EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: Homer J Simpson on January 27, 2014, 06:38:40 am
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Interesting article on NSA's capabilities.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-secret-toolbox-ant-unit-offers-spy-gadgets-for-every-need-a-941006.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-secret-toolbox-ant-unit-offers-spy-gadgets-for-every-need-a-941006.html)
and...
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nsa-uses-powerful-toolbox-in-effort-to-spy-on-global-networks-a-940969.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nsa-uses-powerful-toolbox-in-effort-to-spy-on-global-networks-a-940969.html)
Click on the interactive graphic to see details of the devices available.
Here is one my favorites cut and pasted from the article.
Rigged monitor cable.
"Computer Monitor Surveillance
Technicians at the NSA’s ANT division have developed a system that makes it possible to divert data from a computer monitor undetected. A component called RAGEMASTER is installed in the ferrite insulation on the video cable right behind the monitor plug. It emits a signal that is then “illuminated” by a radar unit located remotely from the building being monitored, and thus made visible for NSA workers. A complex system makes it possible to use this reflected, slightly altered radar signal to reconstruct what can be seen on the monitor of the computer under surveillance.
RAGEMASTER is a hardware implant to intercept image signals from VGA monitors. It works on a passive basis, with its signal being carried by reflection over externally broadcast radar waves. It is hidden in the ferrite insulation of the VGA monitor cable, which is located right behind the monitor plug."
(http://www.spiegel.de/static/happ/netzwelt/2014/na/v1/pub/img/Bildschirm/S3224_RAGEMASTER.jpg)
and yes it looks like they have a "catalog" of their available products.
Here are a couple more.
(http://www.spiegel.de/static/happ/netzwelt/2014/na/v1/pub/img/Wlan/S3224_NIGHTSTAND.jpg)
(http://www.spiegel.de/static/happ/netzwelt/2014/na/v1/pub/img/USB/S3223_COTTONMOUTH-I.jpg)
(http://www.spiegel.de/static/happ/netzwelt/2014/na/v1/pub/img/Raumueberwachung/S3224_LOUDAUTO.jpg)
(http://www.spiegel.de/static/happ/netzwelt/2014/na/v1/pub/img/Raumueberwachung/S3224_TAWDRYYARD.jpg)
KT
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Radar is so 1960. Polonium is the new 'flavor' of the day.
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You left out the coolest parts
(http://www.spiegel.de/static/happ/netzwelt/2014/na/v1/pub/img/USB/S3223_COTTONMOUTH-III.jpg)
(http://www.spiegel.de/static/happ/netzwelt/2014/na/v1/pub/img/USB/S3223_FIREWALK.jpg)
(http://www.spiegel.de/static/happ/netzwelt/2014/na/v1/pub/img/Rechner/S3223_JUNIORMINT.jpg)
(http://www.spiegel.de/static/happ/netzwelt/2014/na/v1/pub/img/Rechner/S3223_MAESTRO-II.jpg)
(http://www.spiegel.de/static/happ/netzwelt/2014/na/v1/pub/img/Rechner/S3223_TRINITY.jpg)
(http://www.spiegel.de/static/happ/netzwelt/2014/na/v1/pub/img/Wlan/S3224_SPARROW_II.jpg)
All that earlier than 2008. Imagine what they have now, or maybe they have switched tactics. Like going directly to chip manufacturers and weakening encryption and planting chip level backdoors.
Multichip modules (MCM) look cool, I wonder if they are actually used outside NSA?
EDIT: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4307/amd-launches-radeon-e6760 (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4307/amd-launches-radeon-e6760)
(http://images.anandtech.com/doci/4307/4600MCM.jpg)
I think some early intel quad core processor actually had two dual cores under it's IHS. So not that exoting thing.
http://fi.farnell.com/lantronix/xp1001000-05r/module-serial-to-ethernet-xport/dp/2115259?whydiditmatch=rel_3&matchedProduct=1297883 (http://fi.farnell.com/lantronix/xp1001000-05r/module-serial-to-ethernet-xport/dp/2115259?whydiditmatch=rel_3&matchedProduct=1297883)
(http://live.lewispr.com/lantronix/files/2010/04/Screen-shot-2010-04-26-at-3.41.12-PM.png)
Fully integrated serial to ethernet bridge, so those nsa things aren't anything special these days. Lantronix could easily make these even more compact, but it would increase price. No reason there couldn't be some spy stuff embedded in them.
Full embedded web server inside xport pro. And that's not new thing either.
http://fi.farnell.com/lantronix/xpp100200s-02r/mod-xportpro-serial-enet-encry/dp/2215012 (http://fi.farnell.com/lantronix/xpp100200s-02r/mod-xportpro-serial-enet-encry/dp/2215012)
http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/embedded-device-servers/xport-pro.html (http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/embedded-device-servers/xport-pro.html)
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Multichip modules (MCM) look cool, I wonder if they are actually used outside NSA?
Actually, MCM modules are not a new tech at all, though not very common in consumer stuff until recently. They were used mostly in obscure applications, where doing it the normal way was impossible. Mainframe CPUs, obscure processing stuff, google for images for multichip module, you'll find some beautiful tech, especially from IBM and the likes.
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A lot of this stuff looks like some of the cheap "spying" crap you can buy from China on sites like DealExtreme...
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A lot of this stuff looks like some of the cheap "spying" crap you can buy from China on sites like DealExtreme...
Who do you think China steals the designs from?
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These remind me of of "bug" circuits posted in Colin Mitchell's 'Talking Electronics' transistor books!
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Some of the equipment needs board level component replacement how do they arrange that surreptitiously.
Spying on one allies is not new the transatlantic cables have been taped by the British government since the first one was laid in 18** whatever the date was. There was one case that I read about at the start of WW1 where the British wanted to tell the US about German plots with Mexico but they did not want to let on that they were listening to transatlantic cables so they had to come up with an elaborate story about a break in at a Mexican embassy.
I would say that one has to assume that any conversation could be overheard one way or another so if you have something you don't want known keep it in your head ( I don't think they have mind reading machines yet).
But certainly if you are a crook or terrorist or government official somewhere you are better of running linux on your computer, perhaps this is why the German's are changing over to it apart from the cost.
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Now you've done it !! you've all gone and mentioned the 3 letters in Dave's forums and now you've got the 3-letter agency watching up Dave's arse now :)
and pictures too :( it's all downhill from here..
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You know a actually thought about that in the back of my mind.
I did post documents that are still officially classified as Top Secret by the US Government. They are all over the web thought and have been in the news.
I made it through last night without my front door being kicked in and I have been keeping the camera and mike on my phone covered up. I will check under the car later for the GPS tracker and stop using my router since it has probably had a back door installed on it. I am also going to take my keyboard apart and check for the hidden transmitter. :)
Seriously though at least read the second article posted. Read where they intercept ordered computers and electronics in the mail, modify the hardware and or software and then send the item on its way.
