Author Topic: Paypal policy update  (Read 10064 times)

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Offline soldar

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2019, 04:34:59 pm »
There are lots of independent payment processors already. They're all different and they all compete with each other keeping the fees low. Just select the one you like.

My impression, maybe somewhat misinformed, is that in North America and in China there are a few (non-credit card) payment processors and it works well because they are few and most people and establishments use them so they are all compatible. I know in China almost everybody has and takes Wechat and Aliexpress and many upscale places take Applepay. They are extremely easy to set up and use. Your mobile phone is your wallet where you can keep money and make payments. If I want to pay you 5 yuan I just scan your phone with mine, put in the amount and click send.

But my impression of Europe is that the market is very fragmented by countries, by banks, etc. so it is not really so useful. In Spain there are several outfits but none is really universal and forget it if you want to send money to another country.

IMHO Europe is way behind America and China in two things which are very important for trade and development: payments and shipping. In America and in China you can buy online and pay easily with little cost and ship things easily and with little cost. Europe is way behind the ball here. It is easier and cheaper for me to buy stuff in China than to buy it from the EU and that makes no sense.

I also often buy things from America and while paying is easy the shipping to Spain is too expensive so I have purchases shipped to my agent in the USA and she brings them to Spain when she comes.  China have set up that shipping system where they can ship to America and Europe very cheaply.

The EU really need to get payments and shipping made cheap and easy among different countries.

And all this "prevention of money laundering" BS has gotten out of hand. If I go into a bank to deposit 5 EUR to a bank account I need to show ID and they will make a photocopy and keep it in their files. The stupidity of the bureaucrats needs a log scale to be measured.
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Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2019, 04:42:06 pm »
I haven't had a single return or refund for over 15 years. I've sold around 2000 items £5 to £10k in value each.

This 100% depends how you run your selling outfit.

Eh, no? Nobody (or, well, very few people) will bother to lodge a complaint for a low value item. In addition, I assume the risk of your stuff getting damaged during transport is close to non-existing. If you sell stuff like scopes, rf gens and whatnot like I do, the occasional refunds or partial refunds *do* happen.

And yes, this policy change pisses me of. It's not like they're not making any money of me already...
 

Offline NorthGuy

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2019, 05:06:29 pm »
The EU really need to get payments and shipping made cheap and easy among different countries.

Don't you have free SEPA bank transfers across EU? Where you can just scan QR code with your phone, press a button and money got sent instantly? Pretty much the same as AliPay?

Here, in Canada, there's a system of money transfers through e-mail, which works instantly and costs only $1 to send (free to receive).

With credit cards too. In the 90-s you had to pay $400 to set up a merchant account plus $400 for software, also $35 monthly fees. Now you can start accepting credit cards without any setup fees.

So, things are moving, perhaps not as fast as we would want to.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2019, 05:21:50 pm »
I haven't had a single return or refund for over 15 years. I've sold around 2000 items £5 to £10k in value each.

This 100% depends how you run your selling outfit.

Count yourself lucky because no matter how well you do things there are many idiots in the world who feel entitled to very unreasonable things. There are many entitled idiots in the world and they are everywhere. They are in the streets driving, they are passengers in airlines, they are everywhere. And some of them are buyers or sellers online.

I have never sold on eBay precisely because I do not want to run the risk of running into such people. My purchases on eBay in general have been good experiences. A couple of times I did not receive the thing and I got a prompt refund. When I have had a question or complaint I have always contacted the seller nicely explaining the situation and proposing what I would consider an acceptable resolution. All Chinese sellers have been very nice and I have never had a problem.  Some months ago I bought a bicycle foot pump and when it arrived the pump worked but the pressure gauge did not. I messaged the seller proposing several solutions and he chose to refund me half the price I had paid.

