OT: Help me identify the processor on this board...

[Mechatrommer]

how many "cores"? (thread broken and obsolete admin please delete)

[Baliszoft]

Looks like a dual core one 

[TerminalJack505]

Processor?  I don't see any processor in that picture.   

[SeanB]

What board.....................

I think those heatsinks are extruded and then cut to length, but the proper assembly take a few years to get them to the right volume and shape. I do know that maintenance on them to keep them in tip top shape though is very expensive, and you continuously get distracted by newer models appearing on the market.

[nitro2k01]

Haraam! Attached is a fixed version.

[free_electron]

Haraam! Attached is a fixed version.

Ooh, she's hot now !

[nitro2k01]

Haraam! Attached is a fixed version.

Ooh, she's hot now !

Yep. In the body temperature sense of the word. 

[MasterOfNone]

I’m sorry to tell you that details of that unit has been posted here before. You probably didn’t recognize the unit because the original post concentrated on the warning sticker on the bottom of another part of the unit.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/warning-don't-lick-the-psu/

..sorry about that (I’ll try to do better)

[4to20Milliamps]

I tried to have a closer look at the board, that's an interesting place to hold a cell phone.........

[NiHaoMike]

Dual channel DDR3 means it's reasonably recent, but the CPU appears to be some PGA instead of LGA. Must be some AMD CPU since Intel went LGA well before DDR3 was available.

If you want to see a model actually working with new hardware, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/user/TastyPCTV/videos .

[smashedProton]

It's an amd socked AM3 cpu.  The motherboard is most likely a GIGABYTE one.  It is probably a quad core in the 3.2 ghz range

[duskglow]

Sigh.  This is the only forum I've ever seen where a picture of a beautiful woman and a motherboard can be posted, and the woman isn't even *mentioned*.  Brings a tear to my eye.    

Waiting for the time someone posts a video of a woman using an, umm, "personal assistant", states that he went out and got a similar model, and proceeds to tear it down.

[smashedProton]

Dude....  keep the vibrator teardowns to your own channel

[duskglow]

Oh, it won't be me.  That ship already sailed.

[peter.mitchell]

http://www.embedded.com/electronics-blogs/break-points/4406810/Personal-astable-multivibrator-teardown

[SeanB]

Sigh.  This is the only forum I've ever seen where a picture of a beautiful woman and a motherboard can be posted, and the woman isn't even *mentioned*.  Brings a tear to my eye.    

Waiting for the time someone posts a video of a woman using an, umm, "personal assistant", states that he went out and got a similar model, and proceeds to tear it down.

They normally have a battery, a variable resistor and a cheap motor with an eccentric mass to provide the motion. More complex models have a second motor with a speed control connected to a gear box that provides either rotary or linear motion. Some have a on board COB controller with various preprogrammed speed changes and other patterns, often selectable by a few switches on the board. The motors used are the same style used in the coffee whisker on another thread.

[4to20Milliamps]

here's a schematic if anyone ever needs to repair one:

[smashedProton]

Woah, it has touch sensors.  Fancy!!!

[lemmegraphdat]

Optical illusion. If you look very carefully you can see a circuit board.

[GK]

Haraam! Attached is a fixed version.

On that theme:

http://theahafoundation.org/

Contrastingly makes this ridiculous cow look somewhat obsolete:

[nitro2k01]

But those girls seems to be actual students in an actual school lab, not just models. Plus, they're not scantily clothed. I'm almost inclined to say something like, here in the West, girls are free to attend any college courses they want. Close call. Good thing I didn't. That might be Islamophobic, racist, or any number of other things ending with -phobic or -ist.

[duskglow]

It does look posed, however.  "OK, now look like you're doing something with that doodad there.  Goood."

[nitro2k01]

they're not scantily clothed

define "scanty clothing". until you do (undisputedly), its a nonsense to me.

Ok, let me put it differently. The point of the first image is to cater to men who think with their dicks by putting the focus on the girl's breasts and generally making her look sexually attractive. The point of the second image is to show girls using technology, with no sexual innuendo, presumably to encourage girls to attend technical courses. I hope you can see this distinction between the two images without getting an undisputed, god-given, set-in-stone, never to be changed definition of scanty clothing.

[jmole]

welcome to the club Agilent...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151493525102654&set=a.199551522653.129244.199473897653&type=1&theater

full size this... https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1025540_10151493525102654_926799966_o.jpg
i dont have to ask that board i knew its an Arbooweno... i wonder when can i see Tiffany Yap of Intel in action

Unless that other board is a battery, that circuit's not gonna do much...

[nitro2k01]

Unless that other board is a battery, that circuit's not gonna do much...

There's a USB cable thrown to the side of the computer, though. Maybe they were testing power down characteristics of the circuit, or that's just the waveform that happened to stay on the screen when they unplugged it, assuming the picture was taken at the end of the session, assuming that's when they got the idea to snap the picture. I'd also assume that this an "open house" type session rather than an actual lesson, if the photo isn't completely stage. Maybe I'm stretching it, but it's not entirely implausible.

[c4757p]

In that case there'd be no reason to keep holding the probes (which have clips, by the way) to the circuit after it's powered down like a dingbat. Once the trace is captured it's captured. And nobody holds probes like that - that posture screams "I don't know how to use these". No, the simple answer is that it's powered down so the "models" don't short anything out.

[nitro2k01]

Yes, the photo is obviously staged. The question is exactly to which degree. My theory (without stretching it like above) is that the college had a course exhibition and that these girls were actually visiting the electronics lab. Then the photographer got the idea that they should pose for a picture.

[Tita]

Looks like a dual core one 

...but where is the cooler?

[nitro2k01]

Of course the definition of scanty clothing varies between cultures. What I was actually talking about was the intent of the person who made the respective picture.

[NiHaoMike]

i dont have to ask that board i knew its an Arbooweno... i wonder when can i see Tiffany Yap of Intel in action

Tiffany Yep currently works at Qualcomm.

That said, Intel does have some pretty amazing models.

In that case there'd be no reason to keep holding the probes (which have clips, by the way) to the circuit after it's powered down like a dingbat.

