Author Topic: NVidia 3000 series.  (Read 8794 times)

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Offline Ranayna

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2020, 07:45:26 am »
One thing that speaks for the Founders Edition: They now also shut down the fans when the card is idle. Before now, that was a thing that only third party designs did.
On the other hand, similar to you, I bought a ASUS 970 back in the day, with the hopes that it would be silent. Yes, it was silent while idle, since the fans were off, but under load that thing was terribly loud.
If I get a 3080, I will reduce the power target a bit. It will still be a beast, about double as fast as my current card, but then with a comparable power requirement under load, and maybe then even a bit more silent.
And the idle power with a dual monitor system has been significantly reduced as well, which I see as a big plus.

Though, since I want to wait for the new AMD Processors anyway, maybe a 3070 will be a better match, we will see...
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2020, 08:27:03 am »
I hope the water cooling AIO brackets from NZXT fit it.  A 240mm radiator with 2 fans under tight control is what I currently have cooling a 1070Ti and the PC is nearly completely silent for desktop use.  Sounds like a rack server on full tilt though, but I get <60*C GPU temp and full boost clock from that.  The 3070 is probably where I'm aiming, a double generation jump and hopefully by the time the 3070 is released things will have calmed down a bit.

Doing a double gen jump on the CPU might be nice, but would need to wait on all the rush and high release pricing before they are viable.
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2020, 08:29:07 am »
So any gamers out there - here's a napkin, wipe up your drool - will know the 3000 series is launched and set to go on sale September 17th.

There are many sources out there with full specs, but it can be summed up that the entry level base card 3070 will out perform the latest flagship 2080Ti and costs £450.  The 3090 is double the performance of the 2080Ti.  There will be a LOT of very, very sad 2080Ti purchasers and a LOT of S/H GPU traders screaming in pain in a few weeks.

My present PC is only nearly 3 years old, but I have that itch again.  But then it starts...

The new GPU actually makes good use of the PCI-e V4 bus, so I need a new Motherboard.  The new Motherboard will support the latest 3rd gen Ryzen 3800X, so I need a new CPU.  The new CPU will support faster RAM and I'll need more anyway for DCS World and FS2020.. so I need new RAM 32Gb.

When I tried to make a "hand me down" deal with my brother, his case won't handle my stuff, now will his PSU and I was hoping to keep my cooling systems.  However it looking like for that deal go to through I'll end up handing down the case and PSU and maybe the cooling systems too.

So that's a whole new PC, except for drives and I'm sorely tempted to go for a 1Tb MVeM2 drive anyway.

I'm off to go window shopping, wish me luck.

That said, what is unfortunately likely to happen is... 3080 goes on sale at £650 and immediately sells out.  All the websites put their price up to £950 and they all sell out, then it will settle at £1400 for months before falling again.
Yes, the first FE tests arrived, and it is a beast. I have a GTX 1080, the 3080 is twice the speed. But you pretty much need a new PC. Intel 109895X (or whatever it is called) is 10% faster, according to techpowerup, but it is such an ancient technology. I really dont feel like investing into 14nm++++. So I probably just wait till zen3 comes out.
But then I need a brand new PC, and I probably want a VR headset. Steam Index. And then we are talking about spending about 3000 EUR on a computer, the only thing staying is the monitor. It might be the same for others, now you can game in 4K, but then you need a high refrsh rate 4K monitor. It starts at 800 EUR. And the card is 800 EUR.
In any case, this is going to be an expensive few month.

Doing a double gen jump on the CPU might be nice, but would need to wait on all the rush and high release pricing before they are viable.
Oh, imagine,  I would be switching from a 4th gen intel i5 4570.
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2020, 07:08:51 pm »
Don't benchmark it... take it apart!
https://youtu.be/OX9Eh_NaC5c

That's some dense PCB shit.  So many unpopulated solder blobs.
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Offline Sal Ammoniac

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2020, 10:20:09 pm »
So any gamers out there - here's a napkin, wipe up your drool - will know the 3000 series is launched and set to go on sale September 17th.

