Author Topic: Ot: Dishwashers  (Read 14935 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13156
  • Country: ch
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2021, 05:24:58 pm »
That’s how my modern Bosch machine works: put stuff in, it comes out clean. The quality of a dishwasher’s results has little to do with whether it’s new or old, but whether it’s a good design or a bad one.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1154
  • Country: us
    • Enlighten Scientific LLC
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2021, 05:30:56 pm »
That’s how my modern Bosch machine works: put stuff in, it comes out clean. The quality of a dishwasher’s results has little to do with whether it’s new or old, but whether it’s a good design or a bad one.

Unfortunately, as with many consumer goods, there's a weak negative correlation.
 

Offline tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7334
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2021, 05:41:41 pm »
Crap dishwasher then.  Our Bosch is about 7 years old and, provided I'm not stupid enough to put tall utensils in the cutlery basket which blocks the upper spray arm from rotating, it's never done me wrong. Dishes come out perfectly clean.
 
The following users thanked this post: tooki

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13156
  • Country: ch
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2021, 06:33:13 pm »
That’s how my modern Bosch machine works: put stuff in, it comes out clean. The quality of a dishwasher’s results has little to do with whether it’s new or old, but whether it’s a good design or a bad one.

Unfortunately, as with many consumer goods, there's a weak negative correlation.
Perhaps, but I’m not entirely convinced that’s true. There’s a certain survivor bias, in that we remember the models that lasted forever, and not the ones that failed comparatively quickly. Not to mention that a lot of old products required frequent maintenance. Consider how TV repairmen used to be a thing, one whose services were needed often enough to get to know the guy. Over time, the reliability increased a lot, and combined with the ever-falling cost of manufacture, it became uneconomical to even perform repairs, so we don’t bother designing them with repairability in mind. (I don’t necessarily agree with that approach, but here we are.)

And of course, the other thing is that even if the durability of an appliance is less than in the past, so is the price. A good friend of mine bought his first washing machine to go in his new home back in 1980. He says it was the base model and cost either $300 or $400. (I forget which number at the moment.) Around 2005 he replaced the washer, and at that point you could buy a base model washer for $300. But if you account for inflation, that’s a huge difference in price: that’d be just $127 in 1980 dollars. When we are talking about the retail price being literally around 1/3, is it actually reasonable to expect there to be no compromises in the construction?
 

Offline Alex EisenhutTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3549
  • Country: ca
  • Place text here.
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2021, 08:53:27 pm »
The spinny water spouts turn in a circle. Why are the racks set on a rectangular grid?

Shouldn't the racks be shaped like this



All my cups should be facing inwards to get maximum spray, as well as the plates...

 :-//
Hoarder of 8-bit Commodore relics and 1960s Tektronix 500-series stuff. Unconventional interior decorator.
 
The following users thanked this post: tooki

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13156
  • Country: ch
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #80 on: January 19, 2021, 09:03:15 am »
The spinny water spouts turn in a circle. Why are the racks set on a rectangular grid?

Shouldn't the racks be shaped like this



All my cups should be facing inwards to get maximum spray, as well as the plates...

 :-//
Some early dishwashers were like that: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2963252/Pretty-pink-Inside-immaculate-Chicago-kitchen-frozen-time-abandoned-1962.html

My guess is that a) it doesn't allow as many dishes to be loaded, and b) perhaps makes it too easy for dishes to totally block each other?
 

Offline Alex EisenhutTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3549
  • Country: ca
  • Place text here.
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2021, 02:21:26 pm »
Hoarder of 8-bit Commodore relics and 1960s Tektronix 500-series stuff. Unconventional interior decorator.
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB

Offline JohnnyMalaria

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1154
  • Country: us
    • Enlighten Scientific LLC
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2021, 02:30:41 pm »
Honestly, given the capacity, I'd just do it all by hand (which would be much faster).
 