There very well could be a battery or supercap on the board. And you can't always just clip a probe on something. Out of curiosity, I decided to measure the phase to ground and neutral to ground voltages of a Delta fan. I was able to get to those points by peeling back the sticker, but there's no way to clip the probes. I ended up holding the two probes like a pair of chopsticks (while keeping clear of the spinning blades!) and operated the bench PSU and scope with my other hand.

[GK]

It's a physiological fact that there is only enough blood in the male body to supply one head at a time. Seriously, if I spend more than 30 seconds staring at that photo in the opening post I can feel myself getting cold from the shoulders up.

[LEECH666]

Soooooooooo ... where are all the guys that went all when the other "sexism" threads surfaced?

I can at least remember two one of those threads.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/women-in-science-sexism-doesn't-help-(eu-ad-campaign)/

Why is there no uproar here? I smell a bit of Hypocrisy?

[nitro2k01]

Why is there no uproar here? I smell a bit of Hypocrisy?

Maybe because when the EU is doing an ad campaign, on the surface for an agreeable anti-sexist cause no less, they are supposed to know better. This picture is just from some random Chinese motherboard reseller, and we can all just laugh at it from a distance.

[duskglow]

"Host nigga"?  When did that become appropriate?

I'm not sure I like the direction this thread is taking.

[c4757p]

I'm not sure I like the direction this thread is taking.

This thread is just the biweekly ridiculously off-topic "my mental filters are tired, I just want to shout out whatever comes to mind" thread. It's a tradition here.

I'll contribute: FROOT LOOPS!

[c4757p]

in there we see the "butt protector" and "no problem with the butt" clashed. and the host nigga said i aint see any butt until they mentioned it as for (1) i believe we need to ammend the "copyright law" to include our body as our own copyright, nobody can duplicate it in anyway without voluntary consent. go figure, what a perfect world!

Are you high?

[duskglow]

Ridiculously off topic is cool.  Lack of mental filters is cool.  Sexism and racism...well.  Whatever.  I don't want to be a killjoy, but I'm just saying my piece.

And froot loops are GOOD.

[c4757p]

Ridiculously off topic is cool.  Lack of mental filters is cool.  Sexism and racism...well.  Whatever.  I don't want to be a killjoy, but I'm just saying my piece.

No, I'm not trying to say it's OK. Lack of mental filters is only cool when the people doing it have interesting and funny things to say. I agree with you 100%. Just saying, don't be surprised, we get these all the time from people who borrowed the sieve from behind their mouth to strain their pasta.

[duskglow]

Pasta is good too.  I can certainly understand using whatever's available to sieve yummy, yummy pasta.

I'll shut up about it now... if moderators think it's OK, I guess it's ok.  I just don't feel right not speaking up.

[c4757p]

I'm really not the "mods, come kick this guy's ass" kind of person. (Though I will unleash all the demons of hell on spammers.) I'm more of a "dude, just shut up" person. So Mecha... just shut up

[duskglow]

I'm kind of in the middle, I'm a "Mods, you might want to tell this guy to shut up at some point" kinda person.   Especially because I'm kinda new here.  I feel a bit exposed just saying what I am.

Ah, well.  It's a love of electronics that binds us all together, not agreeing on everything.

[nitro2k01]

1) you can see but cant video. but its in public!? wtf.
2) you cant video because of "the butt". what?

I think they were asking to be respected, not reciting the law.

in there we see the "butt protector" and "no problem with the butt" clashed. and the host nigga said i aint see any butt until they mentioned it as for (1) i believe we need to ammend the "copyright law" to include our body as our own copyright, nobody can duplicate it in anyway without voluntary consent. go figure, what a perfect world!

Such laws exist in the US, called right of publicity. However, I much doubt a lawsuit would have any standing in a case like that. I think they would have to prove that this girl has a certain amount of fame and was performing, and that the guy filming was commercially exploiting the footage in order for it to go through. These laws are more applicable in cases where a person seems to endorse a product or similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_rights#United_States

Besides I think you like boobs and butts more than you care to admit, mech.

[Simon]

I Have reviewed the thread and added a note to Mechatromters post about the word "nigga". Having people from all over the world does cause some headache with this kind of discussion as you never know what is the norm in their country so i'll ignore this one but please people try to stay the right side of the line even if you must go right up to it !

[c4757p]

You are a good moderator.

[Simon]

Besides I think you like boobs and butts more than you care to admit, mech.

He does !  as do we all but he's not very good with innuendos 

[duskglow]

Innuendos are certainly a "trap for young players" sometimes.

[Simon]

Well we are still waiting for mechatromer to grow up

[Simon]

whats wrong with "nigga" the host (presenter) used the word too i believed it "was" unacceptable. but today? if black people have the right to use "nigga" so i believe me too. if not then they are not among us. fyi my skin color is not so far from them and you so i have no bad intention about it. i need a clarification about this from the "real nigga" not from a wannabe. gosh i believe that most people believe that only religious nuts are too sensitive about terminologies. back to topic everyone or should we derail to "languagism"?

last time i checked nigga is offensive. We live in a society of more than just double standards, black people (as we are supposed to call them in the UK although in south africa they will kill you for it and want to be called coloured but in the Uk kill you for being called coloured) may well call themselves nigga's and it's a sort of hit back at how they were considered and the racial differences of the past. If a black person calls himself a nigga that's fine, if a white one does there will be calls of racism it's like you give your oppressor a kicking by calling yourself what he calls you so the term is no longer offensive to you in his eyes and you "steal his thunder" but it's one of those touchy things where you will end up being wrong and it's best just not to use the word unless your a black person among black people and all able to see each other. Again it is also most likely a very localized thing, it is probably more acceptable in america than the UK, i'm sure would be an outcry if it was used in the UK, you can't even say wog anymore which i'm, pretty sure was once a term of distinction ! (westernized Oriental Gentleman)

[c4757p]

if black people have the right to use "nigga" so i believe me too.

I don't understand that argument. Of course different people can say different things. Example: My friends and I all insult the living shit out of each other, and that's OK because we understand it's in jest. But if somebody else just came up to me and said some of the things we say to each other, it'd take a lot of restraint not to punch him in the face. (OK, I'd probably crack up laughing, but I'm weird like that...) That's one of the stupidest "let me be racist!" arguments I've ever heard, and I've heard some real whoppers from my family...

