EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: ali_asadzadeh on May 14, 2019, 01:20:57 pm
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Hi,
I'm planing for 2-3 years ahead of my company,
So china should be in the equations, I want to know is it a good practice to open an office in there? I mean is it possible for non-chines people to buy property in there? what sort of numbers should I expect for buying a normal office (around 100 Square meter) , something like Dave office? what sort of opportunities does this give us? what pitfalls are there?
Is shenzhen the place to go? or do you suggest other places?
Any Ideas are welcome.
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Hi,
I'm planing for 2-3 years ahead of my company,
So china should be in the equations, I want to know is it a good practice to open an office in there? I mean is it possible for non-chines people to buy property in there? what sort of numbers should I expect for buying a normal office (around 100 Square meter) , something like Dave office? what sort of opportunities does this give us? what pitfalls are there?
Is shenzhen the place to go? or do you suggest other places?
Any Ideas are welcome.
Having an office in China isn't the important bit. Working with people who know how to navigate the Chinese market and culture are. If you try to do it all by yourself, you're inevitably going to learn a lot of expensive lessons. Find someone you can trust to help you.
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Having an office in China isn't the important bit. Working with people who know how to navigate the Chinese market and culture are. If you try to do it all by yourself, you're inevitably going to learn a lot of expensive lessons. Find someone you can trust to help you.
Thanks for the Tip,but already I have many good friends there,helping me :) But being there, finding the real deal like big companies I think is the real deal.
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Having an office in China isn't the important bit. Working with people who know how to navigate the Chinese market and culture are. If you try to do it all by yourself, you're inevitably going to learn a lot of expensive lessons. Find someone you can trust to help you.
This, 100% this!
Lots of non-Chinese people make the mistake of thinking that if they do everything right in china their business will be successful.
They fail to realize that china is not a fair place for non-Chinese businesses.
China law will always favour Chinese citizens over foreign citizens.
So it's trivially easy for a Chinese person to scam your company, take everything you have, and get away with it. Even when there is a mountain of evidence that you are the victim.
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http://dangerousprototypes.com/blog/2016/01/26/how-to-start-a-chinese-company/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/blog/2016/01/26/how-to-start-a-chinese-company/)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDuy7mBzCEk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDuy7mBzCEk)
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This, 100% this!
So how big companies play there?
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(youtube)
Can we get a one sentence summary? Listening to these guys prattle on for 1/4 an hour on the chance they might actually get to the point eventually isn't so enticing.
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Can we get a one sentence summary? Listening to these guys prattle on for 1/4 an hour on the chance they might actually get to the point eventually isn't so enticing.
Yeah, I hate posts with a video and no comment. My browser does not display or play videos but even if it did I would not be clicking. Give me a summary of what point it makes and why it is interesting to watch and maybe I'll watch it.
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I'm planing for 2-3 years ahead of my company,
So china should be in the equations, I want to know is it a good practice to open an office in there?
That might depend, just ever so slightly, on what your company does. :P
Could you briefly explain to us what goods or services you sell, and to whom?
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Having an office in China isn't the important bit. Working with people who know how to navigate the Chinese market and culture are. If you try to do it all by yourself, you're inevitably going to learn a lot of expensive lessons. Find someone you can trust to help you.
This, 100% this!
Lots of non-Chinese people make the mistake of thinking that if they do everything right in china their business will be successful.
They fail to realize that china is not a fair place for non-Chinese businesses.
China law will always favour Chinese citizens over foreign citizens.
So it's trivially easy for a Chinese person to scam your company, take everything you have, and get away with it. Even when there is a mountain of evidence that you are the victim.
Here we go again. [sigh] It seems no thread is complete without someone bashing China for no reason.
May I ask where you get the knowledge or authority to speak like that? Is it personal experience?
Because I have been traveling to China, for business and pleasure, for over twenty years now, and my personal experience is quite the opposite.
Dealing with bureaucrats and authorities is generally a pain anywhere in the world but in China it is a pleasure when you compare it with America. I have seen and heard a thousand times more horror stories from foreigners in America than in China. To me the Chinese authorities have always been nice and respectful which is more than I can say about many other countries. Recently getting a visa has become more complicated and expensive ... which they do in reciprocity for western countries making it more difficult for them to get visas.
My business dealings in China have always been pleasant and productive. I am sure there are swindlers in China just like they are in every other country and being unfamiliar with the local uses and customs just makes foreigners an easier target. You need to be careful everywhere and more so where you are in unfamiliar territory.
Westerners who go to China with an attitude of superiority soon learn a lesson and then blame it on the Chinese when maybe they should have been more careful. People are waiting to rip you off just the same in Washington or New York as in Shanghai or Shenzhen. On the other hand if you are prudent you will find good business partners anywhere.
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Thanks for the Tip,but already I have many good friends there,helping me :) But being there, finding the real deal like big companies I think is the real deal.
So why are you asking for advice from us and not from them?
Also, if you are considering some serious investment I would recommend getting advice from local consulting companies which do just that: provide consulting and advice to foreign investors. You can find many both in Hong Kong and in China proper. Just search for - business consultants china - or similar terms.
The advice you get here might be well intended but it is worth what you pay for it.
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I think the most important question is why. What are you hoping to achieve by having a presence in China.
If it's for quick access to prototyping services, parts, and tools, which is the reason I'm here, then any old town will do because logistics coverage is very good in most of the country and cheap (unless you go to Tibet or some shit like that). Even the small towns you've never heard about are densely populated and are convenient to live in, and rent can be as cheap as 1000yen ($160) a month. I can certainly recommend housing an R&D team in a cheap residential apartment in a suburb in China ;)
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http://dangerousprototypes.com/blog/2016/01/26/how-to-start-a-chinese-company/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/blog/2016/01/26/how-to-start-a-chinese-company/)
Wow :o
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDuy7mBzCEk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDuy7mBzCEk)
The part about his friend selling up in Canada and starting a business in China and then getting muscled out by the local partners, welcome to China.
Why any foreigner would want to move to and start a business in a communist controlled country like that is beyond me.
What's the appeal? Opportunity? At what cost?
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(youtube)
Can we get a one sentence summary? Listening to these guys prattle on for 1/4 an hour on the chance they might actually get to the point eventually isn't so enticing.
Yes, I've listened to these guys quite a few times because the titles are of interest, but they never seem get get to the point (I'm aware of the irony, being the Waffle Master). It's just them riding around and rambling which is kinda nice in it's own way, but not if you want info.
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http://dangerousprototypes.com/blog/2016/01/26/how-to-start-a-chinese-company/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/blog/2016/01/26/how-to-start-a-chinese-company/)
Not very convincing to me. I think they are still accustomed to the western way, getting licenses and certifications and everything. In reality you can simply start doing business, no registrations or licenses needed. (Provided you can remain in the country.) There's nothing special about transferring money into China, no one cares. However don't try to transfer money the other direction, it's simply forbidden.
I still think the best way is to find a chinese national and have them be the face of your company in China, because you still need a national ID to do certain things like signing up for a seller account on taobao.
Most importantly do not present your company as foreign owned!!!!!! Have chinese nationals be the sole owners and make it every way appear to be a domestic small business.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDuy7mBzCEk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDuy7mBzCEk)
It seems nobody has asked the burning question:-
"Why is the number on the Police Officer's shirt a mirror image?" ;D
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http://dangerousprototypes.com/blog/2016/01/26/how-to-start-a-chinese-company/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/blog/2016/01/26/how-to-start-a-chinese-company/)
Not very convincing to me. I think they are still accustomed to the western way, getting licenses and certifications and everything. In reality you can simply start doing business, no registrations or licenses needed. (Provided you can remain in the country.) There's nothing special about transferring money into China, no one cares. However don't try to transfer money the other direction, it's simply forbidden.
What's your idea of doing business? Selling veggies from a street corner?
I still think the best way is to find a chinese national and have them be the face of your company in China, because you still need a national ID to do certain things like signing up for a seller account on taobao.
You cannot sell on Taobao unless you have registered a business. New rules this year.
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This, 100% this!
So how big companies play there?
Big companies always play by different rules from small companies. Scale changes many things.
A big company only goes into China in a big way. That means they are fully prepared to pump in the resources to get everything set up well (although, of course, many screw up badly, and quickly exit the market). A key part of setting up well (and its just as true if you want to do well setting up in India or other countries) is to find some really good, well connected, locals, and reward them well enough that they are truly on your side. This doesn't just mean paying them well. It means offering them a pretty solid long term future in your business. If they think you are only going to be there for a short time, you'll never get commitment from them. You won't be there day by day, to supervise the locals. You need a core team of locals who are highly self-motivated to make your business succeed, because they will also prosper.
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From the article:
There are three reasons foreigners start a Chinese company: to sell to China’s domestic market, to get legal residency, and to work with small suppliers who can’t accept foreign currency. We are only interested in the latter.
If you are only interested in accessing the services in China then setting up a business there is overkill. Simply have your R&D team located in China, everything else can be at home. You can also do manufacturing, shipping and fulfillment from China but for all legal purposes (including taxes) your company resides at home. That's how I'm operating.
If you want to sell to the Chinese market, don't even think about it. It's a closed market with built in discrimination, and the only way to do it is to set up a separate business that is completely owned by Chinese nationals and pass as a domestic company.
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Could you briefly explain to us what goods or services you sell, and to whom?
My business is mainly products that are for the smart grid, like schneider parts, example, protection Relays, etc...
So why are you asking for advice from us and not from them?
Because I have only buy parts from there, nothing more.... And I do want to know your experiences if you have one :)
I think the most important question is why. What are you hoping to achieve by having a presence in China.
Manufacturing better and cheaper, And most importantly selling worldwide :) ;)
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The part about his friend selling up in Canada and starting a business in China and then getting muscled out by the local partners, welcome to China.
You can say that about any country. If it is in China we blame the country while if it is in a western country we blame the individual.
I went to the dentist yesterday and the little turbine that drives the drill was failing and seemed to lose power. I joked and said "Is it made by Boeing by any chance?" I could've said "Is it made in China" and the joke would've been just as effective. It is our prejudice. If it is American we blame the individual or company but if it is Chinese then it is the entire country and culture.
