Perpetual Motion

[niky518]

Hi!

Is this possible?

watch from 11:48

[GeoffS]

No.

[digsys]

Another NUT JOB !! If only he had 5points less IQ, he could be a politician.

[onlooker]

Dave,
 Can you ban/remove this thread/topic? It is a waste of time for anyone come here.

[Simon]

The guy is an attention seeking crackpot. He is spewing out gibberish and playing the same old card all the fraudsters do: the one simple trick the powers at be want to hide from us. This guy needs to put a bullet in his own head and save the planet the resources he will use up during his lifetime as he is clearly just a waste of space.

[G7PSK]

Just another charlatan!

[chrome]

This guy needs to put a bullet in his own head...

Yeah that's an appropriate response...

[Mechatrommer]

Dave, Can you ban/remove this thread/topic? It is a waste of time for anyone come here.

how about the snake oil thread? fyi: its now sticky!

[Simon]

Dave, Can you ban/remove this thread/topic? It is a waste of time for anyone come here.

how about the snake oil thread? fyi: its now sticky!

Keep your pants on! I'm putting money on the OP being the crack pot video author. So either he will get the hint or it will get "interesting" probably ending in his banning. At which point the thread will be removed.

[SeanB]

Got the popcorn handy Simon? I have watched some amazing flame wars.......... of course on the boards I monitored they went to the bit bucket, I was the BOFH and only approved posts I liked or wanted sent out. Basically 1 a week to the list............ 999 Spam of course.

[Simon]

yep popcorn at the ready and sitting comfy, safe in the knowledge I have the row of big red detonator buttons in comfy arms reach 

[SeanB]

As long as the popcorn is not Monsanto, and you are using unsalted butter, along with some nice sweet chilli. Also works well with nice toasted garlic in the butter as well, nice big chunks, fried till smoky brown.

[niky518]

Can someone explain why this is not possible? All just spam and say that is not possible, some explanation pls    sorry on my bad english...

[Simon]

Can someone explain why this is not possible? All just spam and say that is not possible, some explanation pls    sorry on my bad english...

you english was good enough in the video..... Tell me what exactly was explained in the video. It is not possible because nothing was explained, just a list of "big" words.

[IanB]

Can someone explain why this is not possible? All just spam and say that is not possible, some explanation pls    sorry on my bad english...

The power companies that generate electricity have to pay money for the fuel (gas or coal) to generate that electricity. The cost of the fuel is huge and limits how much profit they can make. If the power companies could find a way to generate electricity without having to buy fuel to feed the generators their profits would become astronomical and they would all be doing it. Since they are not doing it, there is clearly a bit of a snag in the "free electricity" theory.

[niky518]

[/quote]you english was good enough in the video[/quote]

loool, I'm not made that video!

[chrome]

Can someone explain why this is not possible? All just spam and say that is not possible, some explanation pls    sorry on my bad english...

The reason you can't get energy for free is "conservation of energy".

You can't get more energy out of something than you put into it.

Lets say for example you power a motor using 1kW of electrical energy, if you couple this motor to a generator, it's impossible to get more than 1kW out of this generator.

In theory it's even impossible to get close to this 1kW since you have to account for losses (friction in bearings that gets converted to heat, heat because of the resistance of wires, etc etc).
The energy has to come from somewhere.

[IanB]

The law of conservation of energy (maybe conservation of mass-energy) is an interesting one.

There is no actual proof available, it is just something supported by every experiment ever performed. One has to assume it is true given the weight of experimental evidence, but one day someone might discover an exception. However, such an exception if found would be incredibly hidden and certainly not accessible to anyone with normal apparatus like coils and magnets.

[benemorius]

However, such an exception if found would be incredibly hidden and certainly not accessible to anyone with normal apparatus like coils and magnets.

Careful now. It's dangerous to go around imposing restrictions like that without due caution. A great many apparently magical things (though of course not all) become highly accessible once they're understood. The list of incredible-yet-true scientific principles that can be tested at home is actually enormous.

Thousands of years ago, hardly anyone could have guessed that by simply drawing out a length of copper wire and jiggling a bunch of it at one end, one could watch a bunch of it at the other end magically jiggle around in a similar fashion, yet that's exactly what would have happened had anyone been silly or gullible enough to try such a stupid thing.

[NiHaoMike]

Let's first separate perpetual motion from free energy. (Nearly) Perpetual motion is indeed possible - the Earth has been orbiting the Sun for over 4.5 billion years - but you can't extract energy from it and still have perpetual motion.

