Author Topic: Petition to open/reform Australian Standards availability  (Read 5047 times)

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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Petition to open/reform Australian Standards availability
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2022, 04:23:38 am »
The electrician didn't have a copy?

The electrician knew what they were doing, they demonstrated that on another meter board at the same complex.

Without access to the standard, it makes it difficult to reference the standard and show non-compliance.

Agreed.

It's very useful to be able to reference a standard to make sure that the work that has been done to that standard is actually to that standard.

I currently have educational access via the library at the college I'm studying at. I'm seriously considering finding cheap useless courses just to keep this access.

As far as work in Oz is concerned, I think we're forgetting that a licenced electrician has an obligation to follow the standard since, ultimately, his licence is at stake. In addition to that, sometimes the installation work has to be certified and there is no way anyone will risk pissing off a certifying authority officer.

With regards to electrical installation safety, if the fitter is licenced, they should be more than able to assure you that the work is safe should you wish to indicate your apprehension. And if you ask nicely they might even teach you a thing or two.

But waving a standards book at a electrical contractor is a dick move. Just talk to them regarding your safety concerns. If you're unable to establish a good relationship then find someone else. Having the book is useless at that point anyway.
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Offline John BTopic starter

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Re: Petition to open/reform Australian Standards availability
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2022, 05:53:55 am »
As far as work in Oz is concerned, I think we're forgetting that a licenced electrician has an obligation to follow the standard since, ultimately, his licence is at stake. In addition to that, sometimes the installation work has to be certified and there is no way anyone will risk pissing off a certifying authority officer.

With regards to electrical installation safety, if the fitter is licenced, they should be more than able to assure you that the work is safe should you wish to indicate your apprehension. And if you ask nicely they might even teach you a thing or two.

But waving a standards book at a electrical contractor is a dick move. Just talk to them regarding your safety concerns. If you're unable to establish a good relationship then find someone else. Having the book is useless at that point anyway.

Are you being contrarian for the sake of it? There's no non-authoritarian argument against the public having access to the standards they have to live and operate under by law. This really seems like a centuries old argument that the peasants have to live by the bible, but the peasants aren't allowed to learn to read.

The building industry is rife with --literally-- sub standard work, simply having faith that work being done up to standard and that there's always going to be some higher authority reviewing the work is just contrary to reality.

The best you can do is cover yourself from a few different angles, and one of those is being educated yourself on what standards are applicable. That doesn't mean you're going to catch anything and everything wrong, nor does it mean you are going to judge everything correctly and win every argument against a tradesman or inspector. But it's far more beneficial for the consumer to have some knowledge as opposed to flying blind and just hoping mummy government is doing everything for you. Apparently what they're doing is giving our laws to multinational corpos to sell.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Petition to open/reform Australian Standards availability
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2022, 06:38:25 am »

The best you can do is cover yourself from a few different angles, and one of those is being educated yourself on what standards are applicable. That doesn't mean you're going to catch anything and everything wrong, nor does it mean you are going to judge everything correctly and win every argument against a tradesman or inspector. But it's far more beneficial for the consumer to have some knowledge as opposed to flying blind and just hoping mummy government is doing everything for you. Apparently what they're doing is giving our laws to multinational corpos to sell.

Well, the end game, I believe, is to do away with all the tradies and allow anybody to do anything. Some say the sooner the better. The idea then is to have a inspector for each service visit regularly for a fee. This puts the onus back on the landowner to ensure the occupants are safe no matter who did what. It already happens with rural sewage, bushfire prevention and smoke alarms to a degree.

Regular mandatory solar inspections are coming very soon. The meter readers aren't around any more to flag the dangerous fuseboxes. In the meantime, a person with standards books out the arse isn't currently authorised (or trained!) to safely open any electrical fixture to inspect the work within.

Understand, we are looking at the same turd from different dung hills.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 06:41:45 am by Ed.Kloonk »
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Offline ssander

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Re: Petition to open/reform Australian Standards availability
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2022, 10:40:40 pm »
With regards to electrical installation safety, if the fitter is licenced, they should be more than able to assure you that the work is safe should you wish to indicate your apprehension.

When I highlighted the issue of non-compliance to the strata committee. The response back from the committee member overseeing the project was that the licensed electrician claimed the installation was "safe and legal".

Fair trading agreed with me that the work done was non-compliant, and the licensed electrician had to come back and fix it.
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Petition to open/reform Australian Standards availability
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2022, 11:02:12 pm »
Well, the end game, I believe, is to do away with all the tradies and allow anybody to do anything. Some say the sooner the better. The idea then is to have a inspector for each service visit regularly for a fee.