I only recall one time, long time ago, I had a problem with some American woman who turned out to be rude and crazy. I forget the details but it was like it was a birthday present for somebody (time sensitive) and she shipped the wrong item and then the right item arrived way past due date.  She would send me messages like:
Code: [Select]
 So I did not ship for over a week!

Hello?

I already told you my mother is in the hospital. What do you want me to do? Leave her so you can have your item?

Hello?
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Offline soldar

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2019, 06:46:32 pm »
Don't you have free SEPA bank transfers across EU? Where you can just scan QR code with your phone, press a button and money got sent instantly? Pretty much the same as AliPay?


Not that I am aware of. SEPA transfers are neither free nor simple. Maybe others can chime in on this.

In China I use WechatPay. Wechat is the equivalent of Whatsapp and is what I use for chatting, sending photos, etc. and also for paying in China. Everybody has it. And I mean *everybody*.

Let me describe how it is in China.  After lunch my wife decides we should go to a department store and get me a coat. We go out and rent two bikes by scanning the QR code on them. The (tiny) payment is automatically processed by Wechat without any cost to us or further need to do anything. At the department store/mall we release (lock) the bikes and go inside. Once we decide the purchase we go to the register where there are visible logos of payment forms they accept and we are asked how we would like to pay. We say Wechat and the register prints out a ticket with a QR code which I scan and pay. The register instantly receives confirmation of the payment. No cost or commission for the payment. I suppose the merchants pay it.

We cross the street to a big park where a food vendor with a cart has a QR code visible. We ask for some cold soy beverage, we scan the QR code, input the (small) amount manually and click "send". The vendor could, of course, check her own account to confirm but  just looks at our phone to confirm and is satisfied.

A barber is working on the sidewalk and I decide to get a haircut. For some reason he thinks I am Russian. I guess in years past pretty much all foreigners there were Russians. Same thing: scan QR code, input amount, hit send and show the barber.

Uh, oh, we are having dinner with the wife's family at a restaurant and time is short. We call a DD car (like Uber) and also pay using Wechat. 

At the (more upscale) restaurant we get a printed bill which we scan and pay, like at the department store. In lower-end places you just scan their Wechat ID and input the amount manually.

My wife's family insist on sharing the bill and transfer (something) to her Wechat account which they don't need to scan because they already have it.

So the system is extremely simple and convenient, costs nothing and is good for all payments, big or small.

Nothing in Spain comes even close to this. Bank transfers are a pain and cost money. Credit cards are a pain in several ways. And there is no convenient way to just pay small amounts to a friend or a small vendor.

I guess a regular credit card offers things that Paypal or Wechat don't like credit, security of transactions (you cannot charge back on Wechat that I know of) but the convenience is unequalled.

This is just one aspect where IMHO China is way ahead of us. I think many people never got used to banking. They went directly from using only cash to using smartphones. I would think most people in China have never used a check in their lives.

Quote
https://transferwise.com/help/article/1663579/euro-transfers/what-are-sepa-transfers

 Per EU regulations, transfers between bank accounts in two different SEPA countries shouldn’t cost any more than a regular, local transfer. Some banks, mostly Italian or Spanish, will still find ways to charge you extra.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 06:53:55 pm by soldar »
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Offline bd139

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2019, 07:04:58 pm »
That's how it should be really. Honestly I think the modern parts of China are way ahead as a society. Unfortunately how they got there wasn't necessarily good but that's another topic.

This is similar to using contactless cards / Apple Pay etc in London. I did the whole day out just with apple pay. All public transport in London and 99% of shops accept it. Just jump on, zap it and at the end of the day you get a charge for where you went capped by a max daily amount.
 

Offline legacy

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2019, 07:43:14 pm »
There are lots of independent payment processors already. They're all different and they all compete with each other keeping the fees low. Just select the one you like.

I am on "N26" now. It's experimental, but it looks nice :D
It accepts money to cash and to/from Paypal with interesting low fees.
 

