Opinions about "The Geek Group" on YouTube

[smackaay]

The thing I always find amusing about discussions of this nature, both on forums and YouTube comments, is it seems people are always being forced into watching videos they don't enjoy.

Even on my tiny YouTube channel I get regular comments about my videos being boring, so don't farking watch them.

The problem with that is that when you make videos and post them for public consumption, they will be critiqued by the public. If people want only useful comments or just nice comments, they can leave their videos private and show their mom, dad and friends. Posting a video to youtube comes with the understanding that the person who posted it wants the video to be seen by the public and as everyone knows, the result can be good or bad.

[Stonent]

I've seen one of their videos so far where they interface a CDV 700 geiger counter into an Arduino using interrupts which was actually the first video I ever saw with them being used on an Arduino. (Yes I knew they existed, but I had never seen the usage shown)

[EEVblog]

They have the guy who supposedly designed the thing and that cool schematic view/animations, he explains the circuit, but that part could have been separate video.

I really like the schematic animation driver. I do wonder how they do that?
I also like their video quality and some camera angles, really quite well done.

[pickle9000]

Steven Bellettini (I hope I got that right) is crazy good at animations. I'm sure he is the one to blame for all the animation stuff. He likes flash so I'm guessing that it's all flash.

He's kinda wierd

[dcel]

Steven Bellettini (I hope I got that right) is crazy good at animations. I'm sure he is the one to blame for all the animation stuff. He likes flash so I'm guessing that it's all flash.

He's kinda weird.

Aren't we all?

[vk3yedotcom]

I know this a bit of an old thread but I just got acquainted with GeekGroup videos. This Chris Boden guy seems somewhat knowledgeable about stuff but is also lazy and uninformed. I have seen him:

• Hammer the tip of a screwdriver with a hammer in between batteries
• Use a hammer on the head of another hammer!

 

In fact, using tools the wrong way is how new tools get invented

That kind of logic is fine if there is truly no other way to remove something. However in those examples he was trying to remove batteries from a UPS. He completely ignored the screws on the case and grunted and groaned for five minutes, potentially damaging his tools in the process. He was more like an ape trying to open a puzzle box with brute force than a man with skill gently coaxing it open.

I appreciate both sides. 

There is a certain beauty or elegance in finding the screws, using the right tool to open them and gaining access without damaging a thing.  Just a few twists in the right places and you're in - without the hammering, bashing and carry-on.   This is the professional approach and one to be followed by those who repair other peoples stuff or do electronics for money.

However there is also the lazy / less serious approach.  This is electronics how (I suspect) as often done in back sheds around the country though not as taught.

Eg pulling stuff apart on the floor not the bench (stuff can't fall any further)
Violating the 'hammers must not mix with screwdrivers' rule
Holding stuff down with your feet not in a vice (as you proceed to yank something out)
Using screwdrivers as levers to prise open recalcitrant plastic cases
Using teeth for things they ought not be used for
etc

I suspect that some think that there's all these vulnurable impressionable beginners out there and videos should always show the 'right' way all the time in case they get the wrong idea. 

Which is fair enough when dealing with beginners, mains power, and potentially dangerous things like power tools (that recent 'Make' video on that Halloween trick that hacked the mains power connections of an obsolete TV was plain dumb IMHO).

But when we're dealing with your own things, your own time, low voltages and salvaged consumer stuff that you don't care much if you break then I think we can afford to be a bit more like 'apes' and let go of the sophisticated thought for a while. Especially where electronics is a leisure activity that gives release from more serious stuff (like work).

I don't think there's harm in a few videos showing this less documented side of hobby electronics, provided the approach is explained.

[Halfdead]

I'm really glad Dave doesn't do videos like this
all they do is assemble the kit.
They have their place, but for most people it's neither educational nor funny. They have the guy who supposedly designed the thing and that cool schematic view/animations, he explains the circuit, but that part could have been separate video. I don't want to watch this guy trying figure how to bend leads on components or solder or which component is what. But I know there might be people who want to watch that. Every other part of their videos seems good quality except Chris Boden.