In my opinion it has gotten totally out of control with no oversight whatsoever. Every country needs to protect it's citizens and national interests but their is a legal framework to do this along with oversight and accountability.
Just harvesting all of the information you can looking for something someone may have done or be involved in is not right. What happen to probable cause and court orders?
The NSA has become a monster that apparently answers to no one.
Sorry but his gets me fired up.
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Homer you just need this, generously developed with government funds:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-23/tor-anonymity-software-vs-dot-the-national-security-agency (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-23/tor-anonymity-software-vs-dot-the-national-security-agency)
Our government couldn't waste money quite fast enough, so we decided to pit agencies against each other!
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heh. The last time I posted links to these, Geoffs deleted my post (without notification) and then when called out on it, argued that I'm always posting 'conspiracy crap'.
It's enjoyable watching the lala land denialists getting bludgeoned about the head with indisputable proof of actual severe, obnoxious and high level conspiracy, government or otherwise. Hey Geoffs, google Operation Northwoods.
One of my favorite web comics http://www.collectedcurios.com/sequentialart.php?s=872 (http://www.collectedcurios.com/sequentialart.php?s=872) recently summed it up:
(http://www.collectedcurios.com/SA_0872_small.jpg)
"willfully ignorant disposition". Heh, that's spot on.
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And as long as your posts push your own personal conspiracy theories, they will continue to be deleted.
This thread is about the technology behind the NSA spying and as such is completely on topic.
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NSA is roughly equivalent to mods on some forums, am I right? Too much power, no checks and balances, etc.
These devices are honestly pretty lame and the boards look handmade. I would be surprised if these aren't decoy data sheets, since spy agencies have been known to do that sort of thing.
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NSA is roughly equivalent to mods on some forums, am I right? Too much power, no checks and balances, etc.
These devices are honestly pretty lame and the boards look handmade. I would be surprised if these aren't decoy data sheets, since spy agencies have been known to do that sort of thing.
If you have an issue with moderation, I suggest you contact Dave. It's his forum and he sets the rules, not the moderators.
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Some of the equipment needs board level component replacement how do they arrange that surreptitiously....
I've been following that string of articles. From one of the earlier one (probably 2nd or 3rd), it suggested that delivery interception was the method. I.E.: equipment did not go from seller to shipper to user, between seller and end-user, an extra stop was added before or after shipping. Of course, even from stores, the store has to first receive a shipment from the factory. Stops can be added between the ship-from and the ship-to.
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NSA is roughly equivalent to mods on some forums, am I right? Too much power, no checks and balances, etc.
These devices are honestly pretty lame and the boards look handmade. I would be surprised if these aren't decoy data sheets, since spy agencies have been known to do that sort of thing.
If you have an issue with moderation, I suggest you contact Dave. It's his forum and he sets the rules, not the moderators.
Not this forum, others.
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The NSA has become a monster that apparently answers to no one.
Sorry but his gets me fired up.
Don't apologize for righteous anger. Pick up your sword/pen instead, and swing it hard. The NSA's activities have been beyond the pale for decades, and it's great now they are getting some serious blowback.
The people who should be sorry are the apologists ("If you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?"), the normalcy bias idiots ("no, this can't possibly be happening, it's just tin foil conspiracy, they'd never be able to do that without someone blabbing"), the paid shills ("I'm an expert in this field, and this doesn't happen because the swamp throbble precludes thimbulation. Anyone will tell you that.") and the well poisoners ("When Nibiru arrives, aliens with space beams will put a stop to the NSA.")
It's interesting to read the stuff involving passive re-radiators. Very difficult to detect.
One of the links that geoffs deleted was to an original source of the NSA ANT catalog set on http://cryptome.org/ (http://cryptome.org/) as several files:
http://cryptome.org/2013/12/nsa-tao-ant.pdf (http://cryptome.org/2013/12/nsa-tao-ant.pdf) to http://cryptome.org/2013/12/nsa-catalog.zip (http://cryptome.org/2013/12/nsa-catalog.zip)
Full thread sequence here:
http://everist.org/eevblog/20140104_deleted.txt (http://everist.org/eevblog/20140104_deleted.txt)
Speaking of spyware built into electronics hardware, it's probably a good time to mention this again.
Here's a pic of some things called the Intel Yellow Books. They are processor system design documents, that Intel denies exist.
The way it works is this. If you're a person or company wanting to design a system board (PC or whatever) using Intel architecture CPU and support chips, you go to Intel's site and download the public data sheets for the chips. They appear to be complete, so you start designing and place some orders for chips.
A while later you have a board designed and populated, but when you try it out it doesn't work. No problem, it's very complex right? You probably just missed some detail. So you contact Intel. They are very helpful - talking with you at length about your design, who you are, what you want to do with it, and so on. Checking you out.
If they decide that you are kosher (and I chose that word carefully) you get a visit from a nice Intel man. After you sign an extreme non-disclosure agreement, in which you swear to deny even the existence of these manuals, he gives you a set of yellow books like these. "Here, these contain a few details that may have been omitted, or typos or whatever in the data you already have."
It turns out it's impossible to get an Intel system working without the Yellow books. They form a kind of gateway, preventing 'disruptive technology use' since only vetted customers will be able to produce working systems.
So far as I know this applies to ALL Intel processors since way back sometime around the Pentium II or III. It's hard to know, since as I said, their very existence is secret.
A friend who dealt with a PC motherboard manufacturer in Taiwan, tells me those guys hinted to him that there's an even higher level of Intel secret docs, called the Gray Books. That only large scale board makers get to see.
The point of all this, is that there can be any degree of backdoor trickery built into processor systems these days, and we'd never know. Because the people who do know all have serious NDAs wrapped around them. It's only through some exceptional circumstances that I have these and know the story behind them. No, don't ask.
Modern processing hardware (and software) is about as far from open design as it's possible to go, without barbed wire and jackboots.
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Well if the intercept the delivery the obvious thing that any crook or spook would do is walk into a store somewhere and hand over cash and walk out with the goods. The NSA cannot intercept and alter all deliveries to stores around the world, they have to have a target in sight and hope they make a mail order purchase. :scared:
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That's it, time to dust my tinfoil hat.
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I've been following that string of articles. From one of the earlier one (probably 2nd or 3rd), it suggested that delivery interception was the method. I.E.: equipment did not go from seller to shipper to user, between seller and end-user, an extra stop was added before or after shipping. Of course, even from stores, the store has to first receive a shipment from the factory. Stops can be added between the ship-from and the ship-to.
Gives a good excuse to always do a good ole teardown on brand new equipment then doesn't it ;) .. not that we need any reason for one in the first place.
