Author Topic: Ot: Dishwashers  (Read 14947 times)

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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2020, 03:52:41 pm »
The water softener in dishwashers use a kind of ion exchange. For regeneration it needs salt - the exact type of salt is not that important. So the salt for a salt water pool is OK, unless there is to much calcium / magnesium in it. Similar road salt may be OK too - may be easier to get in some areas.

It depends on the local water quality: in some areas with already soft water there is no need to use it and in other areas with hard water it really helps. In a system without the water softener, one may need a special cleaning agent in areas with hard water.
There seem to be also different types of detergents - at least the list of ingredients looks quite different here in Germany.

The powder typ detergent can by annoying in a high humidity environment. The prices vary quite a bit, both between brands and  also between countries. Last times I checked here the cheaper tablets were not even more expensive anymore.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2020, 07:11:49 pm »
A thought occurs. The rinse-aid is loaded into a compartment and is typically good for dozens of loads.

Why isn't the detergent also this way? Why not load the whole door (it is mostly empty, no?) with a big tank of gel-type detergent?
Multiple manufacturers make dishwashers with automatic detergent dispensers.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2020, 05:40:03 am »
Being able to load the whole door could be interesting, could be a trap door on the outside where you pour a large quantity of powder and close the trap door.  There would be a dispensing mechanism that can dispense a precise amount and it would send an appropriate amount down a chute then seal, then the door would open on the inside to let it out.  The double seal would make sure no humidity from the wash cycle gets into the chute and dispenser.   The prewash and normal wash cycle could then be fully controlled by dispensing as little or much as needed.

Another approach that would be simpler is to have a form of carousel and you fill all the compartments and it will just turn a few times throughout the wash cycle.   Then you are good for a couple cycles before you have to fill it again.   I guess at the end of the day it's not like filling it for each wash is that big of a deal so there's not really any incentive to design this.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2020, 08:26:41 am »
Sodium bicarbonate? That's baking soda and is completely harmless. The other ingredients I don't know, but don't fall into the trap of believing that the names being difficult to pronounce or sounding "chemically" has anything to do with the toxicity of the substance. I see that a lot with the pseudoscience food/health crowd. Fact is if you list the chemical names for the substances that make up a fruit or vegetable it sounds like it could be some nasty industrial chemical.

Regarding the pods, we often use them because Costco has them cheap enough that I don't care if I could save a few pennies using powder, and they're very convenient. I think we spend about $25 every 4-5 months or so on a bucket of pods and the dishes come out cleaner than the powder we were using before. I was using the liquid gel (for dishwashers, not liquid dish soap for hand washing) and it works pretty well too. Regardless of which option I go with, the annual expenditure on dish detergent is down in the noise floor.
 
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Online Halcyon

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2020, 09:02:48 am »
A thought occurs. The rinse-aid is loaded into a compartment and is typically good for dozens of loads.

Why isn't the detergent also this way? Why not load the whole door (it is mostly empty, no?) with a big tank of gel-type detergent?

I'm guessing because most detergents used in dishwashers are powder-based. Powder tends to cake up with moisture (particularly from the drying cycle) so it's hard to store in anything other than an airtight container for long periods. Rinse aid is liquid and even if a little dilution occurs, it will still dispense.

Also, why make things more complicated with more moving parts? The operator can just tip a little detergent in each time. Takes almost no effort.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2020, 01:11:03 pm »
A thought occurs. The rinse-aid is loaded into a compartment and is typically good for dozens of loads.

Why isn't the detergent also this way? Why not load the whole door (it is mostly empty, no?) with a big tank of gel-type detergent?

I'm guessing because most detergents used in dishwashers are powder-based. Powder tends to cake up with moisture (particularly from the drying cycle) so it's hard to store in anything other than an airtight container for long periods. Rinse aid is liquid and even if a little dilution occurs, it will still dispense.

Also, why make things more complicated with more moving parts? The operator can just tip a little detergent in each time. Takes almost no effort.
Well, the main reason I can think of, beside convenience, is that people tend to overdose detergents, when given the chance. A properly designed dispenser could dispense just the right amount.

With that said: a) tabs/pods reduce this, and b) automatic dispensers so far haven't lived up to the hype.

