Author Topic: NVidia 3000 series.  (Read 8800 times)

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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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NVidia 3000 series.
« on: September 06, 2020, 09:19:10 am »
So any gamers out there - here's a napkin, wipe up your drool - will know the 3000 series is launched and set to go on sale September 17th.

There are many sources out there with full specs, but it can be summed up that the entry level base card 3070 will out perform the latest flagship 2080Ti and costs £450.  The 3090 is double the performance of the 2080Ti.  There will be a LOT of very, very sad 2080Ti purchasers and a LOT of S/H GPU traders screaming in pain in a few weeks.

My present PC is only nearly 3 years old, but I have that itch again.  But then it starts...

The new GPU actually makes good use of the PCI-e V4 bus, so I need a new Motherboard.  The new Motherboard will support the latest 3rd gen Ryzen 3800X, so I need a new CPU.  The new CPU will support faster RAM and I'll need more anyway for DCS World and FS2020.. so I need new RAM 32Gb.

When I tried to make a "hand me down" deal with my brother, his case won't handle my stuff, now will his PSU and I was hoping to keep my cooling systems.  However it looking like for that deal go to through I'll end up handing down the case and PSU and maybe the cooling systems too.

So that's a whole new PC, except for drives and I'm sorely tempted to go for a 1Tb MVeM2 drive anyway.

I'm off to go window shopping, wish me luck.

That said, what is unfortunately likely to happen is... 3080 goes on sale at £650 and immediately sells out.  All the websites put their price up to £950 and they all sell out, then it will settle at £1400 for months before falling again.
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Offline ebclr

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2020, 01:34:27 pm »
"The new GPU actually makes good use of the PCI-e V4 bus"

You can use PCIe3 with imperceptible performance degradation, It's not necessary to change anything , you are forcing a point
 
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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2020, 03:00:26 pm »
You can use PCIe3 with imperceptible performance degradation, It's not necessary to change anything , you are forcing a point

True.  I believe the utilisation of the 2000 series is 16x2.0 8x3.0, so even if the 3000 series doubles bandwidth capacity it will still only use 16x3.0 and maybe 8x4.0

And my rig is not CPU bound at all and probably wouldn't be with a 3000 series.

Although I have already tempted my brother with the hand me down. :(

... and NEW TOYS!
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Offline Ranayna

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2020, 07:54:33 pm »
It's all speculation anyway until reputable independent benchmarks turn up ;)

But i remember with some AMD GPUs that also can use PCIe 4, that there is actually a non significant performance increase in some circumstances. I think a couple of games performend around 10% faster with the GPU in a PCIe 4 slot than in a PCIe 3 Slot.
Additonally, if i understood it correctly, there will be a new feature that enables the GPU to pull texture data directly from a PCIe SSD. This will likely benefit from PCIe 4 as well, if you have an SSD that can utilize that, of course.

I will set up a new system late this year or early next year. I am essentially only waiting for the next Ryzen release. ;)
 
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Offline asmi

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2020, 05:29:01 pm »
It's all speculation anyway until reputable independent benchmarks turn up ;)
NVidia themselves showed benchmarks done on i9 machine (so PCIE 3.0). If PCIE 4.0 would make a difference, don't you think they'd show it instead?

Online Electro Fan

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2020, 06:15:03 pm »
PCIe 4.0 might or might not help the 3080 but it can help with NVMe performance (if you have NVMe that supports 4.0).  I wouldn't buy an entire new computer if I just wanted a new GPU (and no doubt the 3080 will offer some great performance/price) but if I was building a new computer I wouldn't buy a PCIe 3.0 motherboard when for not much more you could have PCIe 4.0.  PCIe 3.0 will run fine for years but for new computers it's the beginning of the end for PCIe 3.0 and the beginning of the beginning for PCIe 4.0.
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2020, 08:45:02 pm »
Wouldn't it be a bit awkward to use an AMD system to present your newest nVidia card? As far as i know, there are no Intel CPUs with PCIe 4 yet ;)
 

Offline asmi

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2020, 09:23:45 pm »
Wouldn't it be a bit awkward to use an AMD system to present your newest nVidia card? As far as i know, there are no Intel CPUs with PCIe 4 yet ;)
NVidia had no problems using ADM CPUs for their datacenter AI platform.