Free energy is possible as well, although the devices to extract such energy are not free and there are limitations. Solar energy is already practical in some areas, but not in others. Same with wind energy.

[KTP]

if you get into the theoretical physics (multiverse stuff) then maybe conservation of energy can breakdown (or seem to break down if somehow the energy is flowing from another universe).  Better ask Hawking, hell if I know.

[IanB]

Careful now. It's dangerous to go around imposing restrictions like that without due caution. A great many apparently magical things (though of course not all) become highly accessible once they're understood. The list of incredible-yet-true scientific principles that can be tested at home is actually enormous.

In areas that are not well understood the scope for discovery remains. But the theory of electromagnetism is understood in great detail and has comprehensive experimental verification. There simply isn't any room for someone to find an unexplained phenomenon when playing around with magnets and wires any more. There is no danger at all in saying this. The only people who think there is some "magic" left to find are the people who don't understand the physics.

It's absolutely true that you can test many incredible scientific principles at home and everybody should. Don't take other people's word for it just because you read it in a text book. But at the same time, I can predict without fear of contradiction that every home experiment properly performed will attest to the conservation of energy, and every home experiment likewise will verify the equations of Maxwell, Lorentz, Einstein and quantum electrodynamics. The mystery is gone. The way the universe works in this particular area is completely understood and there isn't the tiniest nook or cranny left for anyone to discover.

[Mechatrommer]

...understood in great detail

is that means... understood in all details?

The way the universe works in this particular area is completely understood and there isn't the tiniest nook or cranny left for anyone to discover.

what about higgs bosson? the constituent (at least only predicted) of "everything".

[IanB]

is that means... understood in all details?

Basically, yes.

what about higgs bosson? the constituent (at least only predicted) of "everything".

The Higg's boson is not part of electromagnetism. It has nothing to do with free energy from magnets and wires.

[Mechatrommer]

The Higg's boson is not part of electromagnetism. It has nothing to do with free energy from magnets and wires.

why is that? mass create magnetism. mass is constituted by atoms. atoms are constituted by protons and electrons, down to higgs bosson? am i wrong?

anyway i never saw the proof of those Maxwell, Lorentz, Einstein in hard paper, so i musnt have faith in them jk.

[IanB]

am i wrong?

Yes.

anyway i never saw the proof of those Maxwell, Lorentz, Einstein in hard paper, so i musnt have faith in them jk.

Electricity and electromagnetism are understood completely, with a capital "C". There is nothing left that is mysterious about it. That is how engineers can design electric generators and hard disk drives and microchips and TV transmitters and radars and microwave ovens and cell phones with fractal antennas and who knows what else, and why all that stuff works. It's a done deal. A solved problem. All wrapped up and tied up neatly with a bow on top.

If anyone makes a YouTube video claiming to have some clever discovery with motors and generators and magnets and wires, it only proves that (a) they have not studied physics at university level, and (b) they don't have the mental capacity to study physics at university level.

[HardBoot]

I made a perpetual motion machine once.

Two mirrors facing each other.

It'd work perfectly if the pesky light didn't escape or get absorbed.

[nitro2k01]

The power companies that generate electricity have to pay money for the fuel (gas or coal) to generate that electricity. The cost of the fuel is huge and limits how much profit they can make. If the power companies could find a way to generate electricity without having to buy fuel to feed the generators their profits would become astronomical and they would all be doing it. Since they are not doing it, there is clearly a bit of a snag in the "free electricity" theory.

But you don't get it. If we didn't have to work, then our reptilian alien overlords wouldn't have any way to keep us enslaved!

Yes, sarcasm. Phew!

[Obi_Kwiet]

Let's first separate perpetual motion from free energy. (Nearly) Perpetual motion is indeed possible - the Earth has been orbiting the Sun for over 4.5 billion years - but you can't extract energy from it and still have perpetual motion.

That's not perpetual motion, it's just motion that lasts for a long time compared to us. However, the universe will still be very young compared to it's total lifetime when the earth stops spinning the sun. The sun earth system has a lot of energy and is very efficient, but it can't last forever by a long shot. It is slowing down as we speak.