You should hold out for the 3090.
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Offline Ranayna

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2020, 07:56:11 am »
Of course the 3090 will be more powerful. But looking at what the 3080 already can do, the 3090 seems unreasonable ;) It will for sure not deliver double the performance of the 3080.
Even the 3080 is not all that reasonable if you are still on full hd or don't want to use a VR headset.

The cards are apparently sold out anyway at the moment, like they always are right after launch. Prices need to settle down as well, and i have no urgent need to upgrade, so i will wait for bechmarks of the 3070 in a month.
 

Offline asmi

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2020, 01:41:51 pm »
NVidia cards almost always sell above MSRP, so don't hold your hopes high that prices will go down any time soon.
I think 3090 is more geared for professional applications, as 24GB of VRAM is a massive overkill for any games. I plan to get a 3080 once the market settles down a bit. I had a chance to pick up AIB version yesterday at the local store, but I decided to wait a little as I will also need to upgrade the rest of my system as I still use i7-3930K which is now like 8 years old. It's a HEDT CPU, so it's got 4 DDR3 memory channels, which allows it to be competitive with modern dual channel DDR4 as far as bandwidth is concerned. The problem is HEDT systems are super-expensive now (waaaay higher than what there were back when I was buying my current system), so I will have to either buy a mass-market platform and be prepared to refresh it in a few years' time, or wait for more interesting HEDT solutions to arrive.

Offline hans

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2020, 02:09:48 pm »
I also think that the RTX3090 is unreasonable for gaming, although I'm sure some people will impulse-buy them seeing how inflated prices are on Ebay right now. The 3090 "only" has 21% more CUDA cores than the 3080, and has to work under a similar TDP (some AIB cards have the same cooler design for 3080 and 3090). With that being said, 24GB VRAM is really nice for compute, and maybe in future better than 10GB when running 4K games, but rightv now it seems pointless for gaming.

I got lucky and was able to order a 3080 card, and it will come in tomorrow together with a new case and PSU.

Now I will just have to figure out how to either get the latest NVIDIA drivers for Manjaro, and/or setup PCI-e passthrough for a Windows gaming VM I'd like to try out. I read on Phoronix that the 455.23.04 driver is necessary, but I'm only on the 450 branch so far.
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2020, 02:34:41 pm »
This time i might actually get an original nVidia Founders Edition ;) Those are reasonably priced and the cooler seems to be quite good, if maybe a little loud. Since, if i am getting a 3080, i will reduce it's power a bit anyway, it would not make much sense to get a custom design, since most of the time those are addionally overclocked, driving the price up.
Only if the price is comparable to the FE, or the custom is significantly more silent i will consider one.
 

Offline hans

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2020, 08:33:17 am »
I got my RTX3080 from Gigabyte (Gaming OC version). Wow what a beast of a card! Not surprising since it's a 3 cooler design though.. I get about 5x performance compared to my GTX970 in Unigine Heaven 1440p Ultra. Maybe the 970 was begging for more VRAM or whatever, but that's a huge jump for playing games at these resolutions.

It's so big that I even feel that it's a bit overkill :-// But whatever, I like overkill considering I also run a Ryzen 9 and several TB of SSD storage.  :-/O

Anyhow, this card doesn't seem to run too hit (65C at 70% fan speed). With 100% fans, the card can cool down even further by about 10 - 14C, so that's still some decent margin left I think. Unfortunately there is a small amount of coil whine.. but I'm running it on an open bench right now, so perhaps not surprising.

I did hear/read this weekend that the GDDR6X modules on the FE card are getting very hot (105C or something, case spec is 100C). Not sure how hot they get on AIB cards.
For some reason I'm not surprised, because most memory modules I see marketed for gaming/enthiousiasts are getting somewhat beaten up (e.g. DOCP/XMP profiles for DDRx RAM)
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Offline PolioKahuna

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2020, 02:55:03 pm »
I hope there won't be hiccups with the nvidia 3000 series drivers since I just ordered 1 for myself.
..
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2020, 04:14:50 pm »
It's suspected, though not confirmed that the spec allows for cheaper large caps to be used in place of an array of 8 MLCC caps.   This is the backside of the board under the GPU core for decoupling and power stability.