Offline Ranayna

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2020, 07:04:36 am »
You might be right, we will know in a week, when independent benchmarks are available. As far as I know, the review NDA lasts until next Monday.
But considering the target group for those graphics cards, I really suspect that nVidia made the prudent move not publicly benchmarking on an AMD system. The vocal "Fanboys" in the gamer crowd are *loud* and love to get into an outrage over the smallest things  ;D
 

Offline hans

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2020, 02:26:11 pm »
PCI-e 4 is nice for compute applications. More bandwidth to load up the video RAM with new data sets. For games it's yet to be seen whether it makes an improvement..

Rumors are going that the RTX 2000 series already exceeds PCI-e 3.0 8x throughput though. Namely, the AMD Ryzen 4000H series parts have not been paired with the 2070 models and upwards. Perhaps a Intel+NVidia artificial market segmentation strategy to combat AMD (a common competitor), or that AMD Renior parts don't have 16 PCI-e lanes for a GPU. I think we will need to wait for benchmarks to see if it makes a difference. I believe some HW tech channels are upgrading their GPU benches to AMD though, just to make sure it's not a bottleneck.

I'm also looking forward to the 3000 series cards, but will probably wait for more leaks/news on the AMD cards. I think that the 3070 is a little disappointing since it only features 8GB VRAM, which means it has been stagnant from since 1070 series (+1070 Ti) and  2070 (+2070Super) cards. That's 3 generations with 8GB VRAM on the 70 model..

In addition, the 3080 only offers 2GB more. I'm not sure how big of an advantage the 11GB VRAM on the 2080Ti then is, maybe in exceptional cases.. but the 3080 has much more bandwidth (PCI-e 4 to system RAM, and GDDR6X). I rather would have seen 10-12GB on the 3070, and 12-16GB on the 3080.
Rumors are that the Ti versions will have more VRAM. Meanwhile, apparently the next gen AMD cards may feature 16GB of VRAM.. Games like MSFS really likes VRAM..

I will probably pick up a new computer case & PSU soon though, as 1 thing that isn't going to change is the size of these new cards (often >300mm, my current Fractal Design Define R3 only fits up to 290mm cards). Also will probably go for a 1kW PSU, since I plan to have 2 GPU's in my system where I use my current GTX970 only on Linux (I want to PCI-e passthrough the 3080 to a Windows VM).
 

Offline MadTux

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2020, 02:43:28 pm »
Just wait another 3 years or so, for the next generation with 20% increase in ALU count....
Or 3000 series has meltdown/degradation issues similar to RTX2080ti Micron memory meltdown. Then everyone wants their working RTX2000 back....
I stopped buying newest computer hardware a long long time ago. It's a waste of money. But the increase in performance is still kinda interesting.
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2020, 02:59:09 pm »
I'm running a 1080 so a 3090 is a compelling upgrade. I keep thinking about getting a PC VR headset as well and not just having the PSVR one. I also don't think Nvidia would hurt their own performance just to use an Intel part. If it made their product look better they'll use an AMD CPU; That doesn't make them look bad because they don't make CPUs. They don't typically have long stretches where they're competing with AMD for the GPU crown either(for a while now).

If they changed their brand back to ATI I might consider buying one. I'd just install my ATI version of Mechwarrior and pretend I'm young again. I think I've used Nvidia since they move to hardware T&L... Except for one PC where the best video card I could get was ATI(X1650 Pro for my server with only an AGP slot).
 

Offline asmi

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2020, 03:24:35 pm »
But considering the target group for those graphics cards, I really suspect that nVidia made the prudent move not publicly benchmarking on an AMD system. The vocal "Fanboys" in the gamer crowd are *loud* and love to get into an outrage over the smallest things  ;D
These fanboys are tiny minority. I doubt NV (or AMD for that matter) cares about them much, as they are not the ones who bring them cash. It's the silent majority who buys OEM systems is the target audience.