[nitro2k01]

I think NiHaoMike was pointing out the principal difference between the terms. Something arbitrarily close to perpetual motion could exist, given an arbitrarily good vacuum with of an arbitrarily big size, with a spinning object in the middle. That's an energy preservation ratio or conversion ratio approaching (but in every practical scenario never reaching) 1. That's theoretically possible.
Free energy on the other hand means a conversion ratio >1 which is definitely not possible.

[niky518]

Did someone try this?

[IanB]

Did someone try this?

It's a motor. Anyone can make a motor with coils and magnets. If you are wondering where the battery is, it is hidden.

[Monkeh]

'hidden' at the end of the wire which is badly blurred out.

[KTP]

Did someone try this?

Nope..was too busy doing this:

[AntiProtonBoy]

niky518, read a good physics book. All your answers are in there.

[Mechatrommer]

i lost my pack of neomedium magnets earlier now i got another pack off ebay. faith i think i will figure that out when i dealt with reality.

[Ferroto]

Let's first separate perpetual motion from free energy. (Nearly) Perpetual motion is indeed possible - the Earth has been orbiting the Sun for over 4.5 billion years - but you can't extract energy from it and still have perpetual motion.

Free energy is possible as well, although the devices to extract such energy are not free and there are limitations. Solar energy is already practical in some areas, but not in others. Same with wind energy.

False stars eventually exhaust their energy and energy lost in the form of light will eventually leave the universe never to be used again. Stars will also loose mass as they age which will cause earth to break away from orbit around our sun assuming we haven't turned into a red giant by then which would cause earth to be swallowed up by the sun.

[Mechatrommer]

False stars eventually exhaust their energy and energy lost in the form of light will eventually leave the universe never to be used again.

you are contradicting with "conservation of energy" law.

Stars will also loose mass as they age which will cause earth to break away from orbit around our sun assuming we haven't turned into a red giant by then which would cause earth to be swallowed up by the sun.

such statement dictates (as i translate it) 2 things. (1) there's no such thing as "perpetual", only either the universe or the "***". and free energy is actually... "everywhere"! (for our case is the "sun", thats the obvious one)

[G7PSK]

Careful now. It's dangerous to go around imposing restrictions like that without due caution. A great many apparently magical things (though of course not all) become highly accessible once they're understood. The list of incredible-yet-true scientific principles that can be tested at home is actually enormous.

In areas that are not well understood the scope for discovery remains. But the theory of electromagnetism is understood in great detail and has comprehensive experimental verification. There simply isn't any room for someone to find an unexplained phenomenon when playing around with magnets and wires any more. There is no danger at all in saying this. The only people who think there is some "magic" left to find are the people who don't understand the physics.

It's absolutely true that you can test many incredible scientific principles at home and everybody should. Don't take other people's word for it just because you read it in a text book. But at the same time, I can predict without fear of contradiction that every home experiment properly performed will attest to the conservation of energy, and every home experiment likewise will verify the equations of Maxwell, Lorentz, Einstein and quantum electrodynamics. The mystery is gone. The way the universe works in this particular area is completely understood and there isn't the tiniest nook or cranny left for anyone to discover.

The Lorenz condition is under close scrutiny at the present due to some work at the university of Geneva, So any one who can detect the longitudinal mode and the temporal mode of photons might also find the answer to free energy. There is only one small difficulty the aerial will need to be longer than the observable universe.   

[niky518]

Here's another

watch from 2:24

[KTP]

This thread and others like it are proof that perpetual stupidity has advanced from hypothesis to fact.

[madworm]

Looks like a very complicated design.

I would at least have expected the most obvious thing to do: put it in a vacuum chamber to eliminate air friction. But maybe that was too expensive, although 10^-3 to 10^-4 mbar would have been enough to get rid of most of the drag.

The process of building these mechanisms is surely quite rewarding, the desired goal however is out of reach.

[Simon]

Here's another

watch from 2:24

why did you want us to skip the beginning showing he is a nutter. There is a contradiction. They say it is 80-90% efficient and then say it has to be 101% efficient to be perpetual.

Don't confuse perpetual motion with free energy. Our earth spins and goes around the sun in perpetual motion. If you can build a machine with no loss it will be perpetual, that does not mean you will get energy out of it. as soon as you try to extract energy from the system it stops being perpetual.

As far as I know there is a law that says that nothing is destroyed and nothing is created, everything is transformed (goes for matter and energy).

What about this secret pendulum in the column of the machine, where there is no room for one to swing. Oh didn't he tell you ? there is a giant spring in there that gives off jut enough energy to overcome the losses due to friction of any kind......