Why any foreigner would want to move to and start a business in a communist controlled country like that is beyond me.
What's the appeal? Opportunity? At what cost?
Communist? China's economy is raw capitalism. Anyone calling it "communism" has no understanding of China. It is pure prejudice.
Why start a business in China? Well, there are thousands of foreign companies doing very well there. Let us put things in perspective. Three years ago the market for passenger vehicles was (in millions):
- USA: 7.5
- EU: 14.5
- China: 21.5
My guess is that their share has grown since then.
You could find similar statistics for many other consumer goods, phones, etc.
Thousands of foreign companies are doing business in China very successfully. German and French companies are selling engineering services and building hospitals, trains, and everything else you can think of. Others are manufacturing their products there.
I have personally seen and followed the construction of the Guangzhou Metro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangzhou_Metro) and it is an amazing feat. I have not seen any place in the world develop so fast.
And I do not share or believe in the moral superiority of western-style democracy. I find it disturbing and similar to those who believe in one true god or one true cause. It is fanatical and dangerous. Just let each country govern themselves and leave them alone. China does not tell us how to govern ourselves and we should return the courtesy. They are doing pretty well; just leave them alone. Nobody is forcing anyone to go there.
Bureaucracy may be bad in China but it is pretty bad in western countries too. I hate bureaucracy and I believe it is a cancer which lives off healthy parts of the economy. Everywhere. We should try to reduce bureaucracy everywhere. The difference is that in China you are more often dealing with human beings whereas in America you are dealing with bureaucrats who do not care in the least about the reasonableness of the situation or the hardship they may cause. They will ruin your life, take your baby or shoot you dead because they are certain of the supreme superiority of their morals and if the god of democracy demands your soul or your life then so be it. Very similar to those we hate because their beliefs are that it is us who are in the wrong.
Us westerners would do well to stop preaching and start fixing our own countries as there is much to repair. We have a very bad record of "civilizing" other cultures. Very bad.
Over a hundred years ago the Chinese refused to buy our opium and we punished them accordingly. For the following hundred years we invaded them and imposed our superior force on them. I think it is high time we STFU.
In 1901 Mark Twain said it very well in his article To The Person Sitting In Darkness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_the_Person_Sitting_in_Darkness).
Shall we? That is, shall we go on conferring our Civilization upon the peoples that sit in darkness, or shall we give those poor things a rest? Shall we bang right ahead in our old-time, loud, pious way, and commit the new century to the game; or shall we sober up and sit down and think it over first? Would it not be prudent to get our Civilization-tools together, and see how much stock is left on hand in the way of Glass Beads and Theology, and Maxim Guns and Hymn Books, and Trade-Gin and Torches of Progress and Enlightenment (patent adjustable ones, good to fire villages with, upon occasion), and balance the books, and arrive at the profit and loss, so that we may intelligently decide whether to continue the business or sell out the property and start a new Civilization Scheme on the proceeds?
Extending the Blessings of Civilization to our Brother who Sits in Darkness has been a good trade and has paid well, on the whole; and there is money in it yet, if carefully worked -- but not enough, in my judgement, to make any considerable risk advisable. The People that Sit in Darkness are getting to be too scarce -- too scarce and too shy. And such darkness as is now left is really of but an indifferent quality, and not dark enough for the game. The most of those People that Sit in Darkness have been furnished with more light than was good for them or profitable for us. We have been injudicious.
The Blessings-of-Civilization Trust, wisely and cautiously administered, is a Daisy. There is more money in it, more territory, more sovereignty, and other kinds of emolument, than there is in any other game that is played. But Christendom has been playing it badly of late years, and must certainly suffer by it, in my opinion. She has been so eager to get every stake that appeared on the green cloth, that the People who Sit in Darkness have noticed it -- they have noticed it, and have begun to show alarm. They have become suspicious of the Blessings of Civilization. More -- they have begun to examine them. This is not well. The Blessings of Civilization are all right, and a good commercial property; there could not be a better, in a dim light. In the right kind of a light, and at a proper distance, with the goods a little out of focus, they furnish this desirable exhibit to the Gentlemen who Sit in Darkness:
LOVE,
JUSTICE,
GENTLENESS,
CHRISTIANITY,
PROTECTION TO THE WEAK,
TEMPERANCE, LAW AND ORDER,
LIBERTY,
EQUALITY,
HONORABLE DEALING,
MERCY,
EDUCATION,
-- and so on.
There. Is it good? Sir, it is pie. It will bring into camp any idiot that sits in darkness anywhere. But not if we adulterate it. It is proper to be emphatic upon that point. This brand is strictly for Export -- apparently. Apparently. Privately and confidentially, it is nothing of the kind. Privately and confidentially, it is merely an outside cover, gay and pretty and attractive, displaying the special patterns of our Civilization which we reserve for Home Consumption, while inside the bale is the Actual Thing that the Customer Sitting in Darkness buys with his blood and tears and land and liberty. That Actual Thing is, indeed, Civilization, but it is only for Export. Is there a difference between the two brands? In some of the details, yes.
We all know that the Business is being ruined. The reason is not far to seek. It is because our Mr. McKinley, and Mr. Chamberlain, and the Kaiser, and the Czar and the French have been exporting the Actual Thing with the outside cover left off. This is bad for the Game. It shows that these new players of it are not sufficiently acquainted with it.
That was in 1901 and we are still preaching to the people "sitting in the darkness".
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My business is mainly products that are for the smart grid, like schneider parts, example, protection Relays, etc...
It's still not quite clear to me what you do. Do you distribute parts (from Schneider etc.), or design an manufacture your own?
Manufacturing better and cheaper, And most importantly selling worldwide :) ;)
_______________________________________
You can order parts from www.ASiDesigner.com (http://www.ASiDesigner.com)
we are a wire-based company
As a first step to selling worldwide, may I suggest that you overhaul your website? The option to switch it to English is very well-hidden; visitors who don't read Arabic(?) have to poke around to find it. And it does not work at all for me, in two different browsers.
So -- no, contrary to what your signature says, at this time I cannot order parts from www.asidesigner.com (http://www.asidesigner.com). ::)
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If you want to sell to the Chinese market, don't even think about it. It's a closed market with built in discrimination, and the only way to do it is to set up a separate business that is completely owned by Chinese nationals and pass as a domestic company.
There are thousands of companies importing foreign goods into China and you can find imported goods everywhere. You can find California oranges and nuts in any grocery store. Danish cookies are ubiquitous. You can find wines from around the world. I have seen home appliances made in Spain which was very surprising to me because you don't see them in Spain. Everything here is made in China. Go figure. In China there are foreign engineering firms selling their design and consulting. Germans, French etc. and even some multinational like an architecture company I know which has people from so many countries. I could make a list of Spanish companies selling in China. Although they have sold their interest there and are no longer in China a picturesque case is Chupa Chups (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chupa_Chups) a Spanish lollipop manufacturer who entered the Chinese market over 25 years ago and made it really big there. Spain also sells buses, wine, etc.
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Over a hundred years ago the Chinese refused to buy our opium and we punished them accordingly. For the following hundred years we invaded them and imposed our superior force on them. I think it is high time we STFU.
This ^ and it all started over trade imbalances with massive (for the day) exports of tea to the British.
Both them and the Yanks took exception and wielded their might upon the Chinese seaboard to keep the ports open to their unsavory drug supplies and more traditional trade.
The Chinese learnt a big lesson only to go on and make products the whole world now wants so that now the trade imbalance is again fully reversed.
Trump can see it and hence his tariffs to attempt to address or at least curb the imbalance.
It might seem his recent increases confirm his initial attempts did little.
Funny now the shoe is now on the other foot !
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Over a hundred years ago the Chinese refused to buy our opium and we punished them accordingly. For the following hundred years we invaded them and imposed our superior force on them. I think it is high time we STFU.
This ^ and it all started over trade imbalances with massive (for the day) exports of tea to the British.
Both them and the Yanks took exception and wielded their might upon the Chinese seaboard to keep the ports open to their unsavory drug supplies and more traditional trade.
The Chinese learnt a big lesson only to go on and make products the whole world now wants so that now the trade imbalance is again fully reversed.
Trump can see it and hence his tariffs to attempt to address or at least curb the imbalance.
It might seem his recent increases confirm his initial attempts did little.
Funny now the shoe is now on the other foot !
Most of history looks really messed up if you try to judge it by modern standards. In the 19th century opium was as legitimate a product as tobacco - another product that doesn't look as legitimate today, although it is still legal. Opium was widely available in the UK, and the average middle class British lady spent much of her time high on opium. The British were trying to exchange a product they had (opium), that was popular in China for a product China had (tea) that was popular in the UK. The Chinese authorities were only pissed off that their working class was using opium, and not working hard enough. Maybe the British just made it too cheap.
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Over a hundred years ago the Chinese refused to buy our opium and we punished them accordingly. For the following hundred years we invaded them and imposed our superior force on them. I think it is high time we STFU.
This ^ and it all started over trade imbalances with massive (for the day) exports of tea to the British.
Both them and the Yanks took exception and wielded their might upon the Chinese seaboard to keep the ports open to their unsavory drug supplies and more traditional trade.
The Chinese learnt a big lesson only to go on and make products the whole world now wants so that now the trade imbalance is again fully reversed.
Trump can see it and hence his tariffs to attempt to address or at least curb the imbalance.
It might seem his recent increases confirm his initial attempts did little.
Funny now the shoe is now on the other foot !
Most of history looks really messed up if you try to judge it by modern standards. In the 19th century opium was as legitimate a product as tobacco - another product that doesn't look as legitimate today, although it is still legal. Opium was widely available in the UK, and the average middle class British lady spent much of her time high on opium. The British were trying to exchange a product they had (opium), that was popular in China for a product China had (tea) that was popular in the UK. The Chinese authorities were only pissed off that their working class was using opium, and not working hard enough. Maybe the British just made it too cheap.
Isn't that just the same reason that western industry has flocked to China ?
