OT: The religion thead...

[EEVblog]

I am afraid you are being trolled.

I'm very aware of that, and it's rather humorous to watch trolls play.

Iamwhoiam has destroyed any credibility he has on this forum, everyone will now just see him as a complete nutter.
I won't be engaging him further, the novelty has worn off for me personally. I suggest others now do the same.
Those who want to continue to debate religion, by all means do so, and that's why I like to keep the thread open. Better to have one thread to trap it all than have it sporadically appear on the forum, as it will inevitably do on any forum.

Dave.

[_Sin]

Reasonable if "air of reality" is good enough for rigorous scientific work.

You keep using that phrase. I've no idea what you mean by it, other than you still think there is some level of uncertainty involved.

Let me give you some idea of the kind of "uncertainty" scientists allow. Where possible a successful experiment needs to be weighed up against the odds that it happened at random. This is done with rigorous statistic analysis of the results, and the chances of the results being incorrect are calculated using the standard deviation, or sigma value.

The level of 'certainty' required before scientists accept a result as being correct is typically around 5-sigma. That means they've ruled out an incorrect result down to odds of 1 in almost 2 million.

Even half a percent chance that something is wrong would be far too much for science to consider it 'true'. Science needs a lot more certainty than that.

So when you say science just has an "air of reality", do you mean it is "99.99994% likely"? That leaves 0.00006% for "some other reason", which would I suppose include the supernatural - though it includes *all* possible supernatural causes, as well as any other natural cause, so the odds on your particular god have to be considerably lower...

Is that what you mean?

[Mechatrommer]

Dave,
I am afraid you are being trolled. In my humble opinion, it is best to let this one go. You cannot defeat irrationality with rationality. The unreasonable are immune to reason.

you got it backward at your first statement. but the later are true

Well I watched the forst part of that video, and it was 40 minutes of nonsense woowoo circular argument. Another waste of time

thats why i look at the person who post it. if its worthy, then its worthy my internet bandwidth.

[PeteInTexas]

I'm sorry Pete, but the only thing any god could possibly had a hand in evolution is to start the whole process.

Some data, FWIW: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/05/americans-believe-in-creationism_n_1571127.html





Apparently attitudes and beliefs have not shifted much in the last few years as it has not in the last few pages of this thread.

[_Sin]

Not sure what that proves, other than just how much insanity religion has to answer for. It's not like the number of people who believe something makes any difference as to whether it's true or not.

What's even more damning about it, is that not only are there a lot of people who don't accept evolution, a great number actually think everything happened within the last 10,000 years. Wow. Just, wow. That's an impressive level of denial considering just how much we know about the history of the world and the cosmos in general.

Of course you missed a graph:



So there's hope! An education gives people knowledge, and the ability to think things through, and look what happens when they do... If only there wasn't so much indoctrination and social pressure to 'believe' in such utter nonsense, the numbers would be a lot better.

[IanB]

This is really strong evidence that God did not create humans. If people were truly designed by an intelligent creator, how do we explain such a great weakness in their critical thinking skills?

[_Sin]

I find the idea that humans were 'created' less than 10,000 years ago particularly laughable. The town where I live has had settlements on it for at least 12,000 years. The residents must have been quite surprised at the sudden appearance of people.

[EEVblog]

Thanks Dave, appreciate your kindness. Love you man
Again, your views don't phase me; God has made people think... even you.

IamwhoIam, you are just polluting this thread with the same repetitive message, please take it somewhere else.

Dave.

[A Hellene]

"We are honest. Honestly!"
--The Priesthood

[Hugoneus]

iamwhoiam,

How would the non-existence of god manifest itself in the real world? I am not suggesting whether god exists or not, I am simply asking how a universe without god would look like?

It is not sufficient to say "look around you, evidence for god is everywhere". When I look around I see beautiful, elegant and painstakingly discovered scientific explanations for how things are. So, what evidence (hypothetically) would you need to change your mind about god's existence?

[IanB]

I've not ONCE said anything aggressive or vindictive

Oh? How about this ugly piece of bigotry?

Do you not see how wonderful we are? If you think you are but a plant - an organism formed from coincidental collision and formation of biological organisms, then why do we consider respect, understanding and love SO important, if we are but a heap of cells? Morality is an illusion to you, if you believe we are without God, as your morality is based on nothing but your relativity to another, who's morality is also relative to another, up and up the family tree... abstracted as far back as to be totally unprovable, due to the "billions of years" theories, convenient eh!