I think typical PC users and even electronic hobbies like myself would have a hard time finding the well hidden bugs. It would take someone with real experience to spot something well hidden stuff.
This brings up a funny picture in my mind: A Monty Phython lion tamer type, looking at a CPU up and down, top and bottom, left and right, to make sure he doesn't see a bug stuck to it and no cable goes from under the CPU to the phone line.
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An off topic post by TerraHertz has been removed*.
I assumed the purpose of this thread was to discuss the technology that the NSA were using 4 or 5 years ago, not a general discussion on the NSA themselves.
I admire the way you blend together an implication that these NSA tools are not currently used, with an attempt to impose an extremely narrow interpretation of what the tread is about, as justification for deleting a post containing links to the original pdfs of the OPs illustrations, and about the morals of using these tools, and an example of a similar kind of technological secretive behavior.
I have been following Spiegel for years, so I read all the articles in that string. I can confirm that Spiegel reports indicates that the bugging tools are currently in use.
Not only are the tools still current in used, in fact, they were drastically increased since 2009 (or 2010). The increase in intercepted data stored was 4X or 10X. (from memory of the article, not sure if it was 4X or 10X increase. But 4X or 10X is still drastic). People involved (assigned) to this effort also drastically increase...
Those articles are likely still on line.
"Every smart phone a listening device." That was the goal. Are they there yet? Who knows. Those who knows certainly would not tell us about it.
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My suspicion on this is that they have advanced to the point where they have their own fab facility.
Most likely able to produce clone Intel, AMD or whatever. Visibly and functionally identical to the original. Then with the "added special features".
If they can intercept a PC or device from the manufacture to the end user now what's preventing them from doing that from the chip manufactures to the OEM's.
Neither the Chip manufacture or the OEM's would have any idea.
Untold numbers of devices would have built in back doors and know one would have any idea.
Not trying to be conspiracy theorist.
It just seems a logical step in the evolution of their technology.
........as scary as it is.
Also, what's to stop the Chinese from doing the same to us. All of the components in military hardware and communications equipment. We already know of the clone copies of real chips are out their. They try to work as advertised but lack quality. Very hard to detect.
KT
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Easy solution to the phone spying problem: just add a micro switch on your phone's outer case that disconnects the mic(s) from their data pins. Probably wouldn't be as easy for an iOSpy device as it'd be on an Android.
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Easy solution to the phone spying problem: just add a micro switch on your phone's outer case that disconnects the mic(s) from their data pins. Probably wouldn't be as easy for an iOSpy device as it'd be on an Android.
What gives you the idea that they will be using the standard mic? They don't even have to use the standard battery.
It could be a chip with built in capacitor and built in video camera or audio mic. You can rip out the battery, rip out the mic, and the chip is still in there under a what you thought was an "electrical-noise" shield can. Or it can be openly exposed with a familiar part number but no logo - some "generic part" that looks like it belongs. No logo to look generic so as to ensure there is no investigation into fake parts... Short of de-capping the darn thing and analyzing the signals, you may never know.
Heck, they can even court-order the well known manufacturer to cooperate and insert the needed part into the real genuine chip.
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Come on guys, feeling anything but some kind of weird adoration and pride at the state of Anglo-Saxon sigint is irrational and unpatriotic. :)
For one, even if you aren't a US citizen, if you're a Westerner, or otherwise a member of a secular, West-friendly nation, then all this technology goes into your safety.
Also, if you are still pissed off about the stuff spies do these days, there's not much you can do about it, is there? So just enjoy the show and stay out of criminal conspiracies. ;)
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
Just a thought.
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Bad thing about backdoors you never know who will use them. Who wouldn't want more backdoors and weakened security features in their devices?
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Come on guys, feeling anything but some kind of weird adoration and pride at the state of Anglo-Saxon sigint is irrational and unpatriotic. :)
For one, even if you aren't a US citizen, if you're a Westerner, or otherwise a member of a secular, West-friendly nation, then all this technology goes into your safety.
Also, if you are still pissed off about the stuff spies do these days, there's not much you can do about it, is there? So just enjoy the show and stay out of criminal conspiracies. ;)
re: For one, even if you aren't a US citizen, if you're a Westerner, or otherwise a member of a secular, West-friendly nation, then all this technology goes into your safety.
I would not make the assumption that it merely goes into our safety. Power begets power. Power corrupts.
Don't forget, there was a senate/congress hearing about IRS (tax authority of USA) targeting opposition groups. Not one single opposition group was authorized during the past election whereas a senior IRS staff personally back-dated the late application of a supporting group and authorized this supporting group - while no opposition group got authorized. That such back-dating happened, and that opposing groups were asked the "contents of the prayers" are testimony in the public records. This is her (this IRS senior staffer is a she) own testimony in the US Congress/Senate and not hear-say stuff. This is now a closed case because our own "law enforcement" proclaimed there is nothing to investigate. I used to think "back dating" a federal document is committing as fraud against the federal government and thus a crime. But I suppose "it depends".
If the IRS can be used against opposition, why not NSA and it's technologies?
I would not for a moment assume that this is for my safety alone. I am sure it started as that, but if you believe Spiegel's articles, it certainly did not stop there.
re: Also, if you are still pissed off about the stuff spies do these days, there's not much you can do about it, is there?
You are also wrong about there is "nothing we can do about it". We can stop misusing technology. We can stop whoever is misusing NSA. In Nixon's impeachment paper for congress to consider, one of the clause was using IRS against his opponents. With freedom comes responsibility. We elect our leaders and we must make sure our leaders do the right thing. The technology is there today - we can phone our elected reps, or email them, or whatever. So you can use technology to stop technology abuse.
Technology itself is not evil nor is it intrinsically moral - or not. It is how we use technology. I think fusion power is our future. But fusion power is also what drives nuclear bomb.
We can use technology to do the most despicable thing we can imagine, or use it to do the most beneficial thing we can imagine. Technology give us the power to do things. What things we choose to do with the technology is up to us. The technology is merely as moral as we are - no more, no less.
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Come on guys, feeling anything but some kind of weird adoration and pride at the state of Anglo-Saxon sigint is irrational and unpatriotic. :)
For one, even if you aren't a US citizen, if you're a Westerner, or otherwise a member of a secular, West-friendly nation, then all this technology goes into your safety.
Also, if you are still pissed off about the stuff spies do these days, there's not much you can do about it, is there? So just enjoy the show and stay out of criminal conspiracies. ;)
What?! Are you serious?
Hmm... I don't think this forum is suitable for the reply I'd like to make. Especially since geoffs is playing delete-undelete-delete games again. Now one post I made in this thread and he deleted is restored, but his announcement of that deletion and my reply to him are deleted. Gee, and I wasn't even rude. Ah well, you know where to see it.