My best friend and my mom each have a Miele (clothes) washer with an automatic detergent dispenser. The European model can use canisters you fill with your own detergents and/or softeners, or with Miele's own detergent system; the US model supports only the Miele detergent system. Miele's system sounds good on paper: it uses two liquids (one detergent, one liquid peroxide bleach) to overcome the problem of oxygen bleach degradation in liquid detergents. (This is why powder detergents are better at whitening: the oxygen bleaches are much more stable in dry form.) But independent performance tests show it doesn't actually work as well as an ordinary powder detergent. :/

The problem I see with automatic powder dispensing, whether with clothes washers or dishwashers, is moisture. I reckon it'd be extremely difficult to design a dispenser that is airtight enough to not allow in moisture from the machine, since seals would likely end up with powder on them, dramatically reducing their effectiveness. (Miele sorta does this, with a "powerdisk" powder detergent cartridge. I'm not sure how it's sealed, though, I just know the manuals say to clean the seals when changing the cartridge, and to dry everything well when doing so, lest the detergent clump up.)


Where automatic detergent dispensers are completely the norm is in commercial machines. But as you know, the common "tank" style of commercial dishwashers operate on fundamentally different principles from household dishwashers, relying on harsher chemistry and very high temperature wash water (which isn't drained between loads), optimized for newly-soiled dishes, rather than the dried-on foods of household dishes (where dishes may accumulate for days before being run).
 

Offline Alex EisenhutTopic starter

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2020, 03:16:18 pm »
That's why I said gel-type. I don't see the problem in removing one moving part, the wax motor or whatever opens the latch, and replacing it with a gravity feed detergent dispenser. Or I'm sure there's a clever mechanical thingy that lets you use the pressure of the water supply to move things along.

Then the dishwasher can use its existing turbidity sensor and dose in more detergent if needed.
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Offline tooki

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2020, 05:12:55 pm »
Dispensing liquids is easy, as the rinse aid dispenser in every dishwasher demonstrates. But you definitely want it controlled by the MCU, not run by a “dumb” mechanism like a wax motor. (How would it dispense only in the wash phase, and not in the drying phase which gets equally hot?) Modern appliances rely on MCU programs to carefully control their cycles in ways simple mechanical approaches cannot do.

Commercial dishwashers (both tank type and “fresh water” type, i.e ones using the same principle as household dishwashers) generally have detergent dispensers available (often standard), and they invariably use liquids, as they’re easy to pump from a jug and are easy to dose accurately. The modified dishwashers sold for laboratory/medical use (e.g. to clean lab ware, dental tools, etc, before sterilizing in an autoclave) also use liquid detergents.

P.S. Μy hunch is that the viscosity in dishwasher gels is purely artificial, for marketing and/or convenience purposes. Commercial dishwasher detergent liquids are not particularly viscous.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 05:14:44 pm by tooki »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2020, 11:14:57 pm »
I like the Bosch brand also, mainly because of the integrated water softener that is not found in most dishwashers in the US. However, it's difficult to find dishwasher salt in the stores here. Luckily, pool salt seems to be the same thing and works wonderfully. I got a 50 pound bag on sale for $5 that should take me a decade to use up.

Bosch dishwashers are nice when they work, extremely quiet. I've had to fix several of them though and they're kind of a pain to work on and at least the ones I worked on had some questionable designs. Most recently I fixed one my friend had, the pump failed and the problem turned out to be the face of the impeller sheared off the backing, I'd never seen that happen before. About a year later he replaced the whole thing because it started leaking somewhere else.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2020, 11:28:34 pm »
Contrary to Alec's (Technology Connections) comments on Bosch dishwashers, the system is far superior to American dishwashers, in my opinion!

Bosch machines use a filter to catch big waste, which means the biggest waste can be siphoned off and cleaned every 30 or so uses (~3 months) into the general waste.  This big waste is not macerated and recirculated within the machine, which clogs pipes and adds dirt to dishes being rinsed.  You should remove big waste from dishes before loading them; I think this is true of all dishwashers.  And while pre-rinsing is a waste of time (why people still do this baffles me),  you should make some effort to take the largest waste off the plates as the machines are not designed to remove these effectively.