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Over a hundred years ago the Chinese refused to buy our opium and we punished them accordingly. For the following hundred years we invaded them and imposed our superior force on them. I think it is high time we STFU.
This ^ and it all started over trade imbalances with massive (for the day) exports of tea to the British.
Both them and the Yanks took exception and wielded their might upon the Chinese seaboard to keep the ports open to their unsavory drug supplies and more traditional trade.
The Chinese learnt a big lesson only to go on and make products the whole world now wants so that now the trade imbalance is again fully reversed.
Trump can see it and hence his tariffs to attempt to address or at least curb the imbalance.
It might seem his recent increases confirm his initial attempts did little.
Funny now the shoe is now on the other foot !
Most of history looks really messed up if you try to judge it by modern standards. In the 19th century opium was as legitimate a product as tobacco - another product that doesn't look as legitimate today, although it is still legal. Opium was widely available in the UK, and the average middle class British lady spent much of her time high on opium. The British were trying to exchange a product they had (opium), that was popular in China for a product China had (tea) that was popular in the UK. The Chinese authorities were only pissed off that their working class was using opium, and not working hard enough. Maybe the British just made it too cheap.
Isn't that just the same reason that western industry has flocked to China ?
As well as all the western companies looking for cheap production, there are also many western companies only looking at China as a market. This is especially true of luxury goods companies, selling only expensive western made goods in China. Some of these make the goods they sell in the west in China, while making the goods they sell in China in the west. There is no one single simple explanation for any international relationship, as these relationships have to be bilateral in some sense to be sustainable.
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Presuming you're from Japan (since you used Yen rather than Yuan for the sign ¥ in another thread), do you have to pay double tax to both countries?
Because I'm thinking to move to Japan. US is too toxic at this moment, and I think I need a buffer zone between China and US. Knowing something, particularly about business, in Japan, can help me greatly.
Yeah I'm from Kitakyo, Chugoku, Japan (北京, 中国省, 日本). jk.
My weeabooism confused you LOL.
I don't pay taxes in China; my business is based in my home country and profits are reported there, and I also don't sell to Chinese market. I'm not sure about the actual rules on paper in China, but if you want to be safe I would avoid having too much of a "presence" in China; The most I would do is register a shell corporation in China that does contract manufacturing for your parent corporation in the west/Japan, and the Chinese corporation would report fairly little profit. Your parent corporation can do some final assembly and this is where most of the "value add" can be accounted. For an R&D team in China I wouldn't worry about it, they can just be remotely employed by your parent corporation.
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A little math exercise, left to the reader:
If everybody full-quotes the prior post, what will the growth rate of the thread be?
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Over a hundred years ago the Chinese refused to buy our opium and we punished them accordingly. For the following hundred years we invaded them and imposed our superior force on them. I think it is high time we STFU.
This ^ and it all started over trade imbalances with massive (for the day) exports of tea to the British.
Both them and the Yanks took exception and wielded their might upon the Chinese seaboard to keep the ports open to their unsavory drug supplies and more traditional trade.
The Chinese learnt a big lesson only to go on and make products the whole world now wants so that now the trade imbalance is again fully reversed.
Trump can see it and hence his tariffs to attempt to address or at least curb the imbalance.
It might seem his recent increases confirm his initial attempts did little.
Funny now the shoe is now on the other foot !
Most of history looks really messed up if you try to judge it by modern standards. In the 19th century opium was as legitimate a product as tobacco - another product that doesn't look as legitimate today, although it is still legal. Opium was widely available in the UK, and the average middle class British lady spent much of her time high on opium. The British were trying to exchange a product they had (opium), that was popular in China for a product China had (tea) that was popular in the UK. The Chinese authorities were only pissed off that their working class was using opium, and not working hard enough. Maybe the British just made it too cheap.
Isn't that just the same reason that western industry has flocked to China ?
As well as all the western companies looking for cheap production, there are also many western companies only looking at China as a market. This is especially true of luxury goods companies, selling only expensive western made goods in China. Some of these make the goods they sell in the west in China, while making the goods they sell in China in the west. There is no one single simple explanation for any international relationship, as these relationships have to be bilateral in some sense to be sustainable.
This ^ but who makes that call ?
The Chinese have been in a phase of rapid growth and that needs be funded and from their exports so it's entirely in their interests to maintain a trade imbalance and significantly in their favor.
Is their growth sustainable ? Is the supply of raw material to maintain that growth sustainable ?
Is the international will to sell their raw material mines, land and assets sustainable ?
All big picture stuff and I don't know the answers however for some time we've seen gubbermints go all squishy to sustain good relationships with the Chinese in order for them to keep buying our produce/products.
They call it bilateral trade, yes there are 2 parties but one holds the other by the $ goulies.
And yes, I'm a small part of the problem. :P
A little math exercise, left to the reader:
If everybody full-quotes the prior post, what will the growth rate of the thread be?
25 posts/page. :P
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For my entire life I thought it was American.
Now I have something more by Spanish, other than my JBC.
I have had JBC irons all my life and I had no idea they were Spanish! Not that I had ever given it any thought but now I am surprised. If I had to guess I would have said with a name like JBC they sound German. I have several JBC's by my side right now. One just died and I need to replace it.
From around, roughly, 1960 to 1990, Spain was the "China of Europe". Competitive (low) wages and stable (authoritarian) government made it a good place to manufacture and then a good place to sell consumer goods. I understand well the process China is going through because it is very similar to what happened in Spain. It was a process that developed and enrichened Spain like is happening in China now.
Spain made many passive and active components. Piher was a big name at the time and you could find their components everywhere.
But it takes a special kind of genius to go sell lollipops in China :)
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This ^ and it all started over trade imbalances with massive (for the day) exports of tea to the British.
Both them and the Yanks took exception and wielded their might upon the Chinese seaboard to keep the ports open to their unsavory drug supplies and more traditional trade.
The Chinese learnt a big lesson only to go on and make products the whole world now wants so that now the trade imbalance is again fully reversed.
Trump can see it and hence his tariffs to attempt to address or at least curb the imbalance.
It might seem his recent increases confirm his initial attempts did little.
Funny now the shoe is now on the other foot !
People keep using the term "trade balance" or "trade imbalance" as if it's some qualitative indicator. That mostly seems to be an invention of Trump. It's nothing like a regular balance where a positive number is good and a negative number is bad. Somehow that's the story that seems to have stuck.
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Most of history looks really messed up if you try to judge it by modern standards. In the 19th century opium was as legitimate a product as tobacco - another product that doesn't look as legitimate today, although it is still legal. Opium was widely available in the UK, and the average middle class British lady spent much of her time high on opium. The British were trying to exchange a product they had (opium), that was popular in China for a product China had (tea) that was popular in the UK. The Chinese authorities were only pissed off that their working class was using opium, and not working hard enough. Maybe the British just made it too cheap.
It is not about the opium. It is about imposing our values, culture and beliefs by force on other people and believing we had the right to do so while not granting others the same right.
A hundred years ago anglos would go around the world and say "look at these naked savages! Let us make them cover up their bodies like civilized people! Look at these degenerates having sex with their own sex! Let us punish them as they deserve!"
Now it is "look at these ignorant these ignorant so and sos who make everybody cover up! Look at these ignorant so-and-sos who condemn homosexuality".
We change our values and notions but we never change our belief that we are superior to the others and the others should just do as we say (while we rob them blind, that never changes). We might have made mistakes a century ago but by golly we are right now!
We always considered to have the right to go to China or Japan or anywhere else and impose our wills by force. But we never granted others the right to do it to us. In reality it is the same thing.
"Asia is not going to be civilised after the methods of the West. There is too much Asia and she is too old."
- Rudyard Kipling
We and They
Rudyard Kipling
FATHER, Mother, and Me
Sister and Auntie say
All the people like us are We,
And every one else is They.
And They live over the sea,
While We live over the way,
But - would you believe it? - They look upon We
As only a sort of They !
We eat pork and beef
With cow-horn-handled knives.
They who gobble Their rice off a leaf,
Are horrified out of Their lives;
And They who live up a tree,
And feast on grubs and clay,
(Isn't it scandalous?) look upon We
As a simply disgusting They!
We shoot birds with a gun.
They stick lions with spears.
Their full-dress is un-.
We dress up to Our ears.
They like Their friends for tea.
We like Our friends to stay;
And, after all that, They look upon We
As an utterly ignorant They!
We eat kitcheny food.
We have doors that latch.
They drink milk or blood,
Under an open thatch.
We have Doctors to fee.
They have Wizards to pay.
And (impudent heathen!) They look upon We
As a quite impossible They!
All good people agree,
And all good people say,
All nice people, like Us, are We
And every one else is They:
But if you cross over the sea,
Instead of over the way,
You may end by (think of it!) looking on We
As only a sort of They !
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At the same time that sounds like a convenient exist to ignore human rights and exploit whatever your like. "Their ways are different. It's better to leave them to it" while people work in what's essentially or outright involuntary servitude.
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People keep using the term "trade balance" or "trade imbalance" as if it's some qualitative indicator. That mostly seems to be an invention of Trump. It's nothing like a regular balance where a positive number is good and a negative number is bad. Somehow that's the story that seems to have stuck.
+1 :-+
And for those who is old enough know these very well ... hints on how giants were created ...
60s to 90s -> Sony, Toshiba, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Nikon ... etc
90s to <todays> -> Daewoo, LG, Hyundai, Samsung, Sung-Kyong, KIA ... etc
Never heard too much noise about trade in-balance in the past or even now for these countries, did you ? Or in the old days people were so stupid that didn't aware/understand of trade balance ? :-DD
But these countries above are special, they will bark if asked, jump if shouted at, of course mandatory wiggling included.
The stunts we're seeing, say starting at Obama era was polite, Trump is out spoken, next Trump's successor may use different approach, yet, all have the same simple objective which is obedience and total submission from China. The ideal situation is make China kneels. :P
As the outspoken Trump's style, see what happened to Iran and Venezuela. While North Korea has been bullied for decades, even from Bush era. >:D
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I found it very interesting to watch The Story of China recently, a BBC 6 part doco.