Anyway, to address the "It's all for your safety" point, no it isn't. It's mostly about commercial industrial espionage. For instance this report:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/26/edward-snowden-nsa-industrial-sabotage (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/26/edward-snowden-nsa-industrial-sabotage)
Edward Snowden tells German TV that NSA is involved in industrial espionage.
This has been going on for decades. Even back when the 'big secret' snooping program was called Echelon, which involved NATO countries capturing and analyzing all the comms they could. (Which was about 98% of all electronic comms, including domestic and international traffic, and I have that figure from someone who worked as head of a high level Sydney branch Intercepts Division.) In 2001 the French/European government held an inquiry into Echelon, and concluded that the US was using Echelon as a tool of industrial espionage against French economic interests. Bear in mind that France was/is a member of NATO, and Echelon was _supposed_ to be a NATO security system.
Btw, the current vagueness over whether the NSA captures phone voice conversations, or just the call records, is disinformation. Even back in 2001 the spy agencies were automatically in real time running ALL voice traffic through voice to text then keyword searches. For the keywords Echelon used a system of 'dictionaries', in which each NATO member provided a list of terms of interest, then these were combined into one dictionary which was distributed to all intercept sites. To get around the legal issues in each member country, the intercept sites in each country were declared foreign diplomatic areas, ie in (say) London the sites would be US or German diplomatic ground. When conversations of interest were captured, the Echelon system would forward them to local national authorities as diplomatic intelligence. 'Information received from a friendly foreign nation' - no legal problems.
Another detail was that any communication that got a dictionary keyword hit, regardless of whether later human analysis decided it was significant or not, was stored *permanently*. It's hard to imagine how much stuff there must be in that store by now.
Our taxes at work, 'protecting' us. Sigh.
"there's not much you can do about it, is there? So just enjoy the show and stay out of criminal conspiracies."
Pfft.
Oh, I'm not sure of your intention. Do you mean the (solidly established) unconstitutional spying activities are criminal, or acts of opposing them are criminal?
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One might consider he was being sarcastic.
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Brother, can you spare a diamond?
"Scientist" reply posting reminded me of something - by his name "Scientist".
Technology is also the solution to the misuse of technology in this spying. I recall an article I read a few weeks back. Can't find it, but find probably an updated one:
Link to article China in race to build first code-breaking quantum supercomputer:
http://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/technology/article/1401755/china-race-create-first-quantum-code-breaking-supercomputer (http://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/technology/article/1401755/china-race-create-first-quantum-code-breaking-supercomputer)
I think the author should focus more on the work with "entangled pair" that could make the encryption unbreakable. But he did wrote something on that a month or so back which I was searching for just now and couldn't find it.
Do a search for "China Quantum Computing" and you will find a lot of references to the Chinese work. It looks like they have been at it since 2010 and making progress:
(2010 article Summary:) Most candidate systems for quantum computing work only at very low temperatures. Now a team of researchers from China may have a warmer solution. The team is exploring the capabilities of diamond nitrogen vacancy materials.
(article itself:)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100629170945.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100629170945.htm)
However, what the Chinese government can do to prevent others from intercepting their message, us average joe cannot do. I looked up the name of the head guy a few weeks back when I first saw the article. He is no average Joe. Cavendish Laboratory/Cambridge University with quite a long list of accolades. They just may get there before others.
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Why do you think high speed DSA equipment is a prohibited export? It can scan fast enough to get the chirps of data and show they are not just random noise.
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I notice that one of the devices runs Linux. I wonder if the NSA are obeying the GPL?
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Come on guys, feeling anything but some kind of weird adoration and pride at the state of Anglo-Saxon sigint is irrational and unpatriotic. :)
For one, even if you aren't a US citizen, if you're a Westerner, or otherwise a member of a secular, West-friendly nation, then all this technology goes into your safety.
Not sure, if troll, joking or insane. In THEORY, you are right. In practice you are not. This would work if you can guarantee that all the employees and leaders have a completely honest, incorruptible and most importantly GOOD (by your definition) agenda, that the chain of command is straightforward, simple and clean of outside influences, AND posts are only occupied by intelligent, competent, rational and well meaning people. Can you say that about ANY larger part of your/any government, let alone the whole of it? Can you say with all honesty, that you completely and utterly trust your government to do the right thing?
If so, you are either naive, or extremely lucky to be living in... I dunno, Candyland Beyond The Rainbow? I know I can't say that about my government.
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Is anyone on this forum actually concerned that the NSA might be spying on them? Do you really think you're interesting enough?
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I know for a fact that the NSA is collecting information on me, but I can't imagine they'd be interested enough in me to actually analyze that data. Even if they did, they wouldn't find anything nefarious. Collecting and storing the information on everybody in the world isn't costing the NSA more than a power bill and extra hard drives at this point (since they just completed their new data center). I'm sure they are also running all kinds of algorithms on the collected data to weed out the interesting bits. It doesn't overly concern me, but it is blatantly unconstitutional in America. Not that anybody in Washington DC gives half a shit about what is Constitutional these days.
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The sad part is that the Russians handed the Boston Bombers to the Feds on a silver platter and the feds essentially ignored the warnings.
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Is anyone on this forum actually concerned that the NSA might be spying on them? Do you really think you're interesting enough?
This is like encouraging everyone to go hit someone on the street, as long as it is not you. It is not about "you" it is about everyone...
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Is anyone on this forum actually concerned that the NSA might be spying on them? Do you really think you're interesting enough?
I have read this exact statement on many forums. I always ask the same questions......
Why didn't you fill in all of the information about yourself on this forum? Why didn't you use your real name instead of "nihilism"? You posted NOTHING about yourself. NOTHING!!!
You did not even put your gender or age or country you are from.
What are you afraid of?
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The fact that wiping their asses with the constitution doesn't concern you isn't very encouraging either.
Who said it doesn't concern me? I used to be an alarmist and tried to encourage people to vote for 3rd party candidates to try to fix the system from the inside. I guess I'm just a defeatist now. I don't think it's possible to reverse the course our government is on. I'm just waiting for it to inevitably collapse under its own weight. Eventually, the rest of the world is going to stop taking the dollar since it's printed on toilet paper now. When that happens, the USA is going to fall...hard.
Don't think it can happen? Neither did the Romans.
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00300 78389 89535 87019 49073 32472 91259 86989 38094 38898 66585 89960
0030330962 49517 75834 29851 43682 42472 43467 40719 15673 06409 54277
00301 27755 98185 29481 03559 60851 33868 56611 92166 30082 12600 85741
00306 87033 67676 18443 16011 86097 12379 57368 00502 37078 76809 14376
00304 57508 66911 89708 63482 24236 98011 96177 72072 90160 89094 28736
:-DD :-DD :-DD
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Yes they would. Everyone has broken the law at least once, and even if they can't find evidence of that they can surely find something to embarrass you with. Keep in mind they have access to all your communications and your location any time you have your phone on you or are driving. Even if you really are whiter than white they could just invent some stuff because no-one can check it and if prosecuted you wouldn't even be allowed to see it.
