Author Topic: Ot: Dishwashers  (Read 14953 times)

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Offline Alex EisenhutTopic starter

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Ot: Dishwashers
« on: December 23, 2020, 07:04:46 am »


Fun.

A thought occurs. The rinse-aid is loaded into a compartment and is typically good for dozens of loads.

Why isn't the detergent also this way? Why not load the whole door (it is mostly empty, no?) with a big tank of gel-type detergent?
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2020, 07:11:01 am »
A thought occurs. The rinse-aid is loaded into a compartment and is typically good for dozens of loads.

Why isn't the detergent also this way? Why not load the whole door (it is mostly empty, no?) with a big tank of gel-type detergent?

Obviously you would need to come up with a mechanism to prevent detergent being released into the rinse water.

Getting rinse-aid into detergent isn't a problem, though.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2020, 10:16:12 am »
That was interesting and entertaining.  Funny enough when I see those pack commercials I always think the same "but what about the prewash cycle?".  I've always just used the powder myself.

This just made me realize, designing a dishwasher would be kinda fun.  Coming up with the algorithms for the different cycles and trying to optimize the cleaning process etc.   

Or just do like the commercial grade ones and use brute force.    100 amps dedicated circuit and super heat the water and have the wash cycle last like no longer than 10 minutes.  There is something crazy about seeing a 2" thick teck cable feeding a dishwasher directly lol.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2020, 11:41:11 am »
your glass will explode

normal dishwasher takes out plenty over time
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2020, 11:46:28 am »
I was using Sunlight (Henkel/Unilever) pods until a few badly tarnished all my stainless steel utensils and cookware. So I ditched that brand and tried Costco dishwasher pods - they  leave behind rinse-aid residue and perfume stinks up the entire house.
Found most of the problem is my strainer partially clogged with mineral deposits, so it doesn't drain as fast as needed or something.

It's the state-machine software failing and being impossible to troubleshoot when a sensor hiccups, the dishwasher just ends up getting replaced.
Easy to write software that goes through the motions, the hard work is when you have to check and deal with sensors, or in my case a slow drain cycle.
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2020, 12:08:58 pm »
I've never understood people who use tablets over powder. They are SO much more expensive.

Just a quick back-of-the-napkin calculation based on the Finish dishwasher powder I use (certainly not the cheapest, but good in terms of quality):

Finish Powder:
The dosage for a full load in my dishwasher is about 20 grams.
I buy the 2 kg packs of powder @ AUD$19.50.
This equates to 19.5 cents per wash (without rinse aid). Adding Finish brand rinse aid as well increases the cost to about 30 cents per full load.

Tablets:
The absolute cheapest tablets I could find in the same store work out to be AUD$35.00 for a pack of 120 tablets.
This equates to 29 cents per wash (without rinse aid).

A pack of liquid "tablets" that also included rinse aid worked out to be 78 cents per wash.

The most expensive from the same store were $1.06 per wash for the Finish "quantum ultimate pro" tablets with quantum balls etc... (what a load of wank).

Let's just say you do 5 full loads per week.
Absolute cheapest powder I could find: AUD$10.40/year
Finish Powder: AUD$50.70/year
Finish Powder + Rinse Aid: AUD$78.00/year
Generic brand tablets: AUD$75.40/year
Finish Tablets + Marketing Wank: AUD$275.60/year
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 12:15:44 pm by Halcyon »
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2020, 12:17:03 pm »
I was using Sunlight (Henkel/Unilever) pods until a few badly tarnished all my stainless steel utensils and cookware. So I ditched that brand and tried Costco dishwasher pods - they  leave behind rinse-aid residue and perfume stinks up the entire house.
Found most of the problem is my strainer partially clogged with mineral deposits, so it doesn't drain as fast as needed or something.

It's the state-machine software failing and being impossible to troubleshoot when a sensor hiccups, the dishwasher just ends up getting replaced.
Easy to write software that goes through the motions, the hard work is when you have to check and deal with sensors, or in my case a slow drain cycle.

