Author Topic: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...  (Read 34291 times)

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Offline 8086

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Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« on: September 16, 2013, 05:15:35 pm »
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/44889

Firstly, I would urge you to not sign. But I would like to know your thoughts.

Here's mine:

Quote
The government needs to ensure that the title of ‘Engineer’ is legally protected as it is in many other countries around the world, including Germany, France, USA and Canada. The title needs to be legally protected for Professional Engineers.
Protecting the title will:
-Increase the salaries of Engineers
Why? How? As far as I'm aware, engineers are already paid according to experience and qualifications. What will protecting the title change? I suspect the answer is 'nothing''
Quote
-Increase the respect society will have for Engineers
Again, why? And what does the 'respect' of 'society' have to do with engineering? It's more like the people supporting this want themselves to be the 'special ones', and have a protected title so that they can look down on the 'plebs' without one.
Quote
-Increase the number of youngsters wanting to pursue careers in Engineering
By protecting the title? Ludicrous suggestion. It won't change anything regarding the rate that children get interested in engineering.
Quote
-Increase the reputation of British Engineers once more
I wasn't aware that engineers had a bad reputation. It's more that the 'special ones' are annoyed at being grouped with the 'technicians', and don't feel quite as 'special' as they could if they had their very own title.
Quote
Society misunderstands what an Engineer actually does; they do NOT fix coffee machines and boilers.
As I just said - "we're more special than you!" It reeks of elitism - something that we do not need if we are to move forward as a society.

And, for full disclosure, I am someone who would supposedly benefit from protecting the title. But they want it for the wrong, and just plain incorrect reasons.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 05:17:55 pm by 8086 »
 

Offline Bored@Work

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 05:25:11 pm »
Sounds really like they list all the wrong reasons. And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.
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Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 05:27:01 pm »
Do you want the trash men calling themselves "Sanitation Engineers"?  :wtf:
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 05:34:03 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 05:47:01 pm »
I fully agree the title 'engineer' should be protected.

It needs to be a reserved title for the person that is in charge of an engine ,as in steam-engine, running on parallel tracks.

Any other usage should be prohibited.
Let's protect our historic heritage !
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Offline Bored@Work

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 05:49:53 pm »
If you have a limit, or lets say a hurdle, you can raise or otherwise adjust the bar later. If you have no hurdle, well, you have nothing. And latest when it comes to safety issues you'd like to have some hurdle.
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 05:51:54 pm »
What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 05:56:49 pm »
Do you want the trash men calling themselves "Sanitation Engineers"?  :wtf:

Along with Network Engineers and Software Engineers (the computer scientists).

P.Eng = Engineer, I'd agree with but I don't exactly know how that works in the UK. Same as how ScD/DSc or PhD = Dr. Or how lawyers, dentists, medical doctors are Dr in a professional setting.
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Online Corporate666

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 06:01:04 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.

In the USA, the term "engineer" is abused to high heaven.  We have sales engineers (salesman), operations engineers (secretary), quality engineers (quality control inspector), and more.  Engineers are supposed to be people who design important things and the title, IMO, should match the qualification of the individual.

Your argument can be turned around equally... is the inability to use the title "engineer" holding otherwise sharp, qualified individuals back in their career?  I don't think so.

IMO, the title should be protected.
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Offline KJDS

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2013, 06:02:03 pm »
I really don't care how "engineer" gets used.

I don't think that having to jump over a hurdle when young will make any difference to any safety case. I do know that processes put in place to keep insurance companies happy have made a far bigger effect on industry practice than anything else I've seen related to risk management.

Offline edavid

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 06:03:26 pm »
We have this regulation in the US, and it accomplishes nothing.   Engineers who are not PEs call themselves lower-case engineers, and the world goes on.

Also, the PE organizations don't really do anything if someone who is not a PE uses the title.  For example, there's an eBay seller who operates the "Registered Professional Engineer" store.  Guess what, he's not registered.
 

Offline Bored@Work

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2013, 06:04:47 pm »
I fully agree the title 'engineer' should be protected.

It needs to be a reserved title for the person that is in charge of an engine ,as in steam-engine, running on parallel tracks.

Any other usage should be prohibited.
Let's protect our historic heritage

Heritage? You call that a heritage? Pah! Latin ingenium - innate talent; ingeniarius - fortress master, engineer. Roman engineers were engineering stuff long before some grease monkey in the ashes of Provincia Britannia got his Latin wrong.
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Offline Bored@Work

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2013, 06:09:59 pm »
What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2013, 06:10:49 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.


There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?
 

Offline KJDS

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2013, 06:11:35 pm »
What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

There are far better ways to put hurdles in the way than restricting the use of "Engineer"

Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2013, 06:12:04 pm »
What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2013, 06:16:00 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.


There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

Anything signed Dr ___ is by a PhD.

An MD will sign Mr/Mrs/Ms _____ MD <bunch of acronyms>
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2013, 06:18:02 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.


There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

Anything signed Dr ___ is by a PhD.

An MD will sign Mr/Mrs/Ms _____ MD <bunch of acronyms>

In the UK, MDs are usually Dr. and surgeons/consultants are usually Mr.
 

Offline Bored@Work

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2013, 06:21:34 pm »
What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?

Oh come on, existing things get changed, new things get developed. And don't tell me you don't have legal qualification requirements in the UK when it comes to the development of dangerous stuff. Otherwise, next time an elevator door opens in front of you you better hope the control logic was not done by a self styled engineer with a blinking Arduino. Stepping into the elevator shaft because the cabin is not there is not funny.
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2013, 06:23:50 pm »
What sort of safety issues are you thinking of, B@W?

Our world is full of technical stuff that is highly dangerous, yet we use it daily and rarely anything happens. I like to see this stuff developed by people who have a clue. While some hurdle will not keep all idiots away, it will keep some idiots away, which is a start.

It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?

Oh come on, existing things get changed, new things get developed. And don't tell me you don't have legal qualification requirements in the UK when it comes to the development of dangerous stuff. Otherwise, next time an elevator door opens in front of you you better hope the control logic was not done by a self styled engineer with a blinking Arduino. Stepping into the elevator shaft because the cabin is not there is not funny.

Things like that already are covered by law and must be produced to certain standards and inspected by a competent person, which the person you describe would not be.
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2013, 06:24:29 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.


There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

Anything signed Dr ___ is by a PhD.

An MD will sign Mr/Mrs/Ms _____ MD <bunch of acronyms>

In the UK, MDs are usually Dr. and surgeons/consultants are usually Mr.

Can they change the title on their passport/drivers license to Dr with an MD, DDS, PharmD, JD?
These are professional doctorates in Canada and cannot sign Dr or change their legal title to it.

Also, how the hell do you become a surgeon without an MD?
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2013, 06:27:29 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.


There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

Anything signed Dr ___ is by a PhD.

An MD will sign Mr/Mrs/Ms _____ MD <bunch of acronyms>

In the UK, MDs are usually Dr. and surgeons/consultants are usually Mr.

Can they change the title on their passport/drivers license to Dr with an MD, DDS, PharmD, JD?
These are professional doctorates in Canada and cannot sign Dr or change their legal title to it.

Also, how the hell do you become a surgeon without an MD?

I don't know about drivers licences, but you can put it on your passport.

You don't become a surgeon without an MD, that's my point. If you were a Dr. Bob, PhD, you could tell someone you're a doctor and they wouldn't know if you were medical or not. The title doesn't really help.
 

Offline KJDS

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2013, 06:36:53 pm »
I know of a drunkard who hasn't seen the inside of a church more than a handful of times whose driving license states that he is an archbishop. You can put anything on the application form.

Surgeons in the UK prefer to be referred to as Mr even though they are MD, which isn't a PhD, due to historical reasons explained far better here

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119265/

Offline Fsck

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2013, 06:39:53 pm »
Then, your country is the problem. Whoever deals with policy has screwed you guys over.

I also forgot about chiropractors, vets, optometrists and probably a whole bunch of other things for professional doctorates.
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Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2013, 06:59:04 pm »
Maybe I don't understand but lets say there are two people, one with an EE degree who has 10 years experience since graduation in professional sales of electronics equipment. The other has a degree in math but with 10 years experience as an electronic circuit designer. Now who gets the title and who gets the job?

Some people here mix between "blinking Arduino" hobbyists and serious circuit designers. Do you know how famous this "blinking Arduino" in university graduation projects? Or are we talking here about a different age group?
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2013, 07:30:32 pm »
It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?

I think it would help the general public to understand what an Engineer actually does, and what makes an Engineer different from a technician or operator.

On the whole, the general public has very little contact with Engineers. We work away in labs, producing designs and prototypes, and rarely get too involved with individual customers. We're unseen, and I think it's a fair bet that's one reason why we don't get the same respect that other professionals can.

I had an interesting discussion on another forum on this very subject recently; we were discussing the difference between an automotive technician - a mechanic - and a Mechanical Engineer. We all agreed that being a good mechanic involved a lot of skill and, above all, experience - and that an experienced mechanic was definitely the person whom you'd want to rebuild your engine.

What was rather sad, though, was the lack of any similar respect for the Engineer. The fact that only a properly educated and trained Engineer would be able to design that engine in the first place was a point that was either missed completely or actively contested.

No mechanic knows how to mathematically model the gas flow in a combustion chamber, or calculate from first principles the stresses on a camshaft - and I wondered whether anyone even recognised that these tasks exist and have to be done at all, never mind who does them and what their job title is.

There seemed to be a general perception that an Engineer does the same kind of work as a Technician, and that "Engineer > Technician" in some sense - with the result that Technicians like to call themselves Engineers, and the correct meaning of the word Engineer is lost.

That's why I'd like to see the term 'Engineer' protected, and used only to describe people who design things, carry out simulations, test and evaluate prototypes, produce schematics - and not people who install, maintain, repair and service things that have been designed by others.

Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2013, 07:36:39 pm »
It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?

That's why I'd like to see the term 'Engineer' protected, and used only to describe people who design things, carry out simulations, test and evaluate prototypes, produce schematics - and not people who install, maintain, repair and service things that have been designed by others.


So to paraphrase...to separate the 'special ones' from the 'plebs'? Not to be overly argumental, but it seems that you're going right back to that point in essence, despite whatever else you wrote.

What would protecting the title actually achieve, beyond sating the rage that some small-penised engineers have at the fact that some technicians are given job titles that involve the word engineer?

This may be a surprise to you, but the word doesn't actually just mean someone who designs or creates, though I appreciate that this is a commonly held erroneous belief.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2013, 07:42:15 pm »
Lets do a thought experiment.
Let's assume the term 'engineer' is protected for people having the bit of paper.

this raises the following question :

1) What label do you apply to people who do exactly the same job but without the bit of paper ?
2) if the reason for protection is to lead higher wages, wouldn't it be easy for companies simply to hire people that do not posses the bit of paper and have em do the work... it'll be cheaper and the paper possesors would be largely unemployed ..
3) are we going to set a 'standard' for the criteria to get the title or does every educational institute go its own way ? nationally ? internationally ? i will establish an accredited  school and deliver certificates if you can make an arduino blink an led ... an engineer delivered by Stanford or MIT will be different than the one from Fawlty Towers University

Quote
@andy_c : That's why I'd like to see the term 'Engineer' protected, and used only to describe people who design things, carry out simulations, test and evaluate prototypes, produce schematics

This is exactly my job, can i get my title now ? and if not : why ? i fit your criteria

If Engineer is a label . let's define what that encompasses.
if, as you say  the it is a name for someone creating new things , electronically , mechanically ... then in your reasoning:

If homeless redneck drunk Joe-Schmoe around the corner makes a new supergizmo from two led's , an arduino , a bathtub , 5 faucets , a bucket and an old shoe, that nobody has envisioned before but turns out to be extremely helpful to society and he crafts up the plans on a napkin for it and has someone build them . He will be entitled to say he engineered that. after all, he had the idea, he designed it and he published the plans


« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 07:51:08 pm by free_electron »
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Offline jpb

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2013, 07:42:55 pm »
In the UK the term chartered engineer is protected but it is generally more important for civil engineers than for electrical/electronic engineers. My brother-in-law is a civil engineer and he couldn't work without getting chartered status. In contrast I have never bothered to get chartered status as an electronic engineer though my degree in engineering science was accredited. This was mainly because I went more into research than practical engineering (hence doing electronics as a hobby).

Perhaps the e-petition has a point as regards the general public. My first job as a graduate engineer was working on high frequency GaAs monolithic microwave integrated circuits - this made me a "microwave engineer" - every time my wife told people that was what I did they assumed I mended microwave ovens! :palm:

It is certainly true that engineers have generally had a low status in the UK, though people like Dyson are changing that. I think it is more to do with the economy being centered around the City of London and the Financial markets rather than the title Engineer. Bankers, Lawyers and Accountants and Doctors and Dentists are paid much more and so have more "status" in the eyes of young people - protecting the word "Engineer" is not going to change that. Engineers have more status in the US and in Germany (for example) because they actually run companies, there are only a few examples in the UK who do so.
 

Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2013, 07:43:50 pm »
Protecting the title will actually achieve one thing: decreasing the possibility that some talent will work on a professional project.
 

Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2013, 07:48:36 pm »
Quote
...My first job as a graduate engineer was working on high frequency GaAs monolithic microwave integrated circuits...

Sorry but I find this contradicting with:

http://electronicdesign.com/analog-amp-mixed-signal/bob-s-mailbox-advice-young-engineer-julie-resistors-key-less-acceleration-an

 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2013, 07:51:41 pm »
Quote
Also, how the hell do you become a surgeon without an MD?

Fairly easily.

In the UK newly qualified doctors obtain a pair of Bachelor's degrees - one in medicine and one in surgery. The reasons are historical so I won't go into detail. This is (depending on your Alma Mater) either MBBS or MBChB. Some "intercalate" (i.e squeeze in) a BSc along the way.

All doctors including general practitioners,  surgeons and every other branch of medicine then undergo further training. This includes passing exams administered by one of the "Royal Colleges" - e.g MRCP (Member of the Royal College of Physicians"), FRCS (Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons) etc. Passing one of these before becoming a consultant is mandatory for most branches of medicine. Intellectually these are probably not degree level qualifications - more Diploma level.

There is also a large element of continuous training, appraisal and assessment which goes on as well. You finally get what is known as a "CCT" (Certificate of Completion of Training") I think this is broadly the European version of "Board Certification" but I'm not 100% familiar with all of the steps the US system makes people go through.

