Author Topic: OT: The religion thead...  (Read 250675 times)

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Online IanB

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #275 on: May 20, 2012, 08:19:49 pm »
I've just had a thought. If there is a god why does he/she rely on communicating in such an indirect way as the bible.
The passage quoted is very difficult to understand and will never win a plain english award.

Of course that passage was crafted that way by humans using the contemporary language of early 17th century England. It was plain English for its time, but we don't speak that way anymore so it is not easy to follow today. It is really a bad idea to use it for learning in fact, because usage of the English language has changed and so have the meanings of many words. If you are not a scholar you can easily fail to understand what the translators were intending to convey. The original text of that passage was written in Greek, using the contemporary Greek of a time long ago. That is another challenge for translators, since they were not alive at the time and must work hard to understand the contemporary Greek usage of that era.

Many more modern translations exist, such as this one:

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, ‘Where is this “coming” he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 08:23:10 pm by IanB »
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #276 on: May 20, 2012, 08:38:25 pm »
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If not, how can I be sure that my wife/mother/daughter/grand-ma don't ended up as those 72 virgins team for other males ?
i'm told, the virgins are angel, not human from earth. so dont worry, your wife will be your queen. and god can easily duplicate/clone anybody He want to. and if your wife wish to have 72 male virgins (99 actually), wont you let her? you already got 99 angles? and semen/sperm is not, its changed with gaseous elements which will not impregnate. and rejuvenation is infinite, both to women and men, so do you really care? you are... super... there ;)

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Cause you know your self on earth, muslim females are treated like dirt compared to muslim males
a bollock of the decade. (but isolated cases did happen... human error or gossip/conspiracy), the real teaching is not like that.

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Was the founding father of Islam not a very nice chap by the name of Mohamed, whose favorite past time if I am not mistaken was invading all the surrounding territories and lopping of the heads of all who would not total  acquiescence to his way of thinking from.
this one deserve as a bollock of the century. seriously, where did you guys get these kind of shite infos? religious talked with faith. atheism/agnostics talked with facts. where's your facts?
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Offline Lightages

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #277 on: May 20, 2012, 09:22:46 pm »
God uses all his creation to speak to us... and he uses circumstances and blessings, even financial blessings. It would be foolish to underestimate a God of everything.

OK. I am, in your solid belief, one of your god's creations. As such I am speaking for him, correct?

I am telling you that your belief is a delusion and you should stop believing in fantasies (ie. deities and gods). I am not lying. I am not trying to harm you. I am telling you to make your life better and as another human who wants the world to be a better place.

So, now either you believe your own statement and need to now believe me, or you don't believe your own statement and you need to now believe me.

I know I am arguing logic against  a totally illogical concept, but I guess I like banging my head against the wall.
 

Offline odessa

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #278 on: May 20, 2012, 09:25:04 pm »
I've just had a thought. If there is a god why does he/she rely on communicating in such an indirect way as the bible.
The passage quoted is very difficult to understand and will never win a plain english award. Surely an omnipotent being will be far more direct and immediate in their communications. Why doesn't god use Twitter? Or the TV or even this forum?
God, if youre reading this thread show yourself.

God uses all his creation to speak to us... and he uses circumstances and blessings, even financial blessings. It would be foolish to underestimate a God of everything.

Really ? Financial blessings ? What scripture supports that statement ?  If you mean doing some 'lilly considering' or 'sparrow considering' , try telling that to the millions of people starving in the world. I don't see them being helped by God do you ?
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Offline A Hellene

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #279 on: May 20, 2012, 09:36:32 pm »
So, let me see if I got that right:
It is "written" that a promised imaginary life (the afterlife) is by far a better place for anyone to be, than real life.

I am sorry but this reminds me of Arnold Zweig (a German writer and anti-war activist) recounting that during the First World War, when the disabled and the amputees were counted in millions, there was such an advertisement for the perfection of artificial wooden legs (mostly) that would inspire you to cut your own foot to enjoy such a sample of technical perfection.

That is pure marketing, in my opinion.

My point is that we already have a real life (a healthy leg) on this planet; why wait to die (to have the healthy leg amputated) in order to enjoy afterlife (to enjoy the "perfect" wooden prosthetic)?


Now, speaking of amputees:
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No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincere they are, no matter how much they believe, no matter how deserving the amputee, what we know is that prayers do not inspire God to regenerate amputated legs. This happens despite what Jesus promises us in Matthew 21:21, John 14:14, Mark 11:24, etc.

Source: www.WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com


-George
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 09:39:47 pm by A Hellene »
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Offline Kremmen

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #280 on: May 20, 2012, 09:41:42 pm »

And yes, atheism is a religion.  It requires believing that god does not exist.  Since we cannot prove the non-existence of god (or existence of god, for that matter), atheism requires faith. 
If atheism is just a form of religion then by the same logic health is just a form of illness.

The opposite of faith is not faith in the opposite. But this usually is too difficult a concept for those who can only rationalize using 2-valued logic.

Regarding proving, one way or the other - the party making a claim has the burden of proof. Religions make the claim for existence of god so theirs is the burden. Just making the atheist counter argument does not create a new burden of proof; refusal to take claims at face value is just requiring proof of the original claim. I mean, to accept the existence of God practically guarantees that the existence of say Thor is then denied. Does it follow from this that the god-believer is responsible for proving the nonexistence of Thor? Didn't think so.

Also just for argument's sale, proof of nonexistence is conceptually different from proof of existence. The latter needs just one instance to be demonstrated, while the former usually requires exhaustive search. This has traditionally been the logic behind the 'god of the gaps' argument; god is always where our knowledge does not (yet) reach.
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Offline djsb

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #281 on: May 20, 2012, 09:53:11 pm »
This thread has piqued my interest and I might revisit my reading of Carl Jungs work because I'm still looking for answers like everyone else. My experience of religion as a lapsed baptised Christian (as in I don't attend church anymore) is as a comfort at times of personal crisis. Religion can be a comfort and offer guidance when in times of trouble and therefore serves a useful psychological and social function. But that is only if people are allowed to find this comfort for themselves. I gave up on organised religion in my teens. I took the best bits from the bible (stuff that made sense and could offer real guidance in everyday life) and didn't bother reading the rest. I started reading Carl Jung  and Freud and then Books by Alan Watts.
I still havent made my mind up about God. I'm certain there isn't a bloke somewhere with a grey beard passing Judgement or righting all wrongs (or causing them).
My world view these days is more experimental and I like to read about Buddhism and Taoism which dont really mention a God very much.
It's been an interesting thread but I'm going to bed now.

David.

P.S Don't know much about Rastafarianism either. Just love Bob's music on a summer evening with a cool drink.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 09:59:18 pm by djsb »
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Offline bullet308

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #282 on: May 20, 2012, 10:16:52 pm »
Well, one of the problems is which definition of atheist and/or agnostic do you care to adopt?

I have seen folks that have embraced relatively radical forms of atheism with a fervor that I could only describe as religious.

But then, I have found people that believed in all manner of secular things with the same ardor. In the 20th century, such secular belief systems included Communism and National Socialism, which between them killed something on the order of 150,000 million people, which probably dwarfs the numbers killed in the name of religion, much less atheism.

Which I supposed goes to demonstrate something I have long believed...its isnt religion that is so much the enemy of peace and civilization (or at least, it certainly is not exclusively so) as rigid, dogmatic belief systems that commonly have the suffix -isim tacked onto the end of them. ALL of them.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #283 on: May 20, 2012, 11:01:25 pm »
the jehovah :  " you dont have to live this way"
Surefire way to get rid of them ( i did this once.. never saw them again . they keep blacklists you know )

First some background info:
According to their scripture only 144000 people will be allowed in heaven. ( This is a doctrine few of the jehovas witnesses understand themselves ) this started in the year zero and was completed by the 1930's... anyone not on that list cannot get into heaven and will wander earth forever after the apocalypse. I don't know the finer details but yehova's witnesses know the 144000 number ...

So here is how you do it:
You question them why they continue preaching and trying to convert people to their religion. The selection process is over. the 144000 have been chosen and you were born too late to get in.  -baffled stare-

If they will mumble on about the process being 'flexible' and open for interpretation you strike the final blow :
Well , the more you spread this information the lower your own chances will be to get in.... i'd keep mum about it .. -grin-

That was it. They left. Never been back , and this was 15 years ago.

I used to read all that stuff out of interest.  I am a-religious. There is no bearded-man-on-a-gold-rimmed-cloud.

You can believe that there is something after death and that is your right, and we can talk about it. But the moment people start killing each other over it ... ehhhh.....

And that is the problem with ORGANISED religions. It's all about control,power and money. A group of people has been waving their finger and scaring the mass of gullible people so they would behave according to what they wanted. Talk about mass terrorism. "If you don't do this you will burn in hell , if you do that you will burn eternally in hell". You can make little kids cry, traumaitze and scar them for life with those stories.  Some of the stuff in the bible is really scary... imagine reading the chapter where one guy almost slaughters his kid to offer it to god. Now imagine reading that as a 6 year old and wondering every day if your father may pull a stunt like that ...

I watched my dad die a couple of months ago. We actually talked about this. His said this : I don't think there is anything after. After i'm gone the world will keep on spinning, and it'll manage perfectly fine without me on it. Don't let me dying stop you from living.
His brother asked: you don't think you may see our dad again ( my grandfather ) ? 
My dad stopped a few seconds and answered this : That could be, i don't know , but i am not going to spend my last living hours pondering fruitlessly over what may and may not be. I'd rather spend it talking to you guys instead of letting it drive me nuts. I'm gonna find out soon enough.

And in the end that is the only true thing. Anyone , whether religious , atheist or whatever can only ponder fruitlessly. You can 'believe' but you cannot 'know'. Knowing in the sense of having 'proof'. Non believers will say all the evidence points to 'no' , believers will say 'all the evidence points to 'yes'. Stop wasting your life and try to enjoy yourself while you are alive. Live in the moment. Do no harm, help where you can.
All the rest is just 'fuzz'. Even the pope , ayatollahs or whatever 'heads of religions' don't have the answers. At the end we're all equally 'dumb'.

And don't let anyone terrorize you in subscribing to their point of view.

Besides , the prospect of eternally flittering amongst the clouds while playing the harp sounds pretty boring to me... At least in hell it'd be hot enough to solder :)  or maybe not.. Hell would be an eternally broken soldering iron, parts that all have one missing leg, a reel of solder that is always empty, PCB's that always over-etch, and code that has always one more error preventing it from even compiling... besides your computer would always crash just before you could save your file so you'd have to retype everything. and they'd probably have dyslectic keyboards too. ( think of a keyboard that randomly shuffles its key around. just as you hit them)

Now excuse me , i have to go poke another chip with my earthly , working, iron. May as well use my time fruitfully. Wouldn't want to waste life ... that would be a sin (pun intended)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 11:12:32 pm by free_electron »
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Offline A Hellene

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #284 on: May 20, 2012, 11:33:39 pm »
[...]
Which I supposed goes to demonstrate something I have long believed...its isnt religion that is so much the enemy of peace and civilization (or at least, it certainly is not exclusively so) as rigid, dogmatic belief systems that commonly have the suffix -isim tacked onto the end of them. ALL of them.
It is an interesting question indeed, whether religions or regimes (or, put differently, whether religious doctrines or political doctrines) have been the most effective annihilators.

In terms of massacres and massive murders, here are a few typical figures of the victims Judeo-Christianity, the offspring of the ancient Abrahamic cabal, is responsible for:
- 100,000 by the Witch-hunt,
- 350,000 by the Spanish Inquisition,
- 1,000,000 by the Crusades (1095-1272),
- 90,000,000 (?) by the ethnic cleansing of Native Americans and Aborigines (native Australians).

On the other hand, Communism and Socialism in all of their forms, the latest offsprings of the same ancient Abrahamic cabal, that were introduced by the son of a Rabbi called Haim Mardochai Kissel (or Carl Marx, after the change of his Mosaic name) whose tutor and guide was Moses Hess, redefined the term "massacre":
- 1,670,000 by Ho Chi Minh, in Vietnam,
- 2,035,000 by Pol Pot, the buddy of Henry Kissinger (Abraham ben Eleazar) in Cambodia,
- 20,946,000 by Hitler,
- 61,911,000 by Stalin (Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili),
- 76,702,000 by Mao...

The figures above were estimated by Rudolph J. Rummel, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Political Science in the University of Hawaii.

Not to mention the ethnic cleansing of the Ethnic Hellenes (not the Greeks, which are the Christianised native Hellenes, but the unconverted natives) right after the official establishment of Christianity in the fourth century CE, as the Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus tells us in his Rerum gestarum Libri Vol.14-19 about the brutal massacre of Ethnic Hellenes by the Christians that begun in 341 CE and lasted for two decades in Scythopolis (the town now called Beit She’an in north Israel), which was used for the concentration, torture and murder of anyone not converting to Christianity. This was a massacre conceived by George, Bishop of Alexandria, and executed by the Roman Emperor Constantius II (the second son of Constantine). It is estimated that, by the sixth century CE, 19 million Hellenes were slaughtered by Judeo-Christianity, that Abrahamic religion of "love and compasson"...


Though Communism and Socialism are clearly ahead of the contest, I cannot even imagine what Judeo-Christianity and Islam could have done with their score, if they had access to more efficient or modern weaponry...

It is obvious that in the pretext of god or self-god or no-god, the extent of human brutality is breathtaking. It is also a fact that the most religious nations in the West are the most warlike, which reveals what influence the religions can have on people.

I will absolutely agree in that, whatever form or disguise the dogmas (the -isms, as were very well put, above) have, they are ideologies; and all ideologies are variations on human control management.


-George
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 01:17:59 am by A Hellene »
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #285 on: May 20, 2012, 11:42:49 pm »
Quote
Unfortunately, this thread seems to have descended into a chaotic debate
face it. thats the way it is. get acquainted or leave ;) this is not flowcode thread :P
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Online IanB

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #286 on: May 20, 2012, 11:55:52 pm »
Unfortunately, this thread seems to have descended into a chaotic debate. People seem to be more interested in trying to prove the existance of God, intellectually, which is fallible, foolish and impossible.

Quite.

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I am asking for this thread to be removed and/or locked.

Absolutely not! Why lock the most entertaining thread in ages?

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You're ALL loved, ALL valuable and ALL God's children. If you seek the answers, get them from the source... ask God himself, and/or read the Bible.

That seems a bit foolish. God isn't there, and the Bible was manifestly written by man.

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Until people learn to accept the beliefs and opinions of others (which it seems many of you do not), these kinds of topics will never work well, as all folk seem to care about is to subversively or overtly insult the faith of another, and then laugh at them, whilst asking for "proof".

Why should anyone learn to accept to the crazy and unsubstantiated beliefs of fools?

Quote
"A fool says in his heart 'there is no God' "

Here is your proof, right there. You pick one quote to support your position, and you pick a quote that is obviously wrong. How can you convince anyone with that?

Here is the corrected version:

"A fool says in his heart 'there is a God' "

If you start from this supposition it's downhill all the way.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 11:58:08 pm by IanB »
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Offline Rufus

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #287 on: May 20, 2012, 11:56:40 pm »
I am asking for this thread to be removed and/or locked.

No one is forcing you to read or contribute to the thread.

You would like to force everyone else not to read or contribute to the thread.

I do not fear this thread. Do you?
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #288 on: May 21, 2012, 01:49:57 am »
Mech, you failed to answer lots of my questions which some of them need only yes/no for answer. Actually I'm not expecting them either since you alone simply just can not cope with them, its way too much for you alone to handle even they just plain simple questions.

Ok, this is the last one for you quoting yourself since you started this Islam talk here ....

"so, we islam are peaceful religion. come and join us! my fellow christians and agnostics, come embrace Allah and believe Him with your heart!"

Peaceful eh ? Tell us "precisely" what is written in your Holy Book when someone decided that Islam is no longer the "right path", and going to leave Islam for other religion ? What will happened to that person ?  :o

Just an exact answer please, no mumbo jumbo around ...


Offline free_electron

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #289 on: May 21, 2012, 02:24:19 am »
If atheism is just a form of religion then by the same logic health is just a form of illness.
Strictly speaking , 'life' is a medical condition to which 100% of the patients finally succumb ... You start as a random collection of atoms that clump together and form complex molecules. Eventually this contraption does fall apart again...

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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #290 on: May 21, 2012, 03:41:49 am »
Mech, you failed to answer lots of my questions which some of them need only yes/no for answer.
Peaceful eh ? Tell us "precisely" what is written in your Holy Book when someone decided that Islam is no longer the "right path", and going to leave Islam for other religion ? What will happened to that person ?  :o
Just an exact answer please, no mumbo jumbo around ...
sorry i didnt see all the questions, only whats i can see clearly. or either the answer is unknown or unprovable (pointless to answer). the penalty for convert from islam is death after consultation and if unable to recover, thats what i learnt. but you never saw a person get killed because of that, even though there's many muslim converted to other religion everyday (they are lost). probably some practical law high up there among the rank of ulama (religious experts), i'm no expert to answer every details. i just tried in a way that probably agnostics will be able to understand, but i proved myself wrong :P
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Offline bullet308

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #291 on: May 21, 2012, 03:45:07 am »
Islam is no different from Christianity or Judaism, in that it provides its followers with a fairly complete set of tools with which to either live a wholesome and productive life, or to rationalize acts of profound evil, great and small. Even a casual survey of human history proves this conclusively, particularly the latter.

When they tell me. "I am a Christian/Muslim/Jew", their followers think they have told me everything when they have told me precisely nothing, except the particular sets of words they use to guide them in their lives, be it productive, orderly, chaotic, evil or otherwise.


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Offline BravoV

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #292 on: May 21, 2012, 04:12:52 am »
sorry i didnt see all the questions, only whats i can see clearly. or either the answer is unknown or unprovable (pointless to answer).
Its not pointless, its simply there are no answer. Just ask your ulama and they also will not able to give you a clear answer rather than start to question your faith. Infact this is a well known tactic for ages in Islam communities, if they're overwhelmed by questions, they will start to blame/threaten you instead trying hard to answer the question.

At certain places like at middle east countries, by simply questioning the Book with such innocent child's level questions like I did can be ended with decapitation.  ;)


the penalty for convert from islam is death after consultation and if unable to recover, thats what i learnt. but you never saw a person get killed because of that

See ? That is why non moslem don't trust easily when most moslems always called their Islam a peaceful religion.


probably some practical law high up there among the rank of ulama (religious experts), i'm no expert to answer every details. i just tried in a way that probably agnostics will be able to understand, but i proved myself wrong :P

Mech, I have no doubt you are an educated and a nice person, its just all the answers for those questions are simply way too much even for ulamas that have dedicated their life to study the Book, so don't blame your self too much, its not your fault nor your limitation.

Offline amspire

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #293 on: May 21, 2012, 05:25:12 am »
the penalty for convert from islam is death after consultation and if unable to recover, thats what i learnt. but you never saw a person get killed because of that

See ? That is why non moslem don't trust easily when most moslems always called their Islam a peaceful religion.

Doesn't sound any worse then the Bible:

Quote
For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death
from Leviticus.


 

Offline BravoV

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #294 on: May 21, 2012, 05:41:48 am »
Doesn't sound any worse then the Bible:

Actually original Bibble's version is even worst.  :-\

Offline PeteInTexas

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #295 on: May 21, 2012, 05:42:44 am »
There is an omnipotent and omnipresent God.  Each time humans advance their knowledge of the natural world, they get to know more about this God.  But while humans can increase this knowledge without bound, they can only approach God's total knowledge of the natural world asymptotically.  For this reason, a proof of God is beyond reach for humans and must content themselves with the notion of faith to make up the deficit.
 

Offline MrPlacid

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #296 on: May 21, 2012, 06:23:04 am »
There is an omnipotent and omnipresent God.

And HOooooooooooooOW did you know that? Are you all-knowing like God?



« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 06:25:21 am by MrPlacid »
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #297 on: May 21, 2012, 06:25:04 am »
He may be omnipotent and omnipresent, but must surely have fallen asleep. If he was awake he'd be firing bolts of lightning up the asses of all the nitwits that commit atrocities in his name....
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Offline david77

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #298 on: May 21, 2012, 06:33:18 am »
He's been away on holiday according to this book: http://www.amazon.de/The-Second-Coming-John-Niven/dp/0434019569

Pretty funny actually.
 

Offline PeteInTexas

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Re: OT: The religion thead...
« Reply #299 on: May 21, 2012, 06:36:10 am »
There is an omnipotent and omnipresent God.

And HOooooooooooooOW did you know that? Are you all-knowing like God?

A proof of God is not possible for humans.
 


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