Author Topic: Open Source Ventilator  (Read 6428 times)

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Offline BlitzschnitzelTopic starter

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Open Source Ventilator
« on: March 28, 2020, 09:18:50 pm »
Hi,
I just wanted to advertise this open source ventilator project:
https://gitlab.com/open-source-ventilator/OpenLung
I don't know if the situation will get so dire that this will be needed but the project revolves around using one of these hand operated ventilators and squeeze them in an automated way. The concept I am currently working on is the one named "Sucker Punch". 8)
As a lot of us are stuck at home this would be a very constructive use of your time and skills. :)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 10:23:25 pm by Blitzschnitzel »
 
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Offline BlitzschnitzelTopic starter

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2020, 06:52:16 pm »
OK I guess the "What did you buy today?" thread is more popular. :-\
 

Offline Domagoj T

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2020, 07:42:02 pm »
What's wrong with dozens of actual designs in current use?
Are these devices likely to ever, even in the most dire of circumstances, be used? Whoever administers this DIY thing is open to so many malpractice lawsuits suits they might as well let the patient die.
Let's not invent hot water. It's much easier and faster to licence an existing design and crank up production of those.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2020, 08:09:56 pm »





They are 'life support ventilators' and tend to kill people if they malfunction. So the medical safety standards for them are pretty strong and add redundancy/complexity.
AvE used a couple 555 timers and solenoids, pressure regulators, gauges.
 

Offline BlitzschnitzelTopic starter

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2020, 08:21:46 pm »
What's wrong with dozens of actual designs in current use?
Are these devices likely to ever, even in the most dire of circumstances, be used? Whoever administers this DIY thing is open to so many malpractice lawsuits suits they might as well let the patient die.
Let's not invent hot water. It's much easier and faster to licence an existing design and crank up production of those.
In Italy they are doing on the spot decisions about who gets to live and who has to die right now, because they lack ventilators. I think the normal rules don't apply anymore. This is a stop gap measure about making the cheapest and quickest to produce ventilator and in Africa they don't even have enough ventilators for the everyday needs. If I have to choose between maybe dyeing from a janky ventilator and definitely dyeing, I am going to choose the janky ventilator.

@floobydust
Yeah I've seen AvE's videos and that is a cool design but he claims that you can't administer oxygen to the hand pumps, which is simply not true.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 08:30:58 pm by Blitzschnitzel »
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2020, 08:48:39 pm »
All of us would think totally different if a loved one needed ventilator support and none are available. I didn't like to post AvE-style prototype because it looked not quite perfected, but what parts do we have?

You are basically making a pnematic signal generator, little electronics needed. You could get cute and use a PWM solenoid with pressure sensor to instead control air flow, then an MCU is needed.

CPAP machines use a high performance BLDC motor and fan, and pressure sensor - instead of all this high pressure compressed air and regulators and manometers and valves, which is so complicated no wonder GM and Ventec Life are bungling it and Trump is having a cow. I think the CPAP approach is much more reasonable instead of an iron-lung approach. I'm not a respiratory expert but a fan limiting the max. available pressure is much easier and you'd need no clean compressed air supply - unless you want a 'hospital only' solution?
 

Online golden_labels

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2020, 08:51:21 pm »
What's wrong with dozens of actual designs in current use?
They are proprietary. While that may be — for whatever reason — unimportant to you, there is over 7bn other people on this planet and many of them would like to see it other way. So, acting within the freedom they have, they are trying to change things. Whatever I may think about the current design or the idea of using 3D printing for production, unconstructive ridicule is not making sense to me in this case.

Also in the crisis situations greater risks may be taken. Religa, the cardiologist who later conducted the first heart transplant in Poland, to save his patient has bought a pig, packed it on the backseat of a car, drove to the hospital and attempted a pig-to-human tansplantation. Of course finally the patient has died, but having to choose between likely death and taking his chances, he has decided for the latter. Having to either let your patient die or use a potentially malfunctioning device, some people may opt for that route.
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Offline pipe2null

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2020, 09:09:49 pm »
I started a similar topic on the forum a couple days ago.  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/hack-challenge-can-you-hack-a-cpap-or-bipap-machine-into-a-ventilator/
Didn't get the response I thought it would.

What's wrong with dozens of actual designs in current use?
Are these devices likely to ever, even in the most dire of circumstances, be used? Whoever administers this DIY thing is open to so many malpractice lawsuits suits they might as well let the patient die.
Let's not invent hot water. It's much easier and faster to licence an existing design and crank up production of those.
In Italy they are doing on the spot decisions about who gets to live and who has to die right now, because they lack ventilators. I think the normal rules don't apply anymore. This is a stop gap measure about making the cheapest and quickest to produce ventilator and in Africa they don't even have enough ventilators for the everyday needs. If I have to choose between maybe dyeing from a janky ventilator and definitely dyeing, I am going to choose the janky ventilator.