The following users thanked this post: madires

Online Ian.M

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13216
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2021, 02:37:42 pm »
 'Bob' might make a decent PCB board washer.  >:D
 
The following users thanked this post: Halcyon

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8274
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2021, 02:54:04 pm »
'Bob' might make a decent PCB board washer.  >:D

Absolutely! Hacking needless home appliances into lab equipment is fun and saves a lot of money, like upcycling a cheap mini oven into a reflow oven.
 

Offline SpecialK

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 214
  • Country: ca
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2021, 02:58:10 pm »
That Bob looks decent.  However, £349 is about $610 CAD for which I could get a decent full size machine. 

The bigger problem for North America is we only have 1875W available at the outlet unlike European's that have 3120W available.  Since you aren't getting water from the hot water faucet, you would need to heat that 3 or 4 litres from room temperature.
 

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13156
  • Country: ch
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2021, 03:13:01 pm »
'Bob' might make a decent PCB board washer.  >:D

Absolutely! Hacking needless home appliances into lab equipment is fun and saves a lot of money, like upcycling a cheap mini oven into a reflow oven.
What's interesting in that regard is the fact that its firmware lets you program your own cycles, so it would theoretically be trivial to turn it into a PCB washer!
 

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13156
  • Country: ch
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2021, 03:21:44 pm »
That Bob looks decent.  However, £349 is about $610 CAD for which I could get a decent full size machine. 
But of course that's not what it's competing against. It's not for people who have a kitchen that can accommodate a full-size dishwasher, it's for people who don't.

The bigger problem for North America is we only have 1875W available at the outlet unlike European's that have 3120W available.
The manual says its maximum power rating is 1000W, so this wouldn't be any kind of limitation, should they choose to add a 120V model.

Since it's only using a maximum of 4L per cycle in total, it means it's probably using a maximum of about 1 liter per phase, which wouldn't take terribly long to heat up at 1000W, especially since it won't be taking it all the way to boiling. 

Since you aren't getting water from the hot water faucet, you would need to heat that 3 or 4 litres from room temperature.
It does say that you can fill the tank with hot water (up to 60C), possibly it could be connected to hot water if one so desired.
 

Offline themadhippy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3264
  • Country: gb
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2021, 03:49:14 pm »
'Bob' might make a decent PCB board washer.  >:D

Absolutely! Hacking needless home appliances into lab equipment is fun and saves a lot of money, like upcycling a cheap mini oven into a reflow oven.
What's interesting in that regard is the fact that its firmware lets you program your own cycles, so it would theoretically be trivial to turn it into a PCB washer!

thers a uv option,so not only washing the boards but developing them to.Wonder if it can cope with etching fluid instead of water?
 

Offline Alex EisenhutTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3549
  • Country: ca
  • Place text here.
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2021, 07:22:04 pm »
My friend has one of these
https://www.danby.com/en-us/products/kitchen-en-us/ddw621wdb/

Pretty sure it's smaller, but it's been a while since I visited there, and I'm too lazy to rewatch the video for dimensions...
Hoarder of 8-bit Commodore relics and 1960s Tektronix 500-series stuff. Unconventional interior decorator.
 

Offline SpecialK

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 214
  • Country: ca
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #90 on: January 23, 2021, 09:53:43 pm »
My friend has one of these
https://www.danby.com/en-us/products/kitchen-en-us/ddw621wdb/

Pretty sure it's smaller, but it's been a while since I visited there, and I'm too lazy to rewatch the video for dimensions...

Was just browsing Amazon and Canadian Tire.  Those seem to be well regarded and only around $300 CDN.  Might need one for the garage or electronics bench ;)
 

Offline helius

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3688
  • Country: us
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2021, 12:52:54 am »
The bigger problem for North America is we only have 1875W available at the outlet unlike European's that have 3120W available.
The maximum load for an appliance on a non-dedicated circuit is 1500W.
 

Offline Nusa

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2418
  • Country: us
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2021, 03:16:18 am »
The bigger problem for North America is we only have 1875W available at the outlet unlike European's that have 3120W available.
The maximum load for an appliance on a non-dedicated circuit is 1500W.
That doesn't make SpecialK's statement incorrect for a 15A circuit.
Your number is a recommendation for a continuous load appliance (stuff that runs for hours at a time which should be treated as 125% of it's nominal value). However a dishwasher really isn't a continuous load appliance. Of course it's also true that you have to consider other appliances on the same circuit, especially things you can't avoid using like the refrigerator.

