OT Cost of an Airplane Ticket

[Homer J Simpson]

Interesting off topic watch.

https://youtu.be/6Oe8T3AvydU

[tautech]

Want cheap flights, encourage your children to work for an airline. 

[System Error Message]

I once wanted to be a pilot, flying is something i would consider fun and being able to keep planes in the air in simulators like IL-2 despite their damage and actually landing them without killing the crew is interesting but i dont have the perfect eyesight needed to be a commercial pilot.

Being a pilot is the cheapest way to fly as instead of spending money, you get paid to go around the world but you do get worked a lot so that cuts down your holiday time at every place you go (and you have that mandatory minimum rest time as well which you need to sleep through) .

Modern planes may be more durable than ww2 planes but they are more difficult to land on non tarmac surfaces and have a higher stall speed. Just 1 landing gear going off the tarmac can cause the plane to spin, fall apart and kill everyone.

I still think international flights are very expensive. There shouldnt be visa fees that the airline needs to pay as tourists benefit the country they go to and cheaper tickets to a country is encouraging. Even though lots of airlines have international flights for the competition they just are very expensive even though airlines have their own hubs in some airports where they dont have to pay that special airport costs.

[tautech]

I once wanted to be a pilot, flying is something i would consider fun and being able to keep planes in the air in simulators like IL-2 despite their damage and actually landing them without killing the crew is interesting but i dont have the perfect eyesight needed to be a commercial pilot.

My daughter got nearly through her studies when her eyesight deteriorated (far too much head in books) but corrective lenses and contact lenses allowed her to continue to the point she is now training as a captain.
She doesn't wear them all the time, only flying and driving.

[System Error Message]

I once wanted to be a pilot, flying is something i would consider fun and being able to keep planes in the air in simulators like IL-2 despite their damage and actually landing them without killing the crew is interesting but i dont have the perfect eyesight needed to be a commercial pilot.

My daughter got nearly through her studies when her eyesight deteriorated (far too much head in books) but corrective lenses and contact lenses allowed her to continue to the point she is now training as a captain.
She doesn't wear them all the time, only flying and driving.

I guess that depends on the airline and country.

[Maxlor]

Expensive? What? 

When I checked a couple of weeks ago, I could get a return flight from Zurich to Singapore (yes, both ways!) for about 550CHF (roughly the same in EUR or USD) and that's with Singapore Airlines in an A380 too, which is nice as far as airlines/planes go.

Flights are cheaper than ever nowadays.

[dannyf]

Flights are some of the least expensive way to travel now.

Airlines are in a difficult place: low marginal cost and super high fixed costs. About 10 years ago, low cost airlines run less than 10c per passenger mile, in terms of marginal costs.

This makes competition a huge profit killer.

[rollatorwieltje]

I once wanted to be a pilot, flying is something i would consider fun and being able to keep planes in the air in simulators like IL-2 despite their damage and actually landing them without killing the crew is interesting but i dont have the perfect eyesight needed to be a commercial pilot.

My daughter got nearly through her studies when her eyesight deteriorated (far too much head in books) but corrective lenses and contact lenses allowed her to continue to the point she is now training as a captain.
She doesn't wear them all the time, only flying and driving.

I guess that depends on the airline and country.

The requirements are roughly the same everywhere, you absolutely don't need perfect eyesight. Up to -/+3 refractive is ok, up to -5 is allowed if it's correctable and stable.

For a private pilot license you can be pretty much blind, which is somewhat disturbing.

But something else;

Being a pilot is the cheapest way to fly as instead of spending money

This is absolutely not true. Many starting pilots need to pay to be able to fly, on top of their already expensive training. Good to know your pilot is getting shafted for doing his job.
Also as airplane crew you don't have time to visit the countries you're in at all. You'll need every second of sleep you can get. Conditions for airline personnel are horrible, a victim of the race to the bottom. And for what? Airline tickets are dirt cheap, in many cases even cheaper than driving a car. Hell, in many cases parking your car is more expensive than the ticket.

[CatalinaWOW]

Big cost left out of the analysis was cost of money.  Interesting that fuel cost was nearly negligable as was crew cost even though those are the things that get all of the publicity.

All of that leads to the standard joke in the airline business.  "It is easy to make a small fortune in the air transport industry.  You merely need to start with a large one."

[EEVblog]

Want cheap flights, encourage your children to work for an airline. 

Or work for a company that pays for your travel.

[b_force]

Flying is cheap if you compare it with the distance.
Public transport and owning a car is much more expensive.
Once again it is mainly labor you're paying for (I mean the total labor, not only the staff on the flight itself)

Here in NL you pay already a ridiculous 1500-2500 euro to get a drivers license!
That at least is twice a return ticket to NZ/AU.

[rrinker]

 Yes, but unless you have James Bond's Lotus, you can't drive from NZ to AUS. Or well I guess you could take the Sydney Harbour Bridge 

[vodka]

Flying is cheap if you compare it with the distance.