The video is supposed to teach people how to put the kit together.

[Dave]

I'm really glad Dave doesn't do videos like this
all they do is assemble the kit.

Give the guys some credit. It takes real determination to find a guy that can suck THAT bad at soldering. Not many people have what it takes to suck that bad.

[c4757p]

I'm a bit frightened by the amount of time he took explaining fitting a 100mil lead spacing capacitor into 200mil holes.

...holy mother of god that is some bad soldering. I mean, I see that he's more or less new to this, but damn, that kinda defeats the purpose of an instructional video, doesn't it?

Herp derp how do I cut leads without launching them?

"Plus sign 23 08" - I imagine that would be "Fairchild logo" 230B (as in 1N5230B) I have to give them dumbass credit for noticing the part number was wrong, but not investigating that at all before assembling...

Not sure if I can keep going...

...goddammit, it's a Schottky diode! A Shockley diode is something different!

Still trying to figure out the point of wasting all that "FLUX!!!"... the PCBs are brand new and the solder contains flux...

Sorry, I'm having fun nitpicking

(OK, the soldering got better at the end. )

[Bored@Work]

Ah, the goons are out again. Tell me, do you have some kind of telephone chain or telephone tree to alert each other when someone says something critical about the Geek group business?

By the way, when you want to teach someone soldering, it is a rather good idea to be able to solder. That guy in the video is smearing solder all over the pins, "soldering" like he is using a glue gun and just doesn't get it right. Tell me, is that guy in the video your fearless leader?

[stackel]

Gah, how do I internet? Sorry for the deletion folks.

I'm really glad Dave doesn't do videos like this
all they do is assemble the kit.
They have their place, but for most people it's neither educational nor funny. They have the guy who supposedly designed the thing and that cool schematic view/animations, he explains the circuit, but that part could have been separate video. I don't want to watch this guy trying figure how to bend leads on components or solder or which component is what. But I know there might be people who want to watch that. Every other part of their videos seems good quality except Chris Boden.

Member of the GG video team here. The "mean director" Chris mentioned a few pages back, actually.

You are aware that the particular video you link was for a purely instructional series, yes? I assume if you got to the third one, you watched the first where that was made clear. If not, please forgive the assumption. It was made with those who may have never touched anything of the sort before in mind. The point of the series was to show step by (possibly painful, for the more experienced such as yourself) step of how to assemble.

You may not like it, but I think you're overstepping yourself by deciding that it has no value for "most people". Is the presentation perfect? Probably not, but I think your bias against Chris and how he chooses to present is clouding your judgement of the video's value (and having worked with him for 2.5 years now, and knowing/experiencing what he has to do to be educational, accurate, and engaging, I invite you to teach him how it's done "properly". It'll amuse me.).

We're not perfect, and we often struggle to make things accessible and interesting while still keeping with how we do things. We don't cut down content or dumb down the lingo for those with short attention spans. That's not the point, for us. We do the we can best to show the ENTIRE process in most things, even the soul-crushingly boring parts. Because science doesn't always happen in 30 minutes with an awesome soundtrack, in spite of what channels like Discovery presents. And the fact that Chris can even be in a good mood by the end of our average length (easily 60+ minutes) shoots, let alone still engage the audience, is no small feat.

EDIT--If anyone has an interest in our production process, I'd be happy to answer.

[Dave]

You are aware that the particular video you link was for a purely instructional series, yes? I assume if you got to the third one, you watched the first where that was made clear. If not, please forgive the assumption. It was made with those who may have never touched anything of the sort before in mind. Something we did in lieu of printed instructions. The point of the series was to show step by (possibly painful, for the more experienced such as yourself) step of how to assemble a kit that we are producing for fundraising.

Teaching bad practice is worse than not teaching anything at all. I can already see beginners giving up on soldering because it's "too hard" and "nothing comes out right", because they try to put your terrible soldering practices to use.