Not that prosecution is necessary or even desirable. Blackmail and threats are easier. Look at how they tried to handle the Snowden leaks, threatening and harassing journalists. Imagine what it's like for people they aren't even slightly afraid of.
you got it right there.
A recent example is a woman who left the Air Force in 2010? after trying to debunk the chem trailing conspiracy fact... she discovered the US Air Force buys the aluminum oxide and other chemicals through their over the counter requisition system... so 3 year long story in two sentences: she stopped approving the tons and tons of the shit until they would tell her what they needed it for... and she very quickly discovered she's just a pawn. after being moved to another duty station, the CO calls her into the office, says: "i can involuntarily detain you for 120 days for a mental health evaluation. Who would take care of your kids?"
When that happens, the USA is going to fall...hard.
Don't think it can happen? Neither did the Romans.
when it happens, the sheep will blame the shepherds who said don't follow your friends off the cliff.
btw: America's welfare class today is as large as the entire population was ~100 years ago.
lack of food won't even be the first problem this time around. what is it, 30% of the population is on psychotropic drugs?
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Since only 1% of the document leak has been published, I wonder if they are holding on to some really mind-boggling stuff. And to even start imagining the ultra-mind-boggling stuff being in development right now...
This is the approved part of the leak. Crazy stuff!
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A recent example is a woman who left the Air Force in 2010? after trying to debunk the chem trailing conspiracy fact... she discovered the US Air Force buys the aluminum oxide and other chemicals through their over the counter requisition system... so 3 year long story in two sentences: she stopped approving the tons and tons of the shit until they would tell her what they needed it for... and she very quickly discovered she's just a pawn. after being moved to another duty station, the CO calls her into the office, says: "i can involuntarily detain you for 120 days for a mental health evaluation. Who would take care of your kids?"
I've had it with this chemtrail :bullshit: :bullshit: :bullshit: . Who buys aluminium oxide "over the counter"!?! What the #$@ does that even mean? The cashier hands them a 5-ton carton of the stuff over the counter?
Aluminium oxide is what rubies and sapphires are made of... a better conspiracy theory would be that the Army is selling gems to Middle Easterners to sponsor their endeavours overseas.
The bioavailability of aluminium oxide by consumption is less than 0.1%, according to NIH, (source:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782734/), and inhalation in Al2O3-concentrated environments (like al2o3 factories) is about 2%. Do you work in an aluminum oxide factory? Then shut up.
The assumption that dust or solute, dumped in aerosolized form into the jet stream will somehow get over the land of the US and "mind control" people is absolutely batshit. If you knew anything about climatology you would be fully aware that air 10 miles above you has rarely left that area, and the air 100 miles up can cross the globe in a matter of minutes.
I will be pretty disappointed if I see the conspiracy theory nuts start flocking to this forum to discuss bullshit. Stay on topic (NSA) and you will be fine.
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I will be pretty disappointed if I see the conspiracy theory nuts start flocking to this forum to discuss bullshit.
Be careful, there... Do you mean that you are comfortable with the coincidence theory nuts (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/another-buzz-of-nuclear-weapon-and-america-general-discussion/msg106548/#msg106548)bullshit (using your own wording)?
After all, it is widely known that: Chemtrails DO NOT exist! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEDhj0d_2FQ#)
Do you want an authoritarian scientific position (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_verecundiam) on chemtrails?
According Dr. Jaspery Kirkby, a CERN researcher,
- "There's plenty of evidence that large regions of the climate are lacking sufficient aerosol to form clouds. Contrails are a well known example of that. These are not smoke trails, these are clouds which are seeded by jets dumping aerosols into the upper atmosphere."
Directly from the CERN Document Server: http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1181073 (http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1181073)
Sorry for the off-topic,
-George
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Disney & NSA Indoctrination (3min) Disney NSA Drones - Horrifying Disney & NSA Indoctrination Cartoon (Video with Lyrics) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRZWEs3VStQ#ws)
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That video, purporting to show 'chemical trails', in fact depicts aircraft jettisoning fuel and possibly some cloud seeding too.
Fuel jettisoning is usually done at mid altitudes, to reduce landing weight after an aircraft malfunction necessitating a return to the departure airfield. It can take an hour or so, to dump 60 tons of fuel.
It is normally done in a specific authorized area, above 5000 feet, so that the evaporating fuel doesn't reach the ground.
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That was a film of a plane dumping fuel and loosing height rapidly judging from the flap and air brake operation.
When the Victor tankers were operating from Marham I used to see that quite regularly, apart from the dumping to land they leaked like a sieve.
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00300 78389 89535 87019 49073 32472 91259 86989 38094 38898 66585 89960
0030330962 49517 75834 29851 43682 42472 43467 40719 15673 06409 54277
00301 27755 98185 29481 03559 60851 33868 56611 92166 30082 12600 85741
00306 87033 67676 18443 16011 86097 12379 57368 00502 37078 76809 14376
00304 57508 66911 89708 63482 24236 98011 96177 72072 90160 89094 28736
Roger. We are sending the drones.
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Going right back to the origin of the whole NSA spying revelations, an excellent and thoughtful interview with Edward Snowden has come out.
http://benswann.com/media-blacks-out-new-snowden-interview-the-government-doesnt-want-you-to-see/ (http://benswann.com/media-blacks-out-new-snowden-interview-the-government-doesnt-want-you-to-see/)
It seems that mainstream news outlets worldwide are refusing to carry this, and it gets taken down from most video streaming sites. But it's still available at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151)
Many fascinating details in that interview, including on the NSA's capabilities. He's a very intelligent man, and a great hero. Well worth watching, to bear in mind next time you hear some govt. flunky slandering him.
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00300 78389 89535 87019 49073 32472 91259 86989 38094 38898 66585 89960
0030330962 49517 75834 29851 43682 42472 43467 40719 15673 06409 54277
00301 27755 98185 29481 03559 60851 33868 56611 92166 30082 12600 85741
00306 87033 67676 18443 16011 86097 12379 57368 00502 37078 76809 14376
00304 57508 66911 89708 63482 24236 98011 96177 72072 90160 89094 28736
Roger. We are sending the drones.