[duskglow]

It's not acceptable in America at all.  Black people (this is a term used simply as a description) do call themselves that, the double standard is not lost on the rest of the population, but it's a word one just simply does not use in polite company.  Ever.  At all.  I have only ever used it when quoting "Blazing Saddles", and only then in company I know very, very well.

I do share the distaste for the double standard, but it is what it is, and on a professional, multicultural board such as this, I just simply don't see a place for it.  I know I, for one, am here because it's a professional environment.  Professional doesn't have to mean stuffy or no humor, but it does mean respectful.    I don't make the rules, but it's one guy's opinion.

[c4757p]

it's a word one just simply does not use in polite company.  Ever.  At all.

Its status definitely depends on the region. In some of the shadier areas around me, it's more like 'fuck' - no, you wouldn't say it in polite company, but in informal company it gets thrown around without care by all races, genders and ages. In other places it's the sort of thing that gets people shot.

[Simon]

the main problem is people from different parts of the world do not understand the suttleties. In the so called western world we make a hobby out of taking offence on behalf of a so called cultural minority when they were not offended at all. some have learnt to use this well and just go around permanently offended as we must have just said something they can construe as racist.

I took a first aid course and the instructor told us that a white person had called him racist on behalf of a black person undergoing training also because he pointed out that on his skin colour a lack of blood that we normally detect by evaluating someones skin as pale would not be possible on him and looking in his mouth (or that of any black patient0 would be a more reliable way of detecting a problem with lack of blood circultation. So he asked the black person if he was offended and he was not in the least, he was being given vital information on how to save his and others life and being sanctimonious in such a case will only get people killed.

They (the medical bodies) even went as far as saying that the anny dolls should be a certain percentage of black ones to represent the black proportion of the population, that was overturned as the doll is actually modeled on a specific real person who was the daughter of the doctor that designed the doll after his daughters death as he realized that it would be a valuable tool in first aid training and could have taught someone how to save his daughter. the face is also the real face of an "unclaimed" person who was drowned

[duskglow]

Its status definitely depends on the region. In some of the shadier areas around me, it's more like 'fuck' - no, you wouldn't say it in polite company, but in informal company it gets thrown around without care by all races, genders and ages. In other places it's the sort of thing that gets people shot.

True, but unless you know which area you're in and are known to not be a racist, you probably should assume the latter.

To be clear, I don't advocate shooting people over a word, but it does happen.  It's an extremely emotionally charged word that relates directly back to the times of slavery, which is a very dark stain on American history and still touches a raw nerve with many black people, a large number of which are directly descended from slaves.  Seen from that context, the raw nerve it touches is understandable, if a little anachronistic.

[c4757p]

the main problem is people from different parts of the world do not understand the suttleties. In the so called western world we make a hobby out of taking offence on behalf of a so called cultural minority when they were not offended at all. some have learnt to use this well and just go around permanently offended as we must have just said something they can construe as racist.

Racial (and gender, this happens for sexism too) chauvinism, plain and simple. They're weak and need my protection from offense. It's how racists maintain their racism while still appearing Holier Than Thou to both racists and idiot non-racists.

[duskglow]

Simon, I do hope I'm not coming off as overly offended.  I do see things from all angles, and I wish we lived in a world where mere words did not need to be proscribed.  I just think that for a professional board such as this, language needs to be relatively neutral, respectful, and inclusive.

[c4757p]

Simon, I do hope I'm not coming off as overly offended.

Au contraire, you seem quite reasonable, and unless my reading comprehension isn't what I think it is (quite likely true), nobody seems to think you're overly offended, just that some people are.

[Simon]

It's just an area where we will have incidents from time to time where people genuinely don't understand what they are saying and that it is offensive whilst not meant as such. As a collective we really are from every corner of the globe (you'd be amazed and how many have the internet now  ) so some will find themselves at odds with the more general norm and of course levels of English vary as does an understanding of some specifics.

"the word" is in the vast majority used in a derogatory manner and is deemed to be offensive and so we don't want to see it used on the board but i understand how the misunderstandings came about.

[SeanB]

We live in a society of more than just double standards, black people (as we are supposed to call them in the UK although in south africa they will kill you for it and want to be called coloured but in the Uk kill you for being called coloured)

Careful there Simon, here you have a whole lot more nuances. Here calling an African black person coloured will get you killed for sure, either by him or by the separate distinct coloured people. There are a whole lot of things about ancestry, relations and affiliations and such in the new Non Racial Democratic South Africa that are a minefield.

[Simon]

Well i heard a radio programme in which the black guest stated that he had to get used to the terminology in the Uk of Black as backs in south africa they prefered coloured and hated being called black. Of course you have to look at the specific place and the period in history that is being considered, yes it is a minefield, because you have the "three dimensional situation" of location AND time in history and people who are middle aged and up tend to stick to what they learnt was acceptable in their youth. Quite frankly i just get fed up because at the end of the day you can either be accused of not "recognizing their individuality/ethnic minority" or being racist for singling them out so i tend to take the view each to their own and if i say something that offends you maybe it's because your in the business of being offended so just get out of my way. we hear too much these days of people wanting "rUspect" which to me seems to mean I'll be offended as and when i please and you just have to get used to being in the wrong all of the time and apologizing. Personally I'd like to see a lot more Respect all around in every aspect of life !

[SeanB]

Try having a look at SA humour.....

http://madamandeve.co.za/
http://madamandeve.co.za/week_of_cartns.php


He is politically incorrect, and has been to court a few times, but always has won on the grounds of press freedom.

[Simon]

what was politically incorrect about any of that ? oh let me guess I need the localization.config file installed in my brain 

[duskglow]

I don't think we're confused, mechatrommer.

[duskglow]

Are you referencing a thread I'm not following?  Because to me, this is significantly out of context.

[Simon]

This is rather out of context. The rest of us are under the impression that muslim men make their women wear a veil. The veil in incompatible with western culture and way of life, why do women have to hide behind the veil. If i was fould driving whilst wearing something as vision limiting I'd have the book thrown at me, yet in the name of culture muslim women can drive in a veil.

you want to live in my country, then you adapt even just a little, we have to show respect in yours !

[Simon]

What constitutes a "human right" seems to be more dictated by selfish fanatism these days. We have ban's on wearing hoodies in shopping centres (policy of shopping centre and shops that own the private land) but in the name of religious rights we have to accept veils (or rather total body coverage). Around here crimes have been committed by people in muslim dress - not necessarily muslim and that is a fine line but the law should be equal for all.