The Bosch dishwashers (and many other European dishwashers) do support a cold pre-wash, by means of putting some detergent in the bottom of the tub.  However, there is probably no need.  The first thing the machine does is rinse the dishes with cold water.  This cold water rinse is used to remove initial dirt and contamination from the dishes and a turbidity sensor then measures how dirty this pre-rinse water is.  If it is dirtier, then the subsequent cycles are extended and the heat time is increased, which while not exactly the same as dosing the dishes with more detergent gives the detergent more time to work.  This is then followed by the hot rinse cycle where hot water is used to remove detergent from the plates, and as part of the drying cycle the plates are made to get as hot as practical with the cold, insulated stainless steel tub acting to dry the plates.  This is remarkably effective:  no second heating element is used (only the water heater) and, unlike systems with that heating element, there is no risk of melting plastic plates, utensils etc., as they are not directly exposed to the element,  but plates come out almost perfectly dry at least when the machine has been allowed to run overnight and is unloaded in the morning.

The machine is also very water-efficient, on its economy setting using only 6 litres of water in total, which is some 1/10th of what an average hand-washer uses.

I have never had any problem with the Finish tablets myself, and in the UK I can purchase 144 tablets (2x72pk) for about £12 including VAT, or around 9p/wash.  The dishwasher itself uses 1.4kWh of electricity on the 'Intensive 70C' setting which at standard rates is ~2x the tablet cost;  I however run the dishwasher whenever possible during my 5 hour off-peak period where electricity is 5.5p/kWh.

I have actually found poorer results from other tablets, but admittedly haven't tried powder detergents in this particular machine.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 11:32:25 pm by tom66 »
 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2020, 01:37:14 am »
Yeah you should not just put a plate in there straight after eating off it, at very least clear off the worst of it.  I'm one of those people that pre rinse but it's just faster and gets rid of the worst, and it won't smell while it sits in the machine as I may only run a cycle like once a week.

Though I was thinking it's probably not a bad idea to run a cycle near empty once in a while as the cycle will kind of act as a way to clean the machine itself, if there is any build up within the pipes.   You can buy special tablets for that, not sure if they are worthwhile to use or just a gimmick.   I have a fairly plain jane dishwasher and it's been a bit over 10 years and it's still going strong.
 

Online Halcyon

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2020, 05:30:47 am »
I have a saying: "dishwashers are not garbage disposals". However the lines are blurred in some countries where dishwashers seem to be built with impellers/blades to churn food.

Either way, if you have one of these machines, it still doesn't hurt to get the solid bits off first (don't be a lazy prick), that and with regular cleaning, it should last for many years.

I have a model that has a fine filter that traps food particles. I clean it about once per week (if not more often). It gets really gross if you leave it. I then run an actual dishwasher cleaner (or a cap-full of trisodium phosphate) while empty once a month to help clear any built up fats and oils in the plumbing.

Dishwasher's aren't magic. The waste doesn't just disappear. For the same reason, you wouldn't throw food or fats/oils straight down the sink. Eventually you, or someone downstream from you will have a major problem.
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2020, 06:59:39 am »
...
Why not load the whole door (it is mostly empty, no?) with a big tank of gel-type detergent?
I want one. I have automatic dosing on my laundry washer and it is perfect. Setup the milliliters based on your water hardness once, and just let it do it's job.
Refill your favorite liquid when it's empty. None of the "juicero" fear bottles people are afraid of.

Some vendor will come around and will start selling pre-wash capsules.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2020, 08:31:03 am »
I have a saying: "dishwashers are not garbage disposals". However the lines are blurred in some countries where dishwashers seem to be built with impellers/blades to churn food.

Either way, if you have one of these machines, it still doesn't hurt to get the solid bits off first (don't be a lazy prick), that and with regular cleaning, it should last for many years.

I have a model that has a fine filter that traps food particles. I clean it about once per week (if not more often). It gets really gross if you leave it. I then run an actual dishwasher cleaner (or a cap-full of trisodium phosphate) while empty once a month to help clear any built up fats and oils in the plumbing.

Dishwasher's aren't magic. The waste doesn't just disappear. For the same reason, you wouldn't throw food or fats/oils straight down the sink. Eventually you, or someone downstream from you will have a major problem.

Why shouldn't they be garbage disposals? Mine has blades that grind up bits of food and dispose of them, it doesn't work as well as the Insinkerator disposal in my kitchen sink, I wouldn't throw a plate in there that still had a bunch of food on it but I don't wash the dishes by hand before I put them in, I have a dishwasher precisely so that I don't have to wash by hand. It works very well, dirty dishes go in and they come out sparkling clean. It's far from the quietest dishwasher I've used but it works as well as any I've tried. Got it for free too when it was brand new, someone bought a house that had a brand new dishwasher and decided they wanted all stainless appliances back when that was all the rage. The dishwasher was white which is my preference anyway so I was happy to haul it away. That was around 12 years ago.

I put almost all of my food scraps straight into the sink, the disposal shreds them up and they end up with the solids in the sewage treatment plant. In a sense they do just go away, they decompose along with all the poop as microorganisms convert it back into nutrient rich soil.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 08:34:01 am by james_s »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2020, 10:50:38 am »
Though I was thinking it's probably not a bad idea to run a cycle near empty once in a while as the cycle will kind of act as a way to clean the machine itself, if there is any build up within the pipes.   You can buy special tablets for that, not sure if they are worthwhile to use or just a gimmick.   I have a fairly plain jane dishwasher and it's been a bit over 10 years and it's still going strong.
They make dishwasher maintenance cleaners specifically for that purpose. On modern dishwashers with heat exchangers, using this is critical to machine longevity.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2020, 10:57:12 am »
I like the Bosch brand also, mainly because of the integrated water softener that is not found in most dishwashers in the US. However, it's difficult to find dishwasher salt in the stores here. Luckily, pool salt seems to be the same thing and works wonderfully. I got a 50 pound bag on sale for $5 that should take me a decade to use up.

Bosch dishwashers are nice when they work, extremely quiet. I've had to fix several of them though and they're kind of a pain to work on and at least the ones I worked on had some questionable designs. Most recently I fixed one my friend had, the pump failed and the problem turned out to be the face of the impeller sheared off the backing, I'd never seen that happen before. About a year later he replaced the whole thing because it started leaking somewhere else.
Totally agree. I have a Bosch and the door no longer stays up. First time that broke, it was because the spring-and-cord assembly used cord molded into a plastic anchor which breaks. Replaced under warranty (which ended up being a separate fiasco). Years later, it broke again, but this time, because the pulley the cord wraps around snapped off — yup, it, too is anchored in plastic. Warranty expired, the repairman fixed it by driving a bolt through, since the “real” fix would involve replacing the entire plastic base of the machine, which would cost nearly as much in labor as the machine was worth. That fix failed a year or two later, and I’ve not bothered telling the apartment management, as it doesn’t bother me enough to want to deal with it.

Upshot is, while I fundamentally like the machine, I wouldn’t buy one, as they’ve simply cut too many corners.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2020, 11:01:12 am »
...
Why not load the whole door (it is mostly empty, no?) with a big tank of gel-type detergent?
I want one. I have automatic dosing on my laundry washer and it is perfect. Setup the milliliters based on your water hardness once, and just let it do it's job.
Refill your favorite liquid when it's empty. None of the "juicero" fear bottles people are afraid of.

Some vendor will come around and will start selling pre-wash capsules.
What’s weird is that Miele (I’m assuming yours is a Miele?) allows you to fill your own canisters on European models, while US models are indeed locked to their TwinDos “UltraPhase” detergents. Nothing stopping you from physically inserting a canister filled with something else, and you can tweak the amounts, but the firmware won’t let you select what it is. (If I had a European one, I’d simply have one dispenser with my everyday detergent and the other with fabric softener.)
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2020, 11:13:23 am »
I have a saying: "dishwashers are not garbage disposals". However the lines are blurred in some countries where dishwashers seem to be built with impellers/blades to churn food.

Either way, if you have one of these machines, it still doesn't hurt to get the solid bits off first (don't be a lazy prick), that and with regular cleaning, it should last for many years.

I have a model that has a fine filter that traps food particles. I clean it about once per week (if not more often). It gets really gross if you leave it. I then run an actual dishwasher cleaner (or a cap-full of trisodium phosphate) while empty once a month to help clear any built up fats and oils in the plumbing.

Dishwasher's aren't magic. The waste doesn't just disappear. For the same reason, you wouldn't throw food or fats/oils straight down the sink. Eventually you, or someone downstream from you will have a major problem.

