Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...

[AndyC_772]

It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?

I think it would help the general public to understand what an Engineer actually does, and what makes an Engineer different from a technician or operator.

On the whole, the general public has very little contact with Engineers. We work away in labs, producing designs and prototypes, and rarely get too involved with individual customers. We're unseen, and I think it's a fair bet that's one reason why we don't get the same respect that other professionals can.

I had an interesting discussion on another forum on this very subject recently; we were discussing the difference between an automotive technician - a mechanic - and a Mechanical Engineer. We all agreed that being a good mechanic involved a lot of skill and, above all, experience - and that an experienced mechanic was definitely the person whom you'd want to rebuild your engine.

What was rather sad, though, was the lack of any similar respect for the Engineer. The fact that only a properly educated and trained Engineer would be able to design that engine in the first place was a point that was either missed completely or actively contested.

No mechanic knows how to mathematically model the gas flow in a combustion chamber, or calculate from first principles the stresses on a camshaft - and I wondered whether anyone even recognised that these tasks exist and have to be done at all, never mind who does them and what their job title is.

There seemed to be a general perception that an Engineer does the same kind of work as a Technician, and that "Engineer > Technician" in some sense - with the result that Technicians like to call themselves Engineers, and the correct meaning of the word Engineer is lost.

That's why I'd like to see the term 'Engineer' protected, and used only to describe people who design things, carry out simulations, test and evaluate prototypes, produce schematics - and not people who install, maintain, repair and service things that have been designed by others.

[8086]

It's already developed by people with the necessary skills. What would protecting a title change?

That's why I'd like to see the term 'Engineer' protected, and used only to describe people who design things, carry out simulations, test and evaluate prototypes, produce schematics - and not people who install, maintain, repair and service things that have been designed by others.

So to paraphrase...to separate the 'special ones' from the 'plebs'? Not to be overly argumental, but it seems that you're going right back to that point in essence, despite whatever else you wrote.

What would protecting the title actually achieve, beyond sating the rage that some small-penised engineers have at the fact that some technicians are given job titles that involve the word engineer?

This may be a surprise to you, but the word doesn't actually just mean someone who designs or creates, though I appreciate that this is a commonly held erroneous belief.

[free_electron]

Lets do a thought experiment.
Let's assume the term 'engineer' is protected for people having the bit of paper.

this raises the following question :

1) What label do you apply to people who do exactly the same job but without the bit of paper ?
2) if the reason for protection is to lead higher wages, wouldn't it be easy for companies simply to hire people that do not posses the bit of paper and have em do the work... it'll be cheaper and the paper possesors would be largely unemployed ..
3) are we going to set a 'standard' for the criteria to get the title or does every educational institute go its own way ? nationally ? internationally ? i will establish an accredited  school and deliver certificates if you can make an arduino blink an led ... an engineer delivered by Stanford or MIT will be different than the one from Fawlty Towers University

@andy_c : That's why I'd like to see the term 'Engineer' protected, and used only to describe people who design things, carry out simulations, test and evaluate prototypes, produce schematics

This is exactly my job, can i get my title now ? and if not : why ? i fit your criteria

If Engineer is a label . let's define what that encompasses.
if, as you say  the it is a name for someone creating new things , electronically , mechanically ... then in your reasoning:

If homeless redneck drunk Joe-Schmoe around the corner makes a new supergizmo from two led's , an arduino , a bathtub , 5 faucets , a bucket and an old shoe, that nobody has envisioned before but turns out to be extremely helpful to society and he crafts up the plans on a napkin for it and has someone build them . He will be entitled to say he engineered that. after all, he had the idea, he designed it and he published the plans

[jpb]

In the UK the term chartered engineer is protected but it is generally more important for civil engineers than for electrical/electronic engineers. My brother-in-law is a civil engineer and he couldn't work without getting chartered status. In contrast I have never bothered to get chartered status as an electronic engineer though my degree in engineering science was accredited. This was mainly because I went more into research than practical engineering (hence doing electronics as a hobby).

Perhaps the e-petition has a point as regards the general public. My first job as a graduate engineer was working on high frequency GaAs monolithic microwave integrated circuits - this made me a "microwave engineer" - every time my wife told people that was what I did they assumed I mended microwave ovens!