After I moved into my house, the drain was clogged 6 months later. Half-way between my kitchen and the street. I had to call a professional to clean it up ($$$). So the drain was full of the remains of those pods. Previous owner probably was using the cheapest pods possible... The ones that are liquid are better, so I suggest using that to everyone. The price difference is not that much. At least online, the local shops are selling it for the price of gold.
I've never understood people who use tablets over powder. They are SO much more expensive.

Just a quick back-of-the-napkin calculation based on the Finish dishwasher powder I use (certainly not the cheapest, but good in terms of quality):

Finish Powder:
The dosage for a full load in my dishwasher is about 20 grams.
I buy the 2 kg packs of powder @ AUD$19.50.
This equates to 19.5 cents per wash (without rinse aid). Adding Finish brand rinse aid as well increases the cost to about 30 cents per full load.

Tablets:
The absolute cheapest tablets I could find in the same store work out to be AUD$35.00 for a pack of 120 tablets.
This equates to 29 cents per wash (without rinse aid).

A pack of liquid "tablets" that also included rinse aid worked out to be 78 cents per wash.

The most expensive from the same store were $1.06 per wash for the Finish "quantum ultimate pro" tablets with quantum balls etc... (what a load of wank).

Let's just say you do 5 full loads per week.
Powder: AUD$50.70/year
Powder + Rinse Aid: AUD$78.00/year
"Cheap" tablets: AUD$75.40/year
Tablets + Marketing Wank: AUD$275.60/year

Finish quantum ultimate (super hyper turbo) is 0.18 EUR from Herr Bezos.  :-//
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 12:19:17 pm by NANDBlog »
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2020, 01:26:18 pm »
i noticed the cheap tablets suck and then the thing you should do about minerals is use one of those dishwasher cleaner bottles once in a while. it makes the stainless steel in the dishwasher look new and supposedly clears out all the mineral deposits.

I tried cheap tablets (that did not have the liquid jel technology or whatever you want to call it) and it results in lots of rewash and more spots after it was done.. the cascade high quality tablets leave a spot free glass.

baking soda with a drop of dishwashing soap works also, but literary 1 drop, (more similar to cheap tablets).

The reason is you want to be able to shelf the stuff right after removal without having to wipe it down. There is some kind of weird pattern you can do with arranging the stuff to make cheaper chemicals work but I have too much random shape cookware to figure it out.

Do you use a mixture of clear glass and porcelain? I inspect each dish under strong light while twirling it before putting it away to make sure there are no spots.

Depending on how much meal prep you do and how well you figure out your dishwasher capabilities with baking soda you can sneak some baking soda washes in there once in a while to handle non difficult cookware to reduce cost (i.e. use it the day you need to clean a bunch of tupperware that was filled with dryer non greasy foods and tea cups) then use the premium stuff after you do stuff with lots of frying and fancy tools.

and it also depends on how aggressive you are with filling the dishwasher.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 01:36:02 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2020, 01:34:26 pm »
Powder vs. tablets:

Pros:
+ Cheaper
+ Allows usage as pre-wash
+ Thanks to pre-wash, better result
+ Less waste
+ Fits all machines
+ Adjustable amount for varying amount/dirtiness of dishes

Cons:
None

Tablets vs. powder

Pros:
None

Cons:
- More expensive
- Inability to use as prewash
- Thanks to water-only prewash, inferior results
- More waste
- Inability to use in some specific small/countertop/old machines with wrong shape of detergent tray
- Inability to adjust the amount
- Buying them, you support the production of the TV advertisements marketing this shit
 
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Online coppercone2

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2020, 02:27:35 pm »
a con is you need to pour god damn powder into some bull shit that is 6 inches off the ground instead of putting in a solid object into a slot

maybe if you can cast it into a ingot to make your own tablet it would work but I still get better cleaning performance form the cascade crazy liquid things

I know it makes a difference because i ran out of platinum pods once and had some solid bars and they pissed me off severely. It was like running out of food and having to switch to dogfood. same thing as using cheap cleaning wipes (they SUCK in comparison). So long those pods don't glue together into 1 mega pod they kick ass, you get no dusty residue on your fingers (the tablets are dusty), don't need a measuring tool, cant over pour, can't spill.