Offline legacy

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2019, 08:08:17 pm »
As far as I am concerned Paypal are crooks.

they are not crooks, the policy is public, you can agree with them, and use their service, or not.
the truth is: they are expensive, their policy is ... not friendly if you are the seller.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2019, 08:10:31 pm »
Also they are a lot more friendly than the average payment merchant.
 

Offline legacy

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2019, 08:12:54 pm »
In China I use WechatPay. Wechat is the equivalent of Whatsapp and is what I use for chatting, sending photos, etc. and also for paying in China. Everybody has it. And I mean *everybody*.

Let me describe how it is in China.  After lunch my wife decides we should go to a department store and get me a coat. We go out and rent two bikes by scanning the QR code on them. The (tiny) payment is automatically processed by Wechat without any cost to us or further need to do anything.

Here in the north of Italy, what you have described above is the equivalent for "N26", which also pays for the Tube.

But, hear me: here it's extremely experimental, and only works in Milan :D
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2019, 07:30:22 pm »
they are not crooks, the policy is public, you can agree with them, and use their service, or not.
the truth is: they are expensive, their policy is ... not friendly if you are the seller.


Read what they did to me. Then took my money and then changed their requirements and blocked my account. Sorry. They are crooks.

I opened an account with whatever conditions they had at the time. They never asked me for additional requirements. Then they took money out of my bank account and immediately blocked my money and caused me many problems. Crooks is what they are.
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Offline JwallingTopic starter

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2019, 10:35:34 am »
I'm surprised that nobody posted about this yet
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-full

Specifically:

Quote
We’re changing how we treat refunds. If you refund (partially or fully) a transaction to a buyer or a donation to a donor, there are no fees to make the refund, but the fees you originally paid as the seller will not be returned to you.

Ouch! That's going to have a huge impact on Ebay sellers till Paypal is phased out... :--

So far, I've had to take two returns for buyer idiocy, and I lost the fees paid to Paypal.

1. A pair of 10:1 passive probes which the buyer bought for his DSO80000B series scope which has 50Ohm inputs only.  :palm: $10. ($20 including return shipping.)

2. A scope which sold for about $950. The reason the buyer gave:
Quote
Scope works just fine. Its not a good fit for our lab.
Another $30 bucks or so. And I get to pay for return shipping 2 day priority mail 35LBS 2500 miles... |O

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Offline james_s

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2019, 03:54:15 pm »
Wow that sucks. I've been very close to just stopping selling on eBay altogether, this is enough to push me over that edge. Between the exorbitant fees including fees on shipping that I buy through eBay (so they know exactly how much I paid) and the extreme bias in favor of buyers it's just not worth it anymore.
 

Offline Daixiwen

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2019, 07:55:42 am »
Quote
Scope works just fine. Its not a good fit for our lab.
Did he meant he only wants broken equipment in his lab?
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2019, 08:03:29 am »
Why would you pay return shipping, let alone refund, for what amounts to a change of mind?

I'm reasonably accommodating but even for me that's a bit on the nose.

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Offline soldar

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2019, 08:34:15 am »
Why would you pay return shipping, let alone refund, for what amounts to a change of mind?

I'm reasonably accommodating but even for me that's a bit on the nose.

Well, it depends on what the seller offers. The seller can specify no returns accepted but if the seller says the buyer can return the item for any reason or no reason then the seller can return the item for any reason or no reason. Shoppers at brick and mortar stores have come to expect this even though it costs the stores a lot because most returned items cannot be sold and have to be returned to the manufacturer or distributor. This costs the stores a lot but they take the loss because they believe it gains them customers in the big picture.

A seller on eBay can do it for the same reason but then they are stuck if they have to many returns by capricious customers. That's part of the risk. You don't have to offer it though. You can state that all sales are final. Many eBay sellers do that.
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Offline NorthGuy

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2019, 01:04:03 pm »
Why would you pay return shipping, let alone refund, for what amounts to a change of mind?