[4to20Milliamps]

It seems strange to me that even in a place like this forum where no one really knows what color anyone else is, what their sexual orientation is, what their religious beliefs are.... etc, we still find ways to be derogatory and segregate.


Labels can be used lower some one or bring them up, but you very seldom see anyone using them to bring another person up.

and by the way, I'm not being persecutive of anyone just pointing out an observation.

[Simon]

Around here crimes have been committed by people in muslim dress - not necessarily muslim.

exactly another more important point. even if they are muslim in their ID, not necessarily they are in the true path. islam is divided into 73 schools iirc, only one is the true teaching, the "original recipe".

but the law should be equal for all.

agree, as most laymen have always mentioned. only i have problem with law made with lack of imagination, ie not considering all aspect, pros and cons etc. and most importantly law made to benefit some "kind" of people.

edit: and my piece of advice (even to myself)... dont 100% trust the media (laymen trust it 100%). that profitable organizations can lead you to think something that is not what it is. even whats taught in school, are you sure you are taught with the right thing? go figure use your senses. FWIW.

and in fact it was suspected that they were polish and not women!

[cyr]

we educate our women to tell them what is the proper dressing should be.

So women are property and not capable of coming to their own conclusions about what is "proper" dress?

I apologize if this is not at all what you meant, perhaps it's a language barrier thing...

exactly another more important point. even if they are muslim in their ID, not necessarily they are in the true path. islam is divided into 73 schools iirc, only one is the true teaching, the "original recipe".

Or, none of them are "the true teaching" which seems the most likely conclusion to any outside observer. The same of course applies to the countless variations of christianity, all claiming to be the One True Way(tm) teaching absolute truth straight from God and all contradicting each other. One would think the guy upstairs would come and straighten things out for us once and for all, but so far nothing...   

Instead most people continue believing whatever they are taught at an impressionable young age and hating everyone else's equally silly beliefs.   

[Simon]

Well now we know why the rest of of the middle east is in dissarray and we actually think we can help them

[Simon]

Trust me Shafri, men are very emotional in thinking, they may not display emotion but it drives them just the same, as we all know that men have two heads but only enough blood to run one at a time 

I am afraid that by our standards you live in a backward society that is heavily sexist. Although sometimes i fear over here we have gone overboard sometimes and both men and women should just stop the show down and calm down.

[c4757p]

So women are property and not capable of coming to their own conclusions about what is "proper" dress?

the thing is quite like this from what i understand so far... all human are properties, except men are more endowed with "matured thinking" not sure the right term, but kinda thinking that not involve "emotion" while making decision. so thats why we rely more to men to guide our women to follow the "one rule". that "one rule" men also need to adhere to. its like... you teach your kids about rule and regulation, you both old and young people must obey (your country's rule) but does that mean your kids is your property? i dont think so isnt it? its the same thing when i say men educate women. women act more toward emotion even if they have to break the law we all know that.

Screw cultural sensitivity, that's some sexist bullshit right there. Men are more logical than women my ass. Keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile, I'll be searching your post for the logic.

Stop hiding behind your culture/religion to justify your biases and prejudices. Last I checked, lobotomies at birth weren't part of your culture. You still hold sovereignty over the contents of your own mind.

[duskglow]

Is there a way to stop getting notifications for a thread?  I'm kind of growing tired of this one.  This is, in my opinion, starting to cross the line of offensive again.  I realize that there may be a language barrier, I realize that there may be a cultural barrier, but there are some things one should just keep to themselves on a professional board.

EDIT:  by "getting notifications", I mean showing up in the "new replies to your posts" thingy.

[Simon]

Click on the unsubscribe link in the next (this) notification email

[c4757p]

I gave up using that list - we have too much of a tendency to go off topic here, so I quite often find myself losing interest in threads I've commented on. I just hit "notify" on threads I want to hear about and cancel it when I've had enough.

And I'm out too, I'm getting a bit too grouchy for my own good. Sorry if I've pissed anyone off, I should know to keep things a bit more electronics-related here.

[SeanB]

Mecha, the offer to you to visit here is still open, it will be a good thing to see other points of view. Same for Simon, though there is a strong probability both of you will have culture shock after a while, along with either paranoia or a longing for home.

[Simon]

err i live in a so called modern society thank you although it has all gone to pot i think in the UK.

Shafri, your theory on men and women complementing each other is a religious and cultural excuse for the submission of women in the name of a higher cause or by design of a higher power and is just to let your religious leaders off the hook.

granted men and women are not the same but there is not such a divide that they can only do certain jobs, each excel in certain things yes and each have more of an interest in certain things but it does not mean that they have a preordained role.

It has in fact been pointed out that had we had more women in banking thinking rationally there would not have been the crisis because in effect the men in banking were thinking with their dicks (subconsciously to impress "their" women and have one over other men) which got us in the mess.

[SeanB]

Mecha, the offer to you to visit here is still open.

i'd love too thanks, but i've been limited by budget. if not i'll go everywhere even to Syria today (i heard rumours that the News is telling lies) only to know the truth is to be there by ourself

I hear they even have KFC delivered there, but that it takes a few hours to do the delivery......

[Simon]

Shafri, you need to understand that you have been shown and know only one way of life and that your society is indoctrinated to live in a certain way.

[Simon]

I am not indoctrinated by anyone, I observe my world and react accordingly.

Religions get left behind in progress because religion is run by people who know they need to keep past values to keep control of people and making people reject progress is a way of controlling them and making them feel like sinners that need help.

[smashedProton]

How could an incredibly smart Electrical Engineer be so kooky when it comes to religion?  I suppose we all have our quirks.

[Simon]

It's called brainwashing from birth. I was never indoctrinated and allowed to make my own mind up. God is an extra terrestrial anyway

[c4757p]

You two are just chasing each other's tails in a great big circle. At least it's entertaining...

[Simon]

well better we keep it in one thread.

[rolycat]

How could an incredibly smart Electrical Engineer be so kooky when it comes to religion?  I suppose we all have our quirks.