If the only device available to a patient is a DIY or hacked ventilator, I'm sure they will likely sign a legal waiver in order to keep living long enough for a standard ventilator to become available.  The situation in the US is not as bad as Italy, but the way things are looking right now, it would not surprise me if DIY/hacked ventilators could save some lives in the near future, at least if they were available.  This is especially true since most available ventilators will end up in urban hot spots and very few will be left for the newer rural/lower population density hot spots that are currently emerging.

...
CPAP machines use a high performance BLDC motor and fan, and pressure sensor - instead of all this high pressure compressed air and regulators and manometers and valves, which is so complicated no wonder GM and Ventec Life are bungling it and Trump is having a cow. I think the CPAP approach is much more reasonable instead of an iron-lung approach. I'm not a respiratory expert but a fan limiting the max. available pressure is much easier and you'd need no clean compressed air supply - unless you want a 'hospital only' solution?
From what I've read, the primary issue with CPAP/BiPAP hacking is the open-exhaust of the patients' exhale, which is bad for transmitting the virus.   If someone comes up with a partially printable solution for that, then perhaps there might be some CPAP/BiPAP models that would only need a firmware hack?  I have no idea, just throwing some ideas out there.

I wish I had the expertise to design or hack together a repeatable solution.  There is no question that it can save lives.

 

Online Bud

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2020, 09:21:35 pm »
Do you really think you will show up at a hospital door with a contraption 3D printed  in the garage and the nurses will form a line to get one from you?  :-//
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Offline Domagoj T

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2020, 09:34:22 pm »
unconstructive ridicule is not making sense to me in this case.

My post is neithet ridiculing, nor unconstructive. I point out a serious flaw (criticism, not ridicule) and offer a better approach (me being constructive).
This is not about DIY or nothing. It's about DIY or properly designed device.
The fact that the designs are proprietary is irrelevant. Any government should have no trouble ordering devices, aquiring the licence, or even outright nationalizing the entire manufacturing company.
 

Offline pipe2null

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2020, 09:41:34 pm »
Do you really think you will show up at a hospital door with a contraption 3D printed  in the garage and the nurses will form a line to get one from you?  :-//
Don't know.  If the line queues up next to the morgue, it's likely to be at least considered.  You do have a point though.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2020, 09:46:15 pm »
Do you really think you will show up at a hospital door with a contraption 3D printed  in the garage and the nurses will form a line to get one from you?  :-//

Obviously it needs to be produced and delivered by an organization with some expertise and clout, not just a random individual showing up at the door. Having more ideas developed cannot be a bad thing, there is no shortage of skilled and experienced engineers who can draw from the best of the ideas and come up with something. We need something equivalent to the Liberty ships in WWII, cheap, utilitarian and easily produced in large numbers, they can be scrapped or sold off as surplus and repurposed after the crisis is over.

I will say this though, if I'm dying and in need of a ventilator and there is not one available to me, sign me up, I don't care if a random 15 year old built it in his or her garage, I'll take it. If the alternative is to die suffocating in my own fluids then I don't really give a rat's ass about regulations or whether the contraption I'm hooking up to has a chance of not working properly or even that it might kill me.
 
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Offline pipe2null

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2020, 10:16:43 pm »
There are many people out there doing what they can, whether they are printing stuff out or designing stuff for people to print out as a stopgap for shortages.
https://forum.prusaprinters.org/forum/coronavirus-covid-19/

But stopgap measures for something like ventilators requires real engineers throwing in with the maker community.  If only I knew of a forum where people of such a caliber hung out...   ;)
 

Offline MasterBuilder

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2020, 10:19:27 pm »
All this raises a few questions;

Boris Johnson says Dyson will manufacture them
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52043767

Trump has ordered GM to produce them, 10000 per month.
https://www.bbc.com/news/52071611

Is there really a global shortage of ventilators:
There certainly seems to be in Spain:


Price has risen from 26k to 96k due to demand:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52074862

Are they difficult to make;
Probably not if only basic features are needed.
Most of the requirement seem to be covered with a proportional valve, some sensors and control.

CPAP machine seems to be some good:
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/27/822211604/cpap-machines-were-seen-as-ventilator-alternatives-but-could-spread-covid-19?
For more difficult cases there is definitely a better outcome if a fully featured and certified ventilator is used.

My insight is that near me is located a factory which manufacturers Ventilators for a major Medical device company. They announced last week that they are increasing production capacity, they are doubling it to 500 per week. To allow for this they are doubling the staff in the factory and moving to a 24/7 shift. Curious and keen to help as any engineer might be, I made some inquiries and found that they seem to have very few advertised jobs and certainly not the hundreds that they need to double capacity. There does seem to be a reasonable explanation for this, they have other products manufactured nearby so they likely just moved staff over to the ventilator plant. But as of today they are still not doing 24/7 shift, maybe its just a slow moving corporation problem, but would they not move faster in what is literally a life and death situation.

There are plenty obvious reasons why making life support equipment is a difficult task, these claiming they can start building these overnight seem to be living in a fantasy world.
 