Offline asmi

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2020, 03:37:30 pm »
I'm also looking forward to the 3000 series cards, but will probably wait for more leaks/news on the AMD cards. I think that the 3070 is a little disappointing since it only features 8GB VRAM, which means it has been stagnant from since 1070 series (+1070 Ti) and  2070 (+2070Super) cards. That's 3 generations with 8GB VRAM on the 70 model..

In addition, the 3080 only offers 2GB more. I'm not sure how big of an advantage the 11GB VRAM on the 2080Ti then is, maybe in exceptional cases.. but the 3080 has much more bandwidth (PCI-e 4 to system RAM, and GDDR6X). I rather would have seen 10-12GB on the 3070, and 12-16GB on the 3080.
As I understand, 3070 is meant to be for a high refresh 2K gaming and for that 8 GB is more than enough. 3080's positioning is more troublesome, while current titles don't require more than 8 GB of VRAM for 4K, who knows what will happen in 1-2 years from now. I plan to get 3080 for 2K gaming at high refresh rate (got 2K@144Hz HDR10 panel here) with some future-proofing, so for me 10 GB is enough.

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2020, 04:26:23 pm »
AAA titles are one thing.  There are other more niece use cases that will pretty much consume as much video hardware as you want to throw at them.  DCS World being the one I'm interested in, but also Flight Simulator 2020.  MS Flight Sim has always made current hardware seem inadequate.   I understand 2020 is no exception with a 2080Ti barely able to run on High settings and coming nowhere near 60fps.
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2020, 05:52:31 pm »
AAA titles are one thing.  There are other more niece use cases that will pretty much consume as much video hardware as you want to throw at them.  DCS World being the one I'm interested in, but also Flight Simulator 2020.  MS Flight Sim has always made current hardware seem inadequate.   I understand 2020 is no exception with a 2080Ti barely able to run on High settings and coming nowhere near 60fps.

As a pilot myself, all I can say is FS 2020 is stunning, it's by far the best PC simulator I've used, although it's been two or three years since I last tried Prepar3d or XPlane.

I run MS FS at 4K at a fairly consistent 40fps in Ultra on an RTX-2080 Ti with an i7-8700k. Note that I use it to maintain currency, not really for sightseeing, although it must be stated that the smoothness and realism I've found so far to be very acceptable. There's a fair bit of discussion that you don't really need 60fps+ for a flight simulator, and IME I'd agree with that, although I can see that it might sound counter intuitive.

My box is a mini-ITX build, using an Asrock Z370 Gaming ITX/ac, with 32GB 3000MHz DDR4 and a 2TB M.2 NVMe SSD. Except for the 2080Ti and case, this was my old lab/bench development PC, and I upgraded it specifically to use with FS 2020 back in April when I had some Covid time on my hands.

The case is a Sliger SM560 3-GPU slot (duh, I hadn't realised the 2080 Ti I'd bought was a 3 slotter!) with ventilated panels all round. Avoid inadvertently placing liquids on top of it! Otherwise this well ventilated case is the best ITX enclosure for thermals I've ever encountered despite its diminutive 11 litre size.

Two Noctua 120mm fans are in the base On the CPU I have a frankenstein combo of a Cooltek LP53 cooler with another Noctua 120mm fan sitting directly on top of it: the overreach of the fan cools both the CPU and the motherboard.

PSU is a SilverStone SST-SW700-G. An earlier Corsair SF750 that I installed blew its magic smoke when in standby, taking a circuit breaker with it. The i7-8700k is stock, with no IHS modifications.

With no overclocking, it runs AIDA64 at 75 deg C with a slight -100mV offset undervolt. As with any mini ITX build, it's not great for overclocking, thermals get out of control rapidly, so I leave it running at stock apart from the undervolting.