It is certainly true that engineers have generally had a low status in the UK, though people like Dyson are changing that. I think it is more to do with the economy being centered around the City of London and the Financial markets rather than the title Engineer. Bankers, Lawyers and Accountants and Doctors and Dentists are paid much more and so have more "status" in the eyes of young people - protecting the word "Engineer" is not going to change that. Engineers have more status in the US and in Germany (for example) because they actually run companies, there are only a few examples in the UK who do so.

[IntegratedValve]

Protecting the title will actually achieve one thing: decreasing the possibility that some talent will work on a professional project.

[IntegratedValve]

...My first job as a graduate engineer was working on high frequency GaAs monolithic microwave integrated circuits...

Sorry but I find this contradicting with:

http://electronicdesign.com/analog-amp-mixed-signal/bob-s-mailbox-advice-young-engineer-julie-resistors-key-less-acceleration-an

[grumpydoc]

Also, how the hell do you become a surgeon without an MD?

Fairly easily.

In the UK newly qualified doctors obtain a pair of Bachelor's degrees - one in medicine and one in surgery. The reasons are historical so I won't go into detail. This is (depending on your Alma Mater) either MBBS or MBChB. Some "intercalate" (i.e squeeze in) a BSc along the way.

All doctors including general practitioners,  surgeons and every other branch of medicine then undergo further training. This includes passing exams administered by one of the "Royal Colleges" - e.g MRCP (Member of the Royal College of Physicians"), FRCS (Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons) etc. Passing one of these before becoming a consultant is mandatory for most branches of medicine. Intellectually these are probably not degree level qualifications - more Diploma level.

There is also a large element of continuous training, appraisal and assessment which goes on as well. You finally get what is known as a "CCT" (Certificate of Completion of Training") I think this is broadly the European version of "Board Certification" but I'm not 100% familiar with all of the steps the US system makes people go through.

Some doctors (surgeons, whatever) will also complete higher degrees by doing research so you can also get an MSc, MD or PhD depending on what you do and which University you do it through - it is thus quite common to see UK consultants who have a PhD or MD but it's not universal. Something like MRCP or FRCS is essentially universal though.

If you want to work in an academic centre in a non surgical specialty you pretty much need an MD or PhD but even there you might well find a surgeon without - especially the older ones.

In the UK "Doctor" is not protected and can equally well be claimed by people with a PhD - the protected title is "Registered Medical Practitioner".

Anyone can treat human patients though whatever qualification - "doctor", Registered Medical Practitioner", "Bronze Swimming Certificate" but you have to have a recognised veterinary degree to treat animals!

[AndyC_772]

@andy_c : That's why I'd like to see the term 'Engineer' protected, and used only to describe people who design things, carry out simulations, test and evaluate prototypes, produce schematics

This is exactly my job, can i get my title now ? and if not : why ? i fit your criteria

Sure, of course. The title describes the nature of the work that you do, and the responsibilities that go along with it. I've not said anything about academic qualifications.

[free_electron]

Protecting the title will actually achieve one thing: decreasing the possibility that some talent will work on a professional project.

That, plus it makes a group of people feel 'special'. They should give em a t-shirt. It's more useful than a sheet of paper. that piece of paper takes up room on the wall. The t-shirt you can at least wear.

Engineer is no more than a generic term indicating you 'create'

you got software engineers : they create software
you got electronics engineers :they create electronics hardware
you got mechanical engineers : they mace mechanical stuff
you got sanitation engineers: they would create sewer networks. they wouldn't be mopping up ...

[Fsck]

Protecting the title will actually achieve one thing: decreasing the possibility that some talent will work on a professional project.

That, plus it makes a group of people feel 'special'. They should give em a t-shirt. It's more useful than a sheet of paper. that piece of paper takes up room on the wall. The t-shirt you can at least wear.

Engineer is no more than a generic term indicating you 'create'

you got software engineers : they create software
you got electronics engineers :they create electronics hardware
you got mechanical engineers : they mace mechanical stuff
you got sanitation engineers: they would create sewer networks. they wouldn't be mopping up ...

creating sewer networks would be civil engineers. sanitation engineers are janitors in the US...
an amusing world of semantics

[jpb]

...My first job as a graduate engineer was working on high frequency GaAs monolithic microwave integrated circuits...