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Offline BlitzschnitzelTopic starter

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2020, 10:20:36 pm »
If someone sees flaws with the concepts being worked on that is the more reason to assert yourself in the project. :D

From what I've read, the primary issue with CPAP/BiPAP hacking is the open-exhaust of the patients' exhale, which is bad for transmitting the virus.   If someone comes up with a partially printable solution for that, then perhaps there might be some CPAP/BiPAP models that would only need a firmware hack?  I have no idea, just throwing some ideas out there.
There are exhaust filters but they apparently don't fit on intubation pipes. -.- But a 3D printed adapter can be used. The problem is that you don't want to pump bone dry air into patients but on the exhale the moisture makes the filters less effective over time.

Here is a video of the concept I am working on:

Obviously you have to imagine the bag beeing squeezed.^^
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 10:22:41 pm by Blitzschnitzel »
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2020, 10:26:36 pm »
How about passing the exhaust through a chamber with a powerful UV germicidal lamp? If ordinary germicidal tubes are insufficient, there are mercury arc lamps with orders of magnitude higher loading that produce copious amounts of UV in addition to high temperature. Another option is just plain old heat, pass the exhaust through a heat exchanger, bringing the temperature up to several hundred degrees which would vaporize any biological material is no problem.
 

Offline BlitzschnitzelTopic starter

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2020, 10:33:02 pm »
That is a great idea. Heat will defiantly work but if you have ten patients in a room that might get quite toasty. Do you know how strongly UV radiation affects viruses? My guess would be that they are even stronger affected as bacteria as they don't have a cell around their RNA package.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2020, 10:56:29 pm »
I don't, but surely it is something that somebody out there is knowledgeable about.

Thinking about the volume of air I typically exhale I'd be shocked if more than 100W is required to heat it well over the point where it kills anything in it quite possibly less. That is not a large heat load, IIRC it's roughly what our bodies produce. Even if it was enough heat to be an issue the hot sterilized air could be vented outside. I'm thinking something similar to the heating element used in a hot air soldering station.
 

Offline pipe2null

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2020, 11:18:16 pm »
I wonder how well off-the-shelf solutions might work, air purifying with built-in UV:
959472-0
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004VGIGVY/

Not necessarily this specific model (that I have in my house), but something like it?  At first glance, I'd be concerned that the UV isn't powerful enough and the fan increasing air circulation in a patient's room would compound the problem if UV is not keeping up with the flow.  But if the lamp is actually bright enough, then the remainder of the partial solution is the 3d printed adapter for intubation if applicable, tubing, a 3d printed hose mount to hold the exhaust tube on the air purifier intake, plus a healthy amount of duct tape to only partially obstruct the intake (don't want a complete vacuum...) and make really sure the hose is securely mounted/taped to the intake.  If something like this could work, then you could tube up several patients to the same unit.
 

Offline rdl

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2020, 01:42:23 am »
MIT is working on this. Lots of info available there.

https://e-vent.mit.edu/
 

Offline pipe2null

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2020, 02:13:44 am »
Great links!  I clicked through and found a study done on killing SARS virus (somewhat similar to COVID-19) that includes UVC and heat exposure times/intensities.  Numbers in units I don't fully understand, but might make sense to someone else here.  The air purifier I linked earlier is advertised as UVC, but no idea on the intensity, etc, or if the light is concentrated on the filter where viruses "might" get caught long enough for full exposure...  Hmm...
 

Offline BlitzschnitzelTopic starter

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2020, 02:15:44 am »
The results from a quick google research all revolve around water as a medium or dry on hard surfaces. I don't know if those recommendations can be translated to an aerosol. I don’t think you need a fan to move the air because the exhaled air comes through a pressure valve anyways. Just the airstream from the exhale could move the air along. You could have something similar to a distillation spiral around an UV lamp with reflectors on the outside.

MIT is working on this. Lots of info available there.
https://e-vent.mit.edu/
There are probably a dozen projects working with Ambubags right now and they share their designs with each other. :)
 

Offline pipe2null

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2020, 03:01:09 am »
Hmm.  My current thought is passing the exhaled air through a filter and illuminating one or both sides of the filter with UVC.  Provided the light penetrates deep enough on/in the filter to reach trapped viruses, the exposure time would be significantly increased since the virus is trapped and you might not need as intense a UVC source.  I'm not sure if generated heat from the lamp would help keep the filter dry, or extend the useful period of the filter itself.  I only mentioned the air purifier thing since it's an off the shelf product that includes some type of filtration with UVC.  Plus a fan providing a little negative air pressure helps make sure contaminated air gets where you intend it to go.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2020, 03:17:24 am »
Even if it was enough heat to be an issue the hot sterilized air could be vented outside.
If you're going to vent it outside, just send a powerful arc through it, which will give you intense heat, lots of UV, and lots of ozone.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Open Source Ventilator
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2020, 03:41:51 am »
An arc is probably overkill, it will quickly deteriorate electrodes and require a high current power supply. A mercury discharge lamp is a much safer and simpler way to generate UV and a nochrome heater is a simple and reliable way to heat air. We don't need to hear it to thousands of degrees.
 


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