The founders cards have 4 blocks of cheaper caps and 2 blocks of MLCC.   The 3rd party cards which have only one set of MLCCs or none at all are crashing at peak GPU Boost clocks.

The issue has been blamed on NVidia keeping the drivers for the 3000 series secret, even from the 3rd party board manufacturers until after they had to start building the cards.  It seems there may have been a miss match in the peak boost clocks the driver pushes and what the "corners cut" AIB cards can handle.

If this is indeed the case, the affected first gen AIB cards will almost undoubted receive a BIOS/Driver upgrade to clock down their cores so the peak boost does not crash them.  In the mean time people are being advised, if this is an issue for them to offset their core clocks to -100Mhz or drop their power limit below 100% to limit the peak boost clocks.

The rework will take months in the factories but expect updated models with marketing about these caps plastered all over them, "Fully MLCC, Gaming Ready" and similar BS.... and more RGB
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2020, 07:12:17 pm »
I'm hoping der8auer invests in a tweezer iron, I was getting quite twitchy he was going to lift a trace, although he's probably been saved in this case by a multitude of vias.

https://youtu.be/ud6NrbJllzk?t=372
 

Offline MadTux

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2020, 12:17:52 pm »
Has all the money to buy shitloads of new hardware but no money for second soldering iron.  |O
2 good Wellers/JBCs in each hand and you could probably just lift the cap out, with enough preheat on the board.
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2020, 05:27:20 pm »
Has all the money to buy shitloads of new hardware but no money for second soldering iron.  |O
2 good Wellers/JBCs in each hand and you could probably just lift the cap out, with enough preheat on the board.

I thought it would have been neater if he used a chisel.
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2020, 01:31:49 pm »
It's suspected, though not confirmed that the spec allows for cheaper large caps to be used in place of an array of 8 MLCC caps.   This is the backside of the board under the GPU core for decoupling and power stability.

The founders cards have 4 blocks of cheaper caps and 2 blocks of MLCC.   The 3rd party cards which have only one set of MLCCs or none at all are crashing at peak GPU Boost clocks.

The issue has been blamed on NVidia keeping the drivers for the 3000 series secret, even from the 3rd party board manufacturers until after they had to start building the cards.  It seems there may have been a miss match in the peak boost clocks the driver pushes and what the "corners cut" AIB cards can handle.

If this is indeed the case, the affected first gen AIB cards will almost undoubted receive a BIOS/Driver upgrade to clock down their cores so the peak boost does not crash them.  In the mean time people are being advised, if this is an issue for them to offset their core clocks to -100Mhz or drop their power limit below 100% to limit the peak boost clocks.

The rework will take months in the factories but expect updated models with marketing about these caps plastered all over them, "Fully MLCC, Gaming Ready" and similar BS.... and more RGB
I dont think price has anything to do with why the cards are crashing. Poscaps are good, high quality caps. But their impedance vs frequency is different than MLCCs. They are probably higher capacity, but they have higher impedance at higher frequencies. Designing a power delivery network for the ~250A, these monster GPUs are using is anything but trivial.
But obviously, not enough testing was performed. 
And yes, the general public will conclude, that MLCC= good POSCAP = BAD.

They seem to butchered most aspects of this launch. Not enough cards, delayed review because shipping, delayed drivers for board partners, unstable hardware. And now they delay the 3070 cards because they expect bigger sales.
 
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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2020, 05:25:59 pm »
I dont think price has anything to do with why the cards are crashing. Poscaps are good, high quality caps. But their impedance vs frequency is different than MLCCs. They are probably higher capacity, but they have higher impedance at higher frequencies. Designing a power delivery network for the ~250A, these monster GPUs are using is anything but trivial.

And yes, the general public will conclude, that MLCC= good POSCAP = BAD.