[KTP]

Did you see this one?  It looks far far easier to build and has similar "perpetual motion"

I suggest the OP go to toys r us and get some parts and solve the world's energy problems!

[Simon]

erm it uses power and they admit it, no dodgy claims. but I like the spare cog hanging out the back 

[KTP]

erm it uses power...

Damn it Simon, you just ruined (and debunked) every single one of these perpetual motion claims.

What a spoilsport...

[niky518]

Here's another

watch from 2:24

why did you want us to skip the beginning showing he is a nutter. There is a contradiction. They say it is 80-90% efficient and then say it has to be 101% efficient to be perpetual.

So what? Still better than today's engines or generators that have 15 - 50 % efficiency

[AntiProtonBoy]

So what? Still better than today's engines or generators that have 15 - 50 % efficiency

Then build it and make lots of money out if it!!

Why is it that people proposing such contraptions were never successful at going to market?

[Psi]

To be fair... a perpetual motion machine cannot exist by definition but a machine could exist which gets its energy from somewhere unknown to current science.
Such a machine would appear to be a perpetual motion machine until the source of the energy was identified.

This possibility means we shouldn't instantly assume every single claim of perpetual motion is wrong, doing so could delay a major scientific discovery.

However, it would be safe to say that the chances of finding a legit machine are less than winning the lottery.
And the cost of actually investigating every claim would be stupidly expensive.

I guess i'm just saying, keep an open mind.

[HardBoot]

So what? Still better than today's engines or generators that have 15 - 50 % efficiency

Then build it and make lots of money out if it!!
Why is it that people proposing such contraptions were never successful at going to market?
[/quote]I could make a cheap and unlimited source of energy however the government would go after me because it uses fission instead of fusion.
Pesky anti-nuclear peasants and big industry.

[AntiProtonBoy]

Psi - Look we are not talking about phenomena and theories that are at the cutting edge of particle physics. People who are actually taking part in such discussions tend to be employed by the likes of CERN and are not preoccupied with posting shitty pseudo-science youtube videos.

So far, all of these contraptions are built on physics that is easily attainable on a human scale and is well understood. And yet, those devices are supposed to be special somehow and draw on physical phenomena that is beyond our understanding.

The last time we succeeded to interact with physical phenomena (in some controlled fashion) that is beyond our full understanding required a machine with a price tag of 7.5 billion euros; manned by 2400 full time employees, 1500 part time staff, many of them backed with with a resumes, PhDs and engineering qualifications that is beyond my wildest dreams.

Forgive me if my mind is not particularly open in that respect.

[Things]

So what? Still better than today's engines or generators that have 15 - 50 % efficiency

Dunno where you pulled this from, permanent magnet generators can be a good 80% efficient.

What these nutjobs really need to be doing is finding new ways to make green energy devices more durable, such as better bearings. The typical service life of a wind turbine is around 20 years, which, in that time, they well and truly pay for themselves, however if you could tack a couple more years lifetime onto them, then we'd really have something going.

Power from the wind, sun, ocean, rivers, geothermal etc is all free after the initial investment costs. Extend the lifetimes of the machines and your operating costs are a heap lower too.

[Psi]

Psi - Look we are not talking about phenomena and theories that are at the cutting edge of particle physics. People who are actually taking part in such discussions tend to be employed by the likes of CERN and are not preoccupied with posting shitty pseudo-science youtube videos.
Forgive me if my mind is not particularly open in that respect.

We are still discovering new things from common household items.
Look at the whole sticky-tape produces X-rays thing.

[AntiProtonBoy]

It's not new physics that will rewrite textbooks, nor will it change our fundamental understanding of our world. Triboluminescence has been observed for centuries.

[Psi]

It's not new physics that will rewrite textbooks, nor will it change our fundamental understanding of our world. Triboluminescence has been observed for centuries.

It doesn't have to be new physics, just something new that may have applications that could change the world.

[FlyingBrickyard]

So what? Still better than today's engines or generators that have 15 - 50 % efficiency

Then build it and make lots of money out if it!!

Why is it that people proposing such contraptions were never successful at going to market?

Even putting all of that aside, what does it do?

So a ball goes around a track... BFD.  How are you going to get anything useful out of that, even if it were 100% efficient? (which it can't be).  Even if that were possible, how would it be adapted and applied into something useful without screwing up the delicate balance that allows it to "work"?  In what possible way could it scale into anything worthwhile?

