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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Oppenheimer Movie Review
« on: July 23, 2023, 02:55:52 pm »
A little bit OT, but I'm sure this movie is potentially interesting to many here.
Herewith is my review just posted on Twitter:

The Oppenheimer REVIEW you maybe didn't expect:
(May have plot spoilers, kinda?)

I was SO looking forward to this, being a big nuclear history buff. And, well, I've got to say I’m disappointed and kinda annoyed.
Not in the visuals, they were great.
Not in the performances, they were great.
Not in the lack of ANY special effects, that was great (everything was done in camera, wow!).
But I’m disappointed because the trailer makes you expect something totally different. Or at least it did for me. I had to rewatch the trailer just now to confirm I wasn’t imagining that.

The trailer made me think the film was about, or at least would have a lot about the design and building of the bomb, building, development of and the work at Los Alamos and other locations, the effort put in the refinement, the physics etc etc. But it’s not there, there is almost nothing. You’ve sadly seen most of that stuff in the trailer already. You get the occasional very brief glimpse of the labs and trinity tower, and the gadget. but I was disappointed.

Examples: The pile test under the stadium for example gets maybe a minute, he walks in, geiger counters tick and that’s it.
Zero on the refinement of the fissile materials and the huge effort that went into that. They just represent it all as literally marbles in a glass jar.
Hardly anything on the Trinity tower, the setup, life at Los Alamos etc.
You get a couple of test shots on the explosive charges and that’s it.
There is almost nothing on the physics involved.
Hardly anything on the bombs dropped, but I didn’t expect that.

Basically nothing for technical minded people to get excited over, and certainly nothing for those like me with an interest in the history of nuclear development.

Yeah, I know, it’s in the name, Oppenheimer. This is almost entirely a character movie about Oppenheimer and how he got shafted after the war, all the commie stuff etc. But that’s not just after Trinty and all the early development, it’s woven throughout the entire film, all 3 hours of it.
Take a shot every time you hear the word communist and you’ll have to be removed from the theatre by ambulance.
With hindsight, it’s obvious if you look at the IMDB main character list. It’s all politicians etc and not scientists.
Basically the plot of the entire movie is based around a post-war investigation into Oppenheimer, and the movie is basically just flash-backs so to speak to tell the rest of the story.
The overall plot is basically all about Openheimer and Lewis Strauss (Robert Downey Jr’s character).
If you want any focus on science and engineering characters this is NOT the movie for you. There is no real nitty gritty stuff, no people experimenting, testing, building etc.

And I mentioned annoying. Holy crap, almost the entire film has constant background music that drowns out the dialog. Dialog that should be important and focussed gets downed up.
And not just light background music, BLOODY LOUD, pulsating annoying crap.
Literally floor shaking stuff, I didn’t know my local cinema could go that low in frequency. And I’m, not talking the explosions, I’m talking about important dialog!
You just want to shout at the screen to shut the F up! And for the entire 3 hours.
It does go dead silent in a few places, but not where it needs to, and not even close to enough.
It’s like Nolan is trying to put you inside Oppenheimers head, and he’s got constant migraine headaches, so you have to experience that too.

And that investigation throughout the entire film gets annoying and confusing, cutting back and forth in time with various players, again, and again, and again, and again. Your head spins and you lose track of what timeline you are in.
This is NOT a structured historical flow film that I expected (maybe just hoping?) from the trailer.

Don't get me wrong, there are many great scenes in the film that I really enjoyed. And it treats the consequences of nuclear weapons and nucealr war very well. And I expected it to. A scene with Oppenheimer and Truman in the oval office is great.

The cinema was packed, and when I came out I heard many say the likes of “that was dumb”, “that’s not what I expected”, “I didn’t get it”, “weird” etc.

As I said, the performances are great, Cillian Murphy nails Oppenheimer, Matt Damon works as Groves. Robert Downey Jr is almost unrecognisable and great. But the scientists, well, you just don’t see much of them, and they are ultimately fairly inconsequential to the plot apart from giving testimony at the commie investigation.

The final end scene actually was really great, and tied the whole character and persecution of Oppenheimer plot nicely, and summed up nuclear war very poetically. Full marks for that, it was one of the highlights for me.

If you are after an entire character driven film maybe you’ll gush over this, and I wouldn’t argue.
But if you came for the science and engineering you’ll be bitterly disappointed.
I’m be struggling to even give it a passing grade of 5/10 here. What’s there is accurate and looks and feels great, but there is just so little of it.