Certain but if you travel large distance starting 10 GM,if less 1GM maybe will be more cheapest on train or car .Furthermore, you will avoid the scanning cavity body or that his company lost his bags.

Here in NL you pay already a ridiculous 1500-2500 euro to get a drivers license!

On theory ,only is paid one time on the life.

[rs20]

Certain but if you travel large distance starting 10 GM,if less 1GM maybe will be more cheapest on train or car.

What's GM? Is that supposed to be a clever way to say "1000 km"? Because if so, that's Mm, not MM, GM or Gm.

[vodka]

Sorry I want to refer  ,  1 Mm= 1000km

[djacobow]

The requirements are roughly the same everywhere, you absolutely don't need perfect eyesight. Up to -/+3 refractive is ok, up to -5 is allowed if it's correctable and stable.

For a private pilot license you can be pretty much blind, which is somewhat disturbing.

The old joke is that you need to be able to see lightning and hear thunder. The legal vision requirements for a pilot in the US are as such:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/standards/

Note that the page says nothing about the dioptric maxima of the pilot's uncorrected vision, so I don't know wheere that +/- 3 or up to -5 comes from.

Airlines might require better, but I'd be surprised.

Another wrinkle: in the US the FAA just a few weeks ago passed a medical reform that allows private pilots who fly under a Class III medical to never require another visit to a medical examiner as long as they meet the requirements. Before that, pilots under 40 had to be checked every 5 years, and over 40, every 2. You'll still need to go over with your normal physician at least every 4 years, though.

Most flying tasks do not seem to require eagle eyes. A few, like scanning for other aircraft, definitely benefit from good vision.

[rob.manderson]

Want cheap flights, encourage your children to work for an airline. 

Or work for a company that pays for your travel.

The downside of that is that they *will* insist on sending you somewhere on no notice whatsoever.  I worked for a company back in 2005 where I spent about 2 months of the entire year actually at home - the rest of the time was in France or The Philippines or Dallas Texas.  On one occasion I flew in to Phoenix from France, arriving at 10 PM on Friday evening - only to have to be back at the airport Saturday afternoon to go to the Philippines.  (And there will be those who say I was lucky to get the night at home on that occasion  ).

[rollatorwieltje]

The requirements are roughly the same everywhere, you absolutely don't need perfect eyesight. Up to -/+3 refractive is ok, up to -5 is allowed if it's correctable and stable.

For a private pilot license you can be pretty much blind, which is somewhat disturbing.

The old joke is that you need to be able to see lightning and hear thunder. The legal vision requirements for a pilot in the US are as such:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/standards/

Note that the page says nothing about the dioptric maxima of the pilot's uncorrected vision, so I don't know wheere that +/- 3 or up to -5 comes from.

Airlines might require better, but I'd be surprised.

Another wrinkle: in the US the FAA just a few weeks ago passed a medical reform that allows private pilots who fly under a Class III medical to never require another visit to a medical examiner as long as they meet the requirements. Before that, pilots under 40 had to be checked every 5 years, and over 40, every 2. You'll still need to go over with your normal physician at least every 4 years, though.

Most flying tasks do not seem to require eagle eyes. A few, like scanning for other aircraft, definitely benefit from good vision.

It's in the UK CAA Medical requirements. Those were used by several other countries as well, just renamed to JAA Medial. Not sure about the current regulation, it seems like the organization has changed gain, it's now called EASA.
http://www.caa.co.uk/Aeromedical-Examiners/Medical-standards/Pilots-(EASA)/Conditions/Visual/Visual-system-guidance-material-GM/#eyeex

[System Error Message]

Good eyesight is important for flying. You wouldnt want your pilot to see the runway wrong or fly into a flag pole. So despite the law every airline has their own restrictions and i remember talking to veteran pilots as airline companies downsize and hire from time to time so they often steal pilots from each other instead of going for new ones. If an airline accepts you for being a pilot they usually cover your training fees (but they will take a cut off your salary till its paid). Pilots are paid well simply because you have to handle peoples lives and strict rules are in place because of this. A disgruntled pilot could be a danger to others.

What about sailing? Sailing could be cheaper for international travel (though taking much longer). Using only wind theres no fuel to worry about, only the initial cost of the boat itself.

I remember an article about flying saying that flying is actually safer than driving because of the number of accidents vs the number of flights and plane crashes and that so much more technology has gone into airplane safety compared to cars as airplanes can cost millions and airlines will still buy them whereas cars cost thousands and people wont buy if they cost more (except for luxury).

[boffin]

I really don't follow his argument.  The CPE (cost per enplanement) is $10-20/ea, the fuel cost is about $0.05/mi/seat and other costs (labour, cost of airplanes etc etc), is about $0.10/mi/seat

So....  a 1000 mile flight should cost about
$15 + 1000*0.15 = $165  and typically less than that if you buy in advance

strikes me airline prices are pretty much what they should be.

