Author Topic: Out-of-control EV blaze (thermal runaway) threatens to sink massive RORO ship.  (Read 13106 times)

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Offline Siwastaja

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The electrolyte is pyrophoric, this means it can reignite in air.

I don't think it's true. Electrolyte in li-ion batteries is just lithium salt in an organic solvent like ethylene carbonate. It's flammable, but not pyrophoric; and it's not super flammable, flash point of EC for example is 150degC and autoignition temperature 465degC. Compare the flash and autoignition temperatures of gasoline, -43degC and 280degC respectively. The electrolyte only burns during the incident, when the cells already are hot enough to ignite the electrolyte.

The battery itself however contains oxidizer in form oxygen in the cathode (e.g. LiNiCoAlO2), and this is the source of reignitions. This thermal runaway happens inside the battery which makes the reignition slower / benign compared to reigniting gasoline which can spontaneously combust at -43degC or higher given enough spilled gasoline i.e. good mixture.

Flammable electrolyte is not great and would be replaced if the battery industry had something better available, but it's not the root issue with battery fires, just adds to the destruction and spread of fire.

(Note how LiFePO4 cells use the same flammable electrolyte but due to their less reactive cathode chemistry and worse energy density, even if they experience thermal runaway one often sees how the electrolyte just sprays out without getting ignited, as temperatures are just a few hundred degC during the incident. (I'm not saying it doesn't happen, be careful with the LFP chemistry, too.))
« Last Edit: July 28, 2023, 02:38:16 pm by Siwastaja »
 
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Offline Siwastaja

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There is nothing "easy" about transporting such a container of water.  Water is cheap and plentiful.  In fact, it would be the perfect approach if only it were readily available, say at a fire hydrant.  Oh, it is, isn't it. 

So you can start fighting an EV fire without waiting for the only tank of water to arrive.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest waiting for the water tank. The point of that tank is just to "automate" the prevention of reignitions, to replace that hose guy. Before it arrives, fire is fought normally.

Because I fail to find the English word, this is what I mean by existing infrastructure: https://epnvaihtolavapalvelu.fi/images/2020/06/12/dsc08808-neli-250-px.jpg . These things are available with hydraulic lids. It just needs to be made somewhat water-proof, other than that, pretty simple. The hose guy is probably easier if you have space, but imagine this happening in a tunnel or a tight parking garage or something. Then you would transfer the car out ASAP, the sooner the better. That container thing would prevent reignition during that transfer.

Now as you point out EV fires being quite rare, and them happening in "tight spots" even more rare, so probably the whole city fire brigade would only need one-two such containers, not N+1.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2023, 02:46:22 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline gnuarm

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Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about, "thumbnail-face" or "soy faces".   I have to assume you are making some sort of joke.  I'm not laughing.

It means the tendency of YouTube creators to make exaggerated faces on thumbnails is found tiresome by a lot of people to the extent it's an instant skip.

Sounds like something that's a problem for old people. 
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Offline gnuarm

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There is nothing "easy" about transporting such a container of water.  Water is cheap and plentiful.  In fact, it would be the perfect approach if only it were readily available, say at a fire hydrant.  Oh, it is, isn't it. 

So you can start fighting an EV fire without waiting for the only tank of water to arrive.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest waiting for the water tank. The point of that tank is just to "automate" the prevention of reignitions, to replace that hose guy. Before it arrives, fire is fought normally.

Because I fail to find the English word, this is what I mean by existing infrastructure: https://epnvaihtolavapalvelu.fi/images/2020/06/12/dsc08808-neli-250-px.jpg . These things are available with hydraulic lids. It just needs to be made somewhat water-proof, other than that, pretty simple. The hose guy is probably easier if you have space, but imagine this happening in a tunnel or a tight parking garage or something. Then you would transfer the car out ASAP, the sooner the better. That container thing would prevent reignition during that transfer.

Now as you point out EV fires being quite rare, and them happening in "tight spots" even more rare, so probably the whole city fire brigade would only need one-two such containers, not N+1.

I don't know what to make of this conversation.  As is common in EEVblog, people who actually know very little about the realities of a given thing, are very willing to offer their opinions, usually as if it were fact.

The percentage of highway that is in tunnels, is probably (well) under 0.1% of the total.  I can only think of two tunnels in the entire region of 100 miles from DC.  I find it absurd to consider such specialized equipment to simply reduce the time of such a blockage a bit absurd.  Maybe once we have more than 1 in 100 on the road, we can take another look at what is actually needed. 
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Offline AVGresponding

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I guess it's true what they say about irony.
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
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Offline Monkeh

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The percentage of highway that is in tunnels, is probably (well) under 0.1% of the total.