Sorry, I’m, not going to gush over this one like 98% of critics and viewers are.
I can’t help but think it was a wasted opportunity to at least have SOME decent focus on the science and engineering of the whole thing.
They built the whole town and trinity tower etc and you hardly see any of it.
They had some of the major scientists involved and they don't give them the time or focus needed.
And with 3 hours run time they could have done way more here.

But maybe I’m just that oddball nuclear history buff that expected too much?
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2023, 03:01:21 pm »
Zero on the refinement of the fissile materials and the huge effort that went into that. They just represent it all as literally marbles in a glass jar.
That part is odd. I would expect them to skip over almost anything that's even basic physics or engineering, but skipping the massive industrial effort is strange.
And I mentioned annoying. Holy crap, almost the entire film has constant background music that drowns out the dialog. Dialog that should be important and focussed gets downed up.
Mood over clarity seems to be the norm in cinema sound these days. As a native English speaker I now generally watch things at home with the subtitles turned on.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 03:14:31 pm by coppice »
 
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Offline dobsonr741

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2023, 03:18:40 pm »
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2023, 03:51:40 pm »
Probably the biography of Richard Feynman is a more interesting read if you want to have some insight into the effort it took to design the first atom bomb.

Dialog being drowned out by music and sound effects is symptomatic nowadays. Many TV series suffer from it as well. That is the reason I download everything and pull the audio through a band pass filter from 500Hz to 4kHz to make the dialogs come out better.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online magic

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2023, 03:52:51 pm »
Feels good living under a rock.

By the way, wasn't this movie produced in America by any chance? Sounds about typical for that place and time...
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2023, 04:10:05 pm »
I haven't seen the movie yet, but I read the book it was based on:  "American Prometheus" by Kai Bird.
I assume that like the book, the movie concentrates on the interesting biography of Oppenheimer itself, rather than the physics and engineering of the bomb project.
In 2007, I went to the opera "Dr Atomic" by John Adams, in Chicago (a joint venture between San Francisco, Chicago, and Amsterdam).
The prop for "The Gadget" was perfect (obviously based on project photographs), down to the MS31 cable connectors.
However, in the important meteorology scene (where Gen. Groves doesn't understand why he can't order a guaranteed forecast), the walkie-talkie used to communicate with the observers looked like 1970 Radio Shack, not the Galvin SCR-536 we all know from WWII movies (made in Chicago).
Question:  you mentioned the reactor under the football stands (CP-1 at Stagg Field, University of Chicago).  Did the movie show Oppenheimer at the criticality tests (December 1942)?
Fermi, Szilard, Compton, Wigner, and other locals were there, including H L Anderson who was still on the faculty when I attended Chicago.
I believe Oppenheimer was active in California at that point in history, while Los Alamos was being formed.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2023, 04:14:30 pm »
But maybe I’m just that oddball nuclear history buff that expected too much?
TBH, I was waiting for a review like this. I can't say I am surprised, since the contemporary Hollywood has been quite disappointing to tell interesting stories and I am not really hopeful for any scientific/engineering detailed movies after the fiasco (IMO) about Alan Turing's work on the crypto stuff at WWII.
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Offline JohanH

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2023, 04:29:56 pm »
And that investigation throughout the entire film gets annoying and confusing, cutting back and forth in time with various players, again, and again, and again, and again. Your head spins and you lose track of what timeline you are in.

I don't have statistics, but it feels like this has increased a lot lately, especially in TV series. It makes sense if someone recalls something and is thinking on the past. But to without purpose cut forth and back is so annoying and doesn't make any sense at all.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2023, 04:42:12 pm »
   First, let me start off by saying that one of my distant relatives worked for the OSS and was a known Soviet informer in the 1940s. So I have a lot more than a casual interest in that area. With that in mind, I've read A LOT about the Communist spy networks that operated inside the US in the 1930, 40s and early 1950s including reading the the much later released Vernona decrypts and the FBI investigation reports that were released in the 1980s and 90s. And IMO if Oppenheimer wasn't actively involved with leaking information to them then he was at the very least turned a very blind eye towards their intelligence gathering operations. His wife was a known and active member of the Communist Party USA and so were several of his closest friends. And there is at least one now released recording of one of his friends asking him to supply the USSR with classified information. Oppenheimer failed to report that contact, which he was REQUIRED to do. That alone fully justifies him losing his security clearance.