Maybe the price was just an assumption, but 6 or 8 MLCC placements/components versus one higher capacity poscap ... surely end to end, not just BOM it would be cheaper to go with the single component?

But... yes.  I fully expect to see PC Gamer components being marketed as having 100% MLCC capacitors FOR THE WIN!  And if you dare tell them they are full of shit they'll spray poorly grounded out of context nonesense at you.
(Rant!  I bought a new Wifi router.  I decided to throw some money at it, go for £150-200.  Was considering a glitzy Nighthawk, but paused and decided to look for less bling more features and less marketing bullshit... but got distracted and came back and bought the Nighthawk R8000.  It's absolutely f****** rubbish, pos.  Router?  It doesn't even support proper DHCP, DNS, static routes, SNMP and it changes it's static, manually assigned LAN IP because a DNS server in DHCP had the same subnet....  Yea.  Randomly updates it's ip address and subnet to disappear off your network without a MAC Scan.  Had to factory reset the thing 5 times, before I flashed open source firmware on it and ... it's still stupid as shiny black plank.  Waste of money.), but it was FOR GAMERS!

Quote
But obviously, not enough testing was performed. 

They seem to butchered most aspects of this launch. Not enough cards, delayed review because shipping, delayed drivers for board partners, unstable hardware. And now they delay the 3070 cards because they expect bigger sales.

The not releasing drivers for testing early.  The not actually implementing their own reference design and then not really testing it with the drivers, but expecting the AIBs to.... then give them the driver a few weeks before launch.
The allowing bots to buy 90% of the cards and inflate the market.
All annoying, but fun to watch.  I will wait till the dust settles and consider a 3070
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 05:35:07 pm by paulca »
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2020, 10:07:44 pm »
Go VR man :)  Reverb or Oculus.


Well the VR update for MSFS came out today. I just did a circuit at my home base, it’s a completely different experience, overall much for the better. Just wow in fact, with a couple of caveats.

I use it with a Reverb G2, Honeycomb yoke, Saitek throttle quadrant, and Thrustmaster rudder pedals. I have the elevator trim set up on the left yoke up/down switches.

Mostly the immersion is excellent, although there is no motion controller functionality. I use a mouse to point to do things like the strobes, pitot heat, parking brake and flaps etc, as I’m not familiar enough with the various controller settings I set up: with the headset on, you’d have to fumble about blindly, thus I use the mouse instead.

When setting up the journey, no on screen keyboard comes up so you have to lift the headset to find and use the physical keyboard.

Machine is a stock i7-8700k, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME SSD and RTX 2080 TI, Asrock Z370 Gaming ITX/ac mobo, all in a tiny Sliger SM560 mini ITX case.

The frame rate isn’t particularly special, but the VR immersion far outweighs running it on a monitor for me, and I am using the out of the box settings.

I burst out laughing while taxiing off the runway after landing, when my cat started tapping me on the shoulder looking for some attention: the immersion was such that it felt like someone was sitting in the back tapping me on the shoulder.
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2020, 10:18:34 pm »
It's suspected, though not confirmed that the spec allows for cheaper large caps to be used in place of an array of 8 MLCC caps.   This is the backside of the board under the GPU core for decoupling and power stability.

The founders cards have 4 blocks of cheaper caps and 2 blocks of MLCC.
LOW ESR SP-CAP is not cheaper than 10 MLCC. At least when looking at publicly available distributor prices. Not to say some manufacturers used higher capacitance than suggested by reference design and still kept SP-CAPs.


 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 10:20:10 pm by wraper »
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2020, 10:29:41 am »
I burst out laughing while taxiing off the runway after landing, when my cat started tapping me on the shoulder looking for some attention: the immersion was such that it felt like someone was sitting in the back tapping me on the shoulder.

Yep.  When I'm driving in my car my ecig vape thing sits on the passenger seat.  The first game I played in VR was a racing sim.  Sitting in the cockpit I kept looking down towards the passenger seat for my vape.  Then realising and going "doh!"

