Author Topic: Pakistan returned the UH-60 Seals stealth helicopter back to the U.S.A.  (Read 19800 times)

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Offline Leo Bodnar

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I will agree that the US government is on the wrong track.  Our current leaders want to spend their way out of debt.  Somehow that never works for me.

Debt is slavery.  People / govt do not understand that by borrowing heavily they are giving away their future, freedom and rights to the lender.  So much for abolition of slavery...


Offline Mechatrommer

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Debt is slavery.
Debt with interest is.
It's extremely difficult to start life.. one features of nature.. physical laws are mathematical theory of great beauty... You may wonder Why? our knowledge shows that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it. One could describe the situation by saying that... (Paul Dirac)
 


Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Debt is slavery.
Debt with interest is.


I agree, and I will add and the words as excessive greed.

The loans was a tool, that it was created to assist people.
Since the moment that bankers started to misuse the tool,
it became an time bomb, it will explode as all time bombs do,
but the explosion will bring them down too.

Currently there is only one solution.
Zero depth for all, countries and citizens.
And them an general reboot of the banking system, with more fair play this time.
    
 

Offline ngkee22

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I agree, and I will add and the words as excessive greed.

And them an general reboot of the banking system, with more fair play this time.
    

[/quote]

I agree, the greed is out of control.  I've started paying cash for what I need except for housing or vehicles.  If I don't have the cash I don't need it.

I thought that if they let some of the large banks fail, it would allow a reboot of the system.
 

Offline EEVblog

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I will agree that the US government is on the wrong track.  Our current leaders want to spend their way out of debt.  Somehow that never works for me. They keep promising things that just can't happen.  You can't say you will take care of everyone and provide all these services and still cut spending.   Government math models don't make sense.  I think a few buttons are broken on their calculators.

No, their calculators are working just fine, they have it all figured out.
Like all politicians, their calculations are only based on the next election and the financial interest of their backers (hint, that's not the people).
What's the problem with that  ::)

Dave.
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Well lets examine and what mythology has to say about the problem..  ;)

King Midas
http://www.hipark.austin.isd.tenet.edu/mythology/midas.html

 

Offline ngkee22

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Anytime they are running for office they have all the answers.
 

Offline PetrosA

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When it comes to politics, the problem isn't the politicians, as much as we'd like to think so. The problem is the people. There are no special interest groups or shadow powers in any country strong enough to steer policy away from what the public really wants but most of the time the public doesn't really want what's best for them. As an example, when Poland got out from under communism in 1989, there was a core group of people who set certain reforms in motions that were very difficult for the average Pole. When I moved there in 1992, every election revolved around slowing down those reforms and that's how it continued for the next 14 years that I stayed. Those reforms made the difference for that country and they're why Poland isn't a Ukraine today, but people bitched and complained and moaned non-stop and did whatever they could to slow things down.

It all boils down to money in your pocket. We have a huge debt here in the US, but don't raise taxes. That would change our ability to have three, four or five TVs, new iPhones every year, keep one or more cars per person in the household, buy organic shampoo, diapers and dish detergent, buy sheets with HD thread counts, spend $15 billion dollars per year on electronic games (numbers from today's news) and in general have a small minority of the people living a lifestyle that's completely disconnected from reality.
I miss my home I miss my porch, porch
 

Offline the_raptor

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I thought that if they let some of the large banks fail, it would allow a reboot of the system.

The problem is that the modern financial system is based on nothing more then peoples confidence in the system. That is the reason for the "spend our way out of debt" thinking. It actually does work to a certain extent. I mean look at Australia at the moment. We came through the GFC pretty good, and the economy is good now, but peoples belief in the system is shot and so spending is down. That in turn means employers will start cutting jobs soon, which means peoples belief in the system will further deteriorate, which means employers will cut more jobs etc. The system is predicated on people making "rational" individual decisions. Unfortunately under certain conditions those "rational" decisions that are best for the individual will be worst for society and we will be in a failure cascade.
 