Some doctors (surgeons, whatever) will also complete higher degrees by doing research so you can also get an MSc, MD or PhD depending on what you do and which University you do it through - it is thus quite common to see UK consultants who have a PhD or MD but it's not universal. Something like MRCP or FRCS is essentially universal though.

If you want to work in an academic centre in a non surgical specialty you pretty much need an MD or PhD but even there you might well find a surgeon without - especially the older ones.

In the UK "Doctor" is not protected and can equally well be claimed by people with a PhD - the protected title is "Registered Medical Practitioner".

Anyone can treat human patients though whatever qualification - "doctor", Registered Medical Practitioner", "Bronze Swimming Certificate" but you have to have a recognised veterinary degree to treat animals!


« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 07:53:15 pm by grumpydoc »
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2013, 07:52:19 pm »
Quote
@andy_c : That's why I'd like to see the term 'Engineer' protected, and used only to describe people who design things, carry out simulations, test and evaluate prototypes, produce schematics

This is exactly my job, can i get my title now ? and if not : why ? i fit your criteria
Sure, of course. The title describes the nature of the work that you do, and the responsibilities that go along with it. I've not said anything about academic qualifications.

Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2013, 08:00:13 pm »
Protecting the title will actually achieve one thing: decreasing the possibility that some talent will work on a professional project.

That, plus it makes a group of people feel 'special'. They should give em a t-shirt. It's more useful than a sheet of paper. that piece of paper takes up room on the wall. The t-shirt you can at least wear.

Engineer is no more than a generic term indicating you 'create'

you got software engineers : they create software
you got electronics engineers :they create electronics hardware
you got mechanical engineers : they mace mechanical stuff
you got sanitation engineers: they would create sewer networks. they wouldn't be mopping up ...
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Offline Fsck

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2013, 08:07:11 pm »
Protecting the title will actually achieve one thing: decreasing the possibility that some talent will work on a professional project.

That, plus it makes a group of people feel 'special'. They should give em a t-shirt. It's more useful than a sheet of paper. that piece of paper takes up room on the wall. The t-shirt you can at least wear.

Engineer is no more than a generic term indicating you 'create'

you got software engineers : they create software
you got electronics engineers :they create electronics hardware
you got mechanical engineers : they mace mechanical stuff
you got sanitation engineers: they would create sewer networks. they wouldn't be mopping up ...


creating sewer networks would be civil engineers. sanitation engineers are janitors in the US...
an amusing world of semantics
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Offline jpb

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2013, 08:40:26 pm »
Quote
...My first job as a graduate engineer was working on high frequency GaAs monolithic microwave integrated circuits...

Sorry but I find this contradicting with:

http://electronicdesign.com/analog-amp-mixed-signal/bob-s-mailbox-advice-young-engineer-julie-resistors-key-less-acceleration-an
???
Are you implying I don't know what my first job was? Of course I worked as part of a team, and more experienced engineers had overall  responsibility for designs, but I wrote code to analyse large signal distributed amplifiers for instance as well as circuit layout and assessment.
 

Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2013, 09:02:28 pm »
Quote
...My first job as a graduate engineer was working on high frequency GaAs monolithic microwave integrated circuits...

Sorry but I find this contradicting with:

http://electronicdesign.com/analog-amp-mixed-signal/bob-s-mailbox-advice-young-engineer-julie-resistors-key-less-acceleration-an
???
Are you implying I don't know what my first job was? Of course I worked as part of a team, and more experienced engineers had overall  responsibility for designs, but I wrote code to analyse large signal distributed amplifiers for instance as well as circuit layout and assessment.

I'm implying Bob was on the wrong track it took him so long...we cannot really say all people learning capabilities are the same, some take them 10 years others take them 1 year.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2013, 09:11:39 pm »
Any one with a degree already has a protected status PHD or DR. Of course Msc is a far superior status.In germany any one who has been to university seems be called doctor.
I think that a petition to call all lawyers and politicians Liar would be a good idea though.
 

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2013, 09:13:48 pm »
And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.


There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

A strong argument could be made that protecting the term "Engineer" is also in the public interest.  Not every doctor is involved in life and death work, and neither is every engineer - but a lot of them are. 

As for Dr. Bob PhD performing surgery, that would be practicing medicine without a license.  And if Engineer becomes protected, then someone calling themselves one who isn't would be guilty of a similar thing. 

But going back to what I said... if the belief is that protecting the title of Engineer doesn't guarantee any level of quality, then why are people so against it?  Let them protect the title, and those who do well by virtue of performance instead of a piece of paper will continue to do just as well.
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2013, 09:19:03 pm »

A strong argument could be made that protecting the term "Engineer" is also in the public interest.  Not every doctor is involved in life and death work, and neither is every engineer - but a lot of them are. 

Actually I would say that every [medical] doctor is involved in life and death work. We may disagree on that.
Quote
As for Dr. Bob PhD performing surgery, that would be practicing medicine without a license.  And if Engineer becomes protected, then someone calling themselves one who isn't would be guilty of a similar thing. 

So in answer to my question: What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

The answer is: nothing. You have answered a different question.

Quote
But going back to what I said... if the belief is that protecting the title of Engineer doesn't guarantee any level of quality, then why are people so against it?  Let them protect the title, and those who do well by virtue of performance instead of a piece of paper will continue to do just as well.

The issue is that those people without the piece of paper will not be allowed to describe themselves accurately anymore, just so the special ones can feel special.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 09:20:54 pm by 8086 »
 

Offline jpb

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2013, 09:23:01 pm »
Any one with a degree already has a protected status PHD or DR. Of course Msc is a far superior status.In germany any one who has been to university seems be called doctor.

When it comes to academic titles there is a huge variation between countries. For example, a "professor" in a UK university is in a very senior post above perhaps senior lecturers, lecturers, readers, research associates etc, while in other countries an "associate professor" is quite junior perhaps equivalent to a new lecturer.
 

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2013, 09:30:45 pm »
Actually I would say that every doctor is involved in life and death work. We may disagree on that.

Years ago I worked at a company that employed lots of doctors and was doing research into drugs that could stop eyesight degeneration.  One could argue that such doctors still need to be aware of what chemicals might kill a person, but by that rationale, any engineer who deals with batteries or line voltage is also dealing with life and death.

Quote
So in answer to my question: What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

The answer is: nothing.

I don't think anyone has made the claim that protecting the term Engineer will stop people who are not degreed from working on electronics projects... so if it won't stop non-degreed people from doing the work, what's the problem with letting degreed engineers protect the term?

Quote
The issue is that those people without the piece of paper will not be allowed to describe themselves accurately anymore, just so the special ones can feel special.

I disagree... if Engineer becomes protected, then someone who wishes to use the term to describe themselves is, by definition, using it inaccurately.  I think that is a problem lately - because everyone likes to add "Engineer" to their title to make it sound as if they are doing much higher level work than they really are.  I can see why engineers have a problem with that, because an engineer is not just someone who wants to feel special, it is someone who completed a specific set of training that is above what many people who use the term "engineer" would be capable of.  That inarguably dilutes the meaning of the word.  I know a guy who took a night course in chemistry to handle wastewater treatment at a factory (he was a maintenance guy before).  His new title was "Water Treatment Engineer".  He didn't engineer anything.

Perhaps a better solution would be some sort of suffix like "RE" (Registered Engineer) or "DE" (Degreed Engineer) to differentiate.  But I don't think there will be a lot of people who are unable to accurately describe their work without using the word... because if they don't have a degree, they aren't an engineer. 

It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2013, 09:38:07 pm »
I don't think anyone has made the claim that protecting the term Engineer will stop people who are not degreed from working on electronics projects... so if it won't stop non-degreed people from doing the work, what's the problem with letting degreed engineers protect the term?

I don't think you quite get the point I was making with the analogy. But regardless, there is an issue that non-degreed people will be even more looked down upon than they already are - and that is already a significant amount.

Quote

I disagree... if Engineer becomes protected, then someone who wishes to use the term to describe themselves is, by definition, using it inaccurately.  I think that is a problem lately - because everyone likes to add "Engineer" to their title to make it sound as if they are doing much higher level work than they really are.

And what of the people who are doing equivalent level work? It's too easy to say that "refuse engineer" or "sewage engineer" are misusing the term - that's not the point I'm interested in. What about the people that don't have degrees but have the ability?
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2013, 09:43:56 pm »
What about the people that don't have degrees but have the ability?

If they have the ability they can damn well go get the degree then right?
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2013, 09:47:38 pm »
What about the people that don't have degrees but have the ability?

If they have the ability they can damn well go get the degree then right?

Why should they be forced to put themselves in debt, and take time out of work, just to be in the same position they were before they started?
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2013, 09:48:39 pm »
Why should they be forced to put themselves in debt, and take time out of work, just to be in the same position they were before they started?

Nobody is forcing them to if they don't want to, but they can't use the term if they aren't willing to earn it.
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2013, 09:52:17 pm »
Why should they be forced to put themselves in debt, and take time out of work, just to be in the same position they were before they started?

Nobody is forcing them to if they don't want to, but they can't use the term if they aren't willing to earn it.


They wouldn't be earning it, they would be paying around £30,000 to buy it. They needn't earn it, since they already have the ability.

You would be creating an elite club where if you have the luxury of paying £30,000 and taking 3 years off work, you can be an engineer.

That's a bad thing.
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2013, 09:53:14 pm »
What about the people that don't have degrees but have the ability?

If they have the ability they can damn well go get the degree then right?

Why should they be forced to put themselves in debt, and take time out of work, just to be in the same position they were before they started?

The world tends to trust those pieces of paper. Would you trust someone new to you who hadn't officially gone to school to assemble the electronics for a W88 fission induced fusion weapon?

in reference to "professor": there are a whole bunch of professor grades on this side of the pond.
Canada has a similar ranking system:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_ranks_(United_States)
the wiki article (one of the relative few), does a good outline
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2013, 09:54:48 pm »
What about the people that don't have degrees but have the ability?

If they have the ability they can damn well go get the degree then right?

Why should they be forced to put themselves in debt, and take time out of work, just to be in the same position they were before they started?

The world tends to trust those pieces of paper.


How does that translate to making it a necessity to protect the title of 'engineer'?

Quote
Would you trust someone new to you who hadn't officially gone to school to assemble the electronics for a W88 fission induced fusion weapon?

I wouldn't trust someone that merely held the title if it was protected to do that. I would want someone with the necessary experience and knowledge. That may or may not be someone with a degree. For such a task the person would need a lot more scrutiny that just noting the title they hold.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 09:57:56 pm by 8086 »
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2013, 09:57:30 pm »
it's tangential, might as well just adapt to the rest of world instead of being an outlier
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2013, 09:58:29 pm »
it's tangential, might as well just adapt to the rest of world instead of being an outlier

Monkey see, monkey do.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2013, 09:59:01 pm »
I still don't see what's so difficult to understand about the fact that an Engineer's work is just plain different to a Technician's. Not necessarily "better", "harder", or "superior" in some way - just not the same.

Going back to my earlier example, rebuilding an engine isn't the same as designing one. They require different skills, different experience, and it's highly unlikely that any one person would be able to do both. I wouldn't want a guy who sits at a CAD workstation all day to try and rebuild my engine any more than I'd want my mechanic to try and design me a more efficient one.

Being called an Engineer is, as much as anything else, purely descriptive of the nature of someone's work.

Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2013, 10:00:48 pm »
They needn't earn it, since they already have the ability.

Says who? You? Themselves? Their grandmother?

Who says who is what? Who is a doctor? Who is a lawyer? Who is an engineer?

People are granted degrees for a reason - so you can proclaim what you are, and the reason you can do so is that you have been vetted by testing by an accredited institution. I have an engineering degree and I damn sure don't want any Tom, Dick, or Harry going around saying they are an engineer without being vetted.

Certain titles in the world have to be earned, and that's for a good reason. If somebody thinks they have the ability then go get the f*cking degree. If not, I don't give a rat's ass what they do for a living, but they can't say they are an engineer. That's like saying if I stitch up wounds for people at $15 a shot because I am self-taught how to do it, I can call myself a doctor. Give me a f*cking break!  :palm:
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2013, 10:07:43 pm »
They needn't earn it, since they already have the ability.

Says who? You? Themselves? Their grandmother?

Says the original assumption of the argument.

Quote
People are granted degrees for a reason - so you can proclaim what you are, and the reason you can do so is that you have been vetted by testing by an accredited institution. I have an engineering degree and I damn sure don't want any Tom, Dick, or Harry going around saying they are an engineer without being vetted.

You're special.

I'm not talking about people without your abilities. I'm talking about people with them.

Quote

Certain titles in the world have to be earned, and that's for a good reason. If somebody thinks they have the ability then go get the f*cking degree. If not, I don't give a rat's ass what they do for a living, but they can't say they are an engineer.

So you prefer an elitist system where you have to buy your professional title. I disagree with your attitude.

Just to gain an insight into the issue, would you mind telling me your age, when you gained your degree, and whether you're married/have kids?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 10:10:21 pm by 8086 »
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2013, 10:13:09 pm »
it's tangential, might as well just adapt to the rest of world instead of being an outlier

Monkey see, monkey do.

Personally, I don't think the pieces of paper are worth it. I'd prefer a test-based system. Coursework and such optional, to be used by those who need to learn. Just give them a couple dozen tests (or more for things like MDs, vets etc)
Sort of how no matter how intelligent you are, you cannot enter a graduate program without a bachelors degree.

You can extend the argument, why do we need high school? the material covered during HS is rudimentary (quite inaccurate and not precise, which you get to correct during university)
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Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2013, 10:18:26 pm »
Says the original assumption of the argument.

So anyone who thinks they can do engineering can say they are an engineer? Well why doesn't that go for lawyers and doctors? When you can answer that question logically get back to me.

Quote
I'm not talking about people without your abilities. I'm talking about people with them.

Who is to say what people have the abilities though? If it's left up to the individual then we'll have more engineers than you can shake a stick at.

Quote
So you prefer an elitist system where you have to buy your professional title. I disagree with your attitude.

I don't give a flip if you disagree with it. It's not elitist to make sure people have the skills they claim. If this isn't done than anyone can call themselves anything they want. It's called bullshitting.  :)

You didn't answer my question though - can I call myself a lawyer if I teach myself law? How about I call myself a doctor if I teach myself medicine. Hmmm?

Quote
Just to gain an insight into the issue, would you mind telling me your age, when you gained your degree, and whether you're married/have kids?

I'm 55, I got my degree in 1985, and no kids or wife (thank gawd).
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Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2013, 10:23:08 pm »
They needn't earn it, since they already have the ability.