You are deluding yourself if you think that the video you made was good.

[stackel]

You are aware that the particular video you link was for a purely instructional series, yes? I assume if you got to the third one, you watched the first where that was made clear. If not, please forgive the assumption. It was made with those who may have never touched anything of the sort before in mind. Something we did in lieu of printed instructions. The point of the series was to show step by (possibly painful, for the more experienced such as yourself) step of how to assemble a kit that we are producing for fundraising.

Teaching bad practice is worse than not teaching anything at all. I can already see beginners giving up on soldering because it's "too hard" and "nothing comes out right", because they try to put your terrible soldering practices to use.

You are deluding yourself if you think that the video you made was good.

The point wasn't to teach perfect soldering technique, and nowhere in this video series--there are three of them there so far and you're all only referencing the latest one where they don't cover the fact that that video was maybe Chris's second time soldering--does Chris claim to be good at it. It was to show how to build our kits for the polytonal musical tesla coil. Chris is not in this video as "the expert" on them. That honor, in fact, belongs to Paul Kidwell, who appears with him, and who developed the boards. Chris's entire role in the video, and in many of our videos in fact, is to be the student. He asks the questions, and sometimes does the stupid stuff. His function in this video was well served. It showed that even someone who knows nothing about the process of building these kits CAN actually do it without prior knowledge (even if their first tries may be "bad" in result).

Please watch the first video, if you have not, and see that Chris in fact admits on camera that he has never really soldered before. http://youtu.be/7q2mRUKPGZU

If you would like a video on proper soldering technique, we'd be glad to do it. What suggestions do you have for the important aspects we should cover (other than having a seasoned veteran teach it...that's sort of a given )?

[c4757p]

I kind of agree. I see the point of him learning as he goes just like the viewer. Not my cup of tea, but...

Since it is for beginners, though, a bit more attention to detail would be lovely. "Shockley diode"? Not bothering to double check part numbers thought wrong? Come on...

[stackel]

I kind of agree. I see the point of him learning as he goes just like the viewer. Not my cup of tea, but...

Since it is for beginners, though, a bit more attention to detail would be lovely. "Shockley diode"? Not bothering to double check part numbers thought wrong? Come on...

You are right on us needing to be more attentive to certain things if we're going to talk about them. It's something we've been working in the time since that video was shot (it was released months after shooting for a multitude of reasons that I won't bore you with here). We're working on our pre-production planning a lot more than we used partially due to things like that. It's an interesting learning curve, working here.

[Dave]

The point wasn't to teach perfect soldering technique, and nowhere in this video series--there are three of them there so far and you're all only referencing the latest one where they don't cover the fact that that video was maybe Chris's second time soldering--does Chris claim to be good at it. It was to show how to build our kits for the polytonal musical tesla coil. Chris is not in this video as "the expert" on them. That honor, in fact, belongs to Paul Kidwell, who appears with him, and who developed the boards. Chris's entire role in the video, and in many of our videos in fact, is to be the student. He asks the questions, and sometimes does the stupid stuff. His function in this video was well served. It showed that even someone who knows nothing about the process of building these kits CAN actually do it without prior knowledge (even if their first tries may be "bad" in result).

Please watch the first video, if you have not, and see that Chris in fact admits on camera that he has never really soldered before. http://youtu.be/7q2mRUKPGZU

If you would like a video on proper soldering technique, we'd be glad to do it. What suggestions do you have for the important aspects we should cover (other than having a seasoned veteran teach it...that's sort of a given )?

I have to admit I haven't watched the two previous videos.

As for the proper soldering tutorial, I like your idea and these are the important aspects I think you should cover:
-Explaining what soldering actually is (from a metallurgical point of view)
-Types of solder (for electronics use, of course)
-Flux (how and why we use it)
-Selecting the right iron and tip, temperature setting
-Brief explanation of the proper soldering technique and demonstration with annotations (if you use pauses in a shot, make sure to put a clearly visible pause symbol somewhere in the corner, not to give the impression of a ridiculously long heating time; perhaps use a timer there, so people see how many seconds it takes)
-Demonstration of soldering at actual speed
-Desoldering with pump and wick
-Explain the correct order in which the components should be soldered (so people don't start with soldering relays and then bitch when they have to mount small resistors next to them)

That should roughly cover it, though I probably forgot plenty of important stuff. Don't be afraid to make it extensive, if people will benefit from it.