You can offer lots of incentives - free returns, free shipping, discounts ... You have to pay for the incentives, but if it brings you more sales (or more popularity among buyers, or whatever), it may be beneficial for you in the end.
 

Offline vtwin@cox.net

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2019, 11:11:51 am »
If a buyer files a return request, and it gets escalated to eBay (because you refuse to accept the return), then the probability is close to 100% they will generate a return shipping label for the buyer and have him/her return it to you, and bill your eBay account for the shipping and the refund.

There is no such thing as “returns not accepted” on eBay.

I recently got burned for about $10 in shipping and fees on two $25 items which clearly in the description said they were “new” but included the item only and nothing else (e.g. they were new and had been removed from the box and the box/material discarded). The buyer initiated a return because they were not in a retail box.

I’ve come to the conclusion buyers read the title and look at the picture and price and never read the item description. It doesn’t help that ebay’s mobile presentation makes the description almost impossible to find as eBay has this annoying “feature” of displaying a lot of pre-established vendor info about the item you’re selling, general reviews about the product, etc. It takes extra clicks on your phone to actually find the item’s detailed description narrative.

My eBay selling days are just about over. I have about a dozen items currently listed, and once they’re gone I doubt I’ll be listing much of anything else (I do not sell as a business). Too much aggravation for too little reward.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2019, 11:14:17 am »
Yeah there is. Spares/repair is not returnable. Someone tried to scam me for a scope corpse I sold saying it didn’t work and eBay+PayPal sided with me because it clearly said so in the auction.

If it works and you know it will remain working for at least 6 months and you accept returns = used.

Anything else = spares/repair.

I never list anything as new even if sealed. Open it and take it out of the packaging, record the serial numbers and sell it used.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2019, 12:50:01 pm »
There is no such thing as “returns not accepted” on eBay.

You are mistaken as a brief search will prove. You are free to list items as "non returnable, sale is final".

Of course, the item must match the description. You cannot ship something that does not meet the description and then say "ha, ha, gotcha!".

It just like in the real world. No business is obligated to accept returns just because the buyer changed their mind but they cannot sell you a faulty item represented as in working condition. In other words, you cannot misrepresent your offer because that would be fraud but you can definitely make sales final and not accept returns.
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Offline vtwin@cox.net

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2019, 06:42:56 pm »
Sorry, we will have to agree to disagree, because my experience says just the opposite.

I will admit I do not sell items listed as “not working” or “for repair/parts” etc so eBay may have a different viewpoint on those items, but every item I list on eBay I do so with “returns not accepted” and I have still been forced to accept a return (and pay for the return shipping) — case in point, this recent incident with the item I sold which was new but not in a retail box (and stated such in the description) which eBay forced me to accept a return on.

Perhaps they have a different attitude if you are a power seller and are paying thousands in fees each month.

I imagine it may also have something to do with the category you are selling in as well, as some items may not be inherently returnable (such as, say, a piece of software which includes a license code).
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2019, 06:50:27 pm »
There is often confusion between a return for not being as described and one for some other reason.

eBay Buyer Protection enables the buyer to return an item if it isn't as described, regardless what the seller's return policy is. The seller then has to refund the total cost to the buyer when they return the item, including shipping, and the seller has to pay for the return shipping cost, too.

What happens with other return reasons depends on the seller's return policy. If they say no returns, then the buyer has to keep it.

For example, I sold a hard drive that worked just fine and was listed as used with "seller does not accept returns", but the buyer changed their mind and opened a return request saying that their kid had bought the drive and they wanted to return it. I immediately phoned eBay to shut down that nonsense and the agent closed the case on the spot.

Be very careful with setting condition as "New." Lacking the retail box doesn't qualify as new. "New (other)" may work, but may still be risky.