Says who? You? Themselves? Their grandmother?

Who says who is what? Who is a doctor? Who is a lawyer? Who is an engineer?

People are granted degrees for a reason - so you can proclaim what you are, and the reason you can do so is that you have been vetted by testing by an accredited institution. I have an engineering degree and I damn sure don't want any Tom, Dick, or Harry going around saying they are an engineer without being vetted.

Certain titles in the world have to be earned, and that's for a good reason. If somebody thinks they have the ability then go get the f*cking degree. If not, I don't give a rat's ass what they do for a living, but they can't say they are an engineer. That's like saying if I stitch up wounds for people at $15 a shot because I am self-taught how to do it, I can call myself a doctor. Give me a f*cking break!  :palm:

Says their projects and demonstrated talents.

They have the ability to invent and innovate, and a getting a degree does not require such abilities, it takes only ability to pay and tolerate the torture of unhealthy life during their course work, and of course the willingness to waste time, almost 25% of your actual age.

Doctors and layers are completely different professions, and comparing them here with technical stuff like hardware engineers is senseless. These two professions deal with people lives for god sake.
 

Offline Fsck

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2013, 10:27:00 pm »
Well, he said engineer as a "title", which I assume to be whatever the equivalent of P.Eng is across the pond. this could be a bad assumption, if so a more detailed explanation would be good

job titles I'd think would be irrelevant, especially since you end up with generic titles such as "senior researcher" which tells you no specifics about what they're doing
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Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2013, 10:30:57 pm »
Says their projects and demonstrated talents.

Why is that different logically from doctors and lawyers?

Quote
They have the ability to invent and innovate, and a getting a degree does not require such abilities, it takes only ability to pay and tolerate the torture of unhealthy life during their course work, and of course the willingness to waste time, almost 25% of your actual age.

Your response has nothing do to with the issue, because in university you are learning not just the fundamentals of the field, but are getting a rounded education. Self taught people don't get that well rounded education. A well rounded education is more than just learning about engineering - that's why a self-taught person can't be called an engineer. Because you are making a grave error in what you deem an engineer has been taught, you have harmed your argument.

Quote
Doctors and layers are completely different professions, and comparing them here with technical stuff like hardware engineers is senseless. These two professions deal with people lives for god sake.

It's logically exactly the same thing. You can't get out of the dilemma you have dug for yourself so easily I'm afraid.
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Offline Fsck

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2013, 10:34:11 pm »
civil engineers design bridges, they also do buildings and infrastructure, which do involve life and death
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2013, 10:36:05 pm »


Your response has nothing do to with the issue, because in university you are learning not just the fundamentals of the field, but are getting a rounded education. Self taught people don't get that well rounded education. A well rounded education is more than just learning about engineering - that's why a self-taught person can't be called an engineer. Because you are making a grave error in what you deem an engineer has been taught, you have harmed your argument.


You think a "well rounded education" is good? You think touching on a lot of subjects without going into much depth, just to pass an exam is good? You think being a jack of all trades, and master of none is good?

I've been to university. I've seen the students. I've seen the lecturers. I've seen the course content. A self-taught person can do just as much, and even more learning than a student needs to do to attain a degree. That's a fact, whether you accept it or not. I'm not sure what you think university is, but it's not a place to make people smarter.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 10:37:49 pm by 8086 »
 

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2013, 10:36:54 pm »
civil engineers design bridges, they also do buildings and infrastructure, which do involve life and death

Yep.

Playing the "Get out of jail free" card by saying lawyers and docs deal with people's lives so they have to get a degree is a fallacy. The problem is exactly the same. If I'm a self-taught lawyer or doctor then why can't I call myself one?
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2013, 10:39:21 pm »
civil engineers design bridges, they also do buildings and infrastructure, which do involve life and death

Yep.

Playing the "Get out of jail free" card by saying lawyers and docs deal with people's lives so they have to get a degree is a fallacy. The problem is exactly the same. If I'm a self-taught lawyer or doctor then why can't I call myself one?

Because it's not allowed. Whether it should be or not is another debate.

The fact is, doctors and lawyers are flying solo most of the time. They have a much greater responsibility on a personal level than any engineer. It's not difficult to understand.
 

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2013, 10:39:57 pm »

You think a "well rounded education" is good?

Uh ... yea.  :-//

Quote
You think touching on a lot of subjects without going into much depth, just to pass an exam is good? You think being a jack of all trades, and master of none is good?

More drivel ...

Quote
A self-taught person can do just as much, and even more learning than a student needs to do to attain a degree.

Please answer my last question logically - Why is that different logically from doctors and lawyers? Come on, I know you can do it.

P.S. the answer is it isn't logically different. Give up before it's too late - this will be on the Internets forever.
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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2013, 10:41:24 pm »
Because it's not allowed.

Why?

Why is it not allowed for lawyers and doctors? Come on, come on, how is it logically different?
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Offline Fsck

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2013, 10:44:52 pm »
civil engineers design bridges, they also do buildings and infrastructure, which do involve life and death

Yep.

Playing the "Get out of jail free" card by saying lawyers and docs deal with people's lives so they have to get a degree is a fallacy. The problem is exactly the same. If I'm a self-taught lawyer or doctor then why can't I call myself one?

Because it's not allowed. Whether it should be or not is another debate.

The fact is, doctors and lawyers are flying solo most of the time. They have a much greater responsibility on a personal level than any engineer. It's not difficult to understand.

large risk of harming one versus an engineer with a smaller risk (if nobody catches their mistake) of killing thousands, possibly tens of or hundreds of. especially if you're a nuclear engineer
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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2013, 10:45:40 pm »
You think a "well rounded education" is good?

I do. It's not being a "jack of all trades and master of none". You still master yours. I for one would love to see a general population of people who have been exposed to things outside their relatively narrow fields.

If the students just cram in enough material to pass the exam and then forget it, that's their choice, but not all of them will make that choice, and even those who do will have exposure that others will never get.
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2013, 10:47:19 pm »
Quote
More drivel ...

The more 'rounded', the less you end up learning in each area. It's impossible to do otherwise.

The students that learn just enough to pass the exams, they get to be engineers.

The people who actually know engineering, but didn't take any exams, they can't be engineers? Fuck off.

What I am trying to say is that university isn't a magical place where you go in a moron and come out an engineer.

Quote
Please answer my last question logically - Why is that different logically from doctors and lawyers? Come on, I know you can do it.

The fact is, doctors and lawyers are flying solo most of the time. They have a much greater responsibility on a personal level than any engineer. It's not difficult to understand.

I'll just keep copying and pasting until you get it, mate.
 

Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2013, 10:50:32 pm »
civil engineers design bridges, they also do buildings and infrastructure, which do involve life and death

Yep.

Playing the "Get out of jail free" card by saying lawyers and docs deal with people's lives so they have to get a degree is a fallacy. The problem is exactly the same. If I'm a self-taught lawyer or doctor then why can't I call myself one?

Because it's not allowed. Whether it should be or not is another debate.

The fact is, doctors and lawyers are flying solo most of the time. They have a much greater responsibility on a personal level than any engineer. It's not difficult to understand.

large risk of harming one versus an engineer with a smaller risk (if nobody catches their mistake) of killing thousands, possibly tens of or hundreds of. especially if you're a nuclear engineer

Talking about all engineers, in all fields, the likelihood of a single engineer causing anyone any harm is significantly less than that of a doctor.
 

Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2013, 10:51:19 pm »
Quote
Please answer my last question logically - Why is that different logically from doctors and lawyers? Come on, I know you can do it.

Designing a bridge or a hardware equipment does not go in one stage from designer out to mass production to public. It involves, a lot of testing done in stages, verification, checking by more then one person, and there are others involved in the building of the final project. On the other hand, when you go to a doctor, there's nothing called lets try this medicine on you before I give you the final medicine, or lets try this operation and see if it works before they can do it to other people...and that's why even the medicine curriculum, and law as well, are essentially different in a sense they spend a lot on supervised professional practice.
 

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2013, 10:55:19 pm »
Quote
Please answer my last question logically - Why is that different logically from doctors and lawyers? Come on, I know you can do it.

Designing a bridge or a hardware equipment does not go in one stage from designer out to mass production to public. It involves, a lot of testing done in stages, verification, checking by more then one person, and there are others involved in the building of the final project. On the other hand, when you go to a doctor, there's nothing called lets try this medicine on you before I give you the final medicine, or lets try this operation and see if it works before they can do it to other people...and that's why even the medicine curriculum, and law as well, are essentially different in a sense they spend a lot on supervised professional practice.


law = mock court, with veteran lawyers acting as graders/supervisors etc, prior to taking any real case
medicine = practicing on corpses. either way, medical students don't touch real patients without lots of practice on corpses or ie suturing beef/pork/etc
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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2013, 10:56:35 pm »
large risk of harming one versus an engineer with a smaller risk (if nobody catches their mistake) of killing thousands, possibly tens of or hundreds of. especially if you're a nuclear engineer

Speculation. Any person in any of those categories could kill large numbers of people, or single people with bad practices. Doctors with degrees kill patients and make surgical mistakes all the time. Lawyers fail to get innocent people off of murder charges all the time. What good did the degree do them if they have failed? Maybe a self taught lawyer would have fared better, after all you claim self-taught people are just as good.

By the way, engineers have killed more people than either doctors or lawyers, albeit by design. Even hear of the fission atomic bomb? By design it killed a whole lot of people. Yay engineers!

Tell you what, how about this.

Call yourself a self-taught engineer (if your have no degree), likewise call yourself a self-taught lawyer and a self-taught doctor if they have no degrees. That way you can distinguish your awesome mental abilities for all to see, and it sets you apart from the degreed people.

If you agree to adding "self-taught" in from of all three of these terms (if indeed any are self-taught), we'll call it a day.
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Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2013, 10:57:54 pm »
xrunner, why do you refuse to accept that someone can be knowledgeable without taking formal classes?
 

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2013, 10:58:34 pm »
On the other hand, when you go to a doctor, there's nothing called lets try this medicine on you before I give you the final medicine, ...

LOL - you really think so! They do that all the f*cking time!  :-DD

Just ask my mother.
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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2013, 11:00:39 pm »
xrunner, why do you refuse to accept that someone can be knowledgeable without taking formal classes?

Uh - that's not what I'm arguing about. Anyway - I have to go into the man cave and start relaxing with a beer and my kitty cat. If I can manage any more responses from my lame laptop there I'll give it a shot, but I can't guarantee it.  ;)
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Offline c4757p

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2013, 11:04:02 pm »
By the way, engineers have killed more people than either doctors or lawyers, albeit by design. Even hear of the fission atomic bomb? By design it killed a whole lot of people. Yay engineers!

Nitpicking and semantics... it was meant to! That wasn't an accident.

Quote
Tell you what, how about this.

Call yourself a self-taught engineer (if your have no degree), likewise call yourself a self-taught lawyer and a self-taught doctor if they have no degrees. That way you can distinguish your awesome mental abilities for all to see, and it sets you apart from the degreed people.

If you agree to adding "self-taught" in from of all three of these terms (if indeed any are self-taught), we'll call it a day.

I mostly agree, but I would make a huge exception for the "School of Hard Knocks". If you have years of experience working as a "self-taught" engineer, you're an engineer. For the first few years you're just a "self-taught engineer", but there comes a point where what you learned from work experience greatly outweighs what you learned from education, and I'd say that at that point, educational qualifiers no longer matter a rat's ass.
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Online Corporate666

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2013, 11:11:18 pm »
I don't think you quite get the point I was making with the analogy. But regardless, there is an issue that non-degreed people will be even more looked down upon than they already are - and that is already a significant amount.

I do get your point, I just don't particularly agree with it.  I think that when you argue one side of this, you also illustrate the other side.  For example, you argue that there are people who can do the job but would not be able to use the title, and that having the title does not mean one can do the job.  Ok, fine... but that also means that not being able to use the title doesn't mean one can't do the job. 

Quote
And what of the people who are doing equivalent level work? It's too easy to say that "refuse engineer" or "sewage engineer" are misusing the term - that's not the point I'm interested in. What about the people that don't have degrees but have the ability?

Well, those people are doing work equivalent to engineers, but aren't engineers.  My sister is a midwife.  She does work equivalent to doctors sometimes - giving injections, delivering babies, prescribing medications.  But that doesn't make her a doctor. 

I know a guy who owns a machine shop and does a lot of engineerING, but he's not an engineer.  He calls himself one, but while he has a good depth of knowledge in one area, he lacks breadth.  When I was in university (for mechanical engineering), we had to take a whole lot of courses like statics and dynamics and materials courses.   The guy I know who calls himself an engineer knows a lot about machining and manufacturing, but doesn't know what Young's modulus is or how to calculate the loads at various points on a bridge span.  So he's not an engineer because he doesn't have the education to be one, despite knowing a lot (even more than most engineers) about his specific area of expertise.


I think that if someone has all of the skills and knowledge of a real engineer, then getting the degree would be trivial.  If one feels the degree is not important to the work, that's fine - and then not using the title would really have no effect.

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2013, 11:11:30 pm »
Call yourself a self-taught engineer (if your have no degree), likewise call yourself a self-taught lawyer and a self-taught doctor if they have no degrees.

What if the person has no qualifications but has been hired as a professional engineer by a company and they take the "risk" of giving them the title and responsibility? That is not that uncommon, why?, because as  IntegratedValve said, engineering designs almost never go from one engineers hand to the market without others being involved and checked.
And BTW, here in Australia, the individual can still be held legally responsible for design decisions made by them, working for a company does not protect you. Neither does any bit of paper. When the brown stuff hits the fan, it's all about showing if "best industry practice" was used.
 

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2013, 11:19:29 pm »
The fact is, doctors and lawyers are flying solo most of the time. They have a much greater responsibility on a personal level than any engineer. It's not difficult to understand.

I actually don't think that's true at all.

There is a misconception that doctors are above reproach, but they make mistakes *all the time*, and often those mistakes do cost lives and often get covered up.  There are also not many doctors who are blazing new trails in medical treatment.  It's a very flowchart-like career.  If A, then B.  If B, then C, etc.  They need to know what they are doing and the ramifications of it, but doctors generally are not creating treatments as much as administering them.