Sorry but I find this contradicting with:

http://electronicdesign.com/analog-amp-mixed-signal/bob-s-mailbox-advice-young-engineer-julie-resistors-key-less-acceleration-an

Are you implying I don't know what my first job was? Of course I worked as part of a team, and more experienced engineers had overall  responsibility for designs, but I wrote code to analyse large signal distributed amplifiers for instance as well as circuit layout and assessment.

[IntegratedValve]

...My first job as a graduate engineer was working on high frequency GaAs monolithic microwave integrated circuits...

Sorry but I find this contradicting with:

http://electronicdesign.com/analog-amp-mixed-signal/bob-s-mailbox-advice-young-engineer-julie-resistors-key-less-acceleration-an

Are you implying I don't know what my first job was? Of course I worked as part of a team, and more experienced engineers had overall  responsibility for designs, but I wrote code to analyse large signal distributed amplifiers for instance as well as circuit layout and assessment.

I'm implying Bob was on the wrong track it took him so long...we cannot really say all people learning capabilities are the same, some take them 10 years others take them 1 year.

[G7PSK]

Any one with a degree already has a protected status PHD or DR. Of course Msc is a far superior status.In germany any one who has been to university seems be called doctor.
I think that a petition to call all lawyers and politicians Liar would be a good idea though.

[Corporate666]

And they miss reason number 1 why you should consider seeking to get the title protected: To avoid any retarded doofus with a blinking Arduino who dropped out of school, because you don't learn anything at school, can pose as an engineer.

But at the same time, a lot of 'engineers' with degrees are completely stupid. I should know, I studied alongside them.

They couldn't set up a bench power supply. They could barely do the maths.

Get a 2:2 degree, while being utterly useless and call yourself an engineer, how is that better than learning your own stuff and doing it properly?

It seems that the criteria for being able to use the title will be that you have a degree. Fact is, that shouldn't be an extra obstacle to someone that knows what they're doing but lacks the paperwork.

That argument doesn't hold water - there are stupid doctors, but that doesn't mean an ambulance driver should be allowed to call himself a doctor because he considers himself smart.

There's an obvious reason to protect the term doctor, it's in the public interest.

But then, is Dr. Bob a PhD or a MD? What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

A strong argument could be made that protecting the term "Engineer" is also in the public interest.  Not every doctor is involved in life and death work, and neither is every engineer - but a lot of them are. 

As for Dr. Bob PhD performing surgery, that would be practicing medicine without a license.  And if Engineer becomes protected, then someone calling themselves one who isn't would be guilty of a similar thing. 

But going back to what I said... if the belief is that protecting the title of Engineer doesn't guarantee any level of quality, then why are people so against it?  Let them protect the title, and those who do well by virtue of performance instead of a piece of paper will continue to do just as well.

[8086]

A strong argument could be made that protecting the term "Engineer" is also in the public interest.  Not every doctor is involved in life and death work, and neither is every engineer - but a lot of them are. 

Actually I would say that every [medical] doctor is involved in life and death work. We may disagree on that.

As for Dr. Bob PhD performing surgery, that would be practicing medicine without a license.  And if Engineer becomes protected, then someone calling themselves one who isn't would be guilty of a similar thing. 

So in answer to my question: What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

The answer is: nothing. You have answered a different question.

But going back to what I said... if the belief is that protecting the title of Engineer doesn't guarantee any level of quality, then why are people so against it?  Let them protect the title, and those who do well by virtue of performance instead of a piece of paper will continue to do just as well.

The issue is that those people without the piece of paper will not be allowed to describe themselves accurately anymore, just so the special ones can feel special.

[jpb]

Any one with a degree already has a protected status PHD or DR. Of course Msc is a far superior status.In germany any one who has been to university seems be called doctor.

When it comes to academic titles there is a huge variation between countries. For example, a "professor" in a UK university is in a very senior post above perhaps senior lecturers, lecturers, readers, research associates etc, while in other countries an "associate professor" is quite junior perhaps equivalent to a new lecturer.

[Corporate666]

Actually I would say that every doctor is involved in life and death work. We may disagree on that.

Years ago I worked at a company that employed lots of doctors and was doing research into drugs that could stop eyesight degeneration.  One could argue that such doctors still need to be aware of what chemicals might kill a person, but by that rationale, any engineer who deals with batteries or line voltage is also dealing with life and death.

So in answer to my question: What part of protecting the term stops Dr Bob, PhD having a go at some minor surgery?