I washed all dishes manually for many years and I don't mind paying extra for the pods now. if you cook every meal you make yourself seconds start to count on the crappy days. Keeps things running smooth
i do use them with the blue drying compound though
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 02:36:07 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline mag_therm

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2020, 03:13:58 pm »
Firstly, the family is trained to rinse all the solids off in the sink (despite public advice not to) before loading

Secondly, the main problem  here is then , with the common USA brand of dishwasher I use, the blue inlet solenoid valves.
 The fill level is determined only by a fixed timer on the board. The float switch is just in series with the solenoid to prevent flooding when the valve sticks open.
Over time , especially in winter, the valves admit less and less water during the fill time.
Then dishwasher problems start.

The valves are about $75, and  I have 2 dishwashers here, and replace them every 5 to 10 years.
So I need to replace these valves periodically
The design is the same, tamperproof. Part of the design problem of sticking, I think, is low inrush so they can use the smallest drivers/relays on the board.
But the mounting holes and orientation and price of the valves are changed model- by model.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2020, 03:44:29 pm »
Powder can cause streaks on glass depending on the dishwasher. Some are more prone than others.
 
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Offline Alex EisenhutTopic starter

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2020, 04:21:03 pm »
Maybe they should make a Pez dispenser with Alec's head to dispense pods...

Anyway, I usually just wash up by hand with a 3M sponge, which are the best. I rarely use my dishwasher, only when I got lazy and let stuff accumulate.

I guess the same pod vs powder logic applies to washing machines. The machines also have a pre-wash cycle.
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Offline ConKbot

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2020, 04:41:26 pm »
Ive found that for cleaning a dishwasher, citric acid is fantastic (cheap, and pretty useful for other stuff around the house)  My dishwasher was leaving soap residue on everything until I ran a cycle with a dispenser full of ctiric acid powder.  With most soaps being basic, obviously this is going to help with the residues, plus it is very hungry for metal ions, so if there is hard-water build up (calcium, magnesium carbonate) get consumed into water soluble calcium/magnesium citrates.

But I live in an apartment with a cheap garbage tier dishwasher, with only a spraybar at the bottom and that telescopes up to shoot a jet at the domed top of the machine.  No middle spraybar with its own water feed from the back, and certainly not a 3rd one at the top.  I'm pretty sure the rinse-aid dispenser doesn't work, but I'm certainly not going to nag at maintenance over that at the moment, as I'm not that picky about the glassware being 100% spot free, and I'll just clean it every two months to keep it from being excessive. 


Other uses: Descaling faucet aerators and shower heads. Passivation of stainless steel. I.e. my stainless vacuum coffee mug or the decanter on my drip coffee maker after cleaning.  Cleaning any sort of spots, be it soap or mineral buildup on bathroom or kitchen sink hardware.  a 10 lb/4.5 kilo bag for $25 goes a long way.

I first learned about it after picking up soapmaking as a lockdown hobby. The in-situ formation of sodium citrate still performs the same function of bonding onto calcium/magnesium ions, keeping hard water from making insoluble/less soluble calcium and magnesium soaps, i.e. soapscum.
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2020, 07:53:34 pm »
a con is you need to pour god damn powder into some bull shit that is 6 inches off the ground instead of putting in a solid object into a slot

That depends on the machine, most modern machines don't have the tablet "slot" at the front of the top tray anymore. They say to put the tablet into the same compartment as the powder. There is literally no difference in many machines. The only difference is, user laziness and the perception of being "more convenient" for which I call bullshit.
 