As for lawyers, I completely disagree that they fly solo most of the time.  I can't think of many other fields where there is less innovation and "making your own ideas" than in the field of law.  It's all about precedents and interpretations which do not happen from lawyers, but from other judges in other cases.  From my experience, 99% of what lawyers do is just regurgitating other arguments made elsewhere.  There is a huge amount of knowledge of the law required, but an engineer has a much greater responsibility, IMO.  A badly engineered product pushed to market can have soaring costs that are unretreivable.  At least with law, there is always an appeal process and multiple levels of review before anything really serious happens.
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2013, 11:19:38 pm »
The title Doctor is not protected (at least in the US) and neither should the term engineer IMHO.

A few points of fact:

Lots of people in the US call themselves doctors: PhDs, chiropractors, podiatrists, dentists, optometrists, vetrinarians, naturopaths, Osteopathss and M.Ds. Some practice medicine, some don't.

To practice medicine it  is not the title doctor that counts it's the education and licensure - which involves extensive supervised training, a series of examinations and regular documented continuing education and re-examination.

There are other "mid level" providers (not doctors) with much less training who also practice medicine - physician assistants and nurse practicioners- with varied levels of limitations on scope of practice and required MD supervision, depending on the state.

So - the "doctor" and practice of medicine versus "engineer" and practice of engineering analogy really does not hold up to scrutiny on many levels.


 

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2013, 11:22:04 pm »
Well I'm in the man cave so I'll try to make breif responses, but no novels ...

Nitpicking and semantics... it was meant to! That wasn't an accident.

And I said "by design" didn't I?  :-//

Hello Dave.  Let me take this opportunity to thank you for the forum :)

What if the person has no qualifications but has been hired as a professional engineer by a company and they take the "risk" of giving them the title and responsibility? That is not that uncommon, why?,

Let me edit your question and see what you think of the change -

"What if the person has no qualifications but has been hired as a professional doctor by a company and they take the "risk" of giving them the title and responsibility? That is not that uncommon, why?,"



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Offline c4757p

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2013, 11:27:45 pm »
Nitpicking and semantics... it was meant to! That wasn't an accident.

And I said "by design" didn't I?  :-//

Yep, you did. It was technically correct but not really relevant...
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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2013, 11:30:50 pm »
Yep, you did. It was technically correct but not really relevant...

Yea your right, but I need as many posts as I can to catch up to you, the "Super Contributor".  :)
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Offline c4757p

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2013, 11:34:25 pm »
But why are we all hung up over the term "engineer"?  :-//

How about a self-taught geologist? Can they simply call themselves a "Geologist" if they feel like they know enough?

Or a self-taught physicist? Or a self-taught chemist?

I don't completely agree with you, but I certainly see your point here. I think it is perfectly possible for somebody to be a self-taught engineer, geologist, physicist, chemist, or whatever, and I don't think they should be denied the title when they worked as hard or harder to get to the very same point.

I do not think that professional titles are something a person should be able to bestow upon themselves. I do, however, think that experience working in a field of engineering should be more than proof enough that someone is an engineer. If people respect my opinion as a geologist and I know what I'm talking about, then I am a geologist, no matter who taught me. I think it should be safe to call a self-taught engineering-worker an "engineer" without having to qualify it, as long as they actually are one and have prior work to back it up.

The idea that I can just call myself something and I should be considered that is silly. The idea that I can only receive the title through an approved means is equally silly.

And the title is important to many people. Maybe titles are meaningless to some people, but others want to be able to recognized for the hard work they have done to at least a level equal to those who have done it through more traditional means. And nobody wants to have to have an asterisk next to their name.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 11:48:50 pm by c4757p »
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Offline Fsck

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2013, 11:35:23 pm »
Yep, you did. It was technically correct but not really relevant...

Yea your right, but I need as many posts as I can to catch up to you, the "Super Contributor".  :)
we all do.

in theory, the "system" (/deep sarcastic voice) should stop a person from making mistakes, or end them after making a really big one
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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #85 on: September 16, 2013, 11:37:41 pm »
But why are we all hung up over the term "engineer"?  :-//

How about a self-taught geologist? Can they simply call themselves a "Geologist" if they feel like they know enough?

Or a self-taught physicist? Or a self-taught chemist?

Where the f*ck does it end?

That's my problem with all this mess - who gets to decide what their "professional" title is - themselves, or an unbiased institution who's responsibility is to make sure a certain level of education is imparted to graduates?

I love you all by the way.  :)
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #86 on: September 16, 2013, 11:45:32 pm »
Let me edit your question and see what you think of the change -
"What if the person has no qualifications but has been hired as a professional doctor by a company and they take the "risk" of giving them the title and responsibility? That is not that uncommon, why?,"

Straw man.
One happens in the real world, the other doesn't. Big difference. So your edited question is simply pointless and invalid.
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #87 on: September 16, 2013, 11:51:07 pm »
One happens in the real world, the other doesn't.

So, if something happens in the real world, that means it's right? If it happens in the real world, that means it's OK?

Surely you don't want to follow that line of reasoning.

Please say you aren't going there.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #88 on: September 16, 2013, 11:54:26 pm »
That's my problem with all this mess - who gets to decide what their "professional" title is

Society does.
Society draws much harder lines on things like doctors, but does not not really bother for engineers in many instances.
It also legally comes down to fraud. It would be legally also fraudulent to call yourself an engineer and fake qualifications etc then it would a doctor. But if you don't fake those qualifciations, then it's not nearly as bad.
Once again, society has determined that people expect and demand that doctors have the appropriate qualifications. Also electricans, or builders etc. But the same is not as true for electronics design engineers.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #89 on: September 16, 2013, 11:55:39 pm »
*insert post here*

Dammit, I'm pretty sure I clicked "reply", not "modify", but my response replaced my last comment... |O

But why are we all hung up over the term "engineer"?  :-//

How about a self-taught geologist? Can they simply call themselves a "Geologist" if they feel like they know enough?

Or a self-taught physicist? Or a self-taught chemist?

I don't completely agree with you, but I certainly see your point here. I think it is perfectly possible for somebody to be a self-taught engineer, geologist, physicist, chemist, or whatever, and I don't think they should be denied the title when they worked as hard or harder to get to the very same point.

I do not think that professional titles are something a person should be able to bestow upon themselves. I do, however, think that experience working in a field of engineering should be more than proof enough that someone is an engineer. If people respect my opinion as a geologist and I know what I'm talking about, then I am a geologist, no matter who taught me. I think it should be safe to call a self-taught engineering-worker an "engineer" without having to qualify it, as long as they actually are one and have prior work to back it up.

The idea that I can just call myself something and I should be considered that is silly. The idea that I can only receive the title through an approved means is equally silly.

And the title is important to many people. Maybe titles are meaningless to some people, but others want to be able to recognized for the hard work they have done to at least a level equal to those who have done it through more traditional means. And nobody wants to have to have an asterisk next to their name.
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Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2013, 11:57:18 pm »
Hi group,

Canada is one of the places where using the title engineer is protected. Protecting the title 'engineer' is fine, but the way the government handled it is terrible.

They gave the authority to police the use of the title 'Professional Engineer' to various provincial groups. In Ontario the group is the PEO, Professional Engineers of Ontario.

They police the use of the term 'Engineer' for fear that it might be confused with the term 'Professional Engineer'. To use the title Engineer you have to be a member of their organisation. For an annual fee of $248.60 you can use the title.

This is after you have paid the application fee and the examination fees. A full list of their fees can be found here:

http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/21891/la_id/1.htm

Here is a section from the Professional Engineers Act:

Offence, use of term “professional engineer”, etc.

(2)  Every person who is not a holder of a licence or a temporary licence and who,

(a) uses the title “professional engineer” or “ingénieur” or an abbreviation or variation thereof as an occupational or business designation;

(a.1) uses the title “engineer” or an abbreviation of that title in a manner that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering;

(b) uses a term, title or description that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering; or

(c) uses a seal that will lead to the belief that the person is a professional engineer,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable for the first offence to a fine of not more than $10,000 and for each subsequent offence to a fine of not more than $25,000. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.28, s. 40 (2); 2001, c. 9, Sched. B, s. 11 (59).

Onus of proof

(2.1)  In a proceeding for an alleged contravention of clause (2) (a.1), the burden of proving that the use of the title or abbreviation will not lead to the belief referred to is on the defendant, unless the defendant’s use of the title or abbreviation is authorized or required by an Act or regulation. 2001, c. 9, Sched. B, s. 11 (60).




For some disciplines structural and civil engineering, they do pursue people who falsify their status.

Choose wisely...

Jay_Diddy_B
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 12:13:14 am by Jay_Diddy_B »
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #91 on: September 17, 2013, 12:00:18 am »
They police the use of the term 'Engineer' for fear that it might be confused with the term 'Professional Engineer'. To use the title Engineer you have to be a member of their organisation. For an annual fee of $248.60 you can use the title.

This is just retarded. The whole reason to create a new term, "Professional Engineer", is to avoid spoiling a perfectly good English word. Then they go and spoil it anyway, to keep it from being spoilt. Morons... :palm:
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Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2013, 12:08:20 am »
Once again, society has determined that people expect and demand that doctors have the appropriate qualifications. Also electricans, or builders etc. But the same is not as true for electronics design engineers.

So? That doesn't make it right or prudent. Society has determined many f*cked up things were OK, but we now don't approve of them - such as slavery or lack of civil rights and so on.

Society is very a poor indicator of what is logical and correct. So I stand by my assertion that if you think that any poor slob that thinks they can call themselves an engineer, or geologist, or doctor, or fill-in-the-blank ______ just because they feel they know enough, or because Joe Bob's company calls them that, then you are on very shaky logical ground. Resorting to "society" to bolster your argument is not a very strong move, IMHO.  :)
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2013, 12:22:22 am »
They needn't earn it, since they already have the ability.

People are granted degrees for a reason -

The big question is :

Is 'engineer' an academic title or is it a profession ?

if you want to make it an academic title , fine for me. but then you will have to invent a profession title as well so people who are doing the work can be labeled as well.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2013, 12:26:56 am »
Because it's not allowed.

Why?

Why is it not allowed for lawyers and doctors? Come on, come on, how is it logically different?

for doctors it's simple : you simply can't experiment enough to get the required know-how. you'd be killing people. Before you get to play with living beings you;d better have your skill set verified.

You can in electronics. just blow up enough parts and you will get there. killing parts only costs money. you can learn by doing. if you burn some parts .so be it.
not so with being a doctor. i think it's appendicitis, let me take your brain out and see what happens...

for lawyers : just read enough law books. it will become self evident if you are good at it or not. if you are bad at it you may get sued ...
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Offline pickle9000

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2013, 12:28:31 am »


The big question is :

Is 'engineer' an academic title or is it a profession ?


In Canada it is someone to blame when things go wrong.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2013, 12:29:46 am »
In the United States, we call those "scientists" or "Mexicans".
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Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #97 on: September 17, 2013, 12:33:37 am »
for doctors it's simple : you simply can't experiment enough to get the required know-how. you'd be killing people. Before you get to play with living beings you;d better have your skill set verified.

And before you design bridges that could fail and cost lives you'd better have your skill set verified ...  :clap:

People, this is easier than shooting fish in a barrel. Your counter arguments simply are not logically holding water. This is like trying to argue religion is bullshit to a believer - it isn't a very good use of my time (believe me I know).  :) Go ahead and call yourselves engineers or geologists or whatever-the-f*ck you think you are, there's not much I can do about it anyway.  :-//


Anyway - I have a Monday Night football game to watch.  :-+
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #98 on: September 17, 2013, 12:35:17 am »
i suggest the creation of a new title and a profession

the 'profession' engineer is reserved for someone who works in engineering : the creation of new things and solving of problems by direct applied science.
someone who has been schooled specifically for this work and has completed an academic curriculum and passed the set criteria is an 'accredited engineer'.

There you go. problem solved.

I can keep calling myself an engineer so it is obvious what i do as a profession, and the guys that have the gold ribbon paper can put 'accredited engineer ' on their business card so people know they went to school.

So engineer becomes a profession and 'acreddited engineer' an honorary title.
( oh and please : block universities form handing out honorary titles. there's a real stinker... those guys never even did the coursework and get the title. talk about watering down ... )


« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 12:39:27 am by free_electron »
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Offline Rufus

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2013, 02:02:39 am »
I still don't see what's so difficult to understand about the fact that an Engineer's work is just plain different to a Technician's. Not necessarily "better", "harder", or "superior" in some way - just not the same.

By your definition of the meaning of Engineer and Technician which the general public in the UK don't share.

The petition and idea is silly. While the situation isn't ideal trying to change the meaning of words by legislation will fail, never mind the can of worms involved trying to come up with a precise legal definition of that meaning.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2013, 02:20:15 am »
So, if something happens in the real world, that means it's right?

Did I say that? No.

Quote
If it happens in the real world, that means it's OK?

Did I say that? No.

I'm stating a fact. The great thing about facts are that they are true whether or not you believe them or like them.
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #101 on: September 17, 2013, 02:22:26 am »
I'm stating a fact. The great thing about facts are that they are true whether or not you believe them or like them.

Oh please.

We're not talking about the fact that people call themselves engineers for all manner of reasons. We're debating whether it's RIGHT to do so.

Come on Dave, Why are you being so obtuse here?
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #102 on: September 17, 2013, 02:33:53 am »
i suggest the creation of a new title and a profession

the 'profession' engineer is reserved for someone who works in engineering : the creation of new things and solving of problems by direct applied science.
someone who has been schooled specifically for this work and has completed an academic curriculum and passed the set criteria is an 'accredited engineer'.

In Australia being an "accredited engineer" means you are certified as such by the Institute of Engineers (and there are various level of it for 2/3/4+ year qualifications). In most cases that involves having studied and completed an accredited course at an accredited institution.
If you didn't study at an accredited institution (mostly overseas) then they analyse your course on a case-by-case basis.
But it's also a little known fact that they also allow accreditation of unqualified people or those of lesser or different qualifications. But the process is much more stringent and involves detailed proposal of your work and self study history etc.
So those with their degree get instant rubber stamping to official member accreditation, and those without can still do it but have to work much harder at it.

But in this country such membership is almost never a job requirement. Although sometimes some big and/or anal companies like government or medical require you to be "eligible for membership" of the institute.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #103 on: September 17, 2013, 02:36:32 am »
We're not talking about the fact that people call themselves engineers for all manner of reasons. We're debating whether it's RIGHT to do so.
Come on Dave, Why are you being so obtuse here?

No, I'm talking about the fact that society in general has evolved to generally not really care about the title engineer having the same level of qualification as that of doctor. I said nothing about it being right or wrong, that is simply a fact of the world we live in.
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #104 on: September 17, 2013, 02:40:02 am »
See the argument this thread has created, and it is just a waste of time.