It isn't like it was before the industrial revolution where financial collapse would really only effect the upper class because the rest of society was not much above subsistence farming (or at worst could return to subsistence farming). These days we have an incredibly complex system just to supply the basics of life, yet this system is run by nothing but pure fantasy and hope. All it takes is a slight shift in confidence in the system and we will have another multi-decade recession.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 03:21:22 am by the_raptor »
 

Offline Leo Bodnar

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Currently there is only one solution. Zero depth for all, countries and citizens.  And them an general reboot of the banking system, with more fair play this time.

This is not going to happen.  
I have no debts at all.  This was conscious and lifestyle limiting decision but now I am a free man and there is no credit crunch for me.
Why should suddenly someone on state benefit with two houses and two cars bought with liar loans and two-three holidays a year for the last 10 years get a "reset"?
No, crash and burn, baby, and I will laugh from the sidelines.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 08:03:58 am by Leo Bodnar »
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Currently there is only one solution. Zero depth for all, countries and citizens.  And them an general reboot of the banking system, with more fair play this time.

This is not going to happen.  
I have no debts at all.  This was conscious and lifestyle limiting decision but now I am a free man and there is no credit crunch for me.

Well that's an interesting point of view at list.
Well I will pray to God, to not loose your job, because then every bill even if it has printed on it the amount of one single pound,
it will look to you the same as to was a trillion million of pounds.

By the way do you feel that you have any responsibility for the depths that you country has to the rest of the world ?
Because by stealing the profits of the rest of world, so to maintain your economy in better shape, it is a crime too.   
 

Offline Leo Bodnar

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Well that's an interesting point of view at least.
Well I will pray to God, to not loose your job, because then every bill even if it has printed on it the amount of one single pound, it will look to you the same as to was a trillion million of pounds.

Thanks, but I am self-employed, doing what I love to do and my biggest problem is too much business.

Quote
By the way do you feel that you have any responsibility for the depths that you country has to the rest of the world ?  Because by stealing the profits of the rest of world, so to maintain your economy in better shape, it is a crime too.  
LOL. Are you talking about Britain or Russia? I have dual citizenship  Both countries ruled by DHs that royally screwed own and co-depending nations for their own good.

My point is this: average living standards between what we call developed nations vary by maybe a factor of 2-3.  
However inside each country poors live 100+ times worse then the top 1% of the population that by some chance also happen to be people in power.
I'd say to any national patriot: before bragging about how great is (or was) your country, what is your personal share exactly?
You are born into a country by chance [or so I believe] so unless you add something valuable to the pile there is very little value in going on about how great it is.

Kiri, "you" does not mean you personally here. Cheers!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 09:43:45 am by Leo Bodnar »
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Thanks, but I am self-employed, doing what I love to do and my biggest problem is too much business.

Yes nothing personal, do not worry.

Still I have one advice to offer, mostly because I was programed to act as self-employed,
from my own self-employed father.
And this is, start doing savings as much that you can, and keep them away from the bank.
Every disastrous financial change came sudden, and there was not much time for coarse corrections. 

About citizenship I have single, and it will remain so.
No matter the cost.
 

Online Zero999

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Here is one that is.
Thanks. I hate it when people post misleading graphs.

So, yes it does look bad but not as bad as the other graph says.

Quote
So with a few more years of the "War on terror" (incredibly likely with the rampant instability in the middle east) it will equal the height of WWII*. That isn't even considering the ongoing collapse of American manufacturing, the looming social security time bomb, peak oil, China expanding its internal market, possibility of another "Global Financial Crisis" etc.
Are you sure it's because of war on this occasion? The debt was relatively low during the cold war and Vietnam.

The government is probably spending too much because the people want public services the government doesn't have the money to pay for so rather than raising taxation (very unpopular) they borrow more money.


 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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The government is probably spending too much because the people want public services the government doesn't have the money to pay for so rather than raising taxation (very unpopular) they borrow more money.


Oh thanks for the info.  :)
That's how the aircraft carriers with the 2000 people on its one of them called.. " public services "   ;)
 

Offline Leo Bodnar

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Thanks. I hate it when people post misleading graphs.

So, yes it does look bad but not as bad as the other graph says.

Yes, go back to sleep.  Things are great.  Debt as percentage of GDP is still low.  It does not matter that huge chunk of GDP consists of people selling each other overpriced houses or shifting around consumer crap made elsewhere.

Ironically growing national debt is causing some of the GDP growth.

Offline the_raptor

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Here is one that is.
Thanks. I hate it when people post misleading graphs.

So, yes it does look bad but not as bad as the other graph says.

Quote
So with a few more years of the "War on terror" (incredibly likely with the rampant instability in the middle east) it will equal the height of WWII*. That isn't even considering the ongoing collapse of American manufacturing, the looming social security time bomb, peak oil, China expanding its internal market, possibility of another "Global Financial Crisis" etc.
Are you sure it's because of war on this occasion? The debt was relatively low during the cold war and Vietnam.

The government is probably spending too much because the people want public services the government doesn't have the money to pay for so rather than raising taxation (very unpopular) they borrow more money.


Yes, I think my analysis is right. You can see the debt spike from 2002 onwards. The debt FELL during the Clinton years, and the US Democrats are the social welfare party. The problems with social welfare in the US isn't current spending it is unsecured liabilities (ie it has promised old people a lot of services but doesn't have enough money to actually provide these for the boomers and more recent generations).

Military spending after the Cold War ended dropped to almost nothing. They closed a heap of bases, kept wages low, and had little technological development between 1990 and 2000*. Once the War on Terror kicked off suddenly every infantryman had modern night-vision gear and advanced optical scopes that the Brass had nixed the year before. The cost of gear for the average infantryman went for around $5000 USD to $20,000 - $30,000.

The US debt was low during the Cold War and Vietnam because the US economy was a titan. Go look at Detroit in the 70's compared to Detroit today.

* Nearly every major piece of gear in the US arsenal was developed between 1970 - 1980.
 

Offline EEVblog

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When it comes to politics, the problem isn't the politicians, as much as we'd like to think so. The problem is the people. There are no special interest groups or shadow powers in any country strong enough to steer policy away from what the public really wants

Err, try the military industrial complex that Eisenhower tried to warn everyone about, but ultimately came true.
Possibly the biggest problem the US has (financially) is it's massive military budget that it keeps convincing everyone it needs (by fear, and corruption), that's how the system works.

Or try any other major lobby group in the US that has so much power it's not funny - the NRA, Jewish lobby, the big financiers, drug companies etc etc

Dave.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Or try any other major lobby group in the US that has so much power it's not funny - the NRA, Jewish lobby, the big financiers, drug companies etc etc
you WILL NOT see this in tv!
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 11:04:37 am by Mechatrommer »
It's extremely difficult to start life.. one features of nature.. physical laws are mathematical theory of great beauty... You may wonder Why? our knowledge shows that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it. One could describe the situation by saying that... (Paul Dirac)
 

Offline ngkee22

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I'm from Texas, so the NRA is a highly supported organization here.  I was told once there are many more guns in Texas than people.  And it has been that way since the 1800's. This state believes in protecting itself.  I agree with most other people here, I will bury my guns before I let the government come take them.

 

Offline Mechatrommer

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I will bury my guns before I let the government come take them.
mind to fedex one here? :D
It's extremely difficult to start life.. one features of nature.. physical laws are mathematical theory of great beauty... You may wonder Why? our knowledge shows that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it. One could describe the situation by saying that... (Paul Dirac)
 

Offline ngkee22

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well, then I become an arms dealer and may end up with a SEAL team after me.  I don't think I would win in that argument.
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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I will bury my guns before I let the government come take them.
mind to fedex one here? :D

Good one as joke !!
First of all you have to fix the problem,
that Malaysia cannot Fedex one ti-shirt to Europe !!

If you solve that, I will send you one S-300 so to play with your Rigol.  :D
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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just declare it as "Gift" problem will be solved ;)
It's extremely difficult to start life.. one features of nature.. physical laws are mathematical theory of great beauty... You may wonder Why? our knowledge shows that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it. One could describe the situation by saying that... (Paul Dirac)
 


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