There's a middle way, certify anyone doing it for hire and leave citizens free. Everything after the main fuse is between me and my insurer and my insurer isn't sending any inspectors. Here, the end game is "some people will die and that's okay".
 
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Online themadhippy

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Re: Petition to open/reform Australian Standards availability
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2022, 11:28:45 pm »
Think we need to get something like this rolling in the uk , 2nd amendment to our wiring regs landed a month ago,that'll be  £130  worth of books when you add in the onsite guide and guidance notes,the previous amendment isn't 2 years old,and the regs were only released in 2018.so over £400 in less than 4 years.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Petition to open/reform Australian Standards availability
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2022, 11:32:51 pm »
Well, the end game, I believe, is to do away with all the tradies and allow anybody to do anything. Some say the sooner the better. The idea then is to have a inspector for each service visit regularly for a fee.
There's a middle way, certify anyone doing it for hire and leave citizens free. Everything after the main fuse is between me and my insurer and my insurer isn't sending any inspectors. Here, the end game is "some people will die and that's okay".
That is almost the other extreme, but leaves some people at a significant exposure: renters and public/commercial locations. I have seen some "shockers" clearly done by DIYers. If someone buys a house they can choose if they want an inspection or not, but the cost and time required to check that is disproportionate to a 1 year rental contract (default rental term here). Workplaces are supposed to provide a safe environment, but too often they don't, my house is safer than my workplace but what should be the minimum level of safety acceptable?

Australian situation at the moment: all tradespeople are supposed to be responsible for their work being up to applicable standard, but the only people able to assess that are their own colleagues (its somewhat a racket/protectionism, and rarely do tradespeople have complaints upheld or lose their registration). Its a logical system as many of the things that need to be inspected are hidden in the process (plumbing in particular) so after the fact inspection as Ed.Kloonk suggests is stupid, as it would require installations to be designed specifically for inspection. Even routine electrical "test and tag" plus checking earth continuity in residential installations would be barely functional when you look at the mindless zombies in those industries. Same issue as the tradespeople at the moment, they can do completely inadequate work and if you question them on it the onus is on you to prove the problem. When you do prove the problem was with their substandard work they begrudgingly fix it up and go onto their next sucker client.

The problem is fixing the racket of "trained" people who aren't held to account, opening the standards would be one less roadblock in that.

Even with all the "assurances" of the current Australian system myself and others always get an electrical compliance check done when buying a new property. Just for our own safety, with a tradesperson we trust.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Petition to open/reform Australian Standards availability
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2022, 01:51:58 am »
Its a logical system as many of the things that need to be inspected are hidden in the process (plumbing in particular) so after the fact inspection as Ed.Kloonk suggests is stupid, as it would require installations to be designed specifically for inspection. Even routine electrical "test and tag" plus checking earth continuity in residential installations would be barely functional when you look at the mindless zombies in those industries.

The situation with hidden services is that you inspect for obvious effects such as mould, dampness, cracking and damage. It looks as though the initial solar inspections will be brutal at first but will settle down once the dust settles. Once word of mouth spreads that folks are having their solar systems turned off and carded, I think the dodgy setups will get cleaned up fairly quickly and a bit of repair and shiny new sealant here and there will keep them happy.

But we all know it's not about safety nor satisfactory workmanship. It's about collecting fees and keeping some peeps in a job. It's good that you'll have access the to information because, frankly, you're going to need it when the arguments start.

The general population is demanding overall more compliance and these checkers will know the rules. My problem, again, is the new wave of inspectors coming through just like the ordinary home owner will read the rules but not really have had the full background training. It's what people want, apparently.

It's a can of worms that is going to cost a lot of people a lot of money but I do sincerely hope that in the long run the standard of work will lift accordingly.
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Offline Terry Bites

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Re: Petition to open/reform Australian Standards availability
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2022, 07:43:41 pm »
It goes way beyond Oz. Flogging standards is a gloabal racket shrouded in offshore wierdness, flags of conveneience and dubious publishing rights. A junket for blokes in expensive suits.  Its thoroughly scandalous because standard creation is largely funded by tax payers cash.

Its the same with science and tech journals. The tax payer funds the work and then has to pay to see the results. How does that work (not)?
I think they dont want us to see where the money goes or what utter BS is keeping someone in a job.
Its been dark days since Sci-hub has was blocked here in the UK.
 


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