Have you cracked it.? :-+
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@G7PSK : from your forum nym I am guessing you are a ham (I am not) and from the blocks of five digit numbers I am guessing this is a partial recording of one of those soviet/russian number stations. Am I correct so far? If that is the case then it likely is imposible to decode as those are rumoured to be one-time pads. Unless you have the pad or they get sloppy again and reuse some randomness. They supposedly did that mistake with some eastern europe embassy traffic in the fifties.
edit for spelling
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Is anyone on this forum actually concerned that the NSA might be spying on them? Do you really think you're interesting enough?
I have read this exact statement on many forums. I always ask the same questions......
Why didn't you fill in all of the information about yourself on this forum? Why didn't you use your real name instead of "nihilism"? You posted NOTHING about yourself. NOTHING!!!
You did not even put your gender or age or country you are from.
What are you afraid of?
None of that was a requirement for registration. What can i say? I'm lazy.
I guess being an Australian it makes it hard for me to understand the endemic paranoia of US citizens.
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The main reason people are thrifty with personal information, is to protect themselves from scammers and identity thieves, not so much to prevent their own government snooping. In the 'free' world that is.
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Going right back to the origin of the whole NSA spying revelations, an excellent and thoughtful interview with Edward Snowden has come out.
http://benswann.com/media-blacks-out-new-snowden-interview-the-government-doesnt-want-you-to-see/ (http://benswann.com/media-blacks-out-new-snowden-interview-the-government-doesnt-want-you-to-see/)
It seems that mainstream news outlets worldwide are refusing to carry this, and it gets taken down from most video streaming sites. But it's still available at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151)
Many fascinating details in that interview, including on the NSA's capabilities. He's a very intelligent man, and a great hero. Well worth watching, to bear in mind next time you hear some govt. flunky slandering him.
So... what if he's just Putin's boy?
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The main reason people are thrifty with personal information, is to protect themselves from scammers and identity thieves, not so much to prevent their own government snooping. In the 'free' world that is.
Scammers and identity thieves can be dealt with.
Who do you go to when the problem is your government?
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To the ballot box.
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Add the Canadian Government too.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/csec-used-airport-wi-fi-to-track-canadian-travellers-edward-snowden-documents-1.2517881 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/csec-used-airport-wi-fi-to-track-canadian-travellers-edward-snowden-documents-1.2517881)
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To the ballot box.
Both parties are bad and people won't vote for a third party although that could be changing in the near future.
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@ chickenHeadKnob. You are sort of right, Its a superenciphered code thats around 70 years old, The starting language is Japanese, the allies called the code JN25. It was quite regularly read at least partially back in those days despite the starting point being a one time substitution pad before then being coded and recoded with one time additive's. Should be a walk in the park for the NSA, after all John Tiltman and his team were doing it all by hand.
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What surprises me is that no one has yet mentioned the TOR project (https://www.torproject.org/ (https://www.torproject.org/)) this has had money from the US government and allows any one to evade tracking on the net, although as there is government money involved the NSA may have a back door to it.
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Have you cracked it.? :-+
Why to crack it? It's clear text in the captured key stream from your keyboard.
;-)
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@ chickenHeadKnob. You are sort of right, Its a superenciphered code thats around 70 years old, The starting language is Japanese, the allies called the code JN25. It was quite regularly read at least partially back in those days despite the starting point being a one time substitution pad before then being coded and recoded with one time additive's. Should be a walk in the park for the NSA, after all John Tiltman and his team were doing it all by hand.
You are being too kind, by sort of right you mean not even close! Unless that phrasing was sarcasm too subtile for this weak mind. Like in Canada you can buy throat lozenges called "Fishermans Friend" which are neither a fisherman nor your friend. I don't know any japanese so I have no chance on this one or any historical snippet of a purple cypher.
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To the ballot box.
Of which there are none in the USA. It's all electronic voting, using systems that have been absolutely established are heavily rigged, effectively to the point of the highest bidder winning each election. Incidentally the vote tallies are conducted by private companies - there's no such thing as the Electoral Commission as we have in Australia. Effectively the vote counting and reporting gets to be done by the media corporations. And it's been legally established by at least one court case in the US that the media corporations have _no_ legal obligation to be truthful in their reporting.
There are many astonishing cases of clear vote fraud each time the US has elections. Many claim that the US hasn't had a valid presidential election for over a decade.
Then there's the whole issue of how functional democracy is, when most people get all their news through six corporations that own virtually all the mainstream print and electronic news channels.
Two groups that tracks vote fraud:
http://blackboxvoting.org/ (http://blackboxvoting.org/)
http://www.votefraud.org/ (http://www.votefraud.org/)
http://everist.org/archives/links/_Vote_fraud_USA_links.txt (http://everist.org/archives/links/_Vote_fraud_USA_links.txt)
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To the ballot box.
Of which there are none in the USA. It's all electronic voting, using systems that have been absolutely established are heavily rigged, effectively to the point of the highest bidder winning each election. Incidentally the vote tallies are conducted by private companies - there's no such thing as the Electoral Commission as we have in Australia. Effectively the vote counting and reporting gets to be done by the media corporations. And it's been legally established by at least one court case in the US that the media corporations have _no_ legal obligation to be truthful in their reporting.
There are many astonishing cases of clear vote fraud each time the US has elections. Many claim that the US hasn't had a valid presidential election for over a decade.
Then there's the whole issue of how functional democracy is, when most people get all their news through six corporations that own virtually all the mainstream print and electronic news channels.
Two groups that tracks vote fraud:
http://blackboxvoting.org/ (http://blackboxvoting.org/)
http://www.votefraud.org/ (http://www.votefraud.org/)
http://everist.org/archives/links/_Vote_fraud_USA_links.txt (http://everist.org/archives/links/_Vote_fraud_USA_links.txt)
In the USA, our state elections are controlled by the states whereas the federal elections are controlled by the federal government. Federal elections are therefore more consistent (not to say it is well executed). That said, local elections managed by local governments can be much much worst.
While we have laws controlling the elections, but in practice it is difficult to use the laws to enforce adherence to proper behavior. I recall a California congressional election about two decades ago, a sitting congressman was defeated by a questionable vote count. He took it to the courts. By the time the courts finished and ruled the election improperly conducted, the two-year congressional term in question was already over. He never regained his rightful seat. The one who was really not lawfully elected served the entire term and was reelected - by then, the one who should have been lawfully serving was sidelined the whole term and was no longer in position to run against the illegally elected opponent in the following term.
In this pass cycle, we had a sitting congressman narrowly defeated - with (at least) one large district going to his opponent at 107% voter turn out - 107% meaning for every 100 voters, there was 107 votes. That large district's huge vote count decided the election - but with 107% turn out... This congressman did not take it to court perhaps learning from this former Californian congressman's financially costly court battles 2 decades ago. For this same election cycle, in some cases, we had over 140% turn out.
Math question: What is the probability of a candidate with 90% support to receive 19,000 votes in a roll? Even Putan's got just 95% of the vote, for heavens sake, at least try to make it look some what real. 6 precincts in that district, result: 19600 to 0...