Most revealing was the last episode that details much of what has been discussed here and gives good insight to understand the China of today.
It rambles on some but gives good details of the major happenings of the time that helped steer China into what we know today.
You can find the ripped doco here but be warned your antivirus need be up to scratch to take care of the popups.
https://ihavenotv.com/the-age-of-revolution-the-story-of-china
Part 6 is a worthy watch.
The opium wars and western invasions are all detailed.
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The most interesting subject, regarding trade balance and even critical matter such as national security that is currently happening in Western world is the 5G.
As the Britons just freshly announced, that Union Jackers will not obey on what have been commanded by His Majesty King Trump on Hua Wei's affair. :-DD
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At the same time that sounds like a convenient exist to ignore human rights and exploit whatever your like. "Their ways are different. It's better to leave them to it" while people work in what's essentially or outright involuntary servitude.
Oh my! People are suffering! Let's kill them all and stop their suffering and that way we can steal their stuff too!
Western intervention has never made life better for the natives. Never. Ever.
Natives made life better for themselves when they managed to kick out the westerners and take control of their own countries. Just ask China.
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That America believes it has any standing or right to lecture on Human Rights issues is a cruel joke.
America has the highest incarceration rate in the world, way above any other country, including China. An individual in America has a much higher chance of being in prison than in any other country, including China.
An individual in America has a much higher chance of being shot and killed by the police in America than in China.
Life expectancy in China is similar to Cuba's and way below other developed countries. Which is an indication of a very poor health care system. (The best in the world for the rich, the poor can just die in the street.)
In their efforts to improve conditions in other countries, America's wars have killed, wounded and displaced millions. All with the ostensible aim of spreading democracy, freedom and American bullshit. In the name of democracy democratic governments are toppled and friendly dictatorships installed in their place. How many times has China done this in the last two hundred years?
In the name of human rights America jails and mistreats immigrants to the point where infants have been forever separated from their families.
The world would be a much better place if America stopped trying to save other countries and would just mind its own business. That America feels they have anything to say in matters of Human Rights just shows they are delusional. And dangerous.
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Oh my! People are suffering! Let's kill them all and stop their suffering and that way we can steal their stuff too!
Western intervention has never made life better for the natives. Never. Ever.
Natives made life better for themselves when they managed to kick out the westerners and take control of their own countries. Just ask China.
It seems China is dealing with its share of disputed territories. Neither western nor eastern countries are unique in that regard. Minding their business isn't what geopolitical powers tend to do.
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It seems China is dealing with its share of disputed territories. Neither western nor eastern countries are unique in that regard. Minding their business isn't what geopolitical powers tend to do.
My objection is to people, governments and countries who say they care about the well-being of people in other countries when all they really care about is getting gasoline and other goods a few cents cheaper and they don't care at all if babies and puppies are tortured to death in order to achieve that.
The sole and only reason some American worker might mention the well-being of Chinese workers is not because he cares, he doesn't, it is because he doesn't like the competition and he wants that worker in China to be without a job. That is what he really wants.
Western governments preach a good sermon but their acts are absolutely contrary to what they preach. Moral people do not start wars. Moral people try to diminish suffering by helping the victims. There is a great shortage of such people in this world and they are often persecuted by their own governments.
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My objection is to people, governments and countries who say they care about the well-being of people in other countries when all they really care about is getting gasoline and other goods a few cents cheaper and they don't care at all if babies and puppies are tortured to death in order to achieve that.
The sole and only reason some American worker might mention the well-being of Chinese workers is not because he cares, he doesn't, it is because he doesn't like the competition and he wants that worker in China to be without a job. That is what he really wants.
Western governments preach a good sermon but their acts are absolutely contrary to what they preach. Moral people do not start wars. Moral people try to diminish suffering by helping the victims. There is a great shortage of such people in this world and they are often persecuted by their own governments.
Once again your comment seems aimed at the US, while in all reality any relevant power has shown this behaviour. Current day US, Russia or China, former Britain, Spain and Portugal. They all did or do the same things, flavoured to suit their era and culture.
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The part about his friend selling up in Canada and starting a business in China and then getting muscled out by the local partners, welcome to China.
You can say that about any country. If it is in China we blame the country while if it is in a western country we blame the individual.
[/quote]
I don't think so. Watch the videos from the guys linked above, all they ever do is complain about how the Chinese "system" and "culture" is just totally different to western style cultures, and you can expect little help if any from the government or the legal system. This is in stark contrast the western system.
And I hear the same thing time and time again from everyone who tries to set up a business there.
Well, there are thousands of foreign companies doing very well there. Let us put things in perspective. Three years ago the market for passenger vehicles was (in millions):
There are just as many as many companies doing just fine out side of China. No need to move to China to be successful, it's not some magic golden ticket.
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A key part of setting up well (and its just as true if you want to do well setting up in India or other countries) is to find some really good, well connected, locals, and reward them well enough that they are truly on your side. This doesn't just mean paying them well. It means offering them a pretty solid long term future in your business. If they think you are only going to be there for a short time, you'll never get commitment from them. You won't be there day by day, to supervise the locals. You need a core team of locals who are highly self-motivated to make your business succeed, because they will also prosper.
This is why Altium's plan of moving the HQ from Australia to China failed miserably.
Not only did most of their staff eventually leave, because very few wanted to uproot and live in China.
They thought they could get plenty of cheap top notch programmers in China, and that turned out not to be the case. If you could find good programmers then they didn't stay long regardless of how much you paid them. So they ended up setting up a programming team in the Ukraine instead.
They also thought being "close to the action" in a "growth market" would be an advantage, it wasn't. Double oops.
Add on to that some major US businesses now wouldn't do business with them because they were a Chinese company, triple oops, let's move the HQ to the US instead.
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Once again your comment seems aimed at the US, while in all reality any relevant power has shown this behaviour. Current day US, Russia or China, former Britain, Spain and Portugal. They all did or do the same things, flavoured to suit their era and culture.
I said "Western Governments", not solely America.
The difference is that western governments want to sugarcoat their actions with moral bullshit about democracy and caring for the people.
I have not heard China trying to impose their values or morality on us or anybody else. Or Russia for that matter. I see them more as seeing the world as it is and dealing with it. I do not like cultures who believe they are superior and should be imposed on others for moral reasons. I certainly have never heard of China saying anything like that.
After WWII the victors founded the UN and established principles of not initiating war, respecting each other, not intervening in other countries internal affairs, etc. If anything China has respected those principles more than any of the other countries and they continue to respect them.
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I said "Western Governments", not solely America.
The difference is that western governments want to sugarcoat their actions with moral bullshit about democracy and caring for the people.
I have not heard China trying to impose their values or morality on us or anybody else. Or Russia for that matter. I see them more as seeing the world as it is and dealing with it. I do not like cultures who believe they are superior and should be imposed on others for moral reasons. I certainly have never heard of China saying anything like that.
After WWII the victors founded the UN and established principles of not initiating war, respecting each other, not intervening in other countries internal affairs, etc. If anything China has respected those principles more than any of the other countries and they continue to respect them.
That seems overly naive. Have a look at the disputed territories and internal and external conflicts China and Russia are involved in. Ask the local population how they feel about it, if that's possible in the first place.
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I don't think so. Watch the videos from the guys linked above, all they ever do is complain about how the Chinese "system" and "culture" is just totally different to western style cultures, and you can expect little help if any from the government or the legal system. This is in stark contrast the western system.
And I hear the same thing time and time again from everyone who tries to set up a business there.
Different is not worse. It is different, not worse. Anyone who goes to another country and expects things to be like in his home country is in for a rude awakening. And, IMHO, is being unreasonable.
There are just as many as many companies doing just fine out side of China. No need to move to China to be successful, it's not some magic golden ticket.
Yeah, no, I did not say it is a golden ticket. Most people prefer to stay put and do stay put. Nobody is saying they should move against their will.
But the fact is that thousands of foreign companies are doing well in China, just like in Europe or America. Of course you can hear horror stories from China... just like from Europe or America.
I am old enough to remember when all the negativity was directed towards Japan for the same reasons. And just as unfounded.
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That seems overly naive. Have a look at the disputed territories and internal and external conflicts China and Russia are involved in. Ask the local population how they feel about it, if that's possible in the first place.
Are you sure territorial disputes are really comparable to invading a sovereign country halfway around the globe or inciting conflicts because of economic reasons?
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Are you sure territorial disputes are really comparable to invading a sovereign country halfway around the globe or inciting conflicts because of economic reasons?
I'm not sure the location of the sovereign nation one invades is relevant, and inciting conflicts for economical reasons seems par for the course for all the geopolitical powers past and present. Of course some countries will claim they haven't invaded sovereign nations as it was their territory to begin with, but semantics don't change the reality of it.
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I think I get it now.
When we do something it's OK because everybody does it.
When they do 1/10th of what we do they are evil and terrible people.
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I think I get it now.
When we do something it's OK because everybody does it.
When they do 1/10th of what we do they are evil and terrible people.
Apparently you have quantified what "we" and "they" do in some detail. Please provide your definitions of "we" and "they" and the data which demonstrates this 1/10 difference. I also don't think anyone here has said any atrocities are "OK", so it's probably best to refrain from making such a claim.
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At the same time that sounds like a convenient exist to ignore human rights and exploit whatever your like. "Their ways are different. It's better to leave them to it" while people work in what's essentially or outright involuntary servitude.
Oh my! People are suffering! Let's kill them all and stop their suffering and that way we can steal their stuff too!
Western intervention has never made life better for the natives. Never. Ever.
Natives made life better for themselves when they managed to kick out the westerners and take control of their own countries. Just ask China.
You condemn "Westerners" but forget the contribution of Japan, who were right in there with the best of them, initially in "ripping China off", then later, when just trade was not enough, invading the country.
I'm not absolving the West of blame, however, as without the initial "white-anting" of Chinese authority by them, in concert with Japan, the latter would have been "chucked back out on their bums", but China was such a basket case by then, Japan's aggression became much easier.
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Why any foreigner would want to move to and start a business in a communist controlled country like that is beyond me.