I don't think its a quirk; it's a necessary part of religious belief. All religions demand 'faith', which effectively means that you are not allowed to question the basic tenets of that religion. To do so is to fall into the clutches of Satan. Once you buy into that, it doesn't matter how intelligent you are.

[Simon]

Quite, religion relies on "conversion" or indoctrination from birth and the prime directive is to not question certain fundamentals on which the whole thing hinges which is why religion does not move with the times because that means changing the fundamentals and if you keep doing that you loose credibility.

Religion relies on making people feel bad about themselves, this is done by frowning on things that are not necessarily bad and also built into our nature like sex, the christian faiths these days have moderate success in underpinning people with guilt over sex and the muslim religion still uses it as a weapon of mass control and destruction (promising to you in death all that you craved and has been denied to you in life can be a powerful tool to a seriously oppressed person)

[Simon]

A doctrine is a religious framework, nothing to do with electronics or lawmaking.

Again you are just following a book without ever meeting the author. If a guy gives me a book he wrote out of his experience i'll believe it, if someone gives me a thousand year old text the author of whom is unknown and it's originality dubious i would doubt it.

our laws are made and perfected based on what is fair not on some age old book. And the only illogical laws are to protect the rich and those who have decided that just because they have their way of doing things they should have exemptions from the law. We often hear of people claiming that rights have been breached in not allowing something, while ignoring that by granting the rights they want they would be allowed to trample on others rights. that is not a right, that is a demand and holding a benign country to ransom.

[rolycat]

to make it easier let me make an analogy in term of ee.... in a company we have 20 years experienced engineer that is so good in circuit noise compliance, so he made a "bylaw book" stating in order to make a low noise circuit you should do this and that, cant do this and that. he wrote everything he know and gained from experience in the book. now there come a newbie engineer assigned to make low noise circuit, the old engineer slam the book on his desk and say, "follow this book!" and the young engineer questions "why? i dont believe it! i will make whatever circuit that i feel like that i think is right from what i learnt in U", the young engineer even question.. "prove it old chap! prove the book!" the old engineer speachless only to say "you need 20 years of experience to believe it". the reality is we dont have another 20 years of time redoing the same thing and errors for the young engineer to accomplish his job to equalize the quality as the old engineer's work. so by following the book, its a shortcut for the success, and if the young engineer implements whatever in the book fully, he will get fully compliance and high quality circuit. but before he do it, he will never be able to see the truth of the book.
 

Seriously flawed analogy, I'm afraid. You will never be a really good engineer unless you understand why a circuit works, rather than following a set of rules without questioning them.

Rules are useful, even essential, but should never be a substitute for critical thought.

As far as your religion is concerned, I am aware that nothing anyone can say will have any effect; not only have you been brainwashed since birth but even if you did begin to question it the penalty for apostasy in Islam is death, so you don't really have any alternative.

What I do find offensive are attempts to proselytize on secular media such as this forum, the "Mathematical proof of intelligent designer" being an annoying example.

[duskglow]

Interestingly enough, I have been on my own journey lately.  Since we've opened this can of worms, dumped it out, fed them to the fish, collected the fish crap, and shaped it into a worm-shaped mass, I'm going to relay a bit of it, because I think it's relevant.  Not that anyone cares, but still.

As I've mentioned, I started out in a vaguely Christian cult.  I will not go into details.  My journey has taken me from that, to mainstream Christianity, to agnosticism, to atheism, to spirituality, to a Christian-like belief system, but there was always a very specific conflict.  This conflict was how to deal with what I know to be true - a spirituality that I know exists, with what I have a very hard time accepting - the dogma of the Christian belief system.  Bear with me, here, I'm going somewhere extremely relevant.

This has begun to resolve itself over the past couple of days, this by listening to a lecturer named John Shelby Spong.  I won't go into the details of what he is teaching.  But what he has shown me is that the Bible is not what it appears to be, and those who take it literally are pretty much barking up the wrong tree.  For example, how many people know that the gospels were written forty to seventy years after the crucifixion, and that as that thirty years moves on, the stories get more and more fanciful?  That there likely was no such person as Judas Iscariot?  That there was likely no such thing as a virgin birth?  (I know the atheists here take this as a given, you're not really the target audience).  This doesn't affect my spirituality at all, but it gives me the ability to move forward while removing this conflict.  But it requires critical thinking and a certain openness to the idea that that which you have always been taught is wrong.  It's a very, very bitter pill to swallow, and it's one I've had to swallow repeatedly over my entire life (considering how many belief systems I've had, and I even left some out), but it must be done, or it's not possible to move forward.

So what I am hearing from people such as Simon is "evaluate your beliefs critically!"  And then from people such as mechatrommer, "no!".  This will never be resolved without a certain open-mindedness from all parties, an open-mindedness which will never show itself in this thread, or any other thread.  And it's taking away from energy which could be used to make some really awesome stuff.

My belief system now is focused on compassion.  There are many people out there I disagree with.  I disagree with atheists, with fundamentalist Christians, with Muslims, with all sorts of people out there who I know are 100% wrong, and there's nothing that will be done to change that opinion.  But just because one is 100% wrong, that doesn't mean that I hate or even dislike them.  I try to understand where they're coming from, why they believe what they do, what pressures made them that way in the first place, and then I try to accept that the influences that made them that way are very powerful and take a very long time to counter.  Wrong?  Yes, very.  But still worthy of respect, and I respect everyone here, even if I disagree fully with how they believe.  I do hope that the discussion here continues to be respectful.

Just my thoughts.

[4to20Milliamps]

Both science and religion are guilty of certain "crimes" both sides require you to be initiated through their own system, pay fees, and pass tests to be indoctrinated.

And neither side can provide positive proof of where this all comes from how it creates form from nothing, and where it all began.


To me the two sides are pretty much the same and both hide things to keep control.



http://books.google.com/books?id=OpwIAAAAIAAJ&dq=the%20sound%20that%20makes%20the%20universe&pg=PA56#v=onepage&q=the%20sound%20that%20makes%20the%20universe&f=false

[rolycat]

What I do find offensive are attempts to proselytize on secular media such as this forum, the "Mathematical proof of intelligent designer" being an annoying example.

well you havent noticed people putting their "politically correct" link in their signature? i consulted dave about this matter before putting such words, and from what i understand his words, its a freedom whatever you put in your signature. and i decorated the word carefully to be the least offensive. i dont think that is too "religious" since we all believe some part based on mathematical fact. it will be more insulting if i put "believe god because he is there! where? dont question it! he is just there!"