The percentage of tunnels in the TEN-T road network, which covers critical infrastructure, is 1.2%.

https://www.cedr.eu/download/Publications/2020/CEDR-Technical-Report-2020-01-TEN-T-2019-Performance-Report.pdf < Page 69. Because I come with fact, citations, and no bias.

Dismissal based on this not counting every street and alley in the world in 3.. 2.. 1..
 

Offline tszaboo

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We are not doomed, but everyone buying cars now of these "Gen 1" electric cars is going to have a bad time in the future when solid state batteries come out. I really think at some point regular lithium is going to get banned, then you cannot drive into parking garages or city centers with their flashy tesla.

I think that's an insane overreaction, relatively speaking the risk of ICE fire or the risk of EV fire are both quite low, likely the EV represents a lower risk.  If you want to ban any car from a parking garage, ban the 15 year old car with an oil leak and 15A fuses in place of 5A ones that keep blowing for some reason...

Just a few years ago in the UK a fire in a Range Rover that was reportedly 15 years old destroyed 1150 cars and likely wrote off the entire building...
https://www.bafsa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/2018/12/Merseyside-FRS-Car-Park-Report.pdf

From the report:

Quote
Running fuel fires were witnessed by BA crews and this undoubtedly led to fire spread
through the drainage system, down ramps and along the rib slab floor. This was also
highlighted in the BRE experiments conducted between 2006 and 2009:

* “Running fuel fires due to failure of plastic fuel tanks in early stages of vehicle
fires can be expected. It is estimated 85% of European vehicles are thought to
have plastic fuel tanks.” (BRE Fire Spread in Car Parks BD2552 p.12).[..]
That's not the point. When was the last time when you saw political decision based on any sort of data?
My point is that they are going to get banned because there is a safer alternative, and every single electrical car fire is going to make it to the news, because it is the new thing.
There was probably more Italian supercars on fire than electric cars, but you kinda expect them to combust, and doesn't make it into the news.
 

Offline tom66

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That's not the point. When was the last time when you saw political decision based on any sort of data?
My point is that they are going to get banned because there is a safer alternative, and every single electrical car fire is going to make it to the news, because it is the new thing.
There was probably more Italian supercars on fire than electric cars, but you kinda expect them to combust, and doesn't make it into the news.

Well, it won't be political, will it?  At the end of the day, it will come down to insurance companies.  Are they comfortable with insuring ships and car park structures with electric vehicles within?

So far, the evidence seems to be: mostly yes, there's one ship company in Norway that I'm aware of has banned EVs, but I'm not aware of anywhere else banning EVs.  Commercial decisions will influence this too:  if you aren't selling to EV users, as they become more dominant, they are going to go elsewhere for their business.

If there were Tesla's catching fire every 10 minutes then it might make sense to act in the way you describe, but the fact that they are notable news items suggests that they aren't that common and while insuring a Tesla at home is a little more expensive than other cars (due in part to Tesla's incompetence in supplying spare parts leading to long hire car periods), they're not drastically more expensive to cover for all the standard liabilities.
 
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Offline aeberbach

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Sounds like something that's a problem for old people.

Not wasting time on clowns is a skill old people learn, that's true.
Software guy studying B.Eng.
 

Offline gnuarm

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The percentage of highway that is in tunnels, is probably (well) under 0.1% of the total.

The percentage of tunnels in the TEN-T road network, which covers critical infrastructure, is 1.2%.

https://www.cedr.eu/download/Publications/2020/CEDR-Technical-Report-2020-01-TEN-T-2019-Performance-Report.pdf < Page 69. Because I come with fact, citations, and no bias.

Dismissal based on this not counting every street and alley in the world in 3.. 2.. 1..

I suppose you can find any statistic you want.

"tunnels make up less than 0.3% of the network in Estonia, Ireland, Lithuania, Poland, Sweden and the UK."

What is your point?
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Offline Monkeh

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The percentage of highway that is in tunnels, is probably (well) under 0.1% of the total.

The percentage of tunnels in the TEN-T road network, which covers critical infrastructure, is 1.2%.

https://www.cedr.eu/download/Publications/2020/CEDR-Technical-Report-2020-01-TEN-T-2019-Performance-Report.pdf < Page 69. Because I come with fact, citations, and no bias.

Dismissal based on this not counting every street and alley in the world in 3.. 2.. 1..

I suppose you can find any statistic you want.

"tunnels make up less than 0.3% of the network in Estonia, Ireland, Lithuania, Poland, Sweden and the UK."

What is your point?

My point is that your assumption that tunnels are an irrelevancy is nonsense and a subject you know next to nothing about. Just like extinguishing vehicle fires of any type, and monitoring the remains afterwards. You might notice that certain countries, for example the Netherlands, which is where this particular topic originated in this thread, and say, Switzerland, have rather a lot of tunnels in their critical road infrastructure, as far as the data available at the publication of that report goes.

Your only purpose here is to attack anything which paints EVs in even the faintest negative light.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2023, 10:41:02 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline gnuarm

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The percentage of highway that is in tunnels, is probably (well) under 0.1% of the total.

The percentage of tunnels in the TEN-T road network, which covers critical infrastructure, is 1.2%.

https://www.cedr.eu/download/Publications/2020/CEDR-Technical-Report-2020-01-TEN-T-2019-Performance-Report.pdf < Page 69. Because I come with fact, citations, and no bias.

Dismissal based on this not counting every street and alley in the world in 3.. 2.. 1..

I suppose you can find any statistic you want.

"tunnels make up less than 0.3% of the network in Estonia, Ireland, Lithuania, Poland, Sweden and the UK."

What is your point?

My point is that your assumption that tunnels are an irrelevancy is nonsense and a subject you know next to nothing about. Just like extinguishing vehicle fires of any type, and monitoring the remains afterwards.

Your only purpose here is to attack anything which paints EVs in even the faintest negative light.

No, my purpose is to view EV issues with an appropriate light.  Tunnels are an irrelevancy for EVs, or there would be a mobile water tank at every tunnel.  There is a very small number of places where such water tanks are in place.  Even Tesla says NOT to immerse the vehicle in a tank of water.  Appropriate response is to spray the EV with water.  Not dunk, spray.

I don't need to be unrealistic about this issue.  Others are doing plenty of that themselves. 
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Offline Monkeh

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No, my purpose is to view EV issues with an appropriate light.  Tunnels are an irrelevancy for EVs, or there would be a mobile water tank at every tunnel.  There is a very small number of places where such water tanks are in place.  Even Tesla says NOT to immerse the vehicle in a tank of water.  Appropriate response is to spray the EV with water.  Not dunk, spray.

I don't need to be unrealistic about this issue.  Others are doing plenty of that themselves.

Ah, so your limited knowledge on the subject of fire containment trumps that of the organisations who do it for a living? Tesla build cars. They don't put out their own fires for a living - literally or figuratively. And they only get to give advice about their own products.

I don't know what to make of this conversation.  As is common in EEVblog, people who actually know very little about the realities of a given thing, are very willing to offer their opinions, usually as if it were fact.

At least you're proving your own statement to be accurate.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2023, 10:49:51 pm by Monkeh »
 
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Offline gnuarm

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No, my purpose is to view EV issues with an appropriate light.  Tunnels are an irrelevancy for EVs, or there would be a mobile water tank at every tunnel.  There is a very small number of places where such water tanks are in place.  Even Tesla says NOT to immerse the vehicle in a tank of water.  Appropriate response is to spray the EV with water.  Not dunk, spray.

I don't need to be unrealistic about this issue.  Others are doing plenty of that themselves.

Ah, so your limited knowledge on the subject of fire containment trumps that of the organisations who do it for a living? Tesla build cars. They don't put out their own fires for a living - literally or figuratively. And they only get to give advice about their own products.

Which they did.  They said do not submerse the vehicle.   What part of that is not clear?
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Offline Monkeh

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No, my purpose is to view EV issues with an appropriate light.  Tunnels are an irrelevancy for EVs, or there would be a mobile water tank at every tunnel.  There is a very small number of places where such water tanks are in place.  Even Tesla says NOT to immerse the vehicle in a tank of water.  Appropriate response is to spray the EV with water.  Not dunk, spray.

I don't need to be unrealistic about this issue.  Others are doing plenty of that themselves.

Ah, so your limited knowledge on the subject of fire containment trumps that of the organisations who do it for a living? Tesla build cars. They don't put out their own fires for a living - literally or figuratively. And they only get to give advice about their own products.

Which they did.  They said do not submerse the vehicle.   What part of that is not clear?

In your world, are Tesla the only EV manufacturer?

Submersion is a method being trialed to more effectively handle EV fires. Whether Tesla or you believe in it is immaterial and rejecting the notion out of hand is presenting your opinion as fact.

Just a few posts ago, you had no idea how much water (or other extinguishing agent) and time was involved in putting out a car fire - ICE or EV. Now you're an authority on appropriate methods and the needs of the agencies dealing with these fires to reopen roads. :palm:
« Last Edit: July 28, 2023, 11:34:40 pm by Monkeh »
 
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Offline MTTopic starter

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The RORO ship owners a Japanese company said there was 500 EV's onboard not 25. A number of RORO's have burned past last decade one in 2022 was this one carrying a mix of ICE and EV's. It eventually sank.

https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/01/massive-cargo-ship-carrying-electric-cars-sinks-in-atlantic-ocean-after-fire

 

Offline PlainName

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I'm thinking you are a news reporter.  Rather than report verifiable facts, you extrapolate and draw conclusions on your own. 

I know some of the car fires reported here, were truly impossible to extinguish, so I guess that would be an infinite amount of fire fighting liquid.  I don't know how many fire departments here have foam to fight gas fires.  I guess if they don't, they let them burn out.

Pot, meet kettle.
 

Offline MTTopic starter

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Offline MTTopic starter

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Offline gnuarm

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I'm about halfway through the video, into the actual second video which the author tacked onto the end, and the only mention of EVs has been to mention nothing specifically relevant to the fire on the Fremantle Highway.   He does spread falsehoods such as EV fires being "almost impossible to extinguish".   He tries to blame this on how closely they are packed.  All the while, no one has shown the fire had anything to do with EVs.

One of the video hosts says, "EVs catch fire even on land for no apparent reason", with no support.  I expect there are people even in this group, who believe that.

It is clear that the fear of fires in EVs is an emotional reaction to new technology, not entirely unlike people being afraid of "radiation" from 5G technology.  It is disappointing to see presenters spreading this sort of misinformation.  But, they are doing their videos to make money, which requires eyes on the screen.  They can't get that by saying, "We don't actually know anything yet, but..."
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Offline PA0PBZ

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Several news sources here in NL stated that the cars on the 4 lowest decks seem to be in good condition while the upper decks are a massacre. Also, the EVs are all on the lower decks...
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Several news sources here in NL stated that the cars on the 4 lowest decks seem to be in good condition while the upper decks are a massacre. Also, the EVs are all on the lower decks...

Any reliable sources?  Or are they all simply repeating a single Internet source of dubious provenance? 

That's the problem with this sort of story.  One source will make a statement.  It will be repeated by many, many web sites, in ways that totally obscure the actual source, saying things like "crew members say", etc. 

Believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see.
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Offline PA0PBZ

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Several news sources here in NL stated that the cars on the 4 lowest decks seem to be in good condition while the upper decks are a massacre. Also, the EVs are all on the lower decks...

Any reliable sources?  Or are they all simply repeating a single Internet source of dubious provenance? 

'They' say it was reported by the salvage team that went on board to assess the situation, but I didn't talk to the salvage team myself so  :-//
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Several news sources here in NL stated that the cars on the 4 lowest decks seem to be in good condition while the upper decks are a massacre. Also, the EVs are all on the lower decks...

Any reliable sources?  Or are they all simply repeating a single Internet source of dubious provenance? 

'They' say it was reported by the salvage team that went on board to assess the situation, but I didn't talk to the salvage team myself so  :-//

I bet you didn't talk to "they" either? 

If the salvage "team" made a statement like this, it would seem reasonable that the salvage team would be properly interviewed, no? 

This is no different from flat earth or men from outer space.  It only requires the application of even small amounts of reason. 
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Offline nctnico

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Several news sources here in NL stated that the cars on the 4 lowest decks seem to be in good condition while the upper decks are a massacre. Also, the EVs are all on the lower decks...

Any reliable sources?  Or are they all simply repeating a single Internet source of dubious provenance? 

'They' say it was reported by the salvage team that went on board to assess the situation, but I didn't talk to the salvage team myself so  :-//

I bet you didn't talk to "they" either? 

If the salvage "team" made a statement like this, it would seem reasonable that the salvage team would be properly interviewed, no? 

This is no different from flat earth or men from outer space.  It only requires the application of even small amounts of reason.
You mean that guessing is better than having factual information? So far all you have been doing in this thread is dismissing factual information and keep clinging on to your own believes.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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