If you consider yourself to be primordial soup, I am entitled to come and strike you down, as a lumberjack fells a tree, and noone has ANY say so in whether what I did was right or wrong, as morality is a concept that we've all learned from one another, but since not one of us is lord over all of us, not one of us may be the source of truth, ergo your morality is different to mine, since we ALL have differing opinions and ideas - not one of us has the right to definitively COMMAND that his interpretation is overall morality, and so I may kill anyone I wish, as they are a disposable heap of vegetation, and not one single person may object - my morality is my own perception, and yours is yours, and I may live according to my understanding of truth, not yours.

Without truth we are nothing- without God, no truth can be.

You deny the possibility that there can be knowledge of right and wrong, an understanding of compassion, present in humans. You write off the whole of humanity as without value, without worth, and yet somehow you consider that is not insulting? You think that is any different from the way slaves and black people and minorities have been treated by others throughout history? As less than human, without worth? And yet you think you are kind and loving?

Have you ever considered the possibility that lying and stealing and killing is wrong because it is wrong? That we know it's wrong because it is part of being human?

You think you are "witnessing", yet you present an ugly face that can only make people turn away from you in disgust.

[A Hellene]

We are honest. Honestly!
--Religious books authors

What one cannot refute, one will insult. You feel threatened, but why? (rhetorical question).

Sigh.. Yet another personal attack instead of a rational argument...

I cannot really understand why the people who are unable to carry out a rational debate seem to prefer the ad hominem reasoning (the tactic of attacking the messenger) instead of using any form of reasonable argumentation or rational reasoning; or even showing a bit of creativity by using some other logical fallacy that does not insult the other party so blatantly (with the exception, of course, of the ad-nauseum repetition fallacy)...

My fellow people, please try to understand that respect can only be earned; it cannot be donated, given, purchased or acquired.


-George

[Rufus]

he isn't "angry" because you don't believe, but loving arms await, the day he finds you, of that I am sure

A common feature of all Gods. Full of threats of fire and brimstone for disbelievers but boundless forgiveness for any who choose to believe. By design of course because Gods only exist in the mind of believers and a successful God will never under any circumstances turn down the offer of an extra mind to exist in.

Direct your anger to God - not man. All truth lays in God.

How can we direct anything to something which doesn't exist?

[A Hellene]

In what world could what I said EVER be seen as "a personal attack"? Sorry, but that's just plain ridiculous!

Direct your anger to God - not man. All truth lays in God.

Whenever your answer or your argument is directed to the messenger instead of the message, you are performing the ad hominem reasoning logical fallacy.

For example, by telling me to direct my anger to god you are presuming that I am angry: Once more, your argument is directed to my person and not to my message; and this is the definition of the ad-hominem logical fallacy.

The second part of your argument ("All truth lays in God") is a textbook example of the ad-nauseum repetition logical fallacy, since it is repeated to the point of making one sick.

By the way, I am not angry at all! I am just frustrated by the power of dogmatism...


-George

[Rufus]

Here's an idea: I am not the source of your answers, but I can suggest that you join a Christian forum or Google+ hangout, and discuss it with them

Where you you will get a dose of Argumentum ad Populum.

[A Hellene]

Okay, I mis-understood that as anger (I must be forgiven for that - lots of it here, strangely).

I am not offended! Actually, I cannot be offended because I have chosen not to, for practical reasons: I cannot afford it!

Here's an idea: I am not the source of your answers, but I can suggest that you join a Christian forum or Google+ hangout, and discuss it with them, as you obviously don't like my answers (sorry mate).

Please, do never underestimate yourself. I realise you have been told that you were born sick with an undetectable illness, called The Original Sin, that only they can cure; and that you are unimportant; that you are nothing... Well, is it so difficult for you to deduce that whoever told you such monstrosities does not want you to be thinking nor to be taking actions on your own, in order for them to be in total control of you?

It is not true that I do not like your answers, as you wrote, because these "answers" are not yours, actually! You have just adapted and circulating these two thousand years old dogmatic positions because, somehow, you let them convince you that they are true. Even if, somewhere deep inside of you, you know perfectly well that they are not.

As for me, I was raised an Orthodox Christian; but I became fully recovered from this mental condition, by just using critical thinking. I have absolutely no intention of returning back to that mental prison, again. If you try and succeed to break free, you will never feel the need to return back to bondage again.

God is truth, and until you see that in your heart, this confusion will see no end. That's the truth, as God cannot lie, and I believe him - you don't. I can't help any further.

