the body which are really at risk are those without pain receptors or little blood flow, such as the eyes, brain and groin which should be far enough away from the weld and/ appropriately shielded a the wavelength/frequency which causes the heating.

[G7PSK]

Once the British health and safety get hold of it there will be mandatory requirement for every engineering workshop to have a written statement on file as to the amount of magnetic field exposure for workers and procedures on limiting said exposure. I have had health and safety and fire officers tell me that I could not have acetylene cylinders in the workshop due to it being inflammable, would be of no use if it was not. I have filing cabinets full of cosh sheets on everything even if they just say substance is harmless, if I did not health and safety could ask to see the cosh sheet along with a written report as to handling etc, if not ready to hand I can get hefty fines. A lot of it is bureaucratic nonsense  and a nightmare. It would of course be no better if we were not in the EU and most likely worse.

[GEuser]

A little bit here , a little bit there , just little bits over time (years) , exponential and accumulative , no one really notices , then

and in the meantime Ha Ha Ha Ha

imo of course this time .

[hamdi.tn]

This all makes sense actually , then everyone will have to wear a EMF meter detector and it'll only be a coincidence that they will be manufactured and designed lets say in Germany , 100EU each for millions and millions of people and then billions will also be only a coincidence .

Then comes the Fart detector so one can pay for Global warming (1EU per Fart?) also linked to the credit card via a satellite link direct .

I named this phenomenon a few years back , its called Neurosity (Neur os ity) , squid heads like in Dark City movie .

Like this http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30290540 , using a gadget to get around , talk , think? yet claims its the demise ? , if only he had TV like 15? years ago , he could have kept up to speed by watching the Terminator movie series with Skynet and others like Predator , Stargate , HAL , and Red Dwarf and the likes ..

edited> actually it seems it does not watch Dr Who? either ..

i said the same thing when i was asked to design a PCB to control water level in some water purification solution. As they explained to me, law in France forbid that you just link your indoor sanitation network directly to the public network but you have to install some kind of container and filter so you only throw back to the network a "clean" filtered water and you end up with a tank full of shit, that you have to buy and install and check level every once in a while, and call some specialised company to clean it ... and exactly what i said, the law created the opportunity for some ppl to make money.  and force citizen to pay money for a useless service. i can only think that some rich bastard are forcing political decision to get even more rich, that's how the world work anyway since human kind exist, this will not change soon.

[GEuser]

This all makes sense actually , then everyone will have to wear a EMF meter detector and it'll only be a coincidence that they will be manufactured and designed lets say in Germany , 100EU each for millions and millions of people and then billions will also be only a coincidence .

Then comes the Fart detector so one can pay for Global warming (1EU per Fart?) also linked to the credit card via a satellite link direct .

I named this phenomenon a few years back , its called Neurosity (Neur os ity) , squid heads like in Dark City movie .

Like this http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-30290540 , using a gadget to get around , talk , think? yet claims its the demise ? , if only he had TV like 15? years ago , he could have kept up to speed by watching the Terminator movie series with Skynet and others like Predator , Stargate , HAL , and Red Dwarf and the likes ..

edited> actually it seems it does not watch Dr Who? either ..

i said the same thing when i was asked to design a PCB to control water level in some water purification solution. As they explained to me, law in France forbid that you just link your indoor sanitation network directly to the public network but you have to install some kind of container and filter so you only throw back to the network a "clean" filtered water and you end up with a tank full of shit, that you have to buy and install and check level every once in a while, and call some specialised company to clean it ... and exactly what i said, the law created the opportunity for some ppl to make money.  and force citizen to pay money for a useless service. i can only think that some rich bastard are forcing political decision to get even more rich, that's how the world work anyway since human kind exist, this will not change soon.

You mean Merde  , out here we nearly had forced on us to drink merde/piss and everything else water that had been "cleaned" to supposedly drinking safe quality , people just have no idea what goes down a dunny and its not just shit and piss , anyway it rained and so far we got out of that but I bet its still on the agenda as you have mentioned there will be money in it and saving the planet , they be really really sicko bastards out there  .

It'll all end and change eventually no doubt about it , When everything dies and the planet with them .

[Zero999]

I can't see why anything needs to change. When it starts to burn, you move your hand away because it's too hot. A lot of the heat will be through conduction, some from radiation (probably mostly due to incandescence than current flow).

You have an arc welder in your hand. It's a hot environment anyway. You are wearing protective clothing that makes you even hotter. Are you sure you would notice the warming effect if it was enough to harm you but not enough to cause noticeable burns? People who have looked into this, studying the effects over many decades on workers, say you might not. Companies that care about their employees already do these checks for this reason.

There are plenty of pain receptors in the hands which are not a particularly vulnerable part of the body, as far as heating is concerned. The regulations are bullshit. The power level is far too low for any significant heating to occur (look at the numbers, the amount of absorbed energy is tiny, especially at the very low frequencies used in welding). Like you say it's in a hot environment anyway, so there will be more heat transferred to your hands by conduction, than anything else.