To complete the setup, I have a Honeycomb yoke, Saitek/Logitech throttle quadrant, and Thrustmaster T.Flight Rudder Pedals. As a pilot, I find that having realistic controls is key for me: trying to land with keyboard and mouse is neither fun nor realistic.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 05:55:14 pm by Howardlong »
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2020, 06:17:47 pm »
Go VR man :)  Reverb or Oculus.

Give DCS world a try, a bit more exciting and mostly VFR.  If you like playing with the more complex FS models, the level of detail in a HiFi module in DCS is staggering.  It took me 2 hours to start up an A10 first time.  Learning the various weapons systems and targetting systems took months.  Every switch is implemented and functional as it should be.  3D clickable too and in VR.

(I can start an A10 in 4 minutes now and a hornet is less). 

Launching from the new Super Carrier mod, including deck crew, marshalling, full cat crew is awesome.  Absolutely kills the framerate on deck with 4 AI launching and 4 taxiing, but it's so amazing.

It's not just the combat, pew, pew gaming, the flight model is (for most things) far beyond what FS2004 had.  Proper fluid dynamics for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIvnLgLuVFs&ab_channel=EagleDynamics%3ADigitalCombatSimulator

EDIT:  Watching that video again, it's hard to believe until you've seen it that 100% of that is in game footage.  It's beautiful to watch and even more so to play.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 06:22:33 pm by paulca »
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Online Electro Fan

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2020, 07:14:56 pm »
Wouldn't it be a bit awkward to use an AMD system to present your newest nVidia card? As far as i know, there are no Intel CPUs with PCIe 4 yet ;)

+1

I think it is correct that so far there are no Intel CPUs that support PCIe 4, but there are definitely AMD CPUs that support PCIe 4 and they work well with nVidia's current GPUs (20XX and others), and no doubt they will happily work with nVidia's 30XX GPUs. 

Not a lot of reasons yet (other than maybe read/write NVMe performance) to give up on PCIe 3 if someone has PCIe 3, but given a choice (building a full computer from scratch) PCIe 4 is preferred.  One of these days Intel will deliver PCIe 4 but if they don't get there this year....... maybe next year or the year after we could possibly start to see products that support PCIe 5.

https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/x570
PCIe® 4.0 Leadership
3rd Gen AMD Ryzen is the FIRST processor to enable PCIe® 4.0, including support for Radeon RX 5000 series graphics and the world’s first PCIe® 4.0 NVMe drives

https://www.slashgear.com/nvidia-answers-some-burning-rtx-30-series-questions-pcie-4-3080-ram-04636806/
We also learn what kind of performance downgrade owners can expect if they use these cards with PCIe 3.0 instead of PCIe 4.0. “System performance is impacted by many factors and the impact varies between applications,” NVIDIA’s Seth Schneider said. “The impact is typically less than a few percent going from a x16 PCIE 4.0 to x16 PCIE 3.0. CPU selection often has a larger impact on performance. We look forward to new platforms that can fully take advantage of Gen4 capabilities for potential performance increases.

https://www.rambus.com/blogs/pci-express-5-vs-4/#:~:text=What%20is%20PCI%20Express%205,released%20in%20May%20of%202019.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/pcie-4.0-5.0-pci-sig-specification,38460.html
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2020, 09:27:31 pm »
Go VR man :)  Reverb or Oculus.


This is the only reason to go VR for me, once HP's Reverb G2 is released I'll be giving it a go.

I did use an IR reflector gadget at one time which was kinda OK, but that's the main part of the experience lacking right now, moving your head as you look at the window.
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2020, 08:07:50 am »
Go VR man :)  Reverb or Oculus.


This is the only reason to go VR for me, once HP's Reverb G2 is released I'll be giving it a go.

I did use an IR reflector gadget at one time which was kinda OK, but that's the main part of the experience lacking right now, moving your head as you look at the window.