[c4757p]

-Explain the correct order in which the components should be soldered (so people don't start with soldering relays and then bitch when they have to mount small resistors next to them)

I'm all for letting them figure this out for themselves

[vk6zgo]

I know this a bit of an old thread but I just got acquainted with GeekGroup videos. This Chris Boden guy seems somewhat knowledgeable about stuff but is also lazy and uninformed. I have seen him:

• Hammer the tip of a screwdriver with a hammer in between batteries
• Use a hammer on the head of another hammer!

 

It's his UPS/Hammar/Screwdriver  if he wants to smash things with a hammer why does it matter? 

Sometime it's faster to use the wrong tool, and infact - in those cases it's common to have a multiple tools so you can dedicate one for being used the wrong way. That way you can use it any way you need and also prevent anything important being ruined.

Side cutters are a good example. You have a really good pair and a cheap pair which you use when you're worried the expensive pair might get damaged because your cutting something a bit oversized.

In fact, using tools the wrong way is how new tools get invented

That kind of logic is fine if there is truly no other way to remove something. However in those examples he was trying to remove batteries from a UPS. He completely ignored the screws on the case and grunted and groaned for five minutes, potentially damaging his tools in the process. He was more like an ape trying to open a puzzle box with brute force than a man with skill gently coaxing it open.

Sure, who am I to say what kind of tools he uses? But I watched him and was screaming "Remove the screws!". I've watched other videos of his and most of them are OK. Perhaps I don't like him because he's so painfully unfunny, I don't know.

When I watched the video,I expected it to be crap,but considering he was dismantling something for parts,not repair,I couldn't see any great sins.

The "hammer" he hit with a hammer was actually the "hammer" end of a prybar.

The "screws on the case" were only mounting the handles,so he had to remove them in order to get at the rivets which really hold the thing together!

He put an "edit" in there which makes it confusing,but most people are aware that commercially made cases like that one are riveted together.
Screws are neither cost effective or sufficiently rigid.

I think he was trying to salvage the case originally,which is why he was persevering with attempting to prise the (swollen & distorted) batteries out .
After all,that was how they were supposed to come out.

Making noises?----You must not have had a lot to do with Techs out in the real world!
Most of my colleagues verbalise freely when working on equipment,as do I.

[Halfdead]

May I ask:
1) what rules you need to play by?

Entirely too many. Please keep in mind that it's not just me and a camera anymore, there's an entire production team involved. The days of shooting a video in the afternoon, editing in the evening, and posting overnight are long since gone from the main channel (though I do still do the blogs myself). I have to appease the Board, the video team (I have a director, and she is mean as hell and throws things at me, she also denies me food, help me, please), sponsors, etc. The videos on the main channel are in a state of growing pains right now as we bring our professionalism up significantly. You're about to see a lot of very different content from what you're used to on here. Some of it will take us back to our early days, some of it will be vastly superior to what we've done so far.

2) who is imposing those rules?

Me (I do get a vote around here), the Director, the staff, members, viewers, sponsors, foundations, the Development team, the PR team, the legal team and on occasion the dog.


3) why do you think you need to play by them?

Because I want to make a difference. I want to leave a legacy. I want to change the world. I'm not just doing YouTube videos for fun, this is a small (albeit very important) part of a much larger overarching enterprise. We operate the largest Makerspace in the world (and the oldest, open since 1994). I'm not just an idiot with a camera anymore, I'm an idiot at the tail of a multimillion dollar non-profit. This is why I don't get to have a blue mohawk, or swear, or carry a gun, or set dumpsters on fire, etc. I have to be professional. Some days I even wear a tie.