What's the appeal? Opportunity? At what cost?
Communist? China's economy is raw capitalism. Anyone calling it "communism" has no understanding of China. It is pure prejudice.
The economy might be "raw capitalism", but shame about everything else.
The party in charge is literally called the "Chinese Communist Party". This communist party literally approves what political parties can run for office.
China is ranked 3.3/10 on the democracy index, therefore it is classified as "authoritarian".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
Everything is filtered and controlled. You can't even officially watch my Youtube videos there FFS.
If you want to live in that and start a business there, knock yourself out. Call me when they hit "Flawed democracy" status.
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The party in charge is literally called the "Chinese Communist Party". This communist party literally approves what political parties can run for office.
Most names are not chosen to illuminate, but to obscure.
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A key part of setting up well (and its just as true if you want to do well setting up in India or other countries) is to find some really good, well connected, locals, and reward them well enough that they are truly on your side. This doesn't just mean paying them well. It means offering them a pretty solid long term future in your business. If they think you are only going to be there for a short time, you'll never get commitment from them. You won't be there day by day, to supervise the locals. You need a core team of locals who are highly self-motivated to make your business succeed, because they will also prosper.
This is why Altium's plan of moving the HQ from Australia to China failed miserably.
Not only did most of their staff eventually leave, because very few wanted to uproot and live in China.
They thought they could get plenty of cheap top notch programmers in China, and that turned out not to be the case. If you could find good programmers then they didn't stay long regardless of how much you paid them. So they ended up setting up a programming team in the Ukraine instead.
They also thought being "close to the action" in a "growth market" would be an advantage, it wasn't. Double oops.
Add on to that some major US businesses now wouldn't do business with them because they were a Chinese company, triple oops, let's move the HQ to the US instead.
This is a slightly different issue from the one I was talking about. Its generally pretty hard to keep a stable engineering team in China, even if you reward them quite well. That's true for multi-nationals and for local Chinese companies. Rewarding and keeping a management team, especially for a large company, is more practical. A company can make a much stronger commitment to a small core team than it can to a large pool of engineers. You see this starting to pay off for some really ambitious Chinese, who now have board level positions in multi-nationals.
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This is why Altium's plan of moving the HQ from Australia to China failed miserably.
Not only did most of their staff eventually leave, because very few wanted to uproot and live in China.
They thought they could get plenty of cheap top notch programmers in China, and that turned out not to be the case. If you could find good programmers then they didn't stay long regardless of how much you paid them. So they ended up setting up a programming team in the Ukraine instead.
They also thought being "close to the action" in a "growth market" would be an advantage, it wasn't. Double oops.
Add on to that some major US businesses now wouldn't do business with them because they were a Chinese company, triple oops, let's move the HQ to the US instead.
Presumably your prejudice comes from your love hate relationship with Altium? Getting laid off for not willing to bend to the communist overlord surely hurts.
Wrong, I was actually very happy to be let go, I was looking at moving on anyway, and I said so at the time publicly if you care to look it up.
They said later that I was the only one who was happy about the news.
I was just stating facts as someone who was there and involved in it, it's not opinion or "prejudice".
Is it hard to believe that people bought up and living in Sydney, one of the top rated cities in the world for livability, would be unhappy to uproot their lives and move to China? Albeit to Shanghai which is the top rated city in China, but one that still ranks #81 in the world for livability.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Liveability_Ranking
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People are averse to relocation regardless of where to, especially if it's demanded by an employer ("why should my employer dictate where I live?"). As to "livability" in China, I find living here FAR more convenient and that is before considering work. I have lived in a few 1st-tier cities in North America and Europe in my past life, and everything from food, public transportation, infrastructure, to variety of shops are all far better here. As to "democracy" that is not something that shows up at all in terms of everyday liberties, because in my home country people get fined for jaywalking or drying clothes on your own balcony, you can not be alone as an adult in a park without catching the attention of police, etc. I fail to see how everyday life is more "free" in any North American country.
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People are averse to relocation regardless of where to, especially if it's demanded by an employer ("why should my employer dictate where I live?").
Sure, but talking with colleagues who overnight found out they had to move to China, there was of course the bit about having to uproot, but virtually everyone was saying something like "China?, are you effing kidding me?
And it's not because they are prejudiced or something, it's because they had been to China and it's not exactly on the top of their list of places to live for many reasons.
Altium staff wee no stranger to moving. HQ moved from Tasmania -> Sydney -> USA -> Sydney -> Sydney elsewhere -> China (and once China failed, back to the USA)
As to "livability" in China, I find living here FAR more convenient and that is before considering work. I have lived in a few 1st-tier cities in North America and Europe in my past life, and everything from food, public transportation, infrastructure, to variety of shops are all far better here.
Convenient, perhaps.
But there is more to live than convenience. Strange how Australia is famously in the midst of an national epidemic in Chinese locals buying up all the baby formula and vitamins here in Australia and sending them back to their desperate relatives in China. Not because they can't afford them in China, but because they don't trust they can get safe baby formula in China. So much so the cops are busting crime rings:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/01/22/asia-pacific/police-bust-multimillion-dollar-australia-china-baby-formula-crime-ring/#.XOEcy8gzaUk (https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/01/22/asia-pacific/police-bust-multimillion-dollar-australia-china-baby-formula-crime-ring/#.XOEcy8gzaUk)
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-24/shoppers-rush-for-baby-formula-in-sydney-coles/10666496 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-24/shoppers-rush-for-baby-formula-in-sydney-coles/10666496)
I've personally been phoned by Chinese suppliers (who of course know I live in Australia) pleading with me to buy baby formula and vitamins for them, they'll pay anything.
And then there is the medical system. Watch an ADVchina video on how his Chinese wife had their first baby in China and talked about the horrible unhygienic and crowded conditions even though they paid top dollar for a good hospital and good doctor. They talked about it being common place to "bribe" the doctors to take extra care in hygiene for them. They said they won't have their 2nd baby in China because of the medical system there and are going to the US to give birth next time.
When you can't even get a decent hygienic medical system and baby formula in your country, it's no wonder westerers who take this basic stuff for granted might be apprehensive to go and live there.
As to "democracy" that is not something that shows up at all in terms of everyday liberties, because in my home country people get fined for jaywalking or drying clothes on your own balcony, you can not be alone as an adult in a park without catching the attention of police, etc. I fail to see how everyday life is more "free" in any North American country.
I'd recommend you come to Australia, we have three of the most livable cities in the world, and ranked 8th in the world on the democracy index.
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You condemn "Westerners" but forget the contribution of Japan, who were right in there with the best of them, initially in "ripping China off", then later, when just trade was not enough, invading the country.
I am not forgetting anything. The conversation is about China being coming up short when measured by western standards. It is about China, not about Japan, not about Russia, not about Venezuela, not about anything else but China.
And it is about the standard we are using to judge and whether we, the judges, live up to those standards.
And I am just saying that the world would be a better place if we stopped judging and condemning others so much and started improving our own cultures and societies. Our own societies are in dire need of improvement in many ways but we get our sense of worth from putting down other peoples. Like some dirt-poor white farmer who puts down black people because he feels the need to be superior in some way. "I might be dirt poor but at least I'm not black."
Being openly racist is not acceptable any more but it seems bashing China is still socially acceptable even though it comes from the same kind of prejudice and ignorance and is based on stereotypes.
It is ironic that people who bash China are mostly people who have no experience living and working there. They are criticizing their feeling of China just like racist whites will criticize the (racist) impression and stereotypes they have of blacks or Jews or whatever. I have not heard this type of China bashing from people who have lived and worked there. You hear much more sensible discussions about what they like and what they don't like. A much more balanced view.
Of course, it is probable that westerners in China are people who were more open-minded to begin with and more accepting of other cultures because those who think the only way to live is the way they grew up in, those probably mostly stay home, which is the best for them.
Maybe we should do better if we recognized and respected that other countries are different and that does not make them worse.
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And then there is the medical system. Watch an ADVchina video on how his Chinese wife had their first baby in China and talked about the horrible unhygienic and crowded conditions even though they paid top dollar for a good hospital and good doctor. They talked about it being common place to "bribe" the doctors to take extra care in hygiene for them. They said they never have their 2nd baby in China and are going to the US to give birth.
I can walk into a Chinese real hospital and get treated by a doctor the same day. Try doing that in n American hospital. All you get is urgent care with an FNP if you are lucky. I can't say for Australia as I've never been there, but 5 years in US, I'm totally disappointed.
The America medical system is world famous for being screwed up, it is the best example of how to screw it up.
Yes, come to Australia and we have a world class medical system and universal health care.
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People are averse to relocation regardless of where to, especially if it's demanded by an employer ("why should my employer dictate where I live?").
Sure, but talking with colleagues who overnight found out they had to move to China, there was of course the bit about having to uproot, but virtually everyone was saying something like "China?, are you effing kidding me?
And it's not because they are prejudiced or something, it's because they had been to China and it's not exactly on the top of their list of places to live for many reasons.
Altium staff wee no stranger to moving. HQ moved from Tasmania -> Sydney -> USA -> Sydney -> Sydney elsewhere -> China (and once China failed, back to the USA)
As to "livability" in China, I find living here FAR more convenient and that is before considering work. I have lived in a few 1st-tier cities in North America and Europe in my past life, and everything from food, public transportation, infrastructure, to variety of shops are all far better here.
Convenient, perhaps.
But there is more to live than convenience. Strange how Australia is famously in the midst of an national epidemic in Chinese locals buying up all the baby formula and vitamins here in Australia and sending them back to their desperate relatives in China. Not because they can't afford them in China, but because they don't trust they can get safe baby formula in China.
Same here. Over here you can only buy one or two cans of baby formula at the time. It is still so bad that the manufacturer had to build an extra plant to keep up with demand. It has been like this for years already.
Still Chinese and hygiene are a different story. My wife has travelled through many Asian countries so she is used to lesser standards but she found China the worst of all. People spitting everywhere and in the toilets she even noticed several used ladies bandages on the floor in a big luxury department store. Also flying with a Chinese airplane is something she is actively avoiding. Never again. Cleaning the toilets every 15 minutes is not enough.