Any attempt to claim that 'intelligent design' is mathematically provable is an insult to science and rationality. The term is a cunning piece of propaganda which attempts to subvert genuine scientific inquiry, and I will always find that offensive. Frankly I would find a signature which simply stated your own religious beliefs far less objectionable.

This is not a personal attack -  I respect your knowledge of electronics and admire the generosity of your many contributions to this forum. Promoting "intelligent design" just pushes my mad button, I'm afraid.

[duskglow]

Any attempt to claim that 'intelligent design' is mathematically provable is an insult to science and rationality. The term is a cunning piece of propaganda which attempts to subvert genuine scientific inquiry, and I will always find that offensive. Frankly I would find a signature which simply stated your own religious beliefs far less objectionable.

This is not a personal attack -  I respect your knowledge of electronics and admire the generosity of your many contributions to this forum. Promoting "intelligent design" just pushes my mad button, I'm afraid.

I agree that intelligent design is not provable.  Period.  Full stop.  I don't try, I don't want to convince others, I think any attempt to do so is a complete waste of time.  For fun I might go to his "mathematical proof" (I haven't read it) and try to find the flawed assumption.  I would be astonished if there were not at least one fatal flaw.

But even all that as a given, I still believe it's probably true.

[smashedProton]

As usual, Richard Feynman has something on our topic.  His first statement is of particular relevance. 

[rolycat]

I agree that intelligent design is not provable.  Period.  Full stop.  I don't try, I don't want to convince others, I think any attempt to do so is a complete waste of time.  For fun I might go to his "mathematical proof" (I haven't read it) and try to find the flawed assumption.  I would be astonished if there were not at least one fatal flaw.

I can save you the trouble - I have read it, and it's garbage. The first two propositions of the 'mathematical proof' are that 1400 years ago the Koran correctly 'predicted' that the earth was spherical and that the light from the moon was reflected, and that the probability of this is 1/60.

Quite apart from the arbitrary assignment of probabilities, this conveniently ignores the fact that the Greeks had proved both that the earth was spherical and that the light from the moon was reflected from the sun almost a thousand years earlier, and this was well known by 600 CE.

The 'proof' gets even more ridiculous from there, and how an otherwise intelligent individual such as Mechatrommer can promote such tosh is completely beyond me.

But even all that as a given, I still believe it's probably true.

So Charles Darwin was a complete fruitbat, in your opinion? Well, you are a citizen of the nutty country that dreamed up intelligent design. I'm sticking with Charlie. 

[duskglow]

Oh, no.  I believe evolution is probably true.  I don't think Intelligent Design, and evolution, are mutually exclusive.  that's an AND gate, not XOR.    I think that whatever the intelligent designer is, it can certainly use evolution to accomplish its goals.

[rolycat]

Oh, no.  I believe evolution is probably true.  I don't think Intelligent Design, and evolution, are mutually exclusive.  that's an AND gate, not XOR.    I think that whatever the intelligent designer is, it can certainly use evolution to accomplish its goals.

That's great, then. Belief in a 'designer' who has no perceptible influence on the physical universe is pretty benign, since it doesn't compromise science.

However, this is not the "intelligent design" promulgated by the Discovery Institute in the USA, which is a thinly disguised vehicle for creationism. Nor is it Mecha's Islamic equivalent.

See - my button's been pressed again. 

[duskglow]

i dont think a forum is adequate for this kind of thing

One of the few things you've said that I entirely agree with.

[c4757p]

i will not go through the mathematical prove again. people accepting the theory of evolution through probability as not an insult they embrace it with happiness, but when it comes to religion, its an insult and all of the unacceptability and an offense

Dude, there's a big difference between why people accept evolution and that. That's just not how probability works. Let's say there are a thousand different given names in the world. (Obviously that's not the right number, but 30 isn't the right number of possible Earth shapes either...) When I wake up in the morning, I don't have a 1/1000 chance of guessing that my name is Chris, because I know that.

There were only realistically two choices for the shape of the earth, round and flat. Anybody who looks out their window and guesses that it's triangular needs to lay off the LSD. Guessing right out of 2 choices is not better than random. The chances are actually slightly better than 1/2, actually, because if you actually make the proper observations you can ascertain the shape of the earth. It's been done numerous times before we stuck a poor bastard in orbit to verify it. There's quite a history of navigation and astronomy in the Arab world, so I suspect someone was able to figure this out.

Anyone can see that the moon reflects light. The section that's illuminated always points towards the sun. Just because people didn't have as much technology back then doesn't mean they were morons who didn't notice or observe anything.

Considering that everybody needs to drink water and the human body is full of a vast amount of liquid, the conclusion that the human body is made of water is ridiculously obvious.

And the biggest failure of all is assuming that this means it can be right about anything else. If I roll a die six times and six times I roll a one, the chance of doing it again is still 1/6. Even better, I only see three die rolls in this whole damn thing.

Sorry, I said I'd step out, but as a former math student I couldn't let this retardation continue. That "proof" has more holes than a square mile of window screen.

[c4757p]

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

Any moron can see that there's one more logical answer: Somebody who knows more than you do.

[IanB]

If I roll a die six times and six times I roll a one, the chance of doing it again is still 1/6.

That's one place where I will have to disagree with you. If I roll a die six times and six times it comes up one, then I would think it highly probable that it will come up one on the seventh roll. I certainly wouldn't bet money on it being a fair die 

[c4757p]

Oh shut up. 

[duskglow]

Aaaand that's the conflict between mathematics and reality.    

[c4757p]

At the risk of sounding like I don't understand you're both joking.....

I just rolled a die three times. 3, 2, 5 - all prime numbers. Holy crap! That must mean I've got a special "prime number die"!

Wait... hold on... 3, 2, 2, 5, 4, 2, 3, 4.... holy shit! It IS a prime number die! That's a whole eleven samples and nine are prime! That's 82%! If it were truly random, it would be 50% (2, 3 and 5 are prime).

One minute here. Let me roll this Python die a few thousand times and see what happens.