However, since we're talking about a kitchen appliance, it should be noted that kitchens tend to have 20A circuits in the US, at least for houses built in the last 60+ years.
 

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13156
  • Country: ch
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #93 on: January 24, 2021, 03:36:10 pm »
'Bob' might make a decent PCB board washer.  >:D

Absolutely! Hacking needless home appliances into lab equipment is fun and saves a lot of money, like upcycling a cheap mini oven into a reflow oven.
What's interesting in that regard is the fact that its firmware lets you program your own cycles, so it would theoretically be trivial to turn it into a PCB washer!

thers a uv option,so not only washing the boards but developing them to.Wonder if it can cope with etching fluid instead of water?
It’s a UV-C option, which is the wrong wavelength for board development, which apparently is optimized for 365-395nm typically. 
 

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8274
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #94 on: January 24, 2021, 03:57:39 pm »
You got strange ideas about making you own PCBs! ;) I use UV-A to transfer the PCB layout to the photoresist and sodium hydroxide for developing the photoresist afterwards.
 

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13156
  • Country: ch
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #95 on: January 24, 2021, 04:05:10 pm »
You got strange ideas about making you own PCBs! ;) I use UV-A to transfer the PCB layout to the photoresist and sodium hydroxide for developing the photoresist afterwards.
Please use the “quote” function so we know who you’re responding to... (I assume you’re not talking to me, since I did not suggest using it for PCB developing.)
 

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8274
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #96 on: January 24, 2021, 04:17:50 pm »
I meant you both, i.e. themadhippy and tooki.
 

Offline jmelson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2851
  • Country: us
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #97 on: January 24, 2021, 06:13:48 pm »


thers a uv option,so not only washing the boards but developing them to.Wonder if it can cope with etching fluid instead of water?
From bad experience, I can say there are FEW materials that can stand ferric chloride!  I built a spray etcher many years ago.  the etchant ate nylon screws that held the pump together, turned vinyl hoses into a gummy mess, and ate the magnetic coupling in the pump.  Not to mention, of course eating practically any metal except pure titanium.

Plexiglas (acrylic) was about the only thing it didn't seem to harm, whihc was what the bulk of the machine was made of.

Jon
 

Offline tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7334
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #98 on: January 24, 2021, 06:20:11 pm »
That Bob looks decent.  However, £349 is about $610 CAD for which I could get a decent full size machine. 

The bigger problem for North America is we only have 1875W available at the outlet unlike European's that have 3120W available.  Since you aren't getting water from the hot water faucet, you would need to heat that 3 or 4 litres from room temperature.

My Bosch dishwasher only has a 2100W heating element - that's not much more than the capacity of an American outlet.  It runs from cold water and gets to 70C.
Since the water is recycled through the machine there is little need for a powerful heating element - but a more powerful element will allow the dishwasher to get to temperature more quickly.

Regarding dish locations in a dishwasher, I read an interesting paper (only parts, this guy did his whole PhD thesis on dishwashers!) ...
https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/6590/9/PerezMohedano16EngD_sizereduced.pdf

Broadly speaking, it's better to load more heavily soiled dishes towards the middle of the machine.  I've been using this technique for some time.  It's not failed me yet.  The bottom rack also likely has slightly higher pressure, as the pump is not fighting gravity as much to get water up there, so I would expect the spray pressure to be a little better, so the most soiled items go on the bottom rack.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2021, 06:23:27 pm by tom66 »
 
The following users thanked this post: tooki

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13156
  • Country: ch
Re: Ot: Dishwashers
« Reply #99 on: January 24, 2021, 06:24:44 pm »
I meant you both, i.e. themadhippy and tooki.
|O Please explain, then, what “strange” ideas I have about PCB making, since I didn’t say anything about the topic other than the fact that UV-C isn’t appropriate for exposing resist.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf