Out-of-control EV blaze (thermal runaway) threatens to sink massive RORO ship.

[MT]

[gnuarm]

I got tired of it about four minutes in.  It's all speculation, like, "kind of suggests EV thermal runaway", as if that's even a thing. 

Then he spouts falsehoods such as EV battery fires, "can not be stopped".  They can by applying water.  Gasoline fires require foam, because the gasoline floats on water, spreading the flames and making it so much worse.  Battery fires only require water.

This guy is a blowhard, with an obvious ax to grind.  None of the press reports talk about this being caused by EVs.  There were 2,857 cars, including only 25 electric cars.  Zero evidence of any cause, including it being started by an EV. 

I put John Cadogan in the bit bucket some time ago.

[aeberbach]

YouTube thumbnail-face is strong with this one.

[gnuarm]

YouTube thumbnail-face is strong with this one.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Halcyon]

This guy is a blowhard, with an obvious ax to grind.  None of the press reports talk about this being caused by EVs.  There were 2,857 cars, including only 25 electric cars.  Zero evidence of any cause, including it being started by an EV. 

I put John Cadogan in the bit bucket some time ago.

I do tend to agree. At the end of the day, he's a journalist and he has a way with words. Whilst he does make some excellent, factual videos and provides really good advice, I find his personal opinions and biases tend to creep in from time to time, which he attempts to pass off as "fact". One thing I've noticed is that he seems to have a beef with certain car brands, whilst seemingly loving others despite their flaws.

The way he speaks comes across as having a superiority complex at times which can make him hard to watch.

I would prefer he sticks to his videos about practical car maintenance, technical explanations and driving techniques, as opposed to some puff piece based off cherry-picked stats. It's the one reason why I hate these lists of "best and worst" car brands based off reported faults in a year. A "fault" could be a warranty claim about a loose or rattling fixture, or it could be something more catastrophic; Two entirely different things.

[gnuarm]

This guy is a blowhard, with an obvious ax to grind.  None of the press reports talk about this being caused by EVs.  There were 2,857 cars, including only 25 electric cars.  Zero evidence of any cause, including it being started by an EV. 

I put John Cadogan in the bit bucket some time ago.

I do tend to agree. At the end of the day, he's a journalist and he has a way with words.

I think you just offended an awful lot of journalists.

Whilst he does make some excellent, factual videos and provides really good advice, I find his personal opinions and biases tend to creep in from time to time, which he attempts to pass off as "fact". One thing I've noticed is that he seems to have a beef with certain car brands, whilst seemingly loving others despite their flaws.

Time to time???

The way he speaks comes across as having a superiority complex at times which can make him hard to watch.

I agree with that.  He not only acts superior, he has a goofy way of "performing" that is pretty silly.

I would prefer he sticks to his videos about practical car maintenance, technical explanations and driving techniques, as opposed to some puff piece based off cherry-picked stats. It's the one reason why I hate these lists of "best and worst" car brands based off reported faults in a year. A "fault" could be a warranty claim about a loose or rattling fixture, or it could be something more catastrophic; Two entirely different things.

Someone in a Tesla forum tried to make that distinction, but every time I have to put my car in the shop, is a huge inconvenience, so I don't distinguish what failed, only that it failed.

[John B]

He did a video a long time ago responding a comment that diesel engines run lean, and despite his convincing mocking drawl narration of the comment, he then proceeded to give the impression that he doesn't have the slightest clue how AFRs works.

[Halcyon]

Someone in a Tesla forum tried to make that distinction, but every time I have to put my car in the shop, is a huge inconvenience, so I don't distinguish what failed, only that it failed.

Sure it might be an inconvenience, but I don't think it's a fair way to measure how good or reliable a car brand is (let alone a single vehicle model). I don't think I've ever owned a car without some kind of "fault", even if it's just a squeak in some internal panel. Those kinds of trivial faults can wait until the car goes in for it's next service. It costs me no more in time or convenience to do so.

I don't think that it's fair comparing minor faults with things that actually cause a drivability of safety issue.

For example, in John Cadogan's 2022 "lemon list" he includes the likes of Mercedes-Benz and Volvo in that list (among others), despite being among the list of cars with the lowest number of major faults and recalls. His only excuse (and I really mean excuse) for Volvo is the "lack of dealerships" (even though there are 12 to choose from in Sydney metro alone) and just relies on his own opinion about being "terrible at reliability" with zero facts or figures to back up that claim. Similar with Mercedes, just because they are expensive and there were some grumblings between MB and their dealers being (apparently) shafted, that automatically makes the cars crap? I don't think so.

Even if you never set foot in a dealer, there are plenty of independent mechanics out there that specialise in European cars, and have done for decades. Taking a car to an independent instead of a dealer or "authorised service centre" won't void your warranty either.

But where is Subaru in Cadogan's lemon list? No mention of the electrical issues that plague many of their models spanning the last 10+ years, or unintended acceleration in some models built between 2012 and 2019, or that windscreens would spontaneously crack in models made between 2015 and 2020, not to mention faulty brake light switches in a range of 2008-2017 Subaru models. These aren't just small problems, but ones that impact millions of vehicles worldwide. But no, he'd rather pick on Volkswagen and Audi (admittedly with some merit) any chance he gets.

[JPortici]

YouTube thumbnail-face is strong with this one.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.

if you don't make soy faces on thumbnails the algorythm will crush you

[Berni]

Large lithium battery fires are indeed a real bitch to actually stop.

Yes you can stop them with water, but the problem is that the amount of water required is huge. Combined with the fact that these batteries live in a closed off metal box to protect them means that getting enough water to the burning battery is difficult. The whole thing made worse by the individual cells getting pressurized until they pop open one by one, each pop releasing a cloud of flammable high pressure gas that sends flames shooting out of the battery in random directions and at random times. They are also high voltage so water could in theory pose a shock hazard.

Even after you do manage to put the fire out the batteries usually continue to sizzle and short out inside, so the fire spontaneously starts again after like 15 minutes.

Firefighters are terrified of EV fires for these reasons. The Germans came up with one solution for it where they take a bin hauler truck with a hydraulic claw (often used for garbage collection of large items like washing machines). So they fill the metal bin in the back with water, then use the claw to grab the burning car and dunk it whole into the water. However obviously you have to first rescue the occupants of the car, so they still have to work with a burning car manually.

[Halcyon]

In terms of actual fires, yes, you're right, water is the best method of controlling them, but as you said, it sucks! I've actually been a member of the fire brigade for quite some time and this is straight from our standard operating procedures concerning lithium battery fires attached to motor vehicles or PV arrays (edited for brevity):

If a BESS is involved in fire, thermal runaway may occur. Thermal runaway is a chemical reaction where a cell fails inside a battery and a short circuit ignites the electrolyte, releasing excessive heat, toxic gases, and flammable vapours. The heat may affect surrounding cells also sending them into thermal runaway.

Cooling with water can potentially prevent thermal runaway. Water is the best extinguishing agent as foam does not assist in cooling and may inhibit use of a thermal imaging camera (TIC) to identify affected areas of the battery.

A large and sustained supply of water may be required (at least 4000 litres). The battery needs to be cooled for 15 minutes, then checked with a thermal imaging camera. After ambient temperature is reached, the battery needs to be monitored for up to 60 minutes, then checked again. In the instance of a large scale BESS – for example inside an industrial building or on a large-scale outdoor installation – there may potentially be multiple appliances required to effectively extinguish a fire and cool the BESS. Ensure that rapid scale-up (with appropriate command and control) is considered. Depending on BESS construction and available resources, a defensive strategy may be adopted, protecting exposures as the BESS burns itself out.


(BESS = Battery Electrical Storage Systems in Government speak)

I'm not suggesting the firies are the experts in electrical components, but I'm sure they would have done plenty of testing and research before they released this advice.

[gnuarm]

He did a video a long time ago responding a comment that diesel engines run lean, and despite his convincing mocking drawl narration of the comment, he then proceeded to give the impression that he doesn't have the slightest clue how AFRs works.

Maybe I don't either.  What's an AFR?

[gnuarm]

YouTube thumbnail-face is strong with this one.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.

if you don't make soy faces on thumbnails the algorythm will crush you

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about, "thumbnail-face" or "soy faces".   I have to assume you are making some sort of joke.  I'm not laughing. 

[mendip_discovery]

BBC News - Ameland rescue: Crew jump off ship ablaze with cargo of 3,000 cars
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66310280

Yesterday it was reported by the coastguard the fire was believed to have started with an electric car. But reading the article now that has been watered down. So the YT chap was just a bit quick to jump on the EV cars are bad band wagon for some views.

[Halcyon]

YouTube thumbnail-face is strong with this one.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.

if you don't make soy faces on thumbnails the algorythm will crush you

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about, "thumbnail-face" or "soy faces".   I have to assume you are making some sort of joke.  I'm not laughing.

It's a colloquialism for the overly-forced and fake expressions people pull on video thumbnails. It's the visual equivalent of click-bait... Like "OMG... He did WHAT?!...."

[gnuarm]

Large lithium battery fires are indeed a real bitch to actually stop.

That's true for every type of fire.  Do you have any particular definition of "large"?  I think they found it hard to put out the fires of Tokyo and Dresden. 

Yes you can stop them with water, but the problem is that the amount of water required is huge.

And yet, they are often put out easily when fire departments are involved.  This is a major topic of disinformation.  There was a fire in the stavanger norway airport garage in 2020, which destroyed hundreds of cars and shut down the airport for hours. 

Initial reports was it started with an EV, but turned out to be an Opel diesel which started the fire.  Typical EV misinformation.

An EV in Texas caught fire in a crash.  Initial reports (see a theme here?) said it took "hours" and a large portion of the fire department to extinguish the blaze.  The reality is much smaller.  It was extinguished in under an hour (I want to say 30 minutes), but they left one fireman with a garden hose to put out the intermittent flareups.

Combined with the fact that these batteries live in a closed off metal box to protect them means that getting enough water to the burning battery is difficult.

I'm thinking you are a news reporter.  Rather than report verifiable facts, you extrapolate and draw conclusions on your own. 

The whole thing made worse by the individual cells getting pressurized until they pop open one by one, each pop releasing a cloud of flammable high pressure gas that sends flames shooting out of the battery in random directions and at random times. They are also high voltage so water could in theory pose a shock hazard.

Oh, "in theory"?  So, now you are completely speculating, without any basis in reality?   Why not actually find something verifiable to report?

Even after you do manage to put the fire out the batteries usually continue to sizzle and short out inside, so the fire spontaneously starts again after like 15 minutes.

Yes, that is true.  So, you have a continuing need for a garden hose.

Firefighters are terrified of EV fires for these reasons.

Ah, reporting the emotions of others.  I'm glad you can see into their hearts and show it to us.

The Germans came up with one solution for it where they take a bin hauler truck with a hydraulic claw (often used for garbage collection of large items like washing machines). So they fill the metal bin in the back with water, then use the claw to grab the burning car and dunk it whole into the water. However obviously you have to first rescue the occupants of the car, so they still have to work with a burning car manually.

At least they aren't dealing with gasoline fires, which require foam to put out and horribly burn many, many people every year.   In the US, there are 150,000 car fires every year, according to government numbers.

[gnuarm]

It would help a lot if you indicated who you were replying to.

In terms of actual fires, yes, you're right, water is the best method of controlling them, but as you said, it sucks! I've actually been a member of the fire brigade for quite some time and this is straight from our standard operating procedures concerning lithium battery fires attached to motor vehicles or PV arrays (edited for brevity):

If a BESS is involved in fire, thermal runaway may occur. Thermal runaway is a chemical reaction where a cell fails inside a battery and a short circuit ignites the electrolyte, releasing excessive heat, toxic gases, and flammable vapours. The heat may affect surrounding cells also sending them into thermal runaway.

So thermal runaway is what we otherwise would call, "burning"?  Yes, things burn.  Ignite one part of it and other parts get hot and burn too.  I think this is also true of gas tanks, especially now that many are made of plastic.

Gasoline thermal runaway is particularly spectacular. 

Cooling with water can potentially prevent thermal runaway. Water is the best extinguishing agent as foam does not assist in cooling and may inhibit use of a thermal imaging camera (TIC) to identify affected areas of the battery.

Yes, foam is for fighting gasoline and other petroleum fires, because simple water is very ineffective, and will spread the blazing gasoline on top of the water.   Picture a river of fire. 

A large and sustained supply of water may be required (at least 4000 litres).

I'd like to see the source materials for this claim.  I believe that's around 1,000 gallons.  I don't know if that is considered a lot for an automotive fire.  I know some of the car fires reported here, were truly impossible to extinguish, so I guess that would be an infinite amount of fire fighting liquid.  I don't know how many fire departments here have foam to fight gas fires.  I guess if they don't, they let them burn out.

The battery needs to be cooled for 15 minutes, then checked with a thermal imaging camera. After ambient temperature is reached, the battery needs to be monitored for up to 60 minutes, then checked again.

LOL  I like the thermal camera thing. 

In the instance of a large scale BESS – for example inside an industrial building or on a large-scale outdoor installation – there may potentially be multiple appliances required to effectively extinguish a fire and cool the BESS. Ensure that rapid scale-up (with appropriate command and control) is considered. Depending on BESS construction and available resources, a defensive strategy may be adopted, protecting exposures as the BESS burns itself out.


(BESS = Battery Electrical Storage Systems in Government speak)

I'm not suggesting the firies are the experts in electrical components, but I'm sure they would have done plenty of testing and research before they released this advice.

I'd love to see the reports of  those tests and research. 

I'm a scientist myself.  I've learned to not believe things posted on the Internet, until I've read the references.  I found one reference on Wikipedia, where the wiki article said the exact opposite of what the reference said.  OPPOSITE!!

[gnuarm]

BBC News - Ameland rescue: Crew jump off ship ablaze with cargo of 3,000 cars
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66310280

Yesterday it was reported by the coastguard the fire was believed to have started with an electric car. But reading the article now that has been watered down. So the YT chap was just a bit quick to jump on the EV cars are bad band wagon for some views.

Very common.  The huge airport garage fire at Stavanger airport, in Norway was initially reported as starting with an EV.  Turns out it was an Opel diesel.  But many read the initial reports, but never read the follow ups that reported the true facts.

Reports of EV fires remind me of Mark Twain's quote, "The report of my death was greatly exaggerated".

[John B]

He did a video a long time ago responding a comment that diesel engines run lean, and despite his convincing mocking drawl narration of the comment, he then proceeded to give the impression that he doesn't have the slightest clue how AFRs works.

Maybe I don't either.  What's an AFR?

Air Fuel Ratio. He was mocking someone who said diesel engines run lean......which they do. He proceeded to make a video then waffling along about tangential facts, some of which were wrong as well.

I thought he had some amount of training/education as an engineer so it was pretty disappointing.

Especially when the channel is somewhat pretentiously named "auto expert". Expert is basically a meme word these days.

[Jeroen3]

Most fire-fighting techniques on ships are incompatible with battery fires. Battery fires are difficult and create their own O₂ due to lithium cobalt oxide decomposition.

Water doesn't work unless you submerge the whole car. (sink the ship, roro ship are particularly vulnerable for this)
Foam doesn't work.
Gas doesn't work.
Mist doesn't work.

You can't extinguish the fire , only prevent spreading. And cars are packed tight on these ships.

Batteries are really annoying, really efficient, mostly stable, energy carriers.

Though, fires appear to have been a more recent development?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_roll-on/roll-off_vessel_accidents

[PA0PBZ]

I happen to live close to where the ship is on fire. I didn't watch the YT but the EV story was in almost all news reports about this, so maybe one of the crew members of the ship had some information where the fire started? Time will tell. The problem they are facing is that they can't continue putting water on the fire because the ship will get instable and could tip over and sink, which is not what we want in these waters, so they only cool down the ship on the outside. Latest reports are that the situation is getting better slowly, no more visible flames, so they are waiting for the ship to cool down enough to be boarded and towed away.

[nctnico]

BBC News - Ameland rescue: Crew jump off ship ablaze with cargo of 3,000 cars
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66310280

Yesterday it was reported by the coastguard the fire was believed to have started with an electric car. But reading the article now that has been watered down. So the YT chap was just a bit quick to jump on the EV cars are bad band wagon for some views.

But still, despite the actual cause of the fire, when EVs are involved the fire is extremely hard to put out (*). On a ship it is next to impossible. The ship currently on fire isn't the first ship with cars that has caught fire and they can't put the fire out. It may take weeks until the fire stops by itself. If you pump more water into the ship, it may sink leading to an even bigger environmental catastrophy. If ships with cars catching fire and sinking / total loss as a result where common, we wouldn't be reading it in the news. So there is a problem with transporting EVs on ships.

* The Dutch fire brigade has special trucks with water bins in which they submerge an EV to put the fire out as just sprinkling water over the car doesn't help.

[Berni]

Feel free to do the research yourself if you don't believe any of the forum members here. We are just discussing it for fun. If you are in charge of drafting up new standards on how to handle burning EVs or something then you should be using more reliable sources than this forum anyway.

Firefighters do have special protocols for things that involve electricity like EVs or solar panel arrays. How real the shock hazard is i don't know, hence why i said "in theory", just that nobody wants to be held accountable for someone getting shocked to death so they are careful with it anyway and put protocols in place.

Not saying that internal combustion cars don't burn, or that they are easy to extinguish if they do catch fire. Just that large lithium battery packs present a unique extra challenge in putting the fire out. Those batteries contain a lot of energy and once damaged they don't need oxygen or heat to release it (also in the process likely damage cells next to it causing those to fail too). Unlike burning gasoline or diesel or plastics that stop burning once deprived of heat or oxygen.

The EVs catching fires is a thing that the media loves to focus on and write about, while they won't even report on a internal combustion car catching fire (unless there is something else in the news story to write about). None of the cars (EV or ICE) spontaneously catch fire often enough for people to be worried about there own car catching fire, sure it happens but it is a few known cases among the many many many cars out there.

[Ranayna]

From what i understood, there are like 25 BEVs on that ship. Alongside around 2000 ICE cars.
Sure, a battery might have started the fire. And they surely are burning now. But can they really still be a major contributing factor to the fire as a whole?

From what i heard this morning on the radio, the temperatures on the ship are decreasing and there are no visible flames anymore.

[nctnico]

From what i understood, there are like 25 BEVs on that ship. Alongside around 2000 ICE cars.
Sure, a battery might have started the fire. And they surely are burning now. But can they really still be a major contributing factor to the fire as a whole?

From what i heard this morning on the radio, the temperatures on the ship are decreasing and there are no visible flames anymore.

No. There where nearly 500 BEVs on the ship (out of 3800 cars in total) and according to the news (probably based on a statement made by a crew member / report from the captain to the coast guard), one of these cars caught fire.