I think our system here in the USA is too much designed by gentleman for a contest between gentlemen. When rules are not followed, our system kind of get caught with "deer in the head light" problem.
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Of which there are none in the USA. It's all electronic voting, using systems that have been absolutely established are heavily rigged,
Stalin had this observation about 100 years ago: “It doesn’t matter how the votes are cast, but how they’re counted.”
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So... what if he's just Putin's boy?
this is a legitimate concern but it requires that the same puppet master pulling both Putin's and Obama's strings..
which, incidentally, isn't really all that hard to believe..
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The main reason people are thrifty with personal information, is to protect themselves from scammers and identity thieves, not so much to prevent their own government snooping. In the 'free' world that is.
I completely agree with this. I assume the government monitors some/all of my communications to some degree, and am not at all worried about it (since I'm not a criminal, and not self-important enough to think anyone at the government is sitting around listing to my "extremely interesting" conversations). But I do worry a lot about identity theft which is a growing epidemic in this country and can be extremely painful if you're a victim. For that reason I am always stingy with my personal information.
A good example is the recent breach of data from Target stores. In fact my credit card was one of those that was compromised (and indeed had fraudulent charges within weeks). But because I was never dumb enough to give Target any personal information such as home address etc., the sum total of its effect on me was having my credit card reissued. Didn't cost me a cent. Those people dumb enough to sign up with their home address etc. to get Target's coupons and such have a much bigger risk of identity theft and scams. I give absolutely no information beyond what's required, and if they require too much I won't do business with them.
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The main reason people are thrifty with personal information, is to protect themselves from scammers and identity thieves, not so much to prevent their own government snooping. In the 'free' world that is.
I completely agree with this. I assume the government monitors some/all of my communications to some degree, and am not at all worried about it (since I'm not a criminal, and not self-important enough to think anyone at the government is sitting around listing to my "extremely interesting" conversations).
...
Not an usual mindset. I am sure Reinhard Heydrich was very pleased by the same mindset held by average Germans of the time. As a Navy discard (he was kicked out of the Navy) He rebuild his career with his then innovative database of people using index cards.
Mere index cards as easy to sort/access database was his technology innovation. Yet that simple innovation was enough to give him the ability to conduct intimation that he was one of the most feared by even the "non-criminal" fellow Nazi members.
Anything can be misused by bad people. That those Germans were not criminals doesn't mean information collected about them would not be used by criminals.
So, until I am assured that only self-less people like Mother Teresa works at the government, I would not think it is wise to give them tools so easy to abuse.
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The main reason people are thrifty with personal information, is to protect themselves from scammers and identity thieves, not so much to prevent their own government snooping. In the 'free' world that is.
I completely agree with this. I assume the government monitors some/all of my communications to some degree, and am not at all worried about it (since I'm not a criminal, and not self-important enough to think anyone at the government is sitting around listing to my "extremely interesting" conversations).
...
Not an usual mindset. I am sure Reinhard Heydrich was very pleased by the same mindset held by average Germans of the time. As a Navy discard (he was kicked out of the Navy) He rebuild his career with his then innovative database of people using index cards.
Mere index cards as easy to sort/access database was his technology innovation. Yet that simple innovation was enough to give him the ability to conduct intimation that he was one of the most feared by even the "non-criminal" fellow Nazi members.
Anything can be misused by bad people. That those Germans were not criminals doesn't mean information collected about them would not be used by criminals.
So, until I am assured that only self-less people like Mother Teresa works at the government, I would not think it is wise to give them tools so easy to abuse.
And that's not at all an unusual response to my mindset. I had a very long discussion about that with a friend in Germany a while back, and I'd submit that there are very significant differences between our society and theirs which makes something like that highly unlikely to occur here.
But, if you want to get into being paranoid about our government abusing its power, there is much more fruitful territory than fearing that our federal government will turn into something like Nazi Germany. For example, ever heard of "The good ol boy network"? It's very much for real, and you should take it very seriously - particularly if you live or travel anywhere in the southern US. It's no conspiracy per se, it's just what tends to spring up amongst *local* authorities in remote areas. I'm talking local cops, judges, city officials etc. I once got a first-hand glimpse into the goings on there (fortunately not as a victim), and I'll tell you straight up that if you cross the wrong person, those guys will just make you disappear. Obviously an extreme abuse of power, and it does and has existed here for a long time. But by its very nature it is local and finite. Its extents end at the boundary of local and federal government. In the rare cases that anything gets done about it, it's generally the federal government stepping in to clean things up.
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Further conversation about whether you think I am merely paranoid or I think you are merely naive will be too far from technology.
But who knows, may be indeed all those who is working for our government are indeed self-less people like Mother Teresa thus it is okay to give them tools so easy to abuse. I rather doubt it, but if you say so, I wont take your word for it but I wont argue.
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Further conversation about whether you think I am merely paranoid or I think you are merely naive will be too far from technology.
But who knows, may be indeed all those who is working for our government are indeed self-less people like Mother Teresa thus it is okay to give them tools so easy to abuse. I rather doubt it, but if you say so, I wont take your word for it but I wont argue.
I -didn't- say so. "self-less people like Mother Teresa" were your words, not mine, so don't attribute them to me. I've said nothing of the sort. I simply have more faith in our population to prevent something like Nazi Germany (also your reference not mine) than German society demonstrated as it was structured at that time.
But you are right about exactly one thing. This could easily turn into an ugly brawl that would serve no purpose other than to get this thread locked.
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Further conversation about whether you think I am merely paranoid or I think you are merely naive will be too far from technology.
But who knows, may be indeed all those who is working for our government are indeed self-less people like Mother Teresa thus it is okay to give them tools so easy to abuse. I rather doubt it, but if you say so, I wont take your word for it but I wont argue.
I -didn't- say so. "self-less people like Mother Teresa" were your words, not mine, so don't attribute them to me. I've said nothing of the sort. I simply have more faith in our population to prevent something like Nazi Germany (also your reference not mine) than German society demonstrated as it was structured at that time.
But you are right about exactly one thing. This could easily turn into an ugly brawl that would serve no purpose other than to get this thread locked.
Indeed those were my words. I was the one who said: "Until people who works for government are selfless like Mother Teresa" (or similar). I was just repeating what I said earlier to re-emphasize my view.
re: I simply have more faith in our population to prevent something like Nazi Germany
I brought it up to point out the power of information. As to faith in preventing something like Nazi Germany happening here, I am sure most Cambodians thought something like the Khmer Rouge couldn't possibly happen to them either.
German people of the time were good people too, they were too naive to think it couldn't happen to them. They buried their head in the sand and when they woke up, it was too late.