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Most names are not chosen to illuminate, but to obscure.
Witness all the "Popular Democratic Republic of..." places.
In Spanish we have a saying that translates, more or less, as "tell me what you boast and I'll tell you what you lack".
The very rich do not need to boast about how rich they are. The very charitable do not boast about how charitable they are. When someone is boasting about something you know what they are insecure about.
But in the case of China being communist it is a bit more convoluted. I do not feel like writing a long essay on the topic but let me summarize by saying the authorities have chosen a path of undoing everything Mao and the communist party did while ostensibly maintaining the continuity of the system which is where their authority derives from. Mao is on the money bills, in statues and memorials everywhere. His policies and ideas are nowhere to be seen. It is a policy that is working well and I think it would be a mistake to change that. It has maintained political stability in a country where it has been scarce in the last couple centuries.
It is kind of like America talks and feels about Washington and other founders of the country. Slave owners, racists, but we understand they were a product of their times and circumstances and revere them for the good they did. They are everywhere although a lot of what they did has been overturned. They are respected as the founders of the country.
Similarly Mao is respected as the founder of modern China. He fought a civil war, fought against the Japanese, fought against the Americans and left a strong, united China. (Taiwan pending.) Yes, he did a lot of crazy stuff which cost millions of lives. We don't talk about that, mainly because there is nothing to gain by talking about that.
IMHO, opening the can of "now let's discuss Mao" openly would be disastrous. China (like Spain) has a history of political instability and they are now managing quite well. The western notion that every country should have western-style elections is beyond stupid. We have tried to impose it countless times in many countries where it has failed and yet we insist. It is "democratic fanaticism".
At any rate. China calls itself "communist" for continuity reasons and not because it is communist in any sense of the word. When I hear people talk about "Communist China", "Red China" and similar labels I know I am dealing with someone who knows nothing about China.
I have read my share about Chinese history and I find it a fascinating topic. History in general is a fascinating topic. People would do well to read more history and spout less nonsense.
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And FFS I don't believe a single word from ADVChina. I rather believe shit from SerpentZA or even China Uncensored than his. I don't watch only pro-China YouTubers, I'm also open to neutral (tourists, analysts, business men, etc.) channels on China topic, but I boycott any anti-China channels.
No need for you to believe a word ADVchina has to say, you live there, how about you tell us. Have you had major surgery in a hospital there or had a child there? Can you categorically state ADVchina is wrong (his native Chinese wife actually is the one that refused to have a child in China again) and they don't have a hygiene problem in hospitals?
BTW, ADVchina is quite pro-china, that's the reason for the channel, always extolling the virtues of living in China, but also explaining what he sees wrong or strange from a westerner viewpoint. Seems quite a balanced level of opinion to me.
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Weird that some of the above comments haven't yet triggered any Global Mod Simon's comment as if they were supposed to show an intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries :-//
So now I know that when I was accused of racist remarks it was bullshit. Thanks for this clarification!
p.s.
I am going to take a trip to China for business. Maybe I will report my experience.
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At any rate. China calls itself "communist" for continuity reasons and not because it is communist in any sense of the word. When I hear people talk about "Communist China", "Red China" and similar labels I know I am dealing with someone who knows nothing about China.
Yes, "Communism" is actually a very complex topic.
Would you prefer "Authoritarian China"?
I don't think there is anyone that doubts that China is an "Authoritarian" regime in some form. The term "Authoritarian Capitalism" is popularly thrown around.
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Japan is a humble country, so we worked out very well, aside historical issues.
"Worked out very well"? Well, that's one way of looking at it. I guess. :)
I have met a lot of westerners working or doing business in China and have heard all sorts of stories, some very successful, some not so much. And some weird ones too.
Quite a few years go I met a Spanish man who was doing a business no one could imagine. He was doing business between Japan and somewhere in NE China, I forget exactly where but Qingdao comes to mind.
He told me he had a firm in China of programmers who spoke Japanese so they were doing work to be sold in Japan but being paid Chinese wages. The man explained that this part of China had been occupied and ruled by Japan until WWII and many locals knew Japanese and had passed it on as useful knowledge to their children. He had found that niche and exploited it.
How this Spanish guy found this opportunity I cannot imagine but he had been doing this for quite some time and was doing pretty well.
Some people just have entrepreneurial spirit and imagination and find opportunities.
Of course, a lot of people fail in China just like most small businesses fail in America or Europe. Some fail due to insufficient preparation, others because the market just didn't support them. And when we fail it is only human nature to try to blame others. I failed because I am black, or because I am a woman, or because I am a minority, or because I am a foreigner. Now, I am not saying it may not be a factor but maybe it was a factor you should have taken into account before you started out. I have seen some Chinese-owned companies which try to hide their origin because of the widespread prejudice against buying Chinese.
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Anyway, back to the OP's question, I think this link posted earlier has the best point, ask yourself why do you want to open an office in China?
http://dangerousprototypes.com/blog/2016/01/26/how-to-start-a-chinese-company/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/blog/2016/01/26/how-to-start-a-chinese-company/)
There are three reasons foreigners start a Chinese company: to sell to China’s domestic market, to get legal residency, and to work with small suppliers who can’t accept foreign currency. We are only interested in the latter.
So does the OP have one of those reasons or something else?
I'm personally not sure of the "small suppliers" he's talking about, as there are countless small suppliers willing to accept PayPal from foreigners. But I guess there are countless ones also that will go even cheaper if you pay in local RMB?
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I have met a lot of westerners working or doing business in China and have heard all sorts of stories, some very successful, some not so much. And some weird ones too.
Try the book "Poorly Made In China" for interesting stories about getting stuff made and doing business in China
https://www.amazon.com.au/Poorly-Made-China-Insiders-Production-ebook/dp/B004G5Z2A8 (https://www.amazon.com.au/Poorly-Made-China-Insiders-Production-ebook/dp/B004G5Z2A8)
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Would you prefer "Authoritarian China"?
I don't think there is anyone that doubts that China is an "Authoritarian" regime in some form. The term "Authoritarian Capitalism" is popularly thrown around.
I already said as much:
From around, roughly, 1960 to 1990, Spain was the "China of Europe". Competitive (low) wages and stable (authoritarian) government made it a good place to manufacture and then a good place to sell consumer goods. I understand well the process China is going through because it is very similar to what happened in Spain. It was a process that developed and enrichened Spain like is happening in China now.
It seems you do not like authoritarian governments, which is fine, but that does not mean they are bad for business.
And China is not going to change their form of government to please a few foreigners. They seem to be doing fine. No government in the history of humanity has pulled so many people out of poverty in such a short time. They must be doing something right.
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Would you prefer "Authoritarian China"?
I would. China no longer advertises itself as being communist, but our government literally brags about being authoritative.
Xi calls it concentrating power to do great things.
Nice nationalism marketing ;D
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Xi calls it concentrating power to do great things.
Now I know why my my wife is "concentrating" all power in herself and where she got the idea from :)
Regarding payments to and from China, while it is not my area of expertise, I have never heard of serious problems either way. My wife and her family move money to and from China without much difficulty that I know of.
Maybe things have tightened up lately as they have pretty much everywhere. With the excuse of terrorism governments everywhere are putting more and more controls in place and America is probably the worst.
I have never heard of anyone in China having problems getting paid although it may be that they cannot accept foreign currency directly but must exchange it for CNY. In other words, you can pay them in USD but the bank will keep the USD and give them CNY at the official rate. This could be but I do not know.
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China.exe V 1.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11gc9uBUxCk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11gc9uBUxCk)
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And FFS I don't believe a single word from ADVChina. I rather believe shit from SerpentZA or even China Uncensored than his. I don't watch only pro-China YouTubers, I'm also open to neutral (tourists, analysts, business men, etc.) channels on China topic, but I boycott any anti-China channels.
No need for you to believe a word ADVchina has to say, you live there, how about you tell us. Have you had major surgery in a hospital there or had a child there? Can you categorically state ADVchina is wrong (his native Chinese wife actually is the one that refused to have a child in China again) and they don't have a hygiene problem in hospitals?
BTW, ADVchina is quite pro-china, that's the reason for the channel, always extolling the virtues of living in China, but also explaining what he sees wrong or strange from a westerner viewpoint. Seems quite a balanced level of opinion to me.
ADV China and Serpenta have a strong tendency to extrapolate their experiences as being indicative how all of China and Chinese people are. They seem too close minded to look more broadly. Most of us westerners with extensive experience of China see a very different bunch of plus and minus points about the place. Some people say ADV China and Serpenta are China haters, but that's clearly not true. They chose to live there, which I assume they see as a positive overall experience. They are pretty whiny, though.
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Would you prefer "Authoritarian China"?
I don't think there is anyone that doubts that China is an "Authoritarian" regime in some form. The term "Authoritarian Capitalism" is popularly thrown around.
You say "authoritarian" like it's a bad thing. To me it is completely neutral. Like "monarchy", "republic", "democracy", "Catholic", "Protestant", "Jewish", "Muslim", "Palestinian", ...
If I am going to live somewhere the most important questions for me would be
- Is it a safe place for me and my family (low crime)
- Is it a place where I (we) can have jobs and/or do business and make a good living
- Is it a good place to raise a family
- Is my property safe
- Does it have effective police, judiciary, etc that guarantee my rights
- Does it provide good services, health care, etc.
- Is it a stable place with low risk of revolutions, natural disasters, etc.
My ability to vote is way, way down the list and the weight I would give it is, if any, infinitesimally small. In fact, I generally do not vote where I can because I believe it is a waste of time and a validation of a system that is crooked and corrupt.
"Who would you rather be sodomized by? (A) Big Ben, here on the right or (B) Long Dong Silver, here on the left.
(You have to choose one, if not one will be chosen for you. It doesn't matter who you choose, they will take turns.)
ETA: We have elections to the EU Parliament coming up and if you ask people 99% have no idea about anything, not even how the EU works or what its institutions are, etc. No idea. But, hey, they get to vote.