On the Oculus original you can detach the bottom of the face gasket and cut off a bit of foam around your nose to give you a little gap to peer through for the keyboard.  It also allows airflow from a fan which becomes important if you go under the hood for an hour or more.  Especially if you wear glasses.

Before I had "TrackIR", but what that doesn't give you is access to your brains multi-target point tracking system.  In VR with the head motion being 1:1 in all axises your brain can suddenly properly track multiple targets and switch your view almost instantly and accurately.  I mean you can be landing on the carrier where most of your attention is focused, but instantly turn your head to look at the destroyer on your left or the cruiser on your right as your brain knows where they are and you can instantly move your attention there.
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Offline hans

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2020, 11:26:16 am »
I also ran MSFS in VR with my 3080 card on a 3900X system.

Works pretty OK. Frame rate is not as high as I would like, but when it's not loading assets I think MSFS is doing a pretty good job of frame interpolation (of some kind). I run mostly medium settings around busy airports (like Schiphol), where the framerate is a bit jittery, but once I'm out of the area (which for a plane and  a small country like NL is very quick  :-DD ) I flick clouds to Ultra and just sit back & enjoy. Very pretty :D

I'm really surprised by the immersion. I did a flight around Alaska near sunrise with live cloudy weather, and was really amazed by what I saw from the cockpit. It feels almost unreal if you never experience these things from an airplane cockpit.

Definitely happy that I was able to get a 3000 series card for this. Also will be picking up Cyberpunk in the holidays to wind down. That game also runs very smoothly on RT Ultra :-+
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #47 on: December 25, 2020, 10:08:43 am »

Before I had "TrackIR", but what that doesn't give you is access to your brains multi-target point tracking system.  In VR with the head motion being 1:1 in all axises your brain can suddenly properly track multiple targets and switch your view almost instantly and accurately.  I mean you can be landing on the carrier where most of your attention is focused, but instantly turn your head to look at the destroyer on your left or the cruiser on your right as your brain knows where they are and you can instantly move your attention there.

I had a TrackIR some years ago on FSX. Like you suggest, it's not perfect, you move your head and have to back-correct by moving your eyes in the opposite direction.

My old FSX setup ended up having so many plug ins and hacks, I spent too much time just trying to get it to start up, so I lost interest, although I did used it to help with memory items before tests, but mostly gave up with all the add-ons.

My rudder pedals are too sensitive, I need to figure out how to resolve that, it's almost impossible to taxi along the centre lines. Speaking of which, it'd be a nice add on to have centre line cat's eyes bump feedback!
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2021, 07:14:22 pm »
I bit the bullet this last week and rebuilt my FS VR rig, from an i7 8700K + RTX 2080ti to an R7 5600X + RTX 3090. Stunning performance compared to the old rig.

All in an 11L mini ITX build Sliger SM560 with top, bottom and both sides ventilated.

It's a tight squeeze, and the GPU (MSI Trio 3090) runs nicely toasty. 5600X with 65W TDP running PBO with a Cryorig C7 G runs fine for normal loads, although AIDA 64 gives it a run for the money.

I had to update the mobo BIOS (Gigabyte X570 I Auros) using G Flash plus without the CPU installed, and dropped the PCIE down to Gen 3.0: I'd imagine the ~12" riser cable does nothing to help the signal integrity for Gen 4.0.

I also had to hack the case internals slightly to make the GPU fit inside: there's a GPU cutout in the bulkhead at the front of the case that needed an extra centimetre or so of height. Length wise, there's only 2mm of case space left.







« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 07:21:16 pm by Howardlong »
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: NVidia 3000 series.
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2021, 12:10:58 am »
I bit the bullet this last week and rebuilt my FS VR rig, from an i7 8700K + RTX 2080ti to an R7 5600X + RTX 3090. Stunning performance compared to the old rig.
They actually sell 3090 in UK? It's just vaporware here.
Cheapest RTX 3090 here is 2200 EUR (that's 2650 USD) for a card with the MSRP of 1500 USD. No thanks.
 


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