Author Topic: Out-of-control EV blaze (thermal runaway) threatens to sink massive RORO ship.  (Read 13104 times)

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Offline PA0PBZ

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You mean that guessing is better than having factual information? So far all you have been doing in this thread is dismissing factual information and keep clinging on to your own believes.

I'm a bit confused because it looked like gnuarm was defending EVs but even when I bring in some information that was apparently released by the head of the salvage team that it was not caused by the EVs he still reacts this way. Some are hard to please I guess  :-//
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Offline MTTopic starter

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I'm about halfway through the video, into the actual second video which the author tacked onto the end, and the only mention of EVs has been to mention nothing specifically relevant to the fire on the Fremantle Highway.   He does spread falsehoods such as EV fires being "almost impossible to extinguish".   He tries to blame this on how closely they are packed.  All the while, no one has shown the fire had anything to do with EVs.

One of the video hosts says, "EVs catch fire even on land for no apparent reason", with no support.  I expect there are people even in this group, who believe that.

It is clear that the fear of fires in EVs is an emotional reaction to new technology, not entirely unlike people being afraid of "radiation" from 5G technology.  It is disappointing to see presenters spreading this sort of misinformation.  But, they are doing their videos to make money, which requires eyes on the screen.  They can't get that by saying, "We don't actually know anything yet, but..."

Perhaps watch the full video then. So far all you have been doing in this thread and many other threads is dismissing factual information and keep clinging on to your own believes and biases, for some odd reason.
 

Offline gnuarm

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I'm about halfway through the video, into the actual second video which the author tacked onto the end, and the only mention of EVs has been to mention nothing specifically relevant to the fire on the Fremantle Highway.   He does spread falsehoods such as EV fires being "almost impossible to extinguish".   He tries to blame this on how closely they are packed.  All the while, no one has shown the fire had anything to do with EVs.

One of the video hosts says, "EVs catch fire even on land for no apparent reason", with no support.  I expect there are people even in this group, who believe that.

It is clear that the fear of fires in EVs is an emotional reaction to new technology, not entirely unlike people being afraid of "radiation" from 5G technology.  It is disappointing to see presenters spreading this sort of misinformation.  But, they are doing their videos to make money, which requires eyes on the screen.  They can't get that by saying, "We don't actually know anything yet, but..."

Perhaps watch the full video then. So far all you have been doing in this thread and many other threads is dismissing factual information and keep clinging on to your own believes and biases, for some odd reason.

What "beliefs and biases"?  What is wrong with using information that is from a reliable source, rather than "they"?
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Offline EPAIII

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Perhaps he is not making sense. Perhaps.

But you say, "Battery fires only require water."

So we have a burning ship in the middle of the ocean, which I suspect is mostly water, and they can't put it out. What's wrong with this picture? And don't tell me that water is not used to put out fires on ships. Sure, enough water could sink a ship, but it does take a lot. Fire control on ships has used water. Perhaps it is not currently the best answer, but it has been used. They even build and employ boats specifically for doing that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireboat

In WWII tons and tons of water was used to fight fires on Navy ships: sometimes successfully and sometimes not. But it was used.

So, perhaps, just perhaps you are also not making complete sense.

The mixed fuel argument seems to make more sense. There are 25 electric vehicles loaded in a ship with well over 1000 gas and diesel powered ones. So, in all likelihood, more than one thing is burning. But I am not a firefighter, so I don't claim to know.

As for using the words "thermal runaway" to describe this, they are perhaps not the best choice. What happens in those batteries is the fuel and the oxidizer are both present inside the battery. So, once the fire starts, it continues with no need for anything from the outside. It is like a solid fuel rocket engine, fuel and oxidizer are mixed together and only need a source of ignition. Solid fuel rockets can not be turned off like liquid fuel ones can by simply closing a valve or stopping a pump. In fact, when some solid fuel missiles needed to have their thrust terminated, the answer was to blow holes in them to vent the burning gases to the sides instead of out the rear. But the solid fuel just continued to burn until it was ALL exhausted. Same thing happens in the batteries. They just keep burning as long as the chemicals (fuel and oxidizer) are still available.





I got tired of it about four minutes in.  It's all speculation, like, "kind of suggests EV thermal runaway", as if that's even a thing. 

Then he spouts falsehoods such as EV battery fires, "can not be stopped".  They can by applying water.  Gasoline fires require foam, because the gasoline floats on water, spreading the flames and making it so much worse.  Battery fires only require water.

This guy is a blowhard, with an obvious ax to grind.  None of the press reports talk about this being caused by EVs.  There were 2,857 cars, including only 25 electric cars.  Zero evidence of any cause, including it being started by an EV. 

I put John Cadogan in the bit bucket some time ago.
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Offline gnuarm

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Perhaps he is not making sense. Perhaps.

But you say, "Battery fires only require water."

So we have a burning ship in the middle of the ocean, which I suspect is mostly water, and they can't put it out. What's wrong with this picture?

What ship, and what fire are you talking about???  You don't use water on gasoline fires.  You use water on lithium-ion battery fires.  Gasoline fires require foam.  Water just floats the gas on top, spreading around on a river of fire.


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And don't tell me that water is not used to put out fires on ships. Sure, enough water could sink a ship, but it does take a lot. Fire control on ships has used water. Perhaps it is not currently the best answer, but it has been used. They even build and employ boats specifically for doing that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireboat

In WWII tons and tons of water was used to fight fires on Navy ships: sometimes successfully and sometimes not. But it was used.

Why are you telling me this?  You seem to have jumped a rail.


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So, perhaps, just perhaps you are also not making complete sense.

Not making sense about what???  I think you are putting words in my mouth.


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The mixed fuel argument seems to make more sense. There are 25 electric vehicles loaded in a ship with well over 1000 gas and diesel powered ones. So, in all likelihood, more than one thing is burning. But I am not a firefighter, so I don't claim to know.

Also, you are not on the ship, so you have no idea.


Quote
As for using the words "thermal runaway" to describe this, they are perhaps not the best choice. What happens in those batteries is the fuel and the oxidizer are both present inside the battery. So, once the fire starts, it continues with no need for anything from the outside. It is like a solid fuel rocket engine, fuel and oxidizer are mixed together and only need a source of ignition. Solid fuel rockets can not be turned off like liquid fuel ones can by simply closing a valve or stopping a pump. In fact, when some solid fuel missiles needed to have their thrust terminated, the answer was to blow holes in them to vent the burning gases to the sides instead of out the rear. But the solid fuel just continued to burn until it was ALL exhausted. Same thing happens in the batteries. They just keep burning as long as the chemicals (fuel and oxidizer) are still available.

No, not true.  Lithium-ion battery fires can be put out with water.  The water lowers the temperature, preventing further ignition.  The fire goes out.
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Offline vad

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Perhaps he is not making sense. Perhaps.

But you say, "Battery fires only require water."

So we have a burning ship in the middle of the ocean, which I suspect is mostly water, and they can't put it out. What's wrong with this picture?

What ship, and what fire are you talking about???  You don't use water on gasoline fires.  You use water on lithium-ion battery fires.  Gasoline fires require foam.  Water just floats the gas on top, spreading around on a river of fire.
They use CO2 on cargo ships.
 

Offline vad

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Several news sources here in NL stated that the cars on the 4 lowest decks seem to be in good condition while the upper decks are a massacre. Also, the EVs are all on the lower decks...
Are these the same news sources that lied about only 25 EVs on board?
 

Offline gnuarm

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Several news sources here in NL stated that the cars on the 4 lowest decks seem to be in good condition while the upper decks are a massacre. Also, the EVs are all on the lower decks...
Are these the same news sources that lied about only 25 EVs on board?

The news was reported from what they were told.  Why does that make it a lie, rather than a mistake by someone? 
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Offline vad

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Several news sources here in NL stated that the cars on the 4 lowest decks seem to be in good condition while the upper decks are a massacre. Also, the EVs are all on the lower decks...
Are these the same news sources that lied about only 25 EVs on board?

The news was reported from what they were told.  Why does that make it a lie, rather than a mistake by someone?
I'm questioning the trustworthiness of the news sources. I don't care if they lied or spread someone's lies or mistakes accidentally or intentionally, without proper fact-checking.

I am also skeptical of the rumor that it was a gasoline fire that couldn't be extinguished with the ship's CO2 fire extinguishers for an entire week.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Several news sources here in NL stated that the cars on the 4 lowest decks seem to be in good condition while the upper decks are a massacre. Also, the EVs are all on the lower decks...
Are these the same news sources that lied about only 25 EVs on board?

The news was reported from what they were told.  Why does that make it a lie, rather than a mistake by someone?
I'm questioning the trustworthiness of the news sources. I don't care if they lied or spread someone's lies or mistakes accidentally or intentionally, without proper fact-checking.

I am also skeptical of the rumor that it was a gasoline fire that couldn't be extinguished with the ship's CO2 fire extinguishers for an entire week.

You are free to be as skeptical as you want. 

Enjoy
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Offline MTTopic starter

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Pictures and analyze starts at 5:30

« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 11:51:36 am by MT »
 

Offline gnuarm

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What's the video equivalent of TL:DR? 

The guy has to start making snarky comments from the get go and attack a made up enemy of "insufferable green evangelists". 

Any time you have to invent an enemy, in order to make up what they are saying, you can't have a very convincing position you are trying to assert.  I don't want to listen to a politician.  I was hoping for facts... you know, information. 

So, 52 seconds in, TL:DW

Either, this guy clearly has an ax to grind, or like so many on Youtube, he's just pandering to his viewers.  Maybe someone can cut out the rhetoric and post a video of the factual content?  Does Youtube have a minimum length requirement?
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Offline PlainName

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Not often I agree with Rick, but on this I am 100% with him :)
 

Offline gnuarm

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Not often I agree with Rick, but on this I am 100% with him :)

I guess that's a sure indication I am totally wrong then.  :( 

 ;)
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Offline vad

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I was hoping for facts... you know, information. 

So, 52 seconds in, TL:DW
If you're looking for the information, you can skip the bashing and embedded ads, and fast forward to 5:28.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 05:29:13 pm by vad »
 

Offline tom66

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I'm skeptical that John can reliably identify the vehicles there.  I think you could only do that if you had mechanical drawings and measured things like the wheelbase and key component locations. 

Could you identify the burnt-out husk of these two vehicles?
https://www.porsche.com/international/models/taycan/taycan-models/taycan-turbo-s/
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/porsche/panamera/2020/photos-exterior/front-view

They look pretty similar to me, in terms of windscreen position, bonnet, doors etc.  The Panamera has an engine -- but it's likely made of aluminum.  Given the condition of the cars, you might not expect to see any aluminum components remaining.

It is very likely the ship had cameras and smoke/fire detection systems that will be studied to determine which vehicle (if any, it could have also been a fire due to the ship itself) initiated the disaster.  Combined with a manifest of when vehicles were loaded, or even better their precise location, and the source could be identified quickly enough.

Not saying it isn't an EV either, just saying this picture really means very little.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Could you identify the burnt-out husk of these two vehicles?

Easy. One is  blue and t'other is white  ;)
 

Offline MTTopic starter

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Offloading Fremantle ROR. Discharging the EV's in bathtub.

 

Offline gnuarm

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This guy is pretty pathetic.  He acknowledges over and over that he knows nothing about EVs or how to put out EV fires, yet, he says things like, "highlights the dangers of electrical vehicles" and talks about how "really difficult to manage" the tarp is.   

To this guy, it all seems to be about the emotional response.   He seems to be pretty much an idiot.
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Offline PlainName

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Why do you think they dump the car in the trough? If it was EV, why would putting it in there start it burning if it hasn't already decided to do that in the time since the ship was on fire? And, if they put it in there to burn out the battery, why couldn't they just disconnect instead, or even leave it until it's down the scrapyard like any other vehicle? The vehicle seemed to be a bit burned, so if the battery was going to be dodgy surely it would have done that at the time or not long after.

If it wasn't EV, what's the purpose of the trough? I initially thought they could jsut drain the tank if there was anything left, but that would still leave fumes. OTOH, IC cars don't tend to spontaneously combust (apart from my Mum's Vauxhall Viva, and that appeared to be a known issue with those).

Many questions, but it is intriguing
 
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Online coppercone2

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what if that was a oil tanker that cracked open
 

Offline gnuarm

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Why do you think they dump the car in the trough? If it was EV, why would putting it in there start it burning if it hasn't already decided to do that in the time since the ship was on fire? And, if they put it in there to burn out the battery, why couldn't they just disconnect instead, or even leave it until it's down the scrapyard like any other vehicle? The vehicle seemed to be a bit burned, so if the battery was going to be dodgy surely it would have done that at the time or not long after.

If it wasn't EV, what's the purpose of the trough? I initially thought they could jsut drain the tank if there was anything left, but that would still leave fumes. OTOH, IC cars don't tend to spontaneously combust (apart from my Mum's Vauxhall Viva, and that appeared to be a known issue with those).

Many questions, but it is intriguing

Much like you, this guy in the video has no answers.  But he's happy to cast aspersions. 

This is very much like the thread on the Titan submersible.  People have very few facts, but "analyze" the crap out of it, without actually knowing what they are talking about.  As I said, the guy in the video is pathetic.
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Offline PlainName

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No theories, then? If we wait until the final report which won't be released to the general public, that still won't detail what that trough business is about. And by that time we'll have forgotten about it and moved on anyway. So some educated guess would be interesting at this point - or are we not interested in thinking at all?

Even if what we think turns out to be wrong, that's a learning experience and (if EEVBlog threads are anything to go by) may well turn up related and unrelated interesting stuff! But since you only want hard facts perhaps you're better off leaving this and similar threads until the authorities send you their reports.
 

Offline gnuarm

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No theories, then? If we wait until the final report which won't be released to the general public, that still won't detail what that trough business is about. And by that time we'll have forgotten about it and moved on anyway. So some educated guess would be interesting at this point - or are we not interested in thinking at all?

Even an "educated" guess still needs to be based on information.  The video had nearly none of that, so I have nothing to base an opinion on, other than guessing.   Anyone can guess. 


Quote
Even if what we think turns out to be wrong, that's a learning experience and (if EEVBlog threads are anything to go by) may well turn up related and unrelated interesting stuff! But since you only want hard facts perhaps you're better off leaving this and similar threads until the authorities send you their reports.

Yes, it probably would be better if I don't criticize public videos for pretending to provide useful information, while actually offering only speculation, far outside the speaker's field of expertise. 
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Offline PlainName

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The video did provide useful (rather, interesting) info. I had no idea something like that trough would be used. And for what? So the video was, in that respect, not too much of a waste of space.

As for the commentary, it's surely better than most in that no-one could ever mistake him for being an expert. Any sensible viewer would turn the sound (and captions) off or just ignore it.

No educated guess then? You know, that's how some things are discovered or invented or figured out, by proposing an idea and having it taken apart. Even if the real purpose doesn't crop up (and, frankly, we likely will never know unless someone involved does an AMA on redit), the idea(s) might find a use in different circumstances.
 


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