Offline Alex EisenhutTopic starter

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2020, 08:12:08 pm »
Ive found that for cleaning a dishwasher, citric acid is fantastic

My friend told me he tosses a pouch of Tang in his.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 09:05:38 pm by Alex Eisenhut »
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2020, 08:55:05 pm »
Dishwasher pods are convenient - but OMG the list of chemical soup is terrible! Quiz on how many are carcinogenic, and this shit ends up in our water.
Here's Finish Powerball Max as an example:

Sodium Bicarbonate - Complexing/Sequestering Agent: Binds hard water and other minerals to allow the cleaning actives to perform more effectively. CAS#:144-55-8
Sodium Carbonate - Complexing/Sequestering Agent: Binds hard water and other minerals to allow the cleaning actives to perform more effectively. CAS#:497-19-8
Sodium Percarbonate - Bleaching Agent: Makes the appearance of substances white or colorless. CAS#:15630-89-4
Polyethylene Glycol - Binder: Helps bind the product ingredients together in a tablet format. CAS#:25322-68-3
Polyacrylic Acid Sodium Bisulfite Terminated - Antiredeposition Agent: Prevents the redeposition of soils back onto a surface, especially fabric surfaces. CAS#:68479-09-4
TAED - Bleach Activator: Enhances the performance of a Bleaching Agent. CAS#:10543-57-4

Trisodium Dicarboxymethyl Alaninate - Complexing/Sequestering Agent: Binds hard water and other minerals to allow the cleaning actives to perform more effectively. CAS#:164462-16-2
Microcrystalline Cellulose - Polymer: A large molecule, or macromolecule, composed of many repeated subunits. CAS#:9004-34-6
Polyvinyl Alcohol - Dissolvable Film: Coats the outside of a product but dissolves in water to release the contents. CAS#:25213-24-5
Citric Acid - Complexing/Sequestering Agent: Binds hard water and other minerals to allow the cleaning actives to perform more effectively. CAS#:77-92-9
Sodium Sulfate - Filler: Adjusts the concentration of ingredients in a product to deliver target benefits. CAS#:7757-82-6
Alcohol polyglycolether - Surfactant: Surface-active agent helps remove dirt, stains, and bad smells. CAS#:501019-91-6
(1-Hydroxyethylidene)Bisphosphonic Acid Sodium Salts - Complexing/Sequestering Agent: Binds hard water and other minerals to allow the cleaning actives to perform more effectively. CAS#:29329-71-3

Glycerin - Solvent: Solubilizes or dissolves at least one other substance to form a solution. CAS#:56-81-5
Protease Enzyme - Enzyme: Catalzyes the removal of various soils (protease: protein stains, amylase: starch stains, lipase: grease/oil stains). CAS#:9014-01-1 (high air toxicity, asthmagen)

Fragrance/Parfum:
C.I. Pigment Red 57
Magnesium Stearate
C.I. Pigment Blue 29
Zinc Acetate

Amylase Enzyme - Enzyme: Catalzyes the removal of various soils (protease: protein stains, amylase: starch stains, lipase: grease/oil stains). CAS#:9000-90-2 (high air toxicity, asthmagen)
Tolyltriazole - Corrosion Inhibitor: Helps maintain fresh product contents from corrosion or deterioration. CAS#:29385-43-1
Benzotriazole - Preservative: Preserves products from bacterial spoilage during transit and storage. CAS#:95-14-7
C.I. Acid Blue 182

Fragrance Component
d-Limonene - (IARC Carcinogens : Group 1, 2A, or 2B)
Delta-3-Carene - (AOEC Asthmagens)
Dodecanenitrile - (toxic air contaminant)
Ethyl Alcohol - (US NTP Carcinogens: Reproductive or developmental toxicant)

Non-Functional Constituent
Sodium Sulfate - Non-Functional Constituent CAS#:7757-82-6
Magnesium Sulfate - Non-Functional Constituent: CAS#:10034-99-8
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2020, 09:15:25 pm »
Interesting video, although my experience is different. 