The only people who are going to benefit out of the "protection" of the title "Engineer" are lawyers.
As free_electron pointed out there is already a precedent for non Degree qualified engineers being titled 'Engineers'.
Don't make the world more complicated with new ridiculous laws.

ps. My boss asked me once what title I would like for my job. He said anything you like.

Good, I said, "Chief Scientist".

Unfortunately my cards ended up with just the title Engineer.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #105 on: September 17, 2013, 02:40:46 am »
Resorting to "society" to bolster your argument is not a very strong move, IMHO.  :)

I am not using that to bolster any argument, because, in case you missed it, I haven't started to argue whether or not it is right or wrong yet.
In that case, I agree with Vincent, and won't bother repeating what he's said because that pretty much covers most of it.
But I'll add that in Australia I think that in practical terms the system in place already is just fine.
I support a companies right to only hire people who are accredited, and also those who don't care.
The title "engineer" itself is just so well entrenched as meaning so many things in so many areas of today's society that I think it's likely impossible to ever get it changed so that only certain qualified and/or accredited people can use it. And probably tough tits if you don't agree with that, because that's just the way it is. But good luck trying to get it changed, I support your right to try, but I just think you are wasting your time, and it will be of no value.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 02:46:15 am by EEVblog »
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #106 on: September 17, 2013, 02:44:24 am »
No, I'm talking about the fact that society in general has evolved to generally not really care about the title engineer having the same level of qualification as that of doctor. I said nothing about it being right or wrong, that is simply a fact of the world we live in.

Again, we're debating whether it's right or wrong, not whether it's a fact that people call themselves all manner of titles, whether justified or not.

Using what society has "evolved" to deem right or wrong can have enormous pitfalls. You, as a critical thinker and a critic of religious nutters, should realize this.

So please address whether it's RIGHT or WRONG for a person or some consumer company to just deem themselves, for example, an Electrical Engineer, without the university credentials. Just state it outright and we'll leave it at that because we're at loggerheads. We all know what the facts are - that people do so. Focus on whether it's right or wrong now.

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #107 on: September 17, 2013, 02:59:25 am »
So please address whether it's RIGHT or WRONG for a person or some consumer company to just deem themselves, for example, an Electrical Engineer, without the university credentials. Just state it outright and we'll leave it at that because we're at loggerheads. We all know what the facts are - that people do so. Focus on whether it's right or wrong now.

Fine.
If a company hires you as an engineer, and you are hence doing the engineering work, then yes, I think it's right to use the term. You have been deemed by your peers and industry to be worthy of the title.
I also think it's right to use the term if you are a self employed EE in some proper capacity, if that's what you do for your profession, and your work has been vetted by others in the field etc. Those who chose to hire you for work make the choice if they think you are suitable or not. Yes, I realise this could potentially be open to abuse by some gullible public who can't judge that and are just going off your title, but the world generally isn't going to end. And generally speaking, the uneducated public generally don't hire engineers directly to do some complete job, you are usually hired by knowledgeable people and/or firms that have the ability to vet your work.
And as I think others have said, being degree qualified doesn't mean you are going to not make the same mistakes someone technically unqualified might make. But yes of course you'll argue that you can at least set the bar to a certain standard. Well yes, in theory, but in much of practical engineering (and I'm using referring to electronics here), in my experience having proper qualifications does not automatically equate to having any useful skills or knowledge at all. In fact I find that more often the case than not. Both sides of the fence can produce the same crap.

Should you call yourself an electrical engineer if you have the degree but have never used it or worked in the industry? No, I don't think so, you should qualify your title with "qualified" or "trained" or some other such term. I do this for my fitness qualification for example. Yes, I have a formal qualification in fitness training, but I have never actually worked in the field, nor do I have proper industry "certification" by the body (similar to engineering bodies). I have just taken the odd class here or there way back, so I don't go around calling myself a "fitness trainer" or "fitness professional" etc. I simply am a "qualified fitness trainer" if anyone asks.

If you are just dicking around as a hobbyist and you might sell a few kits or whatever, then no, you probably shouldn't be using the term.
On a side note, I don't like the term "Electrical Engineer" for an electronics engineer (which I am) because to me that has a potential association with things that I am not experienced at (like power for example). So I call myself an electronics engineer, and have always been careful ensure my employers recognise that tital instead of the more generic "electrical" title.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 03:11:59 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #108 on: September 17, 2013, 03:21:45 am »
The title Doctor is not protected (at least in the US) and neither should the term engineer IMHO.
........

To practice medicine it  is not the title doctor that counts it's the education and licensure - which involves extensive supervised training, a series of examinations and regular documented continuing education and re-examination.

There are other "mid level" providers (not doctors) with much less training who also practice medicine - physician assistants and nurse practicioners- with varied levels of limitations on scope of practice and required MD supervision, depending on the state.

So - the "doctor" and practice of medicine versus "engineer" and practice of engineering analogy really does not hold up to scrutiny on many levels.
Engineering in Australia is identical to what you described, there are post graduate requirements before holding the additional titles. And there are different categories for the different members of the engineering team, just as there are different members of a medical team.

So those with their degree get instant rubber stamping to official member accreditation, and those without can still do it but have to work much harder at it.
Not quite true, they would get graduate status. Which then requires further work experience supervised and supported by an existing member this is where the dead weights who got the degree are weeded out.

in my experience having proper qualifications does not automatically equate to having any useful skills or knowledge at all. In fact I find that more often the case than not. Both sides of the fence can produce the same crap.
Absolutely the case that all qualifications churn out dead weight, the grades for diploma qualified technicians was aimed at adding a similar second step to the process.

Should you call yourself an electrical engineer if you have the degree but have never used it or worked in the industry? No, I don't think so, you should qualify your title with "qualified" or "trained" or some other such term.
CPD ensures that only practicing people would be able to justify holding the additional title/qualification/assurance/whatever.

Its all still a waste of time for most jobs as this all flows back into getting insurance to work on high risk or high impact projects.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #109 on: September 17, 2013, 04:05:39 am »
Not quite true, they would get graduate status. Which then requires further work experience supervised and supported by an existing member this is where the dead weights who got the degree are weeded out.

Yes, I forgot to mention the various levels.
Not uncommon to find "graduate members" simply using the (higher level) term "member" though IMO.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #110 on: September 17, 2013, 04:12:50 am »
Using what society has "evolved" to deem right or wrong can have enormous pitfalls. You, as a critical thinker and a critic of religious nutters, should realize this.

You, also as a critic of religious nutters, should realise that the world and terms shouldn't be defined by elitist holier-than-though snobs either. Like for instance in the marriage equality debate. In many western democratic counties now, society has "evolved" and deemed that gays should have the same equality on the use of the term "marriage". Which I think there may be more similarities with what we are talking about here and you might otherwise realise.

Why, if for example (and there are countless real world examples), a world class engineering company deems an unqualified or lesser qualified person to hold the title of engineer, who are you to tell them that they aren't fully entitled to use that title?
 

Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #111 on: September 17, 2013, 04:18:04 am »
Hi group,

Canada is one of the places where using the title engineer is protected. Protecting the title 'engineer' is fine, but the way the government handled it is terrible.

They gave the authority to police the use of the title 'Professional Engineer' to various provincial groups. In Ontario the group is the PEO, Professional Engineers of Ontario.

They police the use of the term 'Engineer' for fear that it might be confused with the term 'Professional Engineer'. To use the title Engineer you have to be a member of their organisation. For an annual fee of $248.60 you can use the title.

This is after you have paid the application fee and the examination fees. A full list of their fees can be found here:

http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/21891/la_id/1.htm

Here is a section from the Professional Engineers Act:

Offence, use of term “professional engineer”, etc.

(2)  Every person who is not a holder of a licence or a temporary licence and who,

(a) uses the title “professional engineer” or “ingénieur” or an abbreviation or variation thereof as an occupational or business designation;

(a.1) uses the title “engineer” or an abbreviation of that title in a manner that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering;

(b) uses a term, title or description that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering; or

(c) uses a seal that will lead to the belief that the person is a professional engineer,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable for the first offence to a fine of not more than $10,000 and for each subsequent offence to a fine of not more than $25,000. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.28, s. 40 (2); 2001, c. 9, Sched. B, s. 11 (59).

Onus of proof

(2.1)  In a proceeding for an alleged contravention of clause (2) (a.1), the burden of proving that the use of the title or abbreviation will not lead to the belief referred to is on the defendant, unless the defendant’s use of the title or abbreviation is authorized or required by an Act or regulation. 2001, c. 9, Sched. B, s. 11 (60).




For some disciplines structural and civil engineering, they do pursue people who falsify their status.

Choose wisely...

Jay_Diddy_B

Everywhere you find such cave man "regulations" they are a result of incompetency in general...anyway I assume we are talking here more about EE/Electronics so...this means show me your circuit man otherwise please don't show your paper.
 

Online Corporate666

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #112 on: September 17, 2013, 05:55:24 am »
Perhaps my proposed solution earlier of a suffix (which some countries already seem to have) would work.  Then companies can decide if the degree is necessary for the position they are hiring for. 

I will admit that it does bother me when people call themselves "engineers" when they are not, because I know first hand how extremely difficult that title is to earn.  It may also be that the abuse of the term is much more widespread in the USA than in other places.  I was not kidding about the guy I mentioned earlier. He was an extremely nice guy but extremely dim.  He was a laborer working as an assistant maintenance tech in a factory.  The guy they called when the toilet was blocked.  The company sent him to an 8 week wastewater chemistry class and he could not understand simple things like what acids and bases were and how mixing them could neutralize them. 

But he didn't really need to understand all of that.  All he needed to understand was that he took a sample of the wastewater and processed it in the test equipment, then added the quantity of the type of chemical it told him to.  He was happy to be the "Wastewater Chemical Engineer" of the company and got new business cards made, etc.

I found it a bit insulting that people stole the "engineer" term for themselves so often.  A big part of it is that it's *really* hard to get a degree, and there are far too many people who think it's not that hard and they could have one too if only.... <insert excuse>.    I really think a lot of people drastically underestimate the difficulty of a BSc. 
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Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #113 on: September 17, 2013, 06:08:35 am »
I still don't see what's so difficult to understand about the fact that an Engineer's work is just plain different to a Technician's. Not necessarily "better", "harder", or "superior" in some way - just not the same.

By your definition of the meaning of Engineer and Technician which the general public in the UK don't share.
The whole point of this discussion is that the general public don't properly understand the difference between the two. They get the terms confused, and don't properly appreciate the distinction, because members of one group like to call themselves members of the other.

Changing public understanding and perception of the term 'Engineer' is exactly what making it a protected title would aim to achieve.

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2013, 06:51:28 am »
For many years I have been bemused by the British habit of labelling the people we would call Technicians as "Engineers".
Equally strange,is the habit in some countries of labelling non technical Operators,as"Technicians".

I am a "Technical Officer",or at least,I did a course,passed exams,got a Certificate,& worked as such.
Before I did that,I trained to be a Technician--did courses,passed exams,got a Certificate,etc.
I also have a "Broadcast Operator's Certificate of Proficiency" granted to me by the Commonwealth of Australia in all its awesome majesty, ;D

This last,from its title sounds like it qualifies me to be a button pusher,but no! It is at about the same technical level as the Tech Officer's qualification.-----such are the vagaries of nomenclature!
 
None of those bits of paper are required for any job anymore,but they did at the  time,& I would not have them without many hours of formal education,albeit not at Degree level.
Obviously,this also entailed a lot of home study,but I can't claim to be "self-taught"!

I just think of myself as a Tech,but in my last job,they wanted to call me an Engineer.

I said:-"Call me a Tech Officer if you want,but I'm not an Engineer,I don't have a Degree".

It didn't matter much until they needed to replace me.

Their ad (for an Engineer),brought in a flood of young Graduates who to be brutal,were useless for the job.
Really nice guys,& smart,but they would be wasting their time,& more to the point,ours!

They put it on the back burner,until I whinged a bit more about retirement,& this time they asked for a Tech/Tech Officer.
We still got a few hopeful EE Graduates,but a lot more people who might actually be able to do the job.

In most of the jobs where we had real Engineers,the boundaries were pretty much blurred as far as the type of work done by Engineers & Techs.
Either or both were at times testing equipment,designing stuff,climbing towers.or acting as an Electrician's offsider.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 06:55:05 am by vk6zgo »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2013, 07:01:11 am »
Changing public understanding and perception of the term 'Engineer' is exactly what making it a protected title would aim to achieve.

Because the term engineer is so entrenched across so many areas of expertise, I think the best that can be achieved is if the professional engineering bodies (i.e. IEA, IEEE etc) run awareness campaigns about the title and the benefits of only using someone with the professional accreditation. That's common in Australia with say the Master Builders Association etc and quite a few other industries. i.e. they know they can't stop the "unqualified" people calling themselves builders, but they can at least make people aware. But engineering has little to do with Joe Public, so such campaigns are simply wasted on the masses. And that's obviously one of the reason why the public has ever really cared, compared with a doctor or lawyer etc.
With engineering, it's simply not practical in any way shape or form for any government or other organisation to legislate the use of the term. Ultimately it's up the the companies employing people and the people hiring contract engineers etc to make up their own mind if that level of certification is important to them. Some industries are more controlled than others, either by real or imagined legal concerns.
Like I've said, for Australia, I can't say I've ever seen a single job ad in the last 20 years that has mandated that one must be a member of the IEA. Many ads sets minimum education levels for a role, but IME they are almost always flexible in that regard. But I've heard this varies greatly from country to country.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2013, 07:47:00 am »
But engineering has little to do with Joe Public, so such campaigns are simply wasted on the masses. And that's obviously one of the reason why the public has ever really cared, compared with a doctor or lawyer etc.

I think that's where some of the most damaging confusion comes in, though.

If my cable box starts freezing up, my service provider will inevitably offer to send round an "engineer" to look at the problem.

But I don't want an Engineer. I don't need a guy with a scope and a JTAG debugger to come round and spend the next few days performing a full forensic teardown and analysis of my box. It's highly unlikely that the design of the box is the problem.

What I want is a visit from a suitably qualified and experienced Technician - someone who will recognise the symptoms and be able to quickly tell whether the problem is bad blocks on my hard disc, an upstream problem with the service in my area, or water having leaked into the cable itself.

Offline KJDS

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #117 on: September 17, 2013, 08:03:59 am »
If "Engineers" want better appreciation from society in general, they'd be better off communicating their achievements than moaning about the actions of others.