I recall similar legislation calling into question whether radiographers should be exposed to the strong field created by MRI scanners, despite the fact it's never shown to do anyone any harm.

[G7PSK]

I can't see why anything needs to change. When it starts to burn, you move your hand away because it's too hot. A lot of the heat will be through conduction, some from radiation (probably mostly due to incandescence than current flow).

It's like talking to a brick wall 

You have an arc welder in your hand. It's a hot environment anyway. You are wearing protective clothing that makes you even hotter. Are you sure you would notice the warming effect if it was enough to harm you but not enough to cause noticeable burns? People who have looked into this, studying the effects over many decades on workers, say you might not. Companies that care about their employees already do these checks for this reason.
I have worked in the metal bashing world for 40 years done a lot of welding myself and known many welders. I have not come across any one who had cancer in the hand or arm not even people who insisted on tig welding without gloves and therefore exposed there hands and arm to high levels of UV. As far as I am concerned UV is the main risk I have seen people with nasty UV burns on ankles and legs and exposed parts of face and necks but no signs of UV damage on their hands, the skin on hands is remarkably resistant to UV and heat.

As they explained to me, law in France forbid that you just link your indoor sanitation network directly to the public network but you have to install some kind of container and filter so you only throw back to the network a "clean" filtered water

You don't see any problem with people being allowed to empty their septic tanks directly into the public sewers? Well, I happen to work in the water industry, and believe me you don't want to let people do that.

I have been in the metal bashing industry for 40 years and have never seen any one with cancer or any other trouble in the hands caused by welding other than the occasional idiot who grabbed the work just after welding without any gloves on.

[Zero999]

There are plenty of pain receptors in the hands which are not a particularly vulnerable part of the body, as far as heating is concerned.

The entire point, which is made clear if you bother to read the directive, is to protect against heating that doesn't cause pain but still damages your body. 

I did read the directive and it's total nonsense.

We're not talking about other internal organs such as the brain, where it's very possible for slight increases in temperature to cause tissue damage without any pain. Unlike other parts of the body, the hands which have enough pain receptors to tell the brain they're hot enough to be damaged. If it doesn't hurt your hands, then it's not hot enough to cause any damage.

That's also a moot point because impossible for the amount of low frequency electromagnetic radiation emitted by welding to cause such heating. Just look at the numbers: the amount of energy absorbed, by capacitive and inductive effects, is far too small.

[hamdi.tn]

You don't see any problem with people being allowed to empty their septic tanks directly into the public sewers? Well, I happen to work in the water industry, and believe me you don't want to let people do that.

actually i don't see the problem , here in Tunisia we use to have septic tanks 40 to 50 years ago ... cause there was practically no public sewers except some main city, but since this network is almost everywhere no one install this tank any more, and if the indoor sanitary network is well build , you rarely need to maintain , you can have problem with it every 5 to 10 year.
so yeah i can't see why i will put a septic tank at home again for so much money.

[timb]

mojo-chan is quickly becoming the forum's resident know-it-all nanny state white knight bleeding heart crusader.

Mojo-chan, you seem about 20-ish, with, let me guess, either access to money or wealthy parents. Is that about right?

Don't worry, your disease will cure itself once you're bitch slapped by the real world.


Sent from my Tablet

[ConKbot]

i said the same thing when i was asked to design a PCB to control water level in some water purification solution. As they explained to me, law in France forbid that you just link your indoor sanitation network directly to the public network but you have to install some kind of container and filter so you only throw back to the network a "clean" filtered water and you end up with a tank full of shit, that you have to buy and install and check level every once in a while, and call some specialised company to clean it ... and exactly what i said, the law created the opportunity for some ppl to make money.  and force citizen to pay money for a useless service. i can only think that some rich bastard are forcing political decision to get even more rich, that's how the world work anyway since human kind exist, this will not change soon.

Are we talking just household/office/commecial sewage with nothing more than what people produce directly (toilets, showers, sink) or an industrial application where they have to manage their water before they dump it into the public sewer.  I worked at a place that had lots of monitoring on water discharge lines to make sure solvent was low enough and the ph was correct so the industrial discharge was in compliance with their EPA license to use the public sewer. 

If the former, thats ridiculous,    Around here if there is no public sewer, after water runs though the settling tank it goes out into the leeching field to go back into the ground, though thats only feasible for a house with ~1/4 acre or more IIRC.  A public sewer that can handle anything barely more dirty than storm drain?  Could the infrastructure not handle it because it was absurdly outdated?  Why use scale of economy to your advantage when you can make everyone else pay 10x as much per pound for disposal. 

http://www.vice.com/video/you-dont-know-shit-part-1-811  Looks at NY's waste water treatment.  Solids get screened, processed, and some eventually makes it to composting, or a landfill.