A TV station was asking people on the street about this and nobody could give a coherent answer. The only ones that made sense to me were a convent of nuns who said "we are not concerned by these things of this world because we believe in Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and God almighty and the Divine Providence will provide for our needs". Amen.
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They are pretty whiny, though.
Now there's a western human right if there ever was any! The right to whine!
I think often authors feel the need to take on a persona with a simplistic point of view which will appeal to their audience and they box themselves into that. I think maybe if you talked to them in person you might sometimes find more depth but their audience wants simplification and a reinforcements of their beliefs or prejudices. Audiences are more drawn to simplistic confirmations of their beliefs than to complicated analysis and that goes for anything and everything. Which explains a lot of history.
These authors are not trying to enhance understanding, they are trying to sell their stuff.
Although I once met a Spanish reporter in Washington DC who was as simplistic as you could find and had absolutely no understanding of America or its people. I suppose her reports were simplistic confirmation of her prejudice and were easily understood and accepted by her readers. Appalling.
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You say "authoritarian" like it's a bad thing. To me it is completely neutral. Like "monarchy", "republic", "democracy", "Catholic", "Protestant", "Jewish", "Muslim", "Palestinian", ...
If I am going to live somewhere the most important questions for me would be
- Is it a safe place for me and my family (low crime)
- Is it a place where I (we) can have jobs and/or do business and make a good living
- Is it a good place to raise a family
- Is my property safe
- Does it have effective police, judiciary, etc that guarantee my rights
- Does it provide good services, health care, etc.
- Is it a stable place with low risk of revolutions, natural disasters, etc.
My ability to vote is way, way down the list and the weight I would give it is, if any, infinitesimally small. In fact, I generally do not vote where I can because I believe it is a waste of time and a validation of a system that is crooked and corrupt.
"Who would you rather be sodomized by? (A) Big Ben, here on the right or (B) Long Dong Silver, here on the left.
(You have to choose one, if not one will be chosen for you. It doesn't matter who you choose, they will take turns.)
ETA: We have elections to the EU Parliament coming up and if you ask people 99% have no idea about anything, not even how the EU works or what its institutions are, etc. No idea. But, hey, they get to vote.
A TV station was asking people on the street about this and nobody could give a coherent answer. The only ones that made sense to me were a convent of nuns who said "we are not concerned by these things of this world because we believe in Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and God almighty and the Divine Providence will provide for our needs". Amen.
The problem with an authoritarian regime is that the conditions you mention aren't guaranteed in the slightest. They can be there one minute and gone the next. Venezuela is a current and poignant example, Turkey might be considered another. They also tend to apply to a very specific group displaying specific prescribed behaviour which isn't always clear in advance. If you are of the wrong ethnic group, religion, political denomination or other arbitrary attribute, your life will be made difficult or stamped out.
Your engaging in a high risk bet when you assume you'll be on the right side of the fence throughout your and your children's lives.
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The problem with an authoritarian regime is that the conditions you mention aren't guaranteed in the slightest. They can be there one minute and gone the next.
You are assuming facts not in evidence. I never said, nor do I think, stability is guaranteed anywhere, authoritarian or not.
Many countries that seemed stable and reasonable, of all colors and stripes, have one day gone crazy and thrown everything out the window.
Venezuela is a good example now. It used to be a rich country and ignorant people voted in a pernicious government and things are getting worse and worse. And foreign powers trying to gain influence are not helping resolve the situation but making it worse.
1930s Germany is another good example of democracy going off the rails. Not to mention all the "Arab Springs" and similar experiments. Democracy is no guarantee of good results (see UK) and authoritarianism is no guarantee of good or bad results.
In many western countries today authoritarian, isolationist leaders are gaining ground. I find it troubling and alarming.
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Xi calls it concentrating power to do great things.
Now I know why my my wife is "concentrating" all power in herself and where she got the idea from :)
Regarding payments to and from China, while it is not my area of expertise, I have never heard of serious problems either way. My wife and her family move money to and from China without much difficulty that I know of.
Maybe things have tightened up lately as they have pretty much everywhere. With the excuse of terrorism governments everywhere are putting more and more controls in place and America is probably the worst.
I have never heard of anyone in China having problems getting paid although it may be that they cannot accept foreign currency directly but must exchange it for CNY. In other words, you can pay them in USD but the bank will keep the USD and give them CNY at the official rate. This could be but I do not know.
afaiu China keeps tight control of their currency by limiting the amount that can be exchanged and how much money can be taken out of the country
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afaiu China keeps tight control of their currency by limiting the amount that can be exchanged and how much money can be taken out of the country
Unless and until someone can provide some well cited and supported information all we have is speculation. Again, I am not an expert on this but I can tell you that (1) I have never, ever heard of someone in China saying they could not receive money from abroad and (2) I know people in China who have bought residences abroad. I do not know how many hoops they had to jump through but they did it. It may be that they can only take so much per year so they buy on installments or maybe there are other ways. I don't know.
As an anecdote I will mention that many years ago I was dating a Chinese girl and we were somehow talking about bank accounts and putting some USD into her account and I asked if her account was denominated in USD or in RMB and she was like confused and it was either "none" or "both" and I said "no, it has to be one or the other, it cannot be both". Well, what do you know, it was both. She had a passbook which she showed me and it had a balance in USD and another balance in CNY. I guess formally for the bank it was two accounts but for the customer it was one account with two different balances. I have never seen that anywhere else.
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In many western countries today authoritarian, isolationist leaders are gaining ground. I find it troubling and alarming.
They do not magically gain ground. They gain ground because people support them. And the people are fed up with what is going on.
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In many western countries today authoritarian, isolationist leaders are gaining ground. I find it troubling and alarming.
They do not magically gain ground. They gain ground because people support them. And the people are fed up with what is going on.
No, people are getting fed propaganda from Russia and China to destabilise the western part of the world.
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afaiu China keeps tight control of their currency by limiting the amount that can be exchanged and how much money can be taken out of the country
I found this out about two years ago as the company I was working for was owed something like £600,000 by a Chinese business partner who kept making nefarious excuses for why he couldn't pay, he was also a director of a fairly large Chinese company who I won't name. Eventually the Chinese business partner bought some shares for $1 Million held by another company, got a seat on the board and bought out all of the remaining directors thus becoming the new owner. All the intelectual property and stock etc was transfered to a new company in his wifes name and during this transition period it was evident that there were limits on how much money could be transfered from China to pay supliers and employees etc.
The old company became insolvent a short time later and everyone was made redundant. A few key staff were kept on by the new company to keep production going and the new company ceased trading a year later. All of the money to finance the business had to come from China because with his track record nobody in the UK or US would invest. That reminds me, there is also a South Korean company that invested $250,000 in a project that failed to deliver and was scrapped, I don't think they will be seeing any return.
I learnt that money from China is tightly controlled and that might have played a small part in the eventual colapse of the business, in reality I think the Chinese owner didn't understand the industry and probably didn't even care.
EDIT: So this guy can't find the £600,000 he owes but he can find $1,000,000, allegedly, to buy some shares and take over the company. It's a family business back in China and the last time I looked his brother owns three American companies and I was left wondering if they had used the same stategy to run the company into the ground and then come up with a "rescue deal" that didn't go anywhere.
Sorry about the rant. Choose your business partners wisely.
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They do not magically gain ground. They gain ground because people support them. And the people are fed up with what is going on.
Oh, I agree. In history everything is a consequence of what happened before. But things are not so simple. People can have unreasonable expectations based on politicians feeding them BS and then get fed up when politicians don't deliver. And then comes another politician who promises even more. There's a lot of that.
Any politician who promises things will return to how they were decades ago is a liar and cannot deliver on that promise. The world has changed and there is no going back. Politicians who promise to return to situations of privilege are lying. America is never again going to have the position it had in the world after WWII. It is not going to happen just like whites are never going to have the position they had with respect to blacks. So, a lot of "fed up" is just whining fed by bullshitters.
Another aspect is the division and polarization of societies which is going on in many countries. One side moves closer to one extreme and the other side feels obligated to move further to the other extreme. No matter who is right (and most of the time neither side is completely right) this is very injurious to society and beneficial to that country's enemies or competitors. And, for this very reason, foreign propaganda tries to feed this division. They do not care for any side, they feed both sides.
This division sets the pendulum in motion and it starts swinging from side to side with ever greater force. This can end in tragedy.
In Spain we had some decades of relatively moderate politics. The real estate and economic bubble meant great prosperity which politicians irresponsibly used to waste millions and steal more millions. Then came the crash and suddenly everybody was fed up with democracy and classic politics and so many voted extreme leftist revolutionaries who had no experience or any other aim than to destroy the system. This is understandable in that people were fed up. Now, after years of mismanagement and idiocy by the extreme left, the extreme right, which was unknown in the last decades, has again won representation.
It does not matter who you think is right. This situation, if it continues down this path, will lead to something like Venezuela. A house divided ...
The situation in Spain is deteriorating in many ways and, like in Venezuela, politicians on both sides are not addressing the real problems but feeding us rhetorical BS and ideology. Every day all they talk about is how awfully bad the other side is. It will come as no surprise to me if and when things explode and the winner says "enough!" and the other side is banished.
China and Russia and whoever else do not care one way or another, they just feed us reasons to argue, and they don't even have to be lies, just sow division. Isn't that what democracy is about? But too much democracy can be not so good for us. We do not want to be arguing all day about everything. But our competitors can inject reasons to argue and inflame our democracies so we en up with "democracitis".
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This situation, if it continues down this path, will lead to something like Venezuela.
The optimist said "of things continue to get worse we will end up eating shit".
And the pessimist asked "do you think there will be enough shit to go around?".
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So that's about shitty Chinese people, not the government.
And there is "shitty" people like that everywhere. Here's the thing though: if your relative does not pay you back they are truly shitty but if someone in a business deal doesn't pay you, that's business, here, there and everywhere. I think most people would not consider morality enters into it. So "shitty" is relative.
The reason people pay their debts is they hope to keep a good credit score so they can have future credit. If people could get away with not paying their debts they would do it.
There's a well-known real estate tycoon from New York who is well known for stiffing suppliers and generally not paying debts and yet he is extremely popular in some circles.