By the way, the term lawyer isn't protected in the UK.

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #118 on: September 17, 2013, 08:13:50 am »
The Oxford dictionary defines an engineer as "a person who designs,builds or maintains engines machines or structures.
a person qualified in a branch of engineering especially as a professional".

 In the UK the word engineer has become associated to a large extent with grease monkeys which is why when you go to one of the main car franchises all of the mechanics are labeled "technician" in order to create the idea that their service personnel are of a higher grade than your average back street garage.

If degreed "engineers want to set themselves above above the rest they should either become chartered  or put their qualification after their name, ie. Phd. Msc Ba. or what ever this is already protected and quite frankly protecting the word engineer is trying to put the cat back in to the bag 200o years after it was let out.

A Dr.MD becomes plain mister when they become a surgeon A vet is a Dr.Vm. so an electrical engineer is Dr.EE. or whatever. why the fuss about a word that already is in so common a usage that most people think of train drivers car mechanics and TV techs. etc. You can reserve the word but you wopnt change all those years of perception so use your correct qualifications on your cards etc. |O

You can become a lawyer in the UK by apprenticeship as well as university. 

 
 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 08:15:32 am by G7PSK »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #119 on: September 17, 2013, 09:01:00 am »
The Oxford dictionary defines an engineer as "a person who designs,builds or maintains engines machines or structures.
a person qualified in a branch of engineering especially as a professional".

Not that it matter a rats arse (actually it could if it went to court), but for fun, the Australian Macquarie definition of Engineer is:
1. a person professionally qualified in the design, construction, and use of engines or machines.
2. someone who manages a ships engines
3. a member of the armed forces trained in engineering work
4. a skillful manager
5. to plan, construct, or manage as an engineer
6. to arrange, manage, or carry through by skillful or artful contrivance

So in Australia the term could potentially be legally used by anyone who actually does a form of engineering work, qualified or not, based on at least 3 of those definitions.
 

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #120 on: September 17, 2013, 09:30:57 am »
A few years ago in my non EE day job I was working with a designer from Disney on a project;  and on her business card was the job title "Imagineer"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney_Imagineering


 

Offline madires

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #121 on: September 17, 2013, 11:32:17 am »
We got a strong protection of titles achieved by education in Germany. It's not just the title it's also the qualification tied to the title for some business areas. For craftsmen for example the are two levels. If you want to become a carpenter first you'll be some kind of trainee for 3 years with 3 days at work and two days in school. Of course there's a final exam. If you pass that you're an assistent carpenter, but may not run you own carpenter's workshop. To run you own workshop you have to become a master carpenter, i.e. more school and exams. There's an exception for assistent carpenters which worked for x years already and they can apply for an exception status to run their own workshop (happens very rarely). That method ensures that woodwork as a business is performed by a qualified carpenter and not anyone who thinks he can do the job. It's the same for electricians, mechanics, butchers and what have you.

The German version of engineer "Ingenieur" is a little bit more complex :-) Until the 1970s one could become an "Ingenieur (grad.)" at a special engineering school. After that we had just the academic title "Dipl.-Ing. (<type of university>)", whith "FH" for an unsiversity of applied sciences or "TH" for a technical university and so on. One could spend some time more at the university and write a theses to become a "Dr.-Ing.". With Bologna that changed into B.Eng and M.Eng (which aren't really a matching replacement). Someone with one of the engineering degrees above may say that he is an "Ingenieur", but nobody else. But with English job titles that protection is circumvented, like sales engineer or network engineer. An assistent carpenter could work as a network engineer and may put that job title on his business card :-)

I think the goal of protecting the title "engineer" in the UK is to mitigate the erosion of it's usage.
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #122 on: September 17, 2013, 11:44:09 am »
You, also as a critic of religious nutters, should realise that the world and terms shouldn't be defined by elitist holier-than-though snobs either.

Getting a degree from an accredited university, which certifies a level of education in a specific subject, has nothing to do with "elitist holier-than-though snobs". As I've said before, a college education is more than just learning what circuits do and how to program an FPGA. A university educated engineer has a well rounded education that consists of many things - history, art, literature, and other electives. This gives that person much more to leverage in their life than a tinkerer that knows just electronics. You just can't compare the two and expect to be taken seriously.

Quote
Like for instance in the marriage equality debate. In many western democratic counties now, society has "evolved" and deemed that gays should have the same equality on the use of the term "marriage". Which I think there may be more similarities with what we are talking about here and you might otherwise realise.

I don't think that has anything whatsoever to do with it. One is an objective standard for an area of education, the other just has to do with whether two people in love can get a license to f*ck each other with benefits.

Quote
Why, if for example (and there are countless real world examples), a world class engineering company deems an unqualified or lesser qualified person to hold the title of engineer, who are you to tell them that they aren't fully entitled to use that title?

Who are they to deem themselves qualified to bestow such a title on a person? What are the standards used? Who sets them? What companies can set them? What if one company uses one standard and another uses a lesser standard? You're just using the argument that if a company does something you agree with it's right. What if another company doesn't call the same qualified person an "engineer"? Now you have a dilemma on your hands. Are they or aren't they an engineer? Ah f*ck it - everybody's an engineer if that's what they want to be called! You see the problems with all that I hope. No, I suspect you don't.

You're acting just like the snobs you claim to hate in this thread, so I am assuming you have a degree? Dave - do you have a university degree? Just curious.

Some of this reminds me of the job interview in Woody Allen's Take the Money and Run. Just FF to 7:00



P.S - I'm a doctor today, because, well, I think I'm qualified to be called one.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 11:51:19 am by xrunner »
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Offline G7PSK

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #123 on: September 17, 2013, 01:09:26 pm »
The real reason that there is a campaign to get a legal protection of the term engineer is nothing to do with engineering. It is to do with money or more precisely if you have control over the name and you can only use it if you have joined a society (no doubt at great expense). There are many such types of organisations now I get several mail shots a month about joining one or another, if you join they give you the right to use certain letters and or logo's on your stationary business forms etc, most of these all you have to do is pay up nothing more no qualifications required, some of these clubs allow any one already in that line of work to continue on grandfather rights but any body joining after a certain date would need a qualification very often one handed out by the said organisation on the answer of half a dozen questions the most important one being what is your credit card number. :-DD

If you go back to the roots of the word engineer you would have to be the builder of catapults and other war machines and the digger of ditches.   
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #124 on: September 17, 2013, 01:28:30 pm »
I just realised this whole discussion is no sense... As it has been solved long ago.

Here is why

Engineering is a PROFESSION. Somone who has this job is thus an engineer.
Somone who explicitly studied for that field holds an MSEE or a BSEE (or their equivalents for mecahnial, aerospace, whatever) . so there are your academic credentials : those are 'engineering degrees'

If someone applies for a JOB of engineer and is hired, his PROFESSION becomes 'engineer'. So on his business card he can write 'engineer'.

If the employer asks for his credentials one can say
- I have an msee degree
- I have a bsee degree
- My name is steve wozniak, i engineered the apple computer.(or other examples of stuff you actually did. Those are your credentials)

The guy having an msee or bsee can put those titles in front of the word 'engineer' on his business card. He can even leave the word engineer off, as it is redundant.
The guy that works as an engineer but doesnt have the 'ribbon' can't use msee or bsee.

Fair and simple. Problem solved.

Msee and bsee are titles used worldwide.

I would never call myself an msee or bsee as that is not what i AM (i don't have that title. Title as in sir, lord , etc...). I will call myself an engineer though as that is what i DO.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 01:34:45 pm by free_electron »
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Offline Tepe

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #125 on: September 17, 2013, 02:09:19 pm »
Msee and bsee are titles used worldwide.
Must be a different world.
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Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #126 on: September 17, 2013, 02:30:06 pm »
Quote
As I've said before, a college education is more than just learning what circuits do and how to program an FPGA. A university educated engineer has a well rounded education that consists of many things - history, art, literature, and other electives. This gives that person much more to leverage in their life than a tinkerer that knows just electronics. You just can't compare the two and expect to be taken seriously.

xrunner, seriously what do you mean? are you trying to justify the overload of electives and irrelevant subjects universities pour on students? or are you trying to tell that a liberal art course will help in designing a microwave integrated circuit? give us a break.

Universities barely touch the very basics and by no means you can design anything without real work experience and passion. Or in other word you will find yourself self-studying for the real world projects.

So protect the title "Engineer" as you wish, it will change nothing. As I said a mathematician who have experience designing electronics circuit deserves the term Engineer more than a person with EE degree whose experience is in sales.
 

Offline DutchGert

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #127 on: September 17, 2013, 02:41:50 pm »
Quote
As I've said before, a college education is more than just learning what circuits do and how to program an FPGA. A university educated engineer has a well rounded education that consists of many things - history, art, literature, and other electives. This gives that person much more to leverage in their life than a tinkerer that knows just electronics. You just can't compare the two and expect to be taken seriously.

xrunner, seriously what do you mean? are you trying to justify the overload of electives and irrelevant subjects universities pour on students? or are you trying to tell that a liberal art course will help in designing a microwave integrated circuit? give us a break.

Universities barely touch the very basics and by no means you can design anything without real work experience and passion. Or in other word you will find yourself self-studying for the real world projects.

So protect the title "Engineer" as you wish, it will change nothing. As I said a mathematician who have experience designing electronics circuit deserves the term Engineer more than a person with EE degree whose experience is in sales.

Work and career (and life!) is more than being good in making designs.
Not everything they learn u is so irrellevant as it seems at first sight. Especially since it would do a lot of the 'EE nerds' good to broaden there skills and views outside the primary EE skills needed for the job.

Ofcourse U are right when u say "Universities barely touch the very basics and by no means you can design anything without real work experience and passion. Or in other word you will find yourself self-studying for the real world projects."
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #128 on: September 17, 2013, 02:44:55 pm »
xrunner, seriously what do you mean? are you trying to justify the overload of electives and irrelevant subjects universities pour on students? or are you trying to tell that a liberal art course will help in designing a microwave integrated circuit? give us a break.

Who said a liberal arts course helps in designing a microwave circuit? You don't have a f*cking clue what you are talking about when it comes to a well rounded education, probably because you don't have one.  :)

If you want to concentrate on just electronics go to a f*cking trade school and knock yourself out in industry. Just don't call yourself an Engineer, because you don't have the education to be able to use that term.
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #129 on: September 17, 2013, 02:51:15 pm »

" Getting a degree from an accredited university, which certifies a level of education in a specific subject, has nothing to do with "elitist holier-than-though snobs". As I've said before, a college education is more than just learning what circuits do and how to program an FPGA. A university educated engineer has a well rounded education that consists of many things - history, art, literature, and other electives. This gives that person much more to leverage in their life than a tinkerer that knows just electronics. You just can't compare the two and expect to be taken seriously."


So as a Technician,all I have to do is go to Uni & get a BA,then that legitimises all my non-Uni Electronics training? ;D
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 03:42:11 pm by vk6zgo »
 

Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #130 on: September 17, 2013, 03:22:34 pm »
xrunner, seriously what do you mean? are you trying to justify the overload of electives and irrelevant subjects universities pour on students? or are you trying to tell that a liberal art course will help in designing a microwave integrated circuit? give us a break.

Who said a liberal arts course helps in designing a microwave circuit? You don't have a f*cking clue what you are talking about when it comes to a well rounded education, probably because you don't have one.  :)

If you want to concentrate on just electronics go to a f*cking trade school and knock yourself out in industry. Just don't call yourself an Engineer, because you don't have the education to be able to use that term.

Very obvious you are brainwashed to blindly trust whatever system they throw on you. Maybe this will help you think a little bit if you can answer these questions:

Person A has a PhD in EE but he's been working as a sales representative for...Tektronix or TI.

Person B has a BS in math but he's been working as an IC/circuit designer for ...Tektronix or TI.

Q1 Who gets the next job advertised for EE designing circuits?

Q2 Who gets the title?
 

Offline Sigmoid

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #131 on: September 17, 2013, 03:43:22 pm »
I think it's a good cause to protect the title. Yes, I mean one could always gather reasons how it can lead to questionable outcomes, but I think engineering is an important discipline, and often downplayed in importance.

There is NOTHING wrong with non-engineer hackers and makers, or such people holding jobs of technical design and decisionmaking. But engineering is an age-old discipline that deserves the same protection as doctorates. It's not the technical prowess that makes you an engineer, it's the responsibility and knowing that responsibility.

In most countries of the world, you cannot go around calling yourself doctor without holding a doctorate from a state accredited university. It should by all means be the same for the title engineer. You can take health advice from a personal coach or dietetician, but talking to a doctor carries the whole weight of the history and responsibility of that discipline behind it. It's a title of trust and sentiment.

This doesn't mean that there are no incompetent doctors or engineers. It just means that being a little conservative can never hurt. We definitely deserve the same legal and societal recognition and protection for our discipline as doctors deserve for theirs.

EDIT: I'm sure all engineers can recall at least one, but probably many strong "father figures" from their university years. The strict, heavyhanded professors everyone was afraid of, and whose classes operated at a 50% (or lower) pass ratio each year - and yet remained maybe the most memorable influences from our studies. :) If you recall those teachers, I'm sure you understand what I mean by the weight and dignity of the profession.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 03:50:49 pm by Sigmoid »
 

Offline ahnuts72

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #132 on: September 17, 2013, 03:50:40 pm »
My 3 cents.

I think experience trumps "Education" any day.
If someone put in the effort to learn their respective field what difference is there in 20 years experience to someone without the paper and someone with the paper.

I can tell you from experience.
I run heavy equipment and I could do things on a piece of equipment that would make someone just out of "operating engineering" school piss on themselves.
I have been doing this for almost 20 years do I have the right to tell them their paper is worthless.
No....
But they also have no right to tell me my experience is worthless either.

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Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #133 on: September 17, 2013, 03:57:09 pm »
Quote
There is NOTHING wrong with non-engineer hackers and makers, or such people holding jobs of technical design and decisionmaking. But engineering is an age-old discipline that deserves the same protection as doctorates.

Quote
We definitely deserve the same legal and societal recognition and protection for our discipline as doctors deserve for theirs.

I see where you coming from...hmmmm

Believe me no one calls themselves "Engineer" unless they have the position and duties of an "Engineer" and they are hired based on criteria whether a degree or talent.

My conclusion here is "protect our reserved Engineering job positions from those non-degree talents" though they are not many but how it's annoying that I have a degree and still cannot get the job I "worked" hard for spent 5 years at college and spent the cost of a brand new house.
 