The answer is: nothing.

I don't think anyone has made the claim that protecting the term Engineer will stop people who are not degreed from working on electronics projects... so if it won't stop non-degreed people from doing the work, what's the problem with letting degreed engineers protect the term?

The issue is that those people without the piece of paper will not be allowed to describe themselves accurately anymore, just so the special ones can feel special.

I disagree... if Engineer becomes protected, then someone who wishes to use the term to describe themselves is, by definition, using it inaccurately.  I think that is a problem lately - because everyone likes to add "Engineer" to their title to make it sound as if they are doing much higher level work than they really are.  I can see why engineers have a problem with that, because an engineer is not just someone who wants to feel special, it is someone who completed a specific set of training that is above what many people who use the term "engineer" would be capable of.  That inarguably dilutes the meaning of the word.  I know a guy who took a night course in chemistry to handle wastewater treatment at a factory (he was a maintenance guy before).  His new title was "Water Treatment Engineer".  He didn't engineer anything.

Perhaps a better solution would be some sort of suffix like "RE" (Registered Engineer) or "DE" (Degreed Engineer) to differentiate.  But I don't think there will be a lot of people who are unable to accurately describe their work without using the word... because if they don't have a degree, they aren't an engineer. 

[8086]

I don't think anyone has made the claim that protecting the term Engineer will stop people who are not degreed from working on electronics projects... so if it won't stop non-degreed people from doing the work, what's the problem with letting degreed engineers protect the term?

I don't think you quite get the point I was making with the analogy. But regardless, there is an issue that non-degreed people will be even more looked down upon than they already are - and that is already a significant amount.

I disagree... if Engineer becomes protected, then someone who wishes to use the term to describe themselves is, by definition, using it inaccurately.  I think that is a problem lately - because everyone likes to add "Engineer" to their title to make it sound as if they are doing much higher level work than they really are.

And what of the people who are doing equivalent level work? It's too easy to say that "refuse engineer" or "sewage engineer" are misusing the term - that's not the point I'm interested in. What about the people that don't have degrees but have the ability?

[xrunner]

What about the people that don't have degrees but have the ability?

If they have the ability they can damn well go get the degree then right?

[8086]

What about the people that don't have degrees but have the ability?

If they have the ability they can damn well go get the degree then right?

Why should they be forced to put themselves in debt, and take time out of work, just to be in the same position they were before they started?

[xrunner]

Why should they be forced to put themselves in debt, and take time out of work, just to be in the same position they were before they started?

Nobody is forcing them to if they don't want to, but they can't use the term if they aren't willing to earn it.

[8086]

Why should they be forced to put themselves in debt, and take time out of work, just to be in the same position they were before they started?

Nobody is forcing them to if they don't want to, but they can't use the term if they aren't willing to earn it.

They wouldn't be earning it, they would be paying around £30,000 to buy it. They needn't earn it, since they already have the ability.

You would be creating an elite club where if you have the luxury of paying £30,000 and taking 3 years off work, you can be an engineer.

That's a bad thing.

[Fsck]

What about the people that don't have degrees but have the ability?

If they have the ability they can damn well go get the degree then right?

Why should they be forced to put themselves in debt, and take time out of work, just to be in the same position they were before they started?

The world tends to trust those pieces of paper. Would you trust someone new to you who hadn't officially gone to school to assemble the electronics for a W88 fission induced fusion weapon?

in reference to "professor": there are a whole bunch of professor grades on this side of the pond.
Canada has a similar ranking system:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_ranks_(United_States)
the wiki article (one of the relative few), does a good outline

[8086]

What about the people that don't have degrees but have the ability?

If they have the ability they can damn well go get the degree then right?

Why should they be forced to put themselves in debt, and take time out of work, just to be in the same position they were before they started?

The world tends to trust those pieces of paper.

How does that translate to making it a necessity to protect the title of 'engineer'?

Would you trust someone new to you who hadn't officially gone to school to assemble the electronics for a W88 fission induced fusion weapon?

I wouldn't trust someone that merely held the title if it was protected to do that. I would want someone with the necessary experience and knowledge. That may or may not be someone with a degree. For such a task the person would need a lot more scrutiny that just noting the title they hold.

[Fsck]

it's tangential, might as well just adapt to the rest of world instead of being an outlier