Quote from: eBay
New
A brand-new, unused, unopened, undamaged item in its original packaging (where packaging is applicable). Packaging should be the same as what is found in a retail store, unless the item is handmade or was packaged by the manufacturer in non-retail packaging, such as an unprinted box or plastic bag. See the seller's listing for full details.
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Offline soldar

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2019, 10:36:52 am »
Sorry, we will have to agree to disagree, because my experience says just the opposite.

I am the first to say eBay/Paypal can be unfair and difficult to deal with but from what you describe it sounds to me like it was your mistake and you did not bother to learn from it. Did you bother to ask exactly why you were forced to take it back?  Other people seem to navigate selling on eBay without accepting returns.

You have to be thorough and meticulous. You can't just do a shoddy listing and then complain about it not working out like you wanted.

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Offline vtwin@cox.net

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2019, 11:41:27 am »
Sorry, we will have to agree to disagree, because my experience says just the opposite.

I am the first to say eBay/Paypal can be unfair and difficult to deal with but from what you describe it sounds to me like it was your mistake and you did not bother to learn from it. Did you bother to ask exactly why you were forced to take it back?  Other people seem to navigate selling on eBay without accepting returns.

You have to be thorough and meticulous. You can't just do a shoddy listing and then complain about it not working out like you wanted.

I am quite meticulous in my listings, not only in my item description where I disclose every imperfection but I take numerous photos of the items I sell, and fully document an item's condition. I've been selling on eBay since the late 90's (I've been selling since the days you could leave feedback for another eBayer without actually having a transaction with them.) I am a casual seller, I do not sell to make a living and it isn't a business for me. In the 20+ years I've been on eBay my feedback rating is still in 3 digits.

I specifically stated in my listing the item was new, had been removed from its box and the box and accompanying material thrown away, but then had never been installed. So it was "new, without box", which would be akin to "new without tags" in the clothing area.

The reason for the return was it did not include the retail box. I refused the return, and eBay sided with the buyer.

Fortunately in this case, it was a small item and the shipping charges were negligible, but on a $25 item where I had to pay $7 r/t shipping, I "lost" over 25% of the item's value just in the shipping charges alone, and now tack on the paypal fees I do not get reimbursed. I immediately re-listed the item and it re-sold within a few days to someone who actually read the item description and has since left positive feedback he's happy with the item. It is pretty clear, IMO, either 1) the buyer simply changed his mind, or 2) he didn't read the item description itself, but relied on the pre-filled in data eBay shows when you look for an item specifically by vendor name and product code.

About a year ago I sold a used laptop for $150 which a buyer had for two months, after which they opened a claim the item was "not as described" and likewise eBay forced the return. In that case I was out over $30 in shipping (bi-directional) and when I received the returned item it was functioning 100%, so it was apparent either the buyer changed his mind or found a "better deal" somewhere else.

It's pretty common knowledge these days if you want to return an item, for whatever reason, you simply file an 'item not as described' complaint and claim the item doesn't work, and the return will be granted.

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Offline soldar

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Re: Paypal policy update
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2019, 12:04:25 pm »
I specifically stated in my listing the item was new, had been removed from its box and the box and accompanying material thrown away, but then had never been installed. So it was "new, without box", which would be akin to "new without tags" in the clothing area.

The reason for the return was it did not include the retail box. I refused the return, and eBay sided with the buyer.

While I can understand your frustration it seems you put it in the wrong category if "new" has to include the box. You cannot put an item in a category which requires X and then disclaim X in the description. Now you know for next time.

I have seen items offered which disclaimed in the text things claimed in the title. I do not even attribute it to bad faith but you just can't do that. Would you be happy if you bought a car only to find out later the small print says tires, steering wheel and doors are extra?

If eBay says "New" means it includes the box then a buyer is not obligated to find you disclaim that somewhere in the description. You should have listed it as used or whatever fits best.  You gave the buyer the loophole.

Again, I can understand your frustration and I sympathize but if you learn from this you will not have the same problem again. If you had listed it correctly you would not have been obligated to take it back.
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