Code: [Select]

x = [random.randint(1, 6) for i in range(5000)]
print sum (1 if i in (2, 3, 5) else 0 for i in x)
>>> 2506
print 2506. / 5000.
>>> 0.5012

Oh, no, looks like I just don't understand statistics.

See, Mecha? Probably doesn't work with three samples.

[duskglow]

I'm only partly joking.  Obviously the concept of a loaded die doesn't exist in statistics unless you are specifically calculating the probabilities of a loaded die.  That said, you're absolutely correct that a small sample size isn't enough to tell definitively that it's loaded.

If you roll the die a thousand times and get "seven" all the time, it's loaded.

[c4757p]

There's another important distinction to make: the difference between "I rolled all ones" and "I rolled a sequence I recognize". There are a lot of those. I truly did pick those numbers at random, by the way, the "prime number" thing I chose by looking at them and trying to see what they had in common - cherrypicking, as holy book critics such as myself tend to call it.

If you roll the die a thousand times and get "seven" all the time, it's loaded.

If you roll a die once and get seven, and you don't immediately throw it away, you deserve whatever happens to you.

[duskglow]

lol!  Good point.  I'm mentally lazy tonight.  I'm about to go take something apart because I don't feel like building anything.

[4to20Milliamps]

How many times will you be able to roll the dice and come up with the numbers that make a perfect flower to be formed?



http://books.google.com/books?id=jHZTAAAAMAAJ&dq=editions%3A6lGrYq5x27UC&pg=PA69#v=onepage&q&f=false

Matter.......without an outside influence, will do nothing, matter cannot create form by itself.

And all matter follows direct laws when forms are created,if it was random then why does it repeat the same pattern over and over?

Am I missing something about the concept of randomness???

[smashedProton]

The fault in his/the articles logic is not the combinatorics.  It is that he assigned a probability to the PREDICTIONS OF THE QAURAN.   WTF is a 1 in 30 chance for a round planed predicted by that book?   Did it have empirical proof that there are 30 different earths with 30 different laws of physics?   HELL NO!!   

As you can see the wacky/malicious part is carefully placed directly after the math section to make sure that your average person is not mentally alert. This is the only part that matters of paper, we all understand probability here (one would hope so) :

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

_______________

My wick is all burned out.  I'm not going to tolerate any of this shit.  Anyone who believes the paragraphs above is a complete dumbass and should have their voting rights taken away.  And if you are an engineer who blindly believes this, you are probably a terrible one.  You probably cheated your way through school because you can't think for yourself.  Or you are just book smart, and in that case you are a scuzzbag and still a bad engineer. 

[c4757p]

Am I missing something about the concept of randomness???

The classic one that everybody who tries to disprove evolution through probability misses, that a species' entire genome isn't written at once by random chance.

Take, for instance, the traditional sine wave oscillator circuit. (Well, "the".... yeah, there are many, but most behave basically the same way.) A transistor with feedback, selected such that feedback of the desired frequency is amplified more than that of other frequencies. At the beginning of oscillation, the signal is completely random noise picked up at the base, but the entire waveform most certainly is not. Bits of that initial random noise are selected for further amplification by the filter circuit, and bits that cannot make it through the filter don't. In this way, an entire, deterministic waveform that can continue forever is generated from a bit of random noise.

In this case the filter is common sense - basic survival. If it's fit to survive, it will. Duh.

That leaves just the transistor. Where'd that come from? The theory of evolution doesn't attempt to answer that question. It's outside the scope. There are conjectures that try to explain that, many of which seem plausible, at least to me, but none have reached the level of a scientific theory.

[c4757p]

My wick is all burned out.  I'm not going to tolerate any of this shit.  Anyone who believes the paragraphs above is a complete dumbass and should have their voting rights taken away.

Oh please don't say that, I was starting to like you...

[duskglow]

He's from Malaysia.  From my understanding, the voting rights there really don't matter much anyway.

[ftransform]

I am god. You will all bow down to me immediately.

[smashedProton]

He's from Malaysia.  From my understanding, the voting rights there really don't matter much anyway.

You're the best duskglow!   

Keep this forum politically incorrect.

[smashedProton]

I am god. You will all bow down to me immediately.

I will!  The Fourier transform is magic to me..

[c4757p]

I am god. You will all bow down to me immediately.

Oh damn, I had a very bawdy and inappropriate response to that, but then I suddenly remembered my forum manners. Don't you hate when you suddenly remember your manners?

[duskglow]

I know it may not seem like it, but I like politically incorrect. 

[ftransform]

I am god. You will all bow down to me immediately.

Oh damn, I had a very bawdy and inappropriate response to that, but then I suddenly remembered my forum manners. Don't you hate when you suddenly remember your manners?

You dare defy me?

[duskglow]

Well, we don't deify you, so...

[smashedProton]

Oh please don't say that, I was starting to like you...

You know what?  You're right.  I exercise my rights on a daily basis.  There aren't enough mean adjectives to explain someone who wishes to deny them to others.  No matter how high the pile of shit that they believe is.

[c4757p]

You dare defy me?

You can't tell me what to do! You're not my mother!

...AFAIK.

[c4757p]

You know what?  You're right.

Damn straight I am. I see we're finally getting to know each other.

[duskglow]

You know what?  You're right.

Damn straight I am. I see we're finally getting to know each other.

Oh, knowing you, I'm sure it'll balance out at some point.   

[c4757p]

Hey! That hurt my feelings!

[smashedProton]

Hey c4757p could I see your code for the probability program?  I'm learning python and would like to see how it is put together.

[duskglow]

Hey, look on the bright side, I'll probably be wrong more than both of you combined.

[c4757p]

Hey c4757p could I see your code for the probability program?  I'm learning python and would like to see how it is put together.

That's the whole thing. Just "import random".

Oh screw it, this thread's derailed already, and the evil side of me wants to keep it that way so the retarded shit is kept down. Here goes:

Dissecting the statements from inside out:
range(5000) --- makes a list of 5000 integers from 0 to 4999. (In Python 3, the entire list isn't actually created, it's simulated by an object that pretends to be a list, to save space.)

[f(i) for i in range(5000)] --- makes a new list that contains f(i) for every x in the existing list.