I have owned/used five dishwashers after moving to US (in Brasil this is considered an expensive luxury): the first two were generic GE brands that had severe issues with cheap powder dishwasher soap. I had to resort to the more expensive soap variants and brands to get the dishes clean - that after rinsing everything before loading the machine, cleaning the drain filter and running hot water from the get go.

Then we moved to our current house that had a Bosch-branded model (with a single compartment dispenser). It was really good and I was able to go back to the cheap soap alternative without too much problems (frying and baking still needed the more expensive soap). When this broke, we replaced it with a fancy KitchenAid/Whirlpool (against my will)  that also did a good job and had a single dispenser - by then SWMBO had an idea of using a more natural soap that is a heap of garbage, so I kept using the fancier soap but this time in pod variety. This year we found out this crap developed a severe leak that immersed our kitchen in mold that required a LOT of money to remediate (my daughters have severe allergies) and I tossed it to go back to a Bosch again. So far the Bosch has been working quite well again, regardless of the soap variety (although the frying and baking pans still require the fancy soap treatment).

One thing I didn't see mentioned is the fact the soap has abrasives to scrub the dishes, but perhaps I missed this.
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Offline thm_w

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2020, 10:23:28 pm »
Fragrance Component
d-Limonene - (IARC Carcinogens : Group 1, 2A, or 2B)

d limonene is awesome, and edible:

Quote
Food Grade d-Limonene is a very effective, biodegradable solvent and degreaser, occurring in nature as the main component of citrus peel oil. Due to its attractive odor, versatility and GRAS rating (Generally Recognized As Safe) from US FDA, d-limonene & orange oil can be used safely & effectively in a wide range of products for and infinite number of applications.  Our CK100FG is distilled to a very high purity standards and is the perfect alternative to petroleum derived solvents when a non-harmful, natural product is preferred.
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2020, 11:52:26 pm »
Gees that's lemon or citrus rind (terpene) as a fragrance?  Finish wrongly list it as being on the IARC carcinogen list.
But it looks like the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) is another WHO clown car. Aloe vera is on the list?

"There is inadequate evidence in humans for the carcinogenicity of d-limonene."
"There is sufficient evidence in experimental animals for the carcinogenicity of d-limonene."
http://www.inchem.org/documents/iarc/vol73/73-11.html
https://monographs.iarc.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/mono73-16.pdf
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2020, 01:10:57 am »
baking soda with a drop of dishwashing soap works also, but literary 1 drop, (more similar to cheap tablets).
Yeah. You have to be carefull with dishwashing soap in a dishwashing machine. You'll make that mistake only once. Trust me on that  :'(
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Online coppercone2

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2020, 01:33:39 am »
I mean I assume I am paying a premium on those things because they do the R&D to figure out how those chemicals break down. Or at least I hope so.

Unless you wash with pure washing soda you are unlikely to find soap that is really reduced in chemical content. I have my doubts about sniffing vinegar all day as well (as a cheap and natural cleaner).
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2020, 06:15:52 am »
I like the Bosch brand also, mainly because of the integrated water softener that is not found in most dishwashers in the US. However, it's difficult to find dishwasher salt in the stores here. Luckily, pool salt seems to be the same thing and works wonderfully. I got a 50 pound bag on sale for $5 that should take me a decade to use up.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2020, 12:02:21 pm »
Interesting! The integrated water softener is standard over here, and it can be adjusted for your local water hardness.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2020, 02:53:42 pm »
I like the Bosch brand also, mainly because of the integrated water softener that is not found in most dishwashers in the US. However, it's difficult to find dishwasher salt in the stores here. Luckily, pool salt seems to be the same thing and works wonderfully. I got a 50 pound bag on sale for $5 that should take me a decade to use up.
My pool is salt water but, just like anything with the name "pool" attached to it is automatically assigend a premium price, I ended up finding the bags for water purifier at Lowe's to be a bit cheaper still. 😁

For a dishwasher any option will have a very high ROI - just don't leave the unused salt bag in a moderately moist area as it tends to pack really tightly until it becomes a very heavy boulder... (don't ask me how I know this)
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