Offline Sigmoid

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #134 on: September 17, 2013, 04:01:35 pm »
My conclusion here is "protect our reserved Engineering job positions from those non-degree talents" though they are not many but how it's annoying that I have a degree and still cannot get the job I "worked" hard for spent 5 years at college and spent the cost of a brand new house.

I think it's not so much about jobs as societal recognition.
There is nothing said in the petition about limiting certain job functions to graduate engineers only.
 

Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #135 on: September 17, 2013, 04:03:02 pm »
Then protecting the title how?

I cannot joke and say hey I'm .... Engineer?
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #136 on: September 17, 2013, 04:40:43 pm »

EDIT: I'm sure all engineers can recall at least one, but probably many strong "father figures" from their university years. The strict, heavyhanded professors everyone was afraid of, and whose classes operated at a 50% (or lower) pass ratio each year - and yet remained maybe the most memorable influences from our studies. :) If you recall those teachers, I'm sure you understand what I mean by the weight and dignity of the profession.

so , according to this you need to be sour puss and hard handed bully ?
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #137 on: September 17, 2013, 04:46:51 pm »


I think it's not so much about jobs as societal recognition.

bwahahaaa. -sniff- if there's anything that doesn't go well together it's engineers and society... why do you expect recognition.

what is all this recognition stuff anyway ? respect is earned. not granted by a piece of paper.

I think the title 'engineer' should only be awarded post-humously ...or at its earliest after retirement.
Look at the entire career of a person , look at what he accomplished and what he did. Then award him a title.

Getting a title when you haven't done anything yet (you've only absorbed stuff that has been done by others before you)  is silly ?

That is actually why there are titles like Staff engineer, Staff scientist , Fellow etc ... these are awarded after evaluation of a person by a panel of his peers in the company he works. some of these titles demand an outside entity to be pulled in (hayes-panel)
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Offline sync

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #138 on: September 17, 2013, 04:47:35 pm »
Quote
The government needs to ensure that the title of ‘Engineer’ is legally protected as it is in many other countries around the world, including Germany
[...]
Looking at the Oxford Dictionaries definition i don't think this comparison is valid. The German "Ingenieur" is not equal to engineer. Ingenieur is solely a title. For example there is no verb for it. You don't "ingenieur-ing". Or you can be an Ingenieur but earn your money with driving a taxi.

According Oxford Dictionaries engineer has a much wider meaning.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #139 on: September 17, 2013, 05:30:51 pm »
Quote
The government needs to ensure that the title of ‘Engineer’ is legally protected as it is in many other countries around the world, including Germany
[...]
Looking at the Oxford Dictionaries definition i don't think this comparison is valid. The German "Ingenieur" is not equal to engineer. Ingenieur is solely a title. For example there is no verb for it. You don't "ingenieur-ing". Or you can be an Ingenieur but earn your money with driving a taxi.

According Oxford Dictionaries engineer has a much wider meaning.

Yes an engineer is someone who contrives to do things, thus you can engineer a blind date for your sister.
 

Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #140 on: September 17, 2013, 06:52:09 pm »
Computer scientists/programmers design and create software.
Mathematicians design and solve models for real-life problems.
Tailors design dresses.
...etc.

I think "engineer" is an ancient term still used by elitist institutions and affiliated corporate applied to a limited number of specializations.

Can we now protect the title "hobbyist" from posers?  :-DD
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #141 on: September 18, 2013, 01:12:50 am »
i claim the titles chief propellerhead and electron-tamer
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #142 on: September 18, 2013, 01:53:29 pm »
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for doctors it's simple : you simply can't experiment enough to get the required know-how. you'd be killing people. Before you get to play with living beings you;d better have your skill set verified.
Not these days. Well, mostly not.  >:D
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #143 on: September 18, 2013, 02:06:34 pm »
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I think experience trumps "Education" any day.
If someone put in the effort to learn their respective field what difference is there in 20 years experience to someone without the paper and someone with the paper.

The bottom line is that you really need both. Yes, fresh graduates tend to lack practical knowledge but they should quickly learn (having demonstrated that ability at Uni).

Anybody self taught or who has learned electronics "on the job" will certainly be better than a new grad but that has a tendency to be in quite a narrow branch of electronics. The graduate's education should be much broader (as xruner pointed out). Not in the sense of an appreciation of the arts but in the sense of having covered electronics as a subject in a broad fashion and usually the underlying principles.

That means graduates have a wider appreciation of electronics as a subject (or at least should) which is important when it comes to doing the job well, rather than just doing it.

In any case if you think about it graduate salaries tend to be higher - there is a reason that market forces have caused this. It is because on average someone with a degree (and experience) generally is better at the job.
 

Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #144 on: September 18, 2013, 02:29:50 pm »
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The bottom line is that you really need both. Yes, fresh graduates tend to lack practical knowledge but they should quickly learn (having demonstrated that ability at Uni).

If you fail in practice, then you don't fully understand theory. The problem with theory it's not obvious you understand until you try and put this knowledge in practice. Passing exams and solving homework problems are not indications of anything really.

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Anybody self taught or who has learned electronics "on the job" will certainly be better than a new grad but that has a tendency to be in quite a narrow branch of electronics. The graduate's education should be much broader (as xruner pointed out). Not in the sense of an appreciation of the arts but in the sense of having covered electronics as a subject in a broad fashion and usually the underlying principles.

Again stereotyping hobbyists and self-taught that they don't study enough theory and math...BS

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That means graduates have a wider appreciation of electronics as a subject (or at least should) which is important when it comes to doing the job well, rather than just doing it.

If I'm hiring someone, I would look for demonstrated talents that I appreciate rather than how much they fell in love with the subject.

Quote
In any case if you think about it graduate salaries tend to be higher - there is a reason that market forces have caused this. It is because on average someone with a degree (and experience) generally is better at the job.

Repeating the same BS over and over.
 

Offline ahnuts72

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Re: Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #145 on: September 18, 2013, 02:58:50 pm »
Quote
I think experience trumps "Education" any day.
If someone put in the effort to learn their respective field what difference is there in 20 years experience to someone without the paper and someone with the paper.

The bottom line is that you really need both. Yes, fresh graduates tend to lack practical knowledge but they should quickly learn (having demonstrated that ability at Uni).

Anybody self taught or who has learned electronics "on the job" will certainly be better than a new grad but that has a tendency to be in quite a narrow branch of electronics. The graduate's education should be much broader (as xruner pointed out). Not in the sense of an appreciation of the arts but in the sense of having covered electronics as a subject in a broad fashion and usually the underlying principles.

That means graduates have a wider appreciation of electronics as a subject (or at least should) which is important when it comes to doing the job well, rather than just doing it.

In any case if you think about it graduate salaries tend to be higher - there is a reason that market forces have caused this. It is because on average someone with a degree (and  experience) generally is better at the job.
I wasn't trying to say an education wasn't important just that experience withouy yhe degree should be just as good.

I've been building roads,sub-divisions,etc for almost 20 years.
Why shouldn't I be able to use the term operating engineer just like someone trained in a school environment.

I was really interested in electronics as a kid but my parents or myself couldn't afford 4 years of college.
But if they can learn on their own exactly the same as they would learn in a university  and find someone to take a chance on them why shouldn't they be able to use the same title as someone else doing the exact same thing.
Learning is learning if it be by a teacher in an education institute or someone with the experience training an apprentice.
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #146 on: September 18, 2013, 03:52:37 pm »
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If you fail in practice, then you don't fully understand theory. The problem with theory it's not obvious you understand until you try and put this knowledge in practice. Passing exams and solving homework problems are not indications of anything really.

Again stereotyping hobbyists and self-taught that they don't study enough theory and math...BS
No, I didn't say that, nor do I dismiss hobyists - as far as electronics goes I am firmly in the hobbyist camp.

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If I'm hiring someone, I would look for demonstrated talents that I appreciate rather than how much they fell in love with the subject.
And if you had two equally qualified candidates one of whom had a passion for the subject and one who didn't.....?

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I wasn't trying to say an education wasn't important just that experience withouy yhe degree should be just as good.
The thing is that if you have the degree you will also build up experience and then you will have both. So once someone has matured you will be comparing degree+experience with experience and on average the graduate will be better.

Sure you will get people who have years of experience, who have learnt the job thoroughly and have a passion for it but just don't happen to have a degree. They will probably be excellent.

Equally you will get graduates who are totally useless and stay that way all of their lives.

It is also pretty obvious that to get the job done today a non-graduate with experience is probably better than a graduate with none, but on average the graduates will be better once they have some real world experience.

 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #147 on: September 18, 2013, 04:02:37 pm »
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I've been building roads,sub-divisions,etc for almost 20 years.
Why shouldn't I be able to use the term operating engineer just like someone trained in a school environment.
No reason at all.
Edit: Unless it's a legally regulated title, that is.

But if you want the term "engineer" to have defined value rather than being a vague term which doesn't mean very much you need to know that a set standard has been reached. Proffessional associations or organisations which oversee exams etc is one way to achieve this.

BTW it looks as all this is a bit moot - it looks as though several terms -  "Engineering Technician", "Incorporated Engineer", "Chartered Engineer" and "ICT Technician" are already protected/regulated in the UK (and EU). See http://www.engc.org.uk/statusofengineers.aspx

I suppose the argument then descends into whether the Engineering Council quality controls these titles or whether it's just a question of coughing up the registration fee.

ISTR that passing the BCS exam was the only route to "Chartered Engineer" for IT types. I never bothered myself since I never had any difficulty getting employment with my Master's degree in software engineering.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 04:05:38 pm by grumpydoc »
 

Offline ahnuts72

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Re: Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #148 on: September 18, 2013, 04:25:06 pm »
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I've been building roads,sub-divisions,etc for almost 20 years.
Why shouldn't I be able to use the term operating engineer just like someone trained in a school environment.


This was mainly a response to xrunner saying with no formal schooling you shouldn't be able to use the title.
But I don't see the difference in years of experience with school or without.

I don't refer to myself as an engineer but by definition I could.

But to remove my  right to use it along with someone in the same profession just because I had on the job training by someone who could teach at an operating school and they got it documented isn't right.
Different beginnings same end.

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Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #149 on: September 18, 2013, 04:43:37 pm »
The thing is that if you have the degree you will also build up experience and then you will have both. So once someone has matured you will be comparing degree+experience with experience and on average the graduate will be better

...

It is also pretty obvious that to get the job done today a non-graduate with experience is probably better than a graduate with none, but on average the graduates will be better once they have some real world experience.

Yep.

An engineer in the vain I'm talking about is much more capable than a self-taught hobbyist/tinkerer that has learned how to do electronics. They always will be. The reason is that a self-taught electronics person, almost always, will only have a level of understanding in electronics. An engineering graduate will have a very broad and somewhat narrow understanding of all the physical sciences that come into play in electronics. But moreover, they can specialize and acquire that deep and narrow understanding just like the self-taught person in any area they want to. But the self-taught person will usually never have the broad understanding of math, physics, chemistry, and so on that the university graduate has. That will almost always give the engineering graduate a huge advantage to change and adapt as needed to any new project or job, and to be able to analyze circuits and other processes that no self-taught hobbyist that some company deems is an "engineer".

Heck, in the lab I worked in I once had to design mechanical parts to make a certain system work better. That's what I mean - you can't be sure what type of challenge awaits you in the real world.

Some of the things that engineering students such as myself learned on a formal level that most self-taught people don't touch -

Statics
Chemistry
Physics I & II
College algebra
Trigonometry
Calculus I & II
Other physical science electives
Electrical power
FORTRAN (yes this was 1980's, but I adapted and learned C as needed on my own)
Microprocessors
Digital systems
RF transmission lines
etc.

And the other things such as English, humanities, history, sociology - right, all useless to some people here. But as I said this is not trade school - it's an EDUCATION.

Sure a self-taught person might know little trig or some logic and so on, but they just haven't been exposed to it on a more rigorous level.

Not to mention the core courses in electrical engineering theory. If you are only interested in electronics at a certain level then teach yourself what you need and as much as you need. But don't kid yourself and put your background on the same level as a university graduate and call yourself an engineer. That's why I am against using the term "engineer' for any non-university graduate. But I can't do much about it.  :)


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Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #150 on: September 18, 2013, 05:11:14 pm »
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And if you had two equally qualified candidates one of whom had a passion for the subject and one who didn't.....?

The better personally fit for the work environment.

Quote
Some of the things that engineering students such as myself learned on a formal level that most self-taught people don't touch -

Statics
Chemistry
Physics I & II
College algebra
Trigonometry
Calculus I & II
Other physical science electives
Electrical power
FORTRAN (yes this was 1980's, but I adapted and learned C as needed on my own)
Microprocessors
Digital systems
RF transmission lines
etc.

And the other things such as English, humanities, history, sociology - right, all useless to some people here. But as I said this is not trade school - it's an EDUCATION.

This is not even close to qualify anyone to be EE. What qualifies you is your demonstrated work experience and knowledge, which can be gained only by making something that works and preferably sells.
 

Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #151 on: September 18, 2013, 05:17:16 pm »
Lets go extreme here. A university professor of EE with 40 years experience in teaching and researching...or a self-taught enthusiast who has been designing RF mixed signal ICs for 40 years? OR do I need someone to write me some peer-reviewed wishful thinking papers or someone who design a working product?
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #152 on: September 18, 2013, 05:30:29 pm »

This is not even close to qualify anyone to be EE. What qualifies you is your demonstrated work experience and knowledge, which can be gained only by making something that works and preferably sells.

Bullshit. You graduate with the degree you are an EE. You just don't have a clue what you are talking about.  :-DD

Lets go extreme here. A university professor of EE with 40 years experience in teaching and researching...or a self-taught enthusiast who has been designing RF mixed signal ICs for 40 years? OR do I need someone to write me some peer-reviewed wishful thinking papers or someone who design a working product?


That post simply demonstrates you again have no clue about what you are talking about. And I've leaned in the ten years or so I've Administered forums that when I have to start repeating myself in the thread it's time to say go back and try to comprehend what I and others have already written, all I can do now is re-post it again and you still won't have a clue.  :palm:
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Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #153 on: September 18, 2013, 06:01:27 pm »

This is not even close to qualify anyone to be EE. What qualifies you is your demonstrated work experience and knowledge, which can be gained only by making something that works and preferably sells.