The OMG factor for my first time was the 3D sense of distance.  I found it hard to not reach out my real hand to touch things.  That and just how bright the screens are when you look at the sun for example.
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Offline Ranayna

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2020, 06:05:59 am »
Review NDA has been bumped to Wednesday. We will have to wait just a bit longer now :p
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2020, 06:28:05 pm »
Seem reviews are out:
https://youtu.be/oTeXh9x0sUc
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Offline Ranayna

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2020, 07:20:03 pm »
Yea, but only for the 3080 FE, reviews for custom desings have to waint until tomorrow, 3090 reviews will take some time, 3070 even more.

All in all, this is a powerful beast from what the tests say, but that is bought with a comparatively high power consumption. There is not all that much achievable via overclocking, so i expect the custom designs will have to distinguish themselved with their cooling solution. Even so, the cooler of the FE apparantly works quite well. If there were not reports of strong coil whine on the FE, i would likly get that one. The 3080 has more than double the power than my 1080, at a comparable price, so it would be quite an upgrade.

Well, it's time for a new box i think  ;D The "I want it" factor has just gotten a lot stronger, but i will wait for the new AMD processors that will be announced soon.

And yes, @asmi was apparently right :) PCIe 4.0 only maske a very small difference in a few games.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2020, 07:52:35 pm »
Go VR man :)  Reverb or Oculus.

Probably not Oculus. Facebook has just announced they are discontinuing all PC headsets (i.e. Rift) from next year and will focus only the standalone ones (Quest). While you can use Quest with PC via the Oculus Link (over USB 3 cable), it is always going to be a compromise due to image quality degradation, lower refresh rate and higher latency compared to a PC headset.

If you want the HMD primarily for PC use (and thus care about the image quality and the rest because you are investing into a high end PC to go with it), better look elsewhere.

With Reverb I would be careful - it is Windows Mixed Reality headset, which is a platform about as niche as it gets. While it can play SteamVR content, the support isn't as good as for the more mainstream headsets. Of course, if you want it only for FS2020, you likely don't need to care as that has native support for it.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 07:55:51 pm by janoc »
 

Offline hans

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2020, 09:21:51 pm »
Yea, but only for the 3080 FE, reviews for custom desings have to waint until tomorrow, 3090 reviews will take some time, 3070 even more.

All in all, this is a powerful beast from what the tests say, but that is bought with a comparatively high power consumption. There is not all that much achievable via overclocking, so i expect the custom designs will have to distinguish themselved with their cooling solution. Even so, the cooler of the FE apparantly works quite well. If there were not reports of strong coil whine on the FE, i would likly get that one. The 3080 has more than double the power than my 1080, at a comparable price, so it would be quite an upgrade.

Well, it's time for a new box i think  ;D The "I want it" factor has just gotten a lot stronger, but i will wait for the new AMD processors that will be announced soon.

And yes, @asmi was apparently right :) PCIe 4.0 only maske a very small difference in a few games.

I guess they really wanted to push a "4K 60FPS" gaming card out the door.. I've calculated that Ampere is only 25% or so more efficient at their typical load power than Turing, even though NVIDIA boasted that Ampere has 1.9x perf/W than Turing (at the FPS as Turing can achieve). From most reviews I've seen/read, the FE card is pretty heavy into the power limits all the time. So not only a huge cooler (preferably water), but also a beefy VRM is necessary for any OC. Gamers Nexus OC'ed their card, and although FPS improved some pretty bad frame time spikes were probably due to the VRM throttling quite heavily..

The "WANT" factor for me is also quite big. Although, having a 300W+ card in a system is probably going to be quite loud. I will probably bite the bullet and order a MSI or Asus card tomorrow (or soon (TM))  anyway.. blindly trusting them that they know how to make GPU coolers. I'm not even sure if it makes that much of a difference if you don't OC the card. I might even underclock or undervolt the card if it really turns out to be a bit loud, and then gradually open it back up over time when I really do need to the extra FPS (I only need 1440p/144Hz, but my GTX970 is on it's last legs)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 09:25:00 pm by hans »
 


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