Actually, truth is anything verifiable, which is something that god is not. Even their own dogma admits that god cannot be seen or verified! Do not confuse feelings with reality; after all, all the deceiving techniques have the common denominator of targeting the sentimental world of the victims and not their reasoning.

Please, take a minute to ask yourself why almost all the deceptions are always targeting the sentiment (the belief system) instead of the reason.


-George

[Lightages]

To all responding to the troll:

Please remember who you are arguing with, a troll. By his own admission he will not be swayed by any evidence, argument or proof. His sole intent here is to spread "the word" and each opportunity you give him the more he gets to repeat his insanity. Arguing with him/her is a futile exercise and just goes against the wishes of Dave that he goes away with his woowoo crap.

I am happy to discuss anything with anyone who actually wants to have a discourse. Anyone who repeats the same old tired shit over and over gain and doesn't even respond to direct questions is a waste of time, and is a waste of Dave's resources.

This is Dave's dominion, please respect his wishes and stop provoking his response. I wanted to play more but in deference to Dave's wishes I am not going to respond to anything the troll says anymore.

[A Hellene]

ok 

Why justify yourself to me; a stranger? Such need is not recipcrocated. Your thoughts are of a fool, I can't force you.

Me, justifying myself to you?
My thoughts are of a fool?

Have you not learned yet to respect your interlocutors, by not attacking them, using ad-hominem fallacies?

Please, stop exposing yourself...
This attitude of yours will never help you in the real world; and, I am afraid that, this will the only world you will ever have the opportunity to really live in...


-George

[EEVblog]

Please remember who you are arguing with, a troll. By his own admission he will not be swayed by any evidence, argument or proof. His sole intent here is to spread "the word" and each opportunity you give him the more he gets to repeat his insanity. Arguing with him/her is a futile exercise and just goes against the wishes of Dave that he goes away with his woowoo crap.

Yes, and that is the issue here.
IMO IamwhoIam is adding nothing at all intelligent to this thread and does not engage in conversation or proper debate. It's just spewing forth nonsensical garbage, almost like a response bot. In doing so I think he has ruined it for everyone.
Since I can't ban people from threads, and he won't seem to go away, my choices are:
1) Close the thread, so no one can discuss any more.
2) Or ban him completely from the forum.

I don't like either option, but feel I must do one...

Dave.

[Lightages]

IMHO, don't ban him. He is mainly responding to those who are feeding the troll. If you ban him, then you might also consider me as being a candidate for helping perpetuate the noise.

His other posts outside of this messy thread are within normal and constructive interaction.....

If I have a vote, I say give it some time and another chance.

[A Hellene]

Dave, I agree wth Les.

On a second thought, is not, locking/closing/removing/deleting the thread, exactly what has iamwhoiam repeatedly asked for?
Repeatedly, as in: #1 (lock), #2 (lock), #3 (close), #4 (remove/lock), #5 (lock), #6 (close), #7 (lock/delete) and #8 (close), if I have not missed any other similar request...


-George

[EEVblog]

Dave, I agree wth Les.

On a second thought, is not, locking/closing/removing/deleting the thread, exactly what has iamwhoiam repeatedly asked for?
Repeatedly, as in: #1 (lock), #2 (lock), #3 (close), #4 (remove/lock), #5 (lock), #6 (close), #7 (lock/delete) and #8 (close), if I have not missed any other similar request...

Of course he'd love that, so that he can show it as proof that I supposedly can't handle opposing talk on religion.

Dave.

[Mechatrommer]

Since I can't ban people from threads, and he won't seem to go away, my choices are:
1) Close the thread, so no one can discuss any more.
2) Or ban him completely from the forum.
I don't like either option, but feel I must do one...
Dave.

3)warn him to stop the troll. if he refuse, then ban (but we'll miss good scientific info from him later on)
4)dont feed the troll at all and discuss with someone else worthy
by doing (4) i believe this thread will die in peace by the law of "natural selection"
since this thread will deduce to 1 to many combat. but that the one is with his "supershield" and "supertroll"... invinsible!

[_Sin]

I suggest doing nothing at all, and just ignoring him. He's not adding anything, no point in responding. He's pretty much become a self parody.

[MrPlacid]

Of course he'd love that, so that he can show it as proof that I supposedly can't handle opposing talk on religion.
Dave.

Naahh... I think he wanted to end the humiliation.

Dave, you can always lock and pin it to the front like a head on a stick. It could be used as a warning to any God fearing men that a similar fate awaits them if they try throwing around their holy books.