On the Comments thing, well, our commentators are likely very different from yours. We pass about 80% of them. The 20% or so we don't approve are ones that are derogatory (we have a lot of females around here, and some dudes are either very mean, or very creepy), or just plain stupid. Comments that are not positive or productive, we delete. I have no problems with people hating us or having a differing opinion, but that doesn't mean that they get to thrash on me on my dime. If they want to hate us, they can make their own videos on their own channel. It's a free internet. The ones that get the most cranky are the ones that rage on us for not teaching jesus, the ones that get pissed when we won't give them Moose or Liz's email/phone numbers/bra size, and the ones who want to tell us that our cameras/lighting/audio sucks. I assure you, we know it sucks, and we're working to do better. They want to bitch about it, but they don't want to donate to help get a new camera, or better lights, etc, they just want to bitch. Decisions are made by those that show up; I have little use for trools, and for those that only want to piss and moan. We're here to work, to make a substantial difference in the world. I support anyone who wants to help inspire people (It's why I like Dave ), but I have no use for whiners. That's why we moderate comments. If it costs me viewers, well if they're that shallow as to be offended, and they can't find one of the 20 other ways to interact and be heard by myself and the staff, then they aren't people I want as viewers anyways.

I understand how the main channel might need to be filtered. But what about your personal channel, why does everything need to be reviewed before being submitted?

[ChrisBoden]

Because hidden by the anonymity of the digital domain there are a nontrivial number of rancorous assholes who feel it is better to fling poo than it is to stand up and do something. The majority of our worst comments all have the same thing in common, they come from people who have never posted an original video.

It's easy to bitch, it's easy to sit back and point out the mistakes, the bad lighting, the microphone that didn't work right, the shoot that went to hell, etc ad astra. We do it too. We watch our videos and see what we did wrong, make notes, learn, and do better.

Standing up on that stage in front of the world, investing (and this is no exaggeration) Millions of dollars and a life's work into an idea, that's hard.

Some people bitch because we're not perfect, yet they can't do better themselves (we have a standing invitation to anyone who wants to show up and make a video).

Some people bitch because they're jealous (we have what many people would consider the best job in the Geek world).

Some people bitch because of their beliefs (we get a lot of hate from religious fundamentalists).

Some people bitch because they had a shot here and failed (our most fervent online haters are disgruntled former members who were kicked out for various reasons).

Some people bitch just for sport (there's a few here).

Let 'em bitch. It doesn't make a dent in our operation. And it's their right to be a twat. However, I have no reason whatsoever to give them a microphone to bitch from. If they want to leave vicious comments on the internet, that's fine, but I don't have to let them spread their hate on my comments thread. I have nothing, at all, to gain from it, and it doesn't make anyone's world a better place.

Fuck em. Haters gon' hate. I won't hide, and anyone who wants to come and say things to my face is welcome. My address is posted below.

Chris Boden
President, Founder
The Geek Group
902 Leonard NW.
Grand Rapids, MI
49504

[senso]

Milions of dollars?
Come on, I know from crappy shows that you (americans) like to exacerbate every price, like a new battery for a Bettle, thats gonna cost you 3000$ 

Just about the soldering, you either teach how to do it right, or you better be quiet..

[ChrisBoden]

Several million actually. Our IRS Form 990's are public record, as are our annual report. You can find them if you're slightly motivated.

Our IRC team alone has donated over $50,000 this year, so far. This month alone we'll be spending over $26,000 in electrical upgrades for the CNC shop, another $20,000 in Video Production equipment upgrades, and $15,000 in bills (electricity, mortgage, insurance, etc). I don't get to (or need to) exaggerate numbers, the world is watching and loves to point out any slight discrepancy I may make.

And the last thing we're going to do, is shut up.

[Bored@Work]

Why not invest some of that money in learning to solder?

[ChrisBoden]

I'll gladly pay you twenty bucks to come teach me on camera.

[c4757p]

I want to see that.