This is where the reality of thermodynamics rears its head.  In short:

1.  You can't get ahead (i.e. get out more than went in).
2.  You can't even break even.

And I promise you for the video in question, that "pendulum in the base" wasn't.  It was some form of power source that was being depleted to keep the whole thing going.  The man is a charlatan at best - if we're being generous. 

He's built an interesting and rather nice piece of kinetic art, but has crossed the line from artist into fraud by attempting to pass it off as something it is not.

[pickle9000]

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/art.htm

Scroll down to the deceptions of David Jones. Just the name struck me as funny.

My belief, the world is interesting enough. We don't need fantasy, conspiracies or any of that other crap. They just lowered a rover on to Mars with cables and flew a capsule like an airplane. Far more interesting than all this BS.

...mike

[Simon]

So what? Still better than today's engines or generators that have 15 - 50 % efficiency

Then build it and make lots of money out if it!!
Why is it that people proposing such contraptions were never successful at going to market?

I could make a cheap and unlimited source of energy however the government would go after me because it uses fission instead of fusion.
Pesky anti-nuclear peasants and big industry.
[/quote]

So you have found some unobtanium material that withstands the temperature ? Better let all these secrets out one at a time or we'll never recover from the shock

[Obi_Kwiet]

Here's another

watch from 2:24

why did you want us to skip the beginning showing he is a nutter. There is a contradiction. They say it is 80-90% efficient and then say it has to be 101% efficient to be perpetual.

So what? Still better than today's engines or generators that have 15 - 50 % efficiency

No it isn't. It's not an engine, it's just storing mechanical energy in a mechanical system. A proper, high efficiency flywheel would put this to shame. Combustion engines have to convert from chemical energy to mechanical energy, which is a pretty inefficient process.

[Simon]

oooh don't be too blunt with him, now he has to go and take all of those videos off youtube 

[G7PSK]

The Earth or any other planet are not perpetual motion. The earth's orbit will slowly decay the energy loss is the slowing down of the spin, days are longer now than they were ten million years ago and they will get longer, there is also plasticity heating where the sun's gravity moves the earth crust just like the moon does and causes heat. All you can say is that the store of kinetic energy is exceedingly large and will take a long time to be used up.

[niky518]

oooh don't be too blunt with him, now he has to go and take all of those videos off youtube 

Calm down Simon!   I am not saying that this things in videos are revolutionary new technology that will change the world...

Only just want to hear opinions of others

[_Sin]

Opinions are like arseholes - everyone's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

It's also pretty worthless to talk about opinions when the subject isn't really open to interpretation. The question is not "is this random youtube video demonstrating actual perpetual motion?" (the answer is always an emphatic "no" - no 'opinion' necessary) - the question can only be "what kind of fraud is being attempted?", and that's usually not a terribly interesting question as there are so many trivial ways in which it could be done.

As to the "perpetual motion" of the solar system (or other celestial bodies), as has been pointed out, while that may be on many orders of magnitude more time than we humans are used to, there is nothing perpetual about it. Look at our own moon - that's moving away from us at a rate of about 3-4cm per-year, the energy being bled-off by dragging our oceans around and creating our tides.

[AntiProtonBoy]

Yep, and there are other phenomena, such as tidal locking. Ever wondered why we always see our Moon from the same side, and why its rotation period perfectly matches its orbital period? Over aeons of time geological tidal effects between the Earth and the Moon transferred orbital momentum from Moon's body to its rotation, causing deceleration of its orbit and forced the rotation to become more synchronous.

IO is slightly larger than our Moon, and yet it is one of the most geologically active body in our solar system. Normally, such a small body would be cold and dead like our boring Moon, but instead IO experiences tidal heating due to Jupiter's gravity, spewing all sorts of interesting things onto its surface. Basically IO is an extreme example of the aforementioned process. It's quite amazing if you think about it. In a nutshell, the energy generated by gravitational interactions is thermally radiated away; i.e. you have this bizarre, slow, elaborate conversion of gravitational interplay into photons!

Saturn's satellite system is very weird. Those collection of moons undergo orbital resonance, creating the bands in Saturn's rings, and orbital periods with integer ratios. Again, all of this incurs loss of momentum within the participating bodies.

Oh and gravity waves could also decay orbits.

[Simon]

ok I was trying to make a loose comparison and dupe the op into being convinced that something like perpetual motion is not unheard of but it takes special circumstances.