Insurance companies make money by charging as much as they can in premiums and by paying as little as they can get away with in claims. For them it is just business. A friend of mine had heart surgery a couple years ago and the insurance was denying a big part of the cost and he was really upset over having to fight the insurance company over this and he was telling me they were trying to give him a heart attack to see if he'd die and leave them alone.
Banks and other big corps will not pay something if they can legally get away with doing it. Morality has nothing to do with it. Don't take it personally. It's only business.
And all the private people who decry big business for being so immoral and greedy, if put in a similar position will do exactly the same. People who got a mortgage and the balance was under water when the house was repossessed if the loan was no-recourse do you think they would pay the balance? Of course not.
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Would you prefer "Authoritarian China"?
I don't think there is anyone that doubts that China is an "Authoritarian" regime in some form. The term "Authoritarian Capitalism" is popularly thrown around.
You say "authoritarian" like it's a bad thing.
When the government says you can't watch my videos, or any videos on Youtube, then yep, that's a bad thing, a really bad thing.
When the government says you can't form your own political party to compete against them for the vote, then yep, that's a bad thing, a really bad thing.
If I am going to live somewhere the most important questions for me would be
- Is it a safe place for me and my family (low crime)
- Is it a place where I (we) can have jobs and/or do business and make a good living
- Is it a good place to raise a family
- Is my property safe
- Does it have effective police, judiciary, etc that guarantee my rights
- Does it provide good services, health care, etc.
- Is it a stable place with low risk of revolutions, natural disasters, etc.
We have all that, plus the freedoms you don't.
My ability to vote is way, way down the list and the weight I would give it is, if any, infinitesimally small. In fact, I generally do not vote where I can because I believe it is a waste of time and a validation of a system that is crooked and corrupt.
You've been beaten down by the system, that makes me sad.
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So this guy can't find the £600,000 he owes but he can find $1,000,000, allegedly, to buy some shares and take over the company. It's a family business back in China and the last time I looked his brother owns three American companies and I was left wondering if they had used the same stategy to run the company into the ground and then come up with a "rescue deal" that didn't go anywhere.
So that's about shitty Chinese people, not the government.
For this exact reason in the other thread I said never give your CC to a Chinese merchant.
There is a reason why escrow is a must in China.
That's why PayPal and AliPay exist, and I don't think I've found a supplier yet that doesn't accept them.
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When the government says you can't watch my videos, or any videos on Youtube, then yep, that's a bad thing, a really bad thing.
Yes well YT's terms of usage didn't meet the Chinese governments requirements and recent events like the killings in Christchurch has us wondering about YT usage too.
Mark Zuckerberg cut the recent international Paris meeting off at the pass with some mediocre changes to how YT will now manage online content and streaming and they all rolled over and accepted it. ::)
Instead of verifying a user carefully so they can promptly be rounded up when they do acts that are not publicly acceptable but the international community missed their chance on that one.
If Google business can do it, why can't YT do it ? :-//
WRT YT not being able to be watched by the Chinese, :bullshit: they well know what a proxy server is.
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When the government says you can't watch my videos, or any videos on Youtube, then yep, that's a bad thing, a really bad thing.
Yes well YT's terms of usage didn't meet the Chinese governments requirements and recent events like the killings in Christchurch has us wondering about YT usage too.
Wow, are you trying to justify a country blocking Youtube?
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When the government says you can't watch my videos, or any videos on Youtube, then yep, that's a bad thing, a really bad thing.
Well, I can understand how you would feel that way. OTOH, they have Youku Tudou, Douyin and others. And when I am in China I can easily get around the Great Firewall so it's not like they make it very difficult. But I understand what you mean and so China is definitely not for you. That does not mean it is for nobody. Millions of Chinese live happy lives in China and do not miss Youtube.
When the government says you can't form your own political party to compete against them for the vote, then yep, that's a bad thing, a really bad thing.
Again, a matter of personal preference which is not universal in the least.
We have all that, plus the freedoms you don't.
I have never been to Australia and know little or nothing about it. I know people speak funny and wildlife is extremely dangerous and trying to kill you. I believe there are spiders that will eat a Volkswagen. That's what I've heard so I cannot speak for Australia but I have my impressions of the places where I have lived and know well.
- Is it a safe place for me and my family (low crime)
China is very definitely safer in every respect than America.
Safer from common crime and safer from police abuse and brutality.
Fifty years ago, under Franco, Spain was a hundred times safer than it is today under this whorehouse democracy.
- Is it a place where I (we) can have jobs and/or do business and make a good living
This is very dependent on personal circumstances so extremely difficult to compare.
- Is it a good place to raise a family
I believe China is a better place to raise children with better values education.
America has too much violence and drugs in schools.
- Is my property safe
In America the police can steal your property with impunity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States). It is a problem which has gotten out of hand and I hope the tide is turning. Highway robbery. See this video
https://youtu.be/Q4TaJuRTJxg?t=1
It is shocking. That anybody thinks this can be right is mind boggling.
In Spain property rights have very little protection. The situation is very bad and due to a combination of factors which include a non-functional judiciary and political squabbling which detracts from addressing these problems. It is very bad.
- Does it have effective police, judiciary, etc that guarantee my rights
Police in America is terrible and abusive. I feel much safer when dealing with Chinese police who are much more considerate and polite. American police are abusive goons. Your chances of being abused or even shot by American police are astronomically higher than in China. And twice as bad if you are black. America has a per-capita prison population which is like five times higher than China's. America is not the land of the free. Much to the contrary, it is the land of prisoners.
The judiciary in America is pretty good compared to Spain where it is crap and absolutely worthless. I have no experience or opinion about the judiciary in China although I would think they would not be comparable to western systems. I know they are doing much to change and modernize it. I really have no knowledge of the judiciary in China and I am an admirer in general of the American judiciary system.
- Does it provide good services, health care, etc.
This is very wide. Health care in America is a mess. Health care in China is more basic but much more available. I have needed health care in China and it was extremely affordable and reasonable quality although lower than in western countries. Other services like schools, etc I think are OK in China.
The notion that western style democracy gives the people what they want is, IMHO, totally bogus. Americans do not want the health care system they have nor do they want civil asset forfeiture laws but the system is so corrupt that it does not matter who you vote for the powerful lobbies get their way. I forget who said it: America has the best Congress money can buy.
IMHO, the "little people" who believe their vote has any influence in what the government does are deluding themselves. It does not matter who you vote for or who is elected. Big money will be telling politicians what they will do.
And that is why voter turnout is so low. People realize the system is rigged and is a way of fooling most of the people most of the time.
Don't get me wrong, all systems can be good or medium or bad depending on how they are implemented and on the morality of its users. They are just tools they are not ends in themselves.
Australians like their system. Great! But let the Chinese organize themselves as they see fit. It would be very arrogant of us to impose our system and values on another culture.
Again, China has its own set of problems which are very different from other countries. They are doing a pretty good job of developing the country and lifting millions out of poverty.
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Wow, are you trying to justify a country blocking Youtube?
Western countries justify things much worse than blocking Youtube. I am more ready to criticize my side for worse things than the other side for lighter things.
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Men, said the Devil,
are good to their brothers:
they don't want to mend
their own ways, but each other's.
Piet Hein (https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Piet_Hein) (December 16, 1905 - April 18, 1996)
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When the government says you can't watch my videos, or any videos on Youtube, then yep, that's a bad thing, a really bad thing.
Yes well YT's terms of usage didn't meet the Chinese governments requirements and recent events like the killings in Christchurch has us wondering about YT usage too.
Wow, are you trying to justify a country blocking Youtube?
If the freedom of speech proponents insist YT continuance with no/insufficient tools to block online streaming of massacres and the like, yes ban it !
Dave, it may be the center of your world however it's not for everyone.
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One man's inalienable right is another man's thing which is pernicious and must be forbidden. Talk to any pro-gun person in America and you will see what I mean. To them any country that does not allow the possession and carrying of guns is a dictatorship.
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If the freedom of speech proponents insist YT continuance with no/insufficient tools to block online streaming of massacres and the like, yes ban it !
Wow, you have absolutely no idea how streaming technology works. You CAN'T have tools that detect and block that sort of stuff in real time, it's NOT POSSIBLE, or NOT PRACTICAL. You either enable live streaming or you don't.
BTW, it wasn't streamed on Youtube, it was on Facebook.
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If the freedom of speech proponents insist YT continuance with no/insufficient tools to block online streaming of massacres and the like, yes ban it !
Dave, it may be the center of your world however it's not for everyone.
Inappropriate streams can be and are banned. Expecting the system to be water tight and 100% effective only means a draconic limiting of the liberties others enjoy for little to no gain. If there's infrastructure or a form of freedom, it's going to be abused by some idiot. No amount of enforcement or theatre will change that.
It seems silly this is now made an issue. We've seen the planes hit the twin towers countless times. Those idiots were after the exact same exposure. Let's not let terrorists harm our liberties any further until there are none left to harm.
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Anyway, this thread is going to get out of hand, and I'm as guilty as anyone.
It either comes back on-topic or it gets locked.
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If the freedom of speech proponents insist YT continuance with no/insufficient tools to block online streaming of massacres and the like, yes ban it !
Wow, you have absolutely no idea how streaming technology works. You CAN'T have tools that detect and block that sort of stuff in real time, it's NOT POSSIBLE, or NOT PRACTICAL. You either enable live streaming or you don't.
Sure but you've had yours pulled some some minor indiscretion and you've always had it as of right.
Have a think about user verification allowing the right to live stream and if there's nuthing wrong with your content then long may it continue.
OTOH aholes that have some agenda and want to stream unsavory content could at least be rapidly identified with a user verification process.
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Sure but you've had yours pulled some some minor indiscretion and you've always had it as of right.
Have a think about user verification allowing the right to live stream and if there's nuthing wrong with your content then long may it continue.
OTOH aholes that have some agenda and want to stream unsavory content could at least be rapidly identified with a user verification process.
How would that stop verified users from doing the exact same thing? Besides, anything is for sale online including followers and likes.
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THREAD LOCKED