I have no faith in government leaders because I am keenly aware how power corrupts. You and I have different views. You simply have more trust in government in not misusing the information than I ever can.
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"US Tech Titans Reveal New Data About NSA Snooping"
http://business.time.com/2014/02/03/tech-titans-nsa/?xid=newsletter-daily (http://business.time.com/2014/02/03/tech-titans-nsa/?xid=newsletter-daily)
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It would appear that there are not enough snoopers, This advert is in the latest edition of radcom.
They are looking for people to work in Bude which is in Cornwall, very close to the transatlantic cables and satellite communications.
They don't even require degrees, they want school kid's. How are they going to keep anything secret, it will be plastered all over facebook. :-DD
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It would appear that there are not enough snoopers, This advert is in the latest edition of radcom.
They are looking for people to work in Bude which is in Cornwall, very close to the transatlantic cables and satellite communications.
They don't even require degrees, they want school kid's. How are they going to keep anything secret, it will be plastered all over facebook. :-DD
Oh, and how do we know you haven't embeded tracking macros and other sinister scripts into that PDF file you posted?
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It would appear that there are not enough snoopers, This advert is in the latest edition of radcom.
They are looking for people to work in Bude which is in Cornwall, very close to the transatlantic cables and satellite communications.
They don't even require degrees, they want school kid's. How are they going to keep anything secret, it will be plastered all over facebook. :-DD
you get them at that age so they don't ask questions when they are 30.
we've seen this before across the pond.
also, had a thought today... with the NSA saying they don't spy on congress unless there's a "terrorist" connection...
last time, wasn't it "communists" they were looking for?
And only but 60 years later, we've got a half breed communist in the white house!
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* The average is 6 degrees of separation between any two users on Facebook. The real value can be anywhere from 0 to 8,000, and infinity for users that don't have any friends or are only friends with mutual friends.
Why is there no way to unsubscribe from threads?
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I will be pretty disappointed if I see the conspiracy theory nuts start flocking to this forum to discuss bullshit.
Be careful, there... Do you mean that you are comfortable with the coincidence theory nuts (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/another-buzz-of-nuclear-weapon-and-america-general-discussion/msg106548/#msg106548)bullshit (using your own wording)?
After all, it is widely known that: Chemtrails DO NOT exist! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEDhj0d_2FQ#)
Do you want an authoritarian scientific position (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_verecundiam) on chemtrails?
According Dr. Jaspery Kirkby, a CERN researcher,
- "There's plenty of evidence that large regions of the climate are lacking sufficient aerosol to form clouds. Contrails are a well known example of that. These are not smoke trails, these are clouds which are seeded by jets dumping aerosols into the upper atmosphere."
Directly from the CERN Document Server: http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1181073 (http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1181073)
Sorry for the off-topic,
-George
:palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
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Here's a story for those NSA apologists who say "I have nothing to hide, so I don't mind being spied on, and I'm sure it's all in the national interest."
http://www.examiner.com/article/how-nsa-spies-ruin-1000s-of-america-s-greatest-people (http://www.examiner.com/article/how-nsa-spies-ruin-1000s-of-america-s-greatest-people)
How NSA spies ruin 1000s of America's greatest people
That's on top of the multiple sources of proof that the NSA spying is in large part commercially oriented, and has nothing to do with 'national security.'
In my opinion, people who are still OK with the NSA's activities are demonstrating not just a philosophical error, but multiple dimensions of moral cowardice. In a world in which the State has gone rogue and is committing criminal acts, if you *don't* have anything to hide you are failing to respond appropriately.
@Scientist, in what sense is it possible to 'subscribe' to eevblog threads at all? You could just avoid reading the thread if it unsettles you. Or better yet, save your time and don't bother posting dismissive replies to every comment that isn't pro-NSA, pro-US-govt.
Also, you were the *only* person that felt motivated to PM-question me about the origin of that photo of 'Intel secret Yellow Books' I posted.
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Here's a story for those NSA apologists who say "I have nothing to hide, so I don't mind being spied on, and I'm sure it's all in the national interest."
At least for me, you are putting words in my mouth. I don't have anything to hide, but sure as hell bothers me that my government is blatantly ignoring the Constitution. My apathy doesn't stem from lack of rage...it stems from the realization that I am literally powerless to stop it. There is only one politician in all of Washington DC that even pays lip service to reducing the size of government anymore, and that is Rand Paul. And he always falls somewhere between being completely ignored or ridiculed by other politicians and the main stream media. Our only options to reverse course is with the vote, but when nobody is running that represents your interests, how do you change anything by voting?
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Let's see....
Sherman's march to the sea
The genocide of native Americans
Japanese Interment camps
Gulf of Tonkin
The Pentagon Papers
Ruby Ridge
Branch Davidian Compound raid
Yet most most people somehow think this country is above the atrocities committed by other States in the course of history. Now so many people are just ok with giving the govt and it's agencies autonomous power over the citizens because they believe they're working to protect us? Wake Up! Never ever trust any government. Anybody that thinks that the NSA and other agencies aren't grossly abusing their power is delusional. There's an old saying that says power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I say power corrupts, and absolute power attracts the absolutely corrupt.
TerraHertz says people are exhibiting moral cowardice. I don't agree. I think the vast majority of people are so completely conditioned that they're incapable of thinking in any way counter to the official narrative and they will defend that position to their dying breath. That's not cowardice, it's subservience bordering on enslavement.
Voting? that's a joke! When you vote in a fully or even partially corrupt system you've relinquished your right to self determination to another person or group of people. And nobody has the right to grant another person or group the authority to control anybody else!
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Here's a story for those NSA apologists who say "I have nothing to hide, so I don't mind being spied on, and I'm sure it's all in the national interest."
http://www.examiner.com/article/how-nsa-spies-ruin-1000s-of-america-s-greatest-people (http://www.examiner.com/article/how-nsa-spies-ruin-1000s-of-america-s-greatest-people)
How NSA spies ruin 1000s of America's greatest people
That's on top of the multiple sources of proof that the NSA spying is in large part commercially oriented, and has nothing to do with 'national security.'
In my opinion, people who are still OK with the NSA's activities are demonstrating not just a philosophical error, but multiple dimensions of moral cowardice. In a world in which the State has gone rogue and is committing criminal acts, if you *don't* have anything to hide you are failing to respond appropriately.
@Scientist, in what sense is it possible to 'subscribe' to eevblog threads at all? You could just avoid reading the thread if it unsettles you. Or better yet, save your time and don't bother posting dismissive replies to every comment that isn't pro-NSA, pro-US-govt.
Also, you were the *only* person that felt motivated to PM-question me about the origin of that photo of 'Intel secret Yellow Books' I posted.
TerraHertz. Very well said.
And I will repeat a quote I posted earlier in this thread.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
KT