Bullshit. You graduate with the degree you are an EE. You just don't have a clue what you are talking about.  :-DD

Lets go extreme here. A university professor of EE with 40 years experience in teaching and researching...or a self-taught enthusiast who has been designing RF mixed signal ICs for 40 years? OR do I need someone to write me some peer-reviewed wishful thinking papers or someone who design a working product?


That post simply demonstrates you again have no clue about what you are talking about. And I've leaned in the ten years or so I've Administered forums that when I have to start repeating myself in the thread it's time to say go back and try to comprehend what I and others have already written, all I can do now is re-post it again and you still won't have a clue.  :palm:

Apparently I defeated you with my argument and questions that you cannot answer, probably because you cannot comprehend the simple straightforward logic there.

And you are the one who has been repeating the same "bullshit" over and over "no clue what you talking about..."
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 06:29:48 pm by IntegratedValve »
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #154 on: September 18, 2013, 06:16:15 pm »
And you are the one who has been repeating the same "bullshit" over and over "no clue what you talking about..."

I'm sure it's calming to think you know what you are talking about.  :o
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Offline ahnuts72

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Re: Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #155 on: September 18, 2013, 06:27:21 pm »
xrunner

Some of the things that engineering students such as myself learned on a formal level that most self-taught people don't.

And the other things such as English, humanities, history, sociology - right, all useless to some people here. But as I said this is not trade school - it's an EDUCATION.

Sure a self-taught person might know little trig or some logic and so on, but they just haven't been exposed to it on a more rigorous level.

I think you misunderstand me.

Im not talking about self taught people I'm referring to someone that has had training from someone not a university teacher
but with all the experience.


The person that trained me had 15 years doing it when I started for him.
Not only did I learn all I would have in school but all the knowledge that comes with years of experience already.

Say for example EE  great "insert name here" trained some one with all their knowledge.
What's wrong with that person using the title.

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Online xrunner

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Re: Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #156 on: September 18, 2013, 06:32:14 pm »
Say for example EE  great "insert name here" trained some one with all their knowledge.
What's wrong with that person using the title.

I've already explained it; again, repeating myself for people who can't follow the thread is not a good use of my time.
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Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #157 on: September 18, 2013, 06:38:52 pm »
Quote
Some of the things that engineering students such as myself learned on a formal level that most self-taught people don't.

How do you know? Who said so? Why generalize?

EE curriculum like any curriculum "jack of all trades, master of none."

When you self-study, you can take many directions, a university curriculum, a more focused approach, more practical oriented, or whatever you feel suits your purpose. And I don't understand how a self-taught IC designer cannot do basic circuit analysis or do some calculus.

BTW EEs who think they are really taught hi-math during their university course they probably have no clue what hi-math is. You learn a very basic applied math required for the major core courses. Calculus 3, multi-variable or ODEs are far away from being considered high math, unless they mean high school math then yeah.
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #158 on: September 18, 2013, 06:46:22 pm »
IntegratedV -

You know how when they find an unknown Amazon tribe and they just decide to leave them be, instead of trying to explain how they'd be better with air conditioning and microwave ovens? They just leave them in ignorant bliss, happy with their beliefs in the porcupine God and their hunting spears? That's the way I'm going to leave you.

Happy days!
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Offline ahnuts72

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Re: Re: Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #159 on: September 18, 2013, 06:48:38 pm »
Say for example EE  great "insert name here" trained some one with all their knowledge.
What's wrong with that person using the title.

I've already explained it; again, repeating myself for people who can't follow the thread is not a good use of my time.
So after reading the thread and your comments I have the understanding that it just chaps your behind that someone who didn't spend the money for school and can do the same things as you but you payed for it.
So you don't want them to be able to use the title because you payed for it and they didn't.
It doesn't make you smarter it just makes you come off as arrogant.

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Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #160 on: September 18, 2013, 06:58:01 pm »
IntegratedV -

You know how when they find an unknown Amazon tribe and they just decide to leave them be, instead of trying to explain how they'd be better with air conditioning and microwave ovens? They just leave them in ignorant bliss, happy with their beliefs in the porcupine God and their hunting spears? That's the way I'm going to leave you.

Happy days!

Why do I need a microwave oven if I don't eat microwavable food?
Why do I need an air conditioner when I live in naturally beautiful weather?
Why do I need an EE degree if I can demonstrate my competent skills and knowledge?
Why do I need to prevent someone from titling themselves "Engineer" who may have much more knowledge and experience than a degreed-Engineer?
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #161 on: September 18, 2013, 10:48:01 pm »
Give the EE a hunting spear and throw him in the jungle with that tribe. We'll see how long he survives...

in other words : the degree means nothing if you are not adapted to the environment you will be dropped in ...

like i said before : the only thing the degree states is that you passed a framework of criteria to obtain that degree. nothing more, nothin less. that framework may not necessarily fit the target job... but that's another problem.

as for the 'title' assignemnt.

first split 'profession' from 'title'. there is a basic problem with the word 'engineer' in the sense that it is both a profession and a title.

if you are engineering (look up the description for the verb 'to engineer') a product then you are that products engineer and you can call yourself that. Plain and simple.

If you have a degree in engineering then by all means use your degree if you want to. MSEE BSEE et al are recognized 'titles'.

If you have a degree in engineering and spent your entire life shuffling papers in a warehouse you have engineered nothing... you have the degree but you yourself are a waste of space when it comes to actually performing engineering...
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Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #162 on: September 18, 2013, 10:53:19 pm »
Give the EE a hunting spear and throw him in the jungle with that tribe. We'll see how long he survives...

Give them a spear?

LOL - they can design it themselves without any help from self-titled tinkerers.  8)
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Offline lowimpedance

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #163 on: September 18, 2013, 11:52:11 pm »
grooooooooan................... This thread needs the spear through it!. Same stuff regurgitated from that 'other thread' on this same subject.
There is always going to be the opposing opinions on this banging on back and forth and nothing will change, so lets move on.
  Surely there is something more interesting to occupy the grey matter?.
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Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #164 on: September 19, 2013, 12:06:33 am »
Same stuff regurgitated from that 'other thread' on this same subject.

What? There's another thread like this one on the forum? Where?  ;D
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #165 on: September 19, 2013, 02:10:15 am »

Give them a spear?

LOL - they can design it themselves without any help from self-titled tinkerers.  8)

sure. lets strip your EE of all his belongings, give him a loincloth like the people form that tribe are wearing and drop him in the jungle. let's see him make that spear ....

Sure he can make a spear, if he has access to hammers , saws, tape measures, nails, glue , a lathe , a drill, his computer ( gotta make a matlab model of the spear to check aerodynamics) and all his other stuff.

The tribespeople don't have any of that. they know where to find the right wood, how to prepare it , how to carve a silex stone into a spear tip , how to find a fibrous plant , peel thebark , make a rope out of it and tie the speartip to the stick...

by the time your gold-plated engineer has figured all that stuff out he will either be, or have:
- starved to death because it took him too long to find the source materials and make the parts to make the spear before he could go hunting
- stung or poisoned to death because he doesn't know what plants and or insects are around.
- eaten by some wild animal he is not familiar with.
- succumbed to some infection picked up in a cut he got by walking barefooted over the jungle floor and stepping on a sharp stick because his feet are used to soft socks and sneakers.
- be sacrificed to the local volcano god because he is white.

yet, the uneducated 6 year old kid of those 'wild men' has no problem making spears. not only can the kid make several spears a day, his aim throwing them is so good he can hit a monkey or bird in a tree 100 meters away , knows how to start a fire and how to prepare the animal for eating...

here is the awarding of the points :

uneducated bushman: 1
(dead) 'engineer': nil

so far for your 'engineer'
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 02:13:45 am by free_electron »
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Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #166 on: September 19, 2013, 02:13:13 am »
What you need to understand regarding what an actual engineer's training is (what their base education that they leverage their careers off of) I've already explained adequately in my reply #149 -

Reply #149

Just because you can make cool circuits and get paid for it doesn't make you an engineer. You are a talented circuit designer, but not an engineer.

You can rant and complain to me (us) that you are an engineer in the thread till Dave tears down the metal detector I sent in months ago (that might be a long time), but it won't make any difference. The title means something because it's an earned degree certified with tests and ensuring a wide base of education way beyond just circuits and the like. Almost no (I don't like to use absolutes) self-taught people are going to have that base of knowledge that comes out of a university education.  <-- most people in the thread choose to ignore this. But it's one of the most important aspects of the title.

Lot's of people on this forum can make things right now I can't make --> at the moment <--. However, that doesn't mean that I couldn't do it if interested or paid. Just because you are an expert at some electronics niche doesn't make you an engineer either. Most people in this thread just aren't grasping what an engineer really is. Thank goodness a few can though, at least I'm not alone. One wonders; if the title Engineer is so attractive, it must mean something very special, otherwise you wouldn't care. Hmmmm ... very interesting. You wish to be called engineer rather than gifted circuit designer or head electronic gadget maker. It's always nice to attach nice titles to oneself without having the title vetted by the appropriate academia isn't it?

If anything interesting or new emerges from any else's ramblings I'll add to it, but so far I haven't seen anything that indicates the complainers have grasped the meat of it. Hope springs eternal though.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #167 on: September 19, 2013, 02:26:58 am »
you keep hammering on 'the tile of engineer' which  brings us back to my earlier question:

is engineer a profession or a title ? the problem is the duality of usage for the word.

a) If you want to reserve it as a title. fine with me. but then come up with a new word for the profession.
b) If you want to reserve it for the profession ( read the definition of the verb 'to engineer' ) then you will have to come up with a different word for the title.

In my perception point B is the way to go. It is solved. We have titles as MSEE Master of Sciences in electronic engineering. BSEE Bachelors in Science Electronic engineering. there are equivalent titles for mechanical , chemical et al. these names have been used for a long time. universities in europe, us and asia deliver these titles.

That certificate says that you have a masters degree or a bachelors degree in the field of engineering. That degree is your Title. the degree is Master of Science in electronics, or BNachelo of science in electronics , or mechanics or whatever.

if you have an MSEE and pursue a JOB as engineer you can call yourself an engineer with an MSEE degree.
if you have an MSEE and pursue a job as janitor you can still say you have a Masters degree in electronics engineering, but you are NOT an engineer ! you are a janitor !
If i, not having an MSEE, pursue a job as engineer i can call myself an engineer. I can NOT claim i am an MSEE , as i don't have that degree.

if i perform the job of janitor i am a janitor
if i graduated magnum cum laude from with a janitorial degree from xyz university i can call myself a degreed janitor.

or we could solve it even a different way :

i am working AS an engineer : i perform a job in engineering
i am an engineer : i have  an official label :and perform a job in engineering
i am a janitor but i have an engineer degree. (makes me wonder why you are mucking out toilets)

works for me. just tell me what i write on my business card so it is clear to other people what my JOB is. my business card does not hold my titles. it holds my FUNCTION in the company.
That function is Senior Staff Engineer.  am I an engineer (label) ? no. Do i function as one ? yes.

There is another caveat : most countries have a provision in law (and this is recognized by universities) that says a person with x years of experience in a field is equivalent to a formal degree in the same field. For example : every 3 years in a field counts towards 1 year of formal education in that field. Given my 20 years of active duty in the field of semiconductor electronics ... i'm way beyond an MSEE .. i would be an MSEE with 8 years of experience. (according to LAW, which is another can of worms) so legally i can call myself MSEE. Would i do that ? no. Hasn't even crossed my mind. why ? if tell a prospective employer i got 20 years experience under the belt in semiconductors electronics, that is far more atractive as saying i'm an msee with 8 years experience...

And then there is another point : the value your employer assigns to you. ain;t no employer going to pay top dollar for an  engineer that produces nothing. On the other hand he will pay top dollar
for a guy that gets the job done , on time, within budget , and brings in oodles of cash for the company. You can keep your title. i'll take the cash any day. I'd rather be a title-less millionaire than a homeless-starved-near-death engineer. we'll make sure to write it on your headstone. 'He was an engineer'

now, as for the analogy with doctors and nurses : those are professions where a degree in that discipline has been made MANDATORY in order to perform the job.
If you want to make having an MSEE or BSEE mandatory to perform the job ... that is a whole different can of worms.

this discussion is about reserving the 'label' ENGINEER for degreed people , it is not about mandating only' appropriately labeled' people would be allowd to do the job.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 02:47:52 am by free_electron »
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Online xrunner

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #168 on: September 19, 2013, 02:51:11 am »
you keep hammering on 'the tile of engineer' which  brings us back to my earlier question:

is engineer a profession or a title ?

Although I disagree with your analogies, I would like to approach this in another direction. I think you are a person that I can work with, although in the end we may not agree.

I have some ideas that I think can clear up this problem, at least for the silent readers.

Let me sleep on it and tomorrow I will make a new post and we'll see what direction it takes us in this debate.

Cheers.  :)
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #169 on: September 19, 2013, 03:06:42 am »
i'm all open for discussion.

final word of wisom for the day:
if it walks like a duck , quacks like a duck, looks like a duck and lays eggs like a duck... i don't need to pin the label 'duck' on it to know it's a duck...
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Offline GeoffS

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #170 on: September 19, 2013, 03:25:22 am »
Let's keep this discussion on track shall we and leave personal attacks out of it.
 

Offline IntegratedValve

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #171 on: September 19, 2013, 02:42:35 pm »
Quote
Just because you can make cool circuits and get paid for it doesn't make you an engineer. You are a talented circuit designer, but not an engineer.

Then a person who makes software cannot be called a programmer unless he has a degree? He's a poser? joker? what?

Someone with BS EE works as a sales representative.

Q What do you do?
A Sales person at XXXYYYZZZ comapny

Q What did you study? Marketing?
A No actually I've BS EE degree.

Another one with BS math works as a circuit designer at Tektronix.

Q What do you do?
A EE at Tektronix.

Q What did you study? Electronics Engineering?
A No, mathematics.

Got it???
 

Offline 8086

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #172 on: September 19, 2013, 04:41:46 pm »
Just because you can make cool circuits and get paid for it doesn't make you an engineer. You are a talented circuit designer, but not an engineer.

 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...
« Reply #173 on: September 19, 2013, 04:53:55 pm »
engineer, n. person who has scientific training and who designs and builds complicated products, machines, systems, or structures : a person who specializes in a branch of engineering

So the key here is what qualifies as "scientific training". Let's see...

training, n. : a process by which someone is taught the skills that are needed for an art, profession, or job

No mention of academic institutions or degrees, just being taught.

That's what Merriam-Webster has to say on this topic. Other dictionaries are similar. Do you agree with them? As for myself.... *fart*
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