Why shouldn't they be garbage disposals? Mine has blades that grind up bits of food and dispose of them, it doesn't work as well as the Insinkerator disposal in my kitchen sink, I wouldn't throw a plate in there that still had a bunch of food on it but I don't wash the dishes by hand before I put them in, I have a dishwasher precisely so that I don't have to wash by hand. It works very well, dirty dishes go in and they come out sparkling clean. It's far from the quietest dishwasher I've used but it works as well as any I've tried. Got it for free too when it was brand new, someone bought a house that had a brand new dishwasher and decided they wanted all stainless appliances back when that was all the rage. The dishwasher was white which is my preference anyway so I was happy to haul it away. That was around 12 years ago.

I put almost all of my food scraps straight into the sink, the disposal shreds them up and they end up with the solids in the sewage treatment plant. In a sense they do just go away, they decompose along with all the poop as microorganisms convert it back into nutrient rich soil.
Well one reason is that garbage disposals are insanity to begin with. It makes no sense to burden the sewage system with food scraps it was never intended to handle. It’s not that it can’t handle them at all, but it wasn’t designed for it. However, new wastewater treatment plants designed to produce and capture biogas actually benefit from garbage disposals, so the situation may change in the long run.

Nowhere outside of USA has significant use of garbage disposals. We may see this change due to the biogas aspect.


As for not handwashing before putting in the dishwasher, you’re absolutely correct on that. In fact, the glass etching so many people experience is in part due to the dishes being too clean. With no food left to dissolve, the detergent ends up attacking the glass. I do what the experts say: scrape but don’t rinse.

My stepdad used to literally scrub the dishes (albeit without soap) before putting them in the dishwasher. All the glasses looked like cotton candy. I eventually talked sense into him and my mom, and the new glasses still look fine years later.
 
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Offline Alex EisenhutTopic starter

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2020, 01:34:22 am »
Well, FWIW, I bought the cheapest powder detergent I could find, and it does seem to work better. And for some reason the rinse aid seems to work better too, finally no puddles in the bottom of cups.

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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2020, 02:08:29 am »
Useless information corner:-

German & Australian dishwashers have different operating programs.

A short term job I had a few years back consisted of opening up cartons, unscrewing a panel from the dryer, & reprogramming it for Oz.(they gave us a "magic box" that we plugged into an internal connector to do this).

Apparently, the factory stuffed up, so they paid for our time.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2020, 02:08:07 pm »
Very common. I guess it has to do with regulatory issues (like the EU's standardized "eco" cycles), and of course feature differentiation.

For example, my mom (here in Switzerland) and my best friend in USA both happened to buy Miele washing machines around the same time (so they're the same generation machines). Both washers have the TwinDos automatic dispensing system. Both machines will work using Miele's own detergent cartridges (a special system with detergent in "Phase 1", and peroxide bleach in "Phase 2", so it's not just ordinary detergent), while the European machine also supports using customer-fillable cartridges. The TwinDos hardware is identical, it's purely the software having a menu to let you program it (e.g. regular detergent in slot 1, softener in slot 2, or regular in 1, delicate in 2, etc., and letting you set how many ml to dispense.). Kinda irritating.
 

Offline Alex EisenhutTopic starter

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2020, 03:58:51 pm »
I wonder how long it takes for the capsules to dissolve? I mean when the powder detergent is dispensed it must dissolve almost instantly and starts washing. The pouches must take time to reach full strength and take away cleaning time from the cycle?
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Offline tom66

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2020, 10:09:21 pm »
A colleague of mine has a washing machine from Bosch with six cotton presets: the standard 30C, 40C, 60C, and 90C ones, then two ones with the 'eco tag' symbol next to them, 40C and 60C.

The 'eco tag' ones are the ones compliant with the EU standard and the machine will achieve its greatest efficiency in those modes, but one wonders how many customers really know the difference between those settings and just use the plain setting, thinking the tag means something 'bad'? (In some senses, their instinct may be correct, as the eco profile likely isn't as good as cleaning as other profiles...)
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2020, 10:27:58 pm »
So much trouble to wash a dish or two.  :-//
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Offline Alex EisenhutTopic starter

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Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2020, 10:35:29 pm »
So much trouble to wash a dish or two.  :-//

Well, this is the forum where people debate for months the best way to measure a signal or two...  :-DD
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