[System Error Message]

his argument is about people complaining that airplane tickets are expensive. Many cant even afford a car so to them even $80 for a national flight is overpriced, the same people who would prefer $2 usb wall plugs.

[amyk]

I remember an article about flying saying that flying is actually safer than driving because of the number of accidents vs the number of flights and plane crashes and that so much more technology has gone into airplane safety compared to cars as airplanes can cost millions and airlines will still buy them whereas cars cost thousands and people wont buy if they cost more (except for luxury).

Commercial aviation is much safer than driving because of all the bureaucracy --- it's often said that the licensing is more about memorising all the rules than understanding how to fly the plane itself. The autopilot does most of the work anyway...

General aviation is not safer, in fact less.

[tszaboo]

IDK. I bought back and forth airplane tickets for 100 EUR for my vacation, 1400 km. I think last year I got a ticket for 14. I payed more for the airport transfer bus. Those things are expensive.

[djacobow]

Good eyesight is important for flying.

It's important, but really, not as important as you think.

I have poor eyesight and I fly all the time. I have -5 in one eye and -5.5 in the other, plus an astigmatism. I don't know how well corrected it is, but I pass the eye tests, so that must mean it is at least 20/40. The last time I had an eye test, I nearly failed for near vision, and the AME suggested I look into bifocals. I found that strange as I have never had any issue seeing the instruments while flying and wearing my regular glasses which are calibrated for distant vision.

You wouldnt want your pilot to see the runway wrong or fly into a flag pole.

These are not things that are what a pilot with poor eyesight worries about. If you are near a flag pole, you have already made some serious mistakes. Pilots do worry about hitting radio towers, guy wires, etc, and honestly, often those are invisible even with good eyesight. They are best avoided with maps.

Poor eyesight makes the chance of a mid-air collision more likely, particularly if you are operating VFR (that is, not flying an airliner). Flying and airliner you are IFR all the time, and the vast majority of the time you are also flying in airspace where ATC is separating all the aircraft. (Climbing out of a Class B airport, you pass through class E airspace before entering Class A airspace, and in the E space, there can be VFRs that you need to look for.) Point is: not really all that much eyeballing going on.

So despite the law every airline has their own restrictions and i remember talking to veteran pilots as airline companies downsize and hire from time to time so they often steal pilots from each other instead of going for new ones. If an airline accepts you for being a pilot they usually cover your training fees (but they will take a cut off your salary till its paid).

Practice varies by country. I can only speak to the US.

Regarding vision requirements,  I could not find anything on the web to imply that airlines have vision requirements separate and apart from the FAA. The airlines require you possess a valid Class I medical, and that has a vision component, but I'm not sure there's more than that. I'm honestly curious, so would love a pointer to move information.

Regarding training, I do not believe there are any US carriers that will take you ab initio, but that is more common in some other countries. For example, United Airlines requires you to have 1000 hours turbine time and an ATP rating to be hired. (https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/company/career/pilot.aspx) I'm sure they'll train you in their aircraft and procedures, but any pilot with an ATP is already highly trained. Most of these pilots are moving up from smaller carriers where they built time in smaller aircraft (making smaller money). Those carriers, in turn, like to see a commercial rating and a few hundred hours multi engine to start a minimum. The pilots usually pay their own way to get that far, and you can also consider the time working for minor ducats at a regional carrier as a kind of pilot cost, too.

Pilots are paid well simply because you have to handle peoples lives and strict rules are in place because of this. A disgruntled pilot could be a danger to others.

Pilots, generally, are not paid well until they are captains with high seniority flying for major airlines. Here is a bit about that: https://www.pea.com/airline-pilot-salary/ Starting pilots working for regional airlines make something in the $20k's. Median for all airline pilots of ~$100k which isn't bad, but this includes the older pilots. I suspect STRONGLY that your pilots today are never going to be making the money that high-seniority pilots today make.

As it happens, lots of people have jobs where they could be a danger to many others, and a lot of those jobs don't pay either.

I remember an article about flying saying that flying is actually safer than driving because of the number of accidents vs the number of flights and plane crashes and that so much more technology has gone into airplane safety compared to cars as airplanes can cost millions and airlines will still buy them whereas cars cost thousands and people wont buy if they cost more (except for luxury).

Flying on an airline is supremely safe. Statistically, it is probably safer than standing in your kitchen or bathroom. There are kinds of flying that are not nearly as safe, but most people will not be exposed to them. I am a private pilot, and fly piston singles. The statistics are hard to correlate, since driving accident rates are usually calculated per mile and flying per hour, etc, but overall, I'd say operating VFR in good weather is a bit safer than driving, and operating IFR in IMC is somewhat less safe than driving.