Here, f(i) is random.randint(1,6). It doesn't actually use i, but that doesn't matter. So we start with a list of 5000 who-cares-what-they-are, and then replace each one with a random integer from 1 to 6.

i in (2, 3, 5) --- simple - True if i is in the list, False otherwise.
1 if ... else 0 --- gives the first value if the Boolean is true, otherwise, gives the second.
1 if i in (2, 3, 5) else 0 --- replaces every prime number with a 1, and every other number with a 0
Then wrap it in sum() to count the primes.


With all this creation of lists and whatnot, it's probably nearly the least efficient way to do it, memory-wise, but 5000 elements is nothing for any computer, no matter how inefficient the program, so I erred on the side of short, simple code. Save efficiency for later, if you find out it's too slow.

Keep in mind that I've carelessly used the word "replace". Nothing here modifies any list in place, they're all either created new, or optimized out. (No list is actually created by the second statement.)

[duskglow]

This thread was derailed from the first post.

BTW...  just so it's clear, I am probably the biggest  er you'll see.  Generally, if I'm not talking about something specifically related to the topic (I'll never intentionally spread misinfo), just assume I'm completely full of it.

I say that in the possibility that

Hey! That hurt my feelings!

was sincere.

[c4757p]

Ha! No, my skin's even thicker than my skull, and my sarcasm more frequent than my sincerity. Also, I've been laughing my ass off for the past fifteen minutes. My feelings are just fine.

[duskglow]

I figured, but I try to make sure that's clear.  I hate misunderstandings, especially when they're easily avoided.

I have a bunch of diodes, do you think I should turn them into NEDs?

[c4757p]

Just to remind you people, we got to this point from boobs. Yes, boobs dangling over a motherboard. Dear lord people are weird.

A bunch of boobs arguing about boobs.

[duskglow]

People?  No, people are just fine.  Engineers are weird.  This would have turned out very, very differently on a hot rod forum. 

[c4757p]

I have a bunch of diodes, do you think I should turn them into NEDs?

Nothing-emitting diodes? Non-existent diodes? Went right over my head...

[duskglow]

http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/88q1/8972.html 

[c4757p]

The same technique works quite nicely to create an LED. Also, wet pants and bad language.

[duskglow]

Or a fourth of July firework.

(Insert any other nationalistic holiday for my non-American friends here.  Roo-exploding day for the Aussies.  Firework-explodes-YOU day in Russia.  We-finally-got-rid-of-the-colonies day in the UK) 

[c4757p]

Wait... so the Aussies just skip over July 4? What do they do - just adjust their count to 5 after the third, or get drunk and black out for 24 hours after the 3rd, or...

[duskglow]

I think their national hobby on July 4th is eye-rolling.  "Those crazy Yanks!"

[c4757p]

Firework-explodes-YOU day in Russia.

Judging from what I've seen of Russia on YouTube, that's a surprisingly apt Russian Reversal.

[duskglow]

Mechatrommer, I don't know if it's because English is not your first language, but I find what you just wrote to be somewhat incomprehensible.

I do find the quote of Einstein that you used to be interesting, though.  I actually agree with it.  Eckhart Tolle uses that quote liberally in his book "The Power of Now".  However, my belief system tends to be far more mystical.

[rolycat]

Or a fourth of July firework.

(Insert any other nationalistic holiday for my non-American friends here.  Roo-exploding day for the Aussies.  Firework-explodes-YOU day in Russia.  We-finally-got-rid-of-the-colonies day in the UK) 

Nah, we Brits have an exploding-stuff day too, but we have to wait until November before we pretend to blow up the Houses of Parliament. (That is what we do on the 5th isn't it, guys?).

(Guys - see what I did there?  )

[smashedProton]

[/quote]Damn straight I am. I see we're finally getting to know each other. [/quote][atheist cap on] i still struggling try to accept your existence. until i see you face to face, i dont believe you exist! [/atheist cap off ... quickly]
[/quote]

I believe in his existence because of the probability method.  The probability of the the planets alignment multiplied to the probability of a member on this forum being a woman clearly states that there are no fake accounts on this forum.

[nitro2k01]

people generally are heavily mislead to think that "religion" is the culprit and the cause of destruction, but no... it actually "power" "lust" "wealth and richness" that cause all these madness. the people in power they put in media and blame on religion, they hire terrorists to wear religion dress etc, they are very good at making plot and libel, fighting between us down below here religious and unreligious guys is exactly what they want to see as their entertainment while they collecting power and richness you give power to an atheist the world will be detroyed, history proved its not religion or atheism, its the "power" they hold, the power to control and pay medias, the power to be above the law, the power to kill, destroy, infiltrate and the power to hide it and get away

Of course in the end it's up to some people's hunger for power. It just so happens that it's easier to convince sheep that have been taught from young age to believe things on faith. It's easy for people in power to exploit that to gain support. That is the negative role that religion is playing.

people accepting the theory of evolution through probability as not an insult they embrace it with happiness, but when it comes to religion, its an insult and all of the unacceptability and an offense, its the superphobia for them.

There's a crucial difference. Evolution has come about by looking at evidence and trying to reach a conclusion. People trying to prove religion by using "science and mathematics" are starting with the conclusion and try to find evidence.
Oh, and apart from that, those "science and mathematics" arguments are typically complete bullshit, but never mind that.

[smashedProton]

Lets go back to talking about boobies

[c4757p]

BOOBIES!

[duskglow]

Aww ya beat me to it!

[c4757p]

Would you believe me if I said that whenever I hear the word "boobies", that truly is the first thing I think of?

[duskglow]

Not a chance in hell.

[c4757p]

Ha. Didn't think so.

[4to20Milliamps]

 

[GeoffS]

Would you believe me if I said that whenever I hear the word "boobies", that truly is the first thing I think of?

Yes I do. It's because you're not an immature adolescent  .

[duskglow]

Not a chance in hell.

Yes I do. It's because you're not an immature adolescent  .

Hey!  I'm just a guy!  I like headlights gazongas funbags racks mammaries boobies, and I'm not ashamed of it.

[smashedProton]

Headlights...  I never heard that one before!

[SeanB]

Headlights...  I never heard that one before!

You have led a sheltered life............. 

[c4757p]

Yes I do. It's because you're not an immature adolescent  .

You wanna bet?

[duskglow]

My favorite is "sweater puppies"* ... can't believe I forgot that one.

* yes, I respect women as people.  My hormones, however, have their own ideas.