    But I've noticed there has a been a concerted effort by someone in the last ten years or so to "rehabilitate" his image.  Just like for decades, there were continuing efforts by the sons of the Rosenbergs to claim that their parents were innocent of spying charges.  But in around 1980, the FBI released SOME of the Vernona transcripts that fully PROVED that the Rosenbergs were guilty of espionage AND at about the same time, Ethyl Rosenberg's brother David Greenglass finally went public and co-authored a book, 'The Brother',  about the entire story of his and the Rosenberg's spying efforts. NOW you no longer hear claims about the Rosenbergs innocence.

   My opinion is that Oppenheimer probably had been a member of the Communist Party USA in the 1930s but then either lost interest OR like many others in the party was TOLD by Moscow to drop his public membership and to go underground but to keep supplying the USSR with information.  The FBI and other US intelligence agencies have never publicly said which they believe happened.  But to me it is clear that he was an idealist and at least passively allowed agents of the USSR to continue to operate in his social, family, educational circles and IMO, most likely within the various parts of the US atomic bomb program.

   I urge anyone that is interested in this to go look up the names that I mentioned and the Vernona records and other items and read them for yourself and not to rely on the various claims, disclaimers and accusations that have been floating around for the last 50 years and certainly do not relay on Hollywood to tell you the truth!  The book 'The Brother' is a great place to start and fully discloses how the Soviet spy agencies actually operated in the US in those years, including how they recruited "useful idiots" (their term for their American partners) and how they communicated and how many of both the Americans and the soviet agents were eventually caught and a lot of other necessary background material.  Here are two more useful links http://www.johnearlhaynes.org/page66.html#_ftn3 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_in_the_Venona_papers. Yes, my kin is listed there but I won't say who it is. 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 04:53:47 pm by Stray Electron »
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2023, 04:53:46 pm »
They were strange times. Just after the 2nd World War the British government gave the USSR extensive access to their most advanced technologies, like jet engines. This included detailed plans and manufacturing information for Rolls Royce's latest models. It appears almost everyone on all sides scratched their heads over just why this would be done, but it did happen. The Russians must have put the knowledge in the right hands, because it didn't take them long to have their own jet fighter so good it gave the US a very hard time in Korea.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2023, 04:57:20 pm »
Probably the biography of Richard Feynman is a more interesting read if you want to have some insight into the effort it took to design the first atom bomb.

Dialog being drowned out by music and sound effects is symptomatic nowadays. Many TV series suffer from it as well. That is the reason I download everything and pull the audio through a band pass filter from 500Hz to 4kHz to make the dialogs come out better.

Agree.
Everybody should read "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!".

And old Yamaha receiver I have have has a program that suppresses that automatically. Need I say that is on most of the time, and even when I enable full surround, I deliberately attenuate sub in volume because most of the time it is just mental...
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 05:08:51 pm by 2N3055 »
 
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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2023, 04:58:56 pm »
   You can now read many of the Vernona transcripts directly on the NSA's (No Such Agency. LOL! ) website  <https://www.nsa.gov/Helpful-Links/NSA-FOIA/Declassification-Transparency-Initiatives/Historical-Releases/Venona/smdpage14707/14/>
 

Offline peter-h

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2023, 05:33:03 pm »
Stray Electron thank you for such an excellent post, and right on the mark. As ex comm bloc (CZ) this has been an interest of mine since I could read :)

Even though Oppenheimer does appear on the Venona list (as one might expect) Venona still contains many agents who were never identified. Pity the programme was shut c. 1980 because today's computers are so much more powerful and better able to look for patterns in the "duplicate OTP" traffic. I wonder why not the whole lot has been declassified.

Fuchs gets the "credit" for giving the USSR the bomb and while he gave them the dimensioned drawings they were sure to have got other details from other sources.
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2023, 05:36:57 pm »
This is almost entirely a character movie about Oppenheimer and how he got shafted after the war, all the commie stuff etc.

I do not understand how you got misled, but that is exactly what I expect the movie to be about based on the title and trailers.  Maybe that is because I am somewhat acquainted with what happened to Oppenheimer?

I tend to be less interested in movies about the engineering of the bombs themselves because they lack detail, and where they include detail they usually get it wrong, perhaps deliberately like Tom Clancy did.
 
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2023, 05:40:50 pm »
 Oppie's great  love Jean Tateloc was a diehard commie.

Testimony of Dr Edward TELLER at Dr O security clearance hearing 1956
asked if he believed Oppenheimer to be a security risk, Teller testifies

“In a great number of cases, I have seen Dr. Oppenheimer act – I understand that Dr. Oppenheimer acted – in a way that for me was exceedingly hard to understand.
 I thoroughly disagreed with him in numerous issues and his actions frankly appeared to me confused and complicated.
 To this extent I feel that I would like to see the vital interests of this country in hands which I understand better, and therefore trust more.”

https://ahf.nuclearmuseum.org/ahf/history/oppenheimer-security-hearing/

https://famous-trials.com/oppenheimer/2706-testimony-of-dr-edward-teller-in-the-oppenheimer-hearing

Jon

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Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2023, 05:47:38 pm »
Quote
And I mentioned annoying. Holy crap, almost the entire film has constant background music that drowns out the dialog. Dialog that should be important and focussed gets downed up.
And not just light background music, BLOODY LOUD, pulsating annoying crap.
Literally floor shaking stuff, I didn’t know my local cinema could go that low in frequency. And I’m, not talking the explosions, I’m talking about important dialog!
You just want to shout at the screen to shut the F up! And for the entire 3 hours.
It does go dead silent in a few places, but not where it needs to, and not even close to enough.
It’s like Nolan is trying to put you inside Oppenheimers head, and he’s got constant migraine headaches, so you have to experience that too.

I have a dad that is deaf in one side and he struggles with these films. Even I do when they insist on "acting" so whisper stuff that would usually be spoken.

I'm not surprised that it is not a film about the science, that would require writers that care about source material. There have been many films that turned me off as soon as I realised it wasn't about the subject of the film but some random shoehorned need to have a love interest or some sort of conspiracy for example "Imitation Game". The only program in recent years that I really enjoyed for the information and background it provided was the Chernobyl TV series, it wasn't exact on the science but it gave enough that I felt better informed while also being entertained with some great stories. By the way, I enjoy tales of WW2 and I really disliked the Dunkirk film as well as that Peal Harbour one.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2023, 05:54:52 pm »
You can't expect movies to be documentaries  8)
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2023, 06:04:58 pm »
I have not seen the movie and still look forward to it.

In the late 80' I visited Los Alamos several times, because I was so fascinated by the trinity project. In addition, the junk yard next to the labs had so many jewels of stuff, I could have stayed there for days. Even bought a few things out of the times from the early lab days.

A year later I met Edward Teller in the Market Cafe in Santa Fe, where he was a regular guest, and we had only a short conversation, but it was really cool, since I was so much interested in this subject.

The trailer intrigued me.
But I was expecting also technical and physics to be shown.
At least now, I will not be too disappointed.
Thanks for your summary, Dave!
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Online BrianHG

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2023, 10:02:41 pm »
The actual science behind the lens implosion plutonium bomb:

 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2023, 10:59:46 pm »
This is almost entirely a character movie about Oppenheimer and how he got shafted after the war, all the commie stuff etc.
I do not understand how you got misled, but that is exactly what I expect the movie to be about based on the title and trailers.  Maybe that is because I am somewhat acquainted with what happened to Oppenheimer?

Is there another trailer I missed?
Almost the entire movie is about the commie scare.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2023, 11:00:37 pm »
You can't expect movies to be documentaries  8)

At least throw us a few bones?
 
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Online BrianHG

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2023, 11:07:21 pm »
You can't expect movies to be documentaries  8)

At least throw us a few bones?
Imax films which are documentaries do exist.  Looks like if you want the entire deal, you will have to wait or search for a good BBC / PBS documentary.  Even the clip I placed 3 posts above has more technical info on the design difficulties and inner secrets of the implosion style bomb than most documentaries.  So, maybe some Youtube video might have even more technical interesting stuff compared to any big production style docus.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2023, 11:12:01 pm »

Basically nothing for technical minded people to get excited over, and certainly nothing for those like me with an interest in the history of nuclear development.

making a movies that get technical people excited probably isn't you best bet on making hundreds of millions at the box office ;)

 
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Offline vad

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2023, 11:16:44 pm »
A scene with Oppenheimer and Truman in the oval office is great.
The best scene in the movie, in my opinion, features Gary Oldman portraying Truman.

Edit: PS. For those who are not familiar with Gary’s career, he is best known for his exceptional portrayal of villains in numerous films.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 11:25:33 pm by vad »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Oppenheimer Movie Review
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2023, 11:36:11 pm »
making a movies that get technical people excited probably isn't you best bet on making hundreds of millions at the box office ;)

When I was a teenager, I got excited that PBS was going to do an episode of some science show about fluorescent lamps.  I was looking forward to technical details which would allow me to design an electronic ballast.  Wow, I was sure disappointed.  After that, I gave up on anything being technically interesting on TV, and movies, which has so far remained the case.
 
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