Author Topic: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...  (Read 34279 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 8086

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1086
  • Country: gb
    • Circuitology - Electronics Assembly
Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« on: September 16, 2013, 05:15:35 pm »
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/44889

Firstly, I would urge you to not sign. But I would like to know your thoughts.

Here's mine:

Quote
The government needs to ensure that the title of ‘Engineer’ is legally protected as it is in many other countries around the world, including Germany, France, USA and Canada. The title needs to be legally protected for Professional Engineers.
Protecting the title will:
-Increase the salaries of Engineers
Why? How? As far as I'm aware, engineers are already paid according to experience and qualifications. What will protecting the title change? I suspect the answer is 'nothing''
Quote
-Increase the respect society will have for Engineers
Again, why? And what does the 'respect' of 'society' have to do with engineering? It's more like the people supporting this want themselves to be the 'special ones', and have a protected title so that they can look down on the 'plebs' without one.
Quote
-Increase the number of youngsters wanting to pursue careers in Engineering
By protecting the title? Ludicrous suggestion. It won't change anything regarding the rate that children get interested in engineering.
Quote
-Increase the reputation of British Engineers once more
I wasn't aware that engineers had a bad reputation. It's more that the 'special ones' are annoyed at being grouped with the 'technicians', and don't feel quite as 'special' as they could if they had their very own title.
Quote
Society misunderstands what an Engineer actually does; they do NOT fix coffee machines and boilers.
As I just said - "we're more special than you!" It reeks of elitism - something that we do not need if we are to move forward as a society.

And, for full disclosure, I am someone who would supposedly benefit from protecting the title. But they want it for the wrong, and just plain incorrect reasons.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 05:17:55 pm by 8086 »
 

Offline Bored@Work

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3932
  • Country: 00
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 05:25:11 pm »
Sounds really like they list all the wrong reasons. And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.
I delete PMs unread. If you have something to say, say it in public.
For all else: Profile->[Modify Profile]Buddies/Ignore List->Edit Ignore List
 

Online xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4685
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>?
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 05:27:01 pm »
Do you want the trash men calling themselves "Sanitation Engineers"?  :wtf:
I am a Test Equipment Addict (TEA) - by virtue of this forum signature, I have now faced my addiction
 

Offline 8086

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1086
  • Country: gb
    • Circuitology - Electronics Assembly
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 05:34:03 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7373
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 05:47:01 pm »
I fully agree the title 'engineer' should be protected.

It needs to be a reserved title for the person that is in charge of an engine ,as in steam-engine, running on parallel tracks.

Any other usage should be prohibited.
Let's protect our historic heritage !
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline Bored@Work

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3932
  • Country: 00
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 05:49:53 pm »
If you have a limit, or lets say a hurdle, you can raise or otherwise adjust the bar later. If you have no hurdle, well, you have nothing. And latest when it comes to safety issues you'd like to have some hurdle.
I delete PMs unread. If you have something to say, say it in public.
For all else: Profile->[Modify Profile]Buddies/Ignore List->Edit Ignore List
 

Offline 8086

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1086
  • Country: gb
    • Circuitology - Electronics Assembly
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 05:51:54 pm »
What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?
 

Offline Fsck

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: ca
  • sleep deprived
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 05:56:49 pm »
Do you want the trash men calling themselves "Sanitation Engineers"?  :wtf:

Along with Network Engineers and Software Engineers (the computer scientists).

P.Eng = Engineer, I'd agree with but I don't exactly know how that works in the UK. Same as how ScD/DSc or PhD = Dr. Or how lawyers, dentists, medical doctors are Dr in a professional setting.
"This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."
 

Offline Corporate666

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2007
  • Country: us
  • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 06:01:04 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.

In the USA, the term "engineer" is abused to high heaven.  We have sales engineers (salesman), operations engineers (secretary), quality engineers (quality control inspector), and more.  Engineers are supposed to be people who design important things and the title, IMO, should match the qualification of the individual.

Your argument can be turned around equally... is the inability to use the title "engineer" holding otherwise sharp, qualified individuals back in their career?  I don't think so.

IMO, the title should be protected.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline KJDS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2442
  • Country: gb
    • my website holding page
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2013, 06:02:03 pm »
I really don't care how "engineer" gets used.

I don't think that having to jump over a hurdle when young will make any difference to any safety case. I do know that processes put in place to keep insurance companies happy have made a far bigger effect on industry practice than anything else I've seen related to risk management.

Offline edavid

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2970
  • Country: us
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 06:03:26 pm »
We have this regulation in the US, and it accomplishes nothing.   Engineers who are not PEs call themselves lower-case engineers, and the world goes on.

Also, the PE organizations don't really do anything if someone who is not a PE uses the title.  For example, there's an eBay seller who operates the "Registered Professional Engineer" store.  Guess what, he's not registered.
 

Offline Bored@Work

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3932
  • Country: 00
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2013, 06:04:47 pm »
I fully agree the title 'engineer' should be protected.

It needs to be a reserved title for the person that is in charge of an engine ,as in steam-engine, running on parallel tracks.

Any other usage should be prohibited.
Let's protect our historic heritage

Heritage? You call that a heritage? Pah! Latin ingenium - innate talent; ingeniarius - fortress master, engineer. Roman engineers were engineering stuff long before some grease monkey in the ashes of Provincia Britannia got his Latin wrong.
I delete PMs unread. If you have something to say, say it in public.
For all else: Profile->[Modify Profile]Buddies/Ignore List->Edit Ignore List
 

Offline Bored@Work

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3932
  • Country: 00
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2013, 06:09:59 pm »
What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.
I delete PMs unread. If you have something to say, say it in public.
For all else: Profile->[Modify Profile]Buddies/Ignore List->Edit Ignore List
 

Offline 8086

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1086
  • Country: gb
    • Circuitology - Electronics Assembly
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2013, 06:10:49 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.


There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?
 

Offline KJDS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2442
  • Country: gb
    • my website holding page
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2013, 06:11:35 pm »
What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

There are far better ways to put hurdles in the way than restricting the use of "Engineer"

Offline 8086

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1086
  • Country: gb
    • Circuitology - Electronics Assembly
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2013, 06:12:04 pm »
What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?
 

Offline Fsck

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: ca
  • sleep deprived
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2013, 06:16:00 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.


There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

Anything signed Dr ___ is by a PhD.

An MD will sign Mr/Mrs/Ms _____ MD <bunch of acronyms>
"This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."
 

Offline 8086

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1086
  • Country: gb
    • Circuitology - Electronics Assembly
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2013, 06:18:02 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.


There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

Anything signed Dr ___ is by a PhD.

An MD will sign Mr/Mrs/Ms _____ MD <bunch of acronyms>

In the UK, MDs are usually Dr. and surgeons/consultants are usually Mr.
 

Offline Bored@Work

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3932
  • Country: 00
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2013, 06:21:34 pm »
What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?

Oh come on, existing things get changed, new things get developed. And don't tell me you don't have legal qualification requirements in the UK when it comes to the development of dangerous stuff. Otherwise, next time an elevator door opens in front of you you better hope the control logic was not done by a self styled engineer with a blinking Arduino. Stepping into the elevator shaft because the cabin is not there is not funny.
I delete PMs unread. If you have something to say, say it in public.
For all else: Profile->[Modify Profile]Buddies/Ignore List->Edit Ignore List
 

Offline 8086

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1086
  • Country: gb
    • Circuitology - Electronics Assembly
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2013, 06:23:50 pm »
What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?

Oh come on, existing things get changed, new things get developed. And don't tell me you don't have legal qualification requirements in the UK when it comes to the development of dangerous stuff. Otherwise, next time an elevator door opens in front of you you better hope the control logic was not done by a self styled engineer with a blinking Arduino. Stepping into the elevator shaft because the cabin is not there is not funny.

Things like that already are covered by law and must be produced to certain standards and inspected by a competent person, which the person you describe would not be.
 

Offline Fsck

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: ca
  • sleep deprived
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2013, 06:24:29 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.


There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

Anything signed Dr ___ is by a PhD.

An MD will sign Mr/Mrs/Ms _____ MD <bunch of acronyms>

In the UK, MDs are usually Dr. and surgeons/consultants are usually Mr.

Can they change the title on their passport/drivers license to Dr with an MD, DDS, PharmD, JD?
These are professional doctorates in Canada and cannot sign Dr or change their legal title to it.

Also, how the hell do you become a surgeon without an MD?
"This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."
 

Offline 8086

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1086
  • Country: gb
    • Circuitology - Electronics Assembly
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2013, 06:27:29 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.


There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

Anything signed Dr ___ is by a PhD.

An MD will sign Mr/Mrs/Ms _____ MD <bunch of acronyms>

In the UK, MDs are usually Dr. and surgeons/consultants are usually Mr.

Can they change the title on their passport/drivers license to Dr with an MD, DDS, PharmD, JD?
These are professional doctorates in Canada and cannot sign Dr or change their legal title to it.

Also, how the hell do you become a surgeon without an MD?

I don't know about drivers licences, but you can put it on your passport.

You don't become a surgeon without an MD, that's my point. If you were a Dr. Bob, PhD, you could tell someone you're a doctor and they wouldn't know if you were medical or not. The title doesn't really help.
 

Offline KJDS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2442
  • Country: gb
    • my website holding page
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2013, 06:36:53 pm »
I know of a drunkard who hasn't seen the inside of a church more than a handful of times whose driving license states that he is an archbishop. You can put anything on the application form.

Surgeons in the UK prefer to be referred to as Mr even though they are MD, which isn't a PhD, due to historical reasons explained far better here

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119265/

Offline Fsck

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: ca
  • sleep deprived
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2013, 06:39:53 pm »
Then, your country is the problem. Whoever deals with policy has screwed you guys over.

I also forgot about chiropractors, vets, optometrists and probably a whole bunch of other things for professional doctorates.
"This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."
 

Offline IntegratedValve

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 187
Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2013, 06:59:04 pm »
Maybe I don't understand but lets say there are two people, one with an EE degree who has 10 years experience since graduation in professional sales of electronics equipment. The other has a degree in math but with 10 years experience as an electronic circuit designer. Now who gets the title and who gets the job?

Some people here mix between "blinking Arduino" hobbyists and serious circuit designers. Do you know how famous this "blinking Arduino" in university graduation projects? Or are we talking here about a different age group?
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf