Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...

[8086]

it's tangential, might as well just adapt to the rest of world instead of being an outlier

Monkey see, monkey do.

[AndyC_772]

I still don't see what's so difficult to understand about the fact that an Engineer's work is just plain different to a Technician's. Not necessarily "better", "harder", or "superior" in some way - just not the same.

Going back to my earlier example, rebuilding an engine isn't the same as designing one. They require different skills, different experience, and it's highly unlikely that any one person would be able to do both. I wouldn't want a guy who sits at a CAD workstation all day to try and rebuild my engine any more than I'd want my mechanic to try and design me a more efficient one.

Being called an Engineer is, as much as anything else, purely descriptive of the nature of someone's work.

[xrunner]

They needn't earn it, since they already have the ability.

Says who? You? Themselves? Their grandmother?

Who says who is what? Who is a doctor? Who is a lawyer? Who is an engineer?

People are granted degrees for a reason - so you can proclaim what you are, and the reason you can do so is that you have been vetted by testing by an accredited institution. I have an engineering degree and I damn sure don't want any Tom, Dick, or Harry going around saying they are an engineer without being vetted.

Certain titles in the world have to be earned, and that's for a good reason. If somebody thinks they have the ability then go get the f*cking degree. If not, I don't give a rat's ass what they do for a living, but they can't say they are an engineer. That's like saying if I stitch up wounds for people at $15 a shot because I am self-taught how to do it, I can call myself a doctor. Give me a f*cking break! 

[8086]

They needn't earn it, since they already have the ability.

Says who? You? Themselves? Their grandmother?

Says the original assumption of the argument.

People are granted degrees for a reason - so you can proclaim what you are, and the reason you can do so is that you have been vetted by testing by an accredited institution. I have an engineering degree and I damn sure don't want any Tom, Dick, or Harry going around saying they are an engineer without being vetted.

You're special.

I'm not talking about people without your abilities. I'm talking about people with them.

Certain titles in the world have to be earned, and that's for a good reason. If somebody thinks they have the ability then go get the f*cking degree. If not, I don't give a rat's ass what they do for a living, but they can't say they are an engineer.

So you prefer an elitist system where you have to buy your professional title. I disagree with your attitude.

Just to gain an insight into the issue, would you mind telling me your age, when you gained your degree, and whether you're married/have kids?

[Fsck]

it's tangential, might as well just adapt to the rest of world instead of being an outlier

Monkey see, monkey do.

Personally, I don't think the pieces of paper are worth it. I'd prefer a test-based system. Coursework and such optional, to be used by those who need to learn. Just give them a couple dozen tests (or more for things like MDs, vets etc)
Sort of how no matter how intelligent you are, you cannot enter a graduate program without a bachelors degree.

You can extend the argument, why do we need high school? the material covered during HS is rudimentary (quite inaccurate and not precise, which you get to correct during university)

[xrunner]

Says the original assumption of the argument.

So anyone who thinks they can do engineering can say they are an engineer? Well why doesn't that go for lawyers and doctors? When you can answer that question logically get back to me.

I'm not talking about people without your abilities. I'm talking about people with them.

Who is to say what people have the abilities though? If it's left up to the individual then we'll have more engineers than you can shake a stick at.

So you prefer an elitist system where you have to buy your professional title. I disagree with your attitude.

I don't give a flip if you disagree with it. It's not elitist to make sure people have the skills they claim. If this isn't done than anyone can call themselves anything they want. It's called bullshitting. 

You didn't answer my question though - can I call myself a lawyer if I teach myself law? How about I call myself a doctor if I teach myself medicine. Hmmm?

Just to gain an insight into the issue, would you mind telling me your age, when you gained your degree, and whether you're married/have kids?

I'm 55, I got my degree in 1985, and no kids or wife (thank gawd).

[IntegratedValve]

They needn't earn it, since they already have the ability.

Says who? You? Themselves? Their grandmother?

Who says who is what? Who is a doctor? Who is a lawyer? Who is an engineer?

People are granted degrees for a reason - so you can proclaim what you are, and the reason you can do so is that you have been vetted by testing by an accredited institution. I have an engineering degree and I damn sure don't want any Tom, Dick, or Harry going around saying they are an engineer without being vetted.

Certain titles in the world have to be earned, and that's for a good reason. If somebody thinks they have the ability then go get the f*cking degree. If not, I don't give a rat's ass what they do for a living, but they can't say they are an engineer. That's like saying if I stitch up wounds for people at $15 a shot because I am self-taught how to do it, I can call myself a doctor. Give me a f*cking break! 

Says their projects and demonstrated talents.

They have the ability to invent and innovate, and a getting a degree does not require such abilities, it takes only ability to pay and tolerate the torture of unhealthy life during their course work, and of course the willingness to waste time, almost 25% of your actual age.

Doctors and layers are completely different professions, and comparing them here with technical stuff like hardware engineers is senseless. These two professions deal with people lives for god sake.

[Fsck]

Well, he said engineer as a "title", which I assume to be whatever the equivalent of P.Eng is across the pond. this could be a bad assumption, if so a more detailed explanation would be good

job titles I'd think would be irrelevant, especially since you end up with generic titles such as "senior researcher" which tells you no specifics about what they're doing

[xrunner]

Says their projects and demonstrated talents.

Why is that different logically from doctors and lawyers?

They have the ability to invent and innovate, and a getting a degree does not require such abilities, it takes only ability to pay and tolerate the torture of unhealthy life during their course work, and of course the willingness to waste time, almost 25% of your actual age.

Your response has nothing do to with the issue, because in university you are learning not just the fundamentals of the field, but are getting a rounded education. Self taught people don't get that well rounded education. A well rounded education is more than just learning about engineering - that's why a self-taught person can't be called an engineer. Because you are making a grave error in what you deem an engineer has been taught, you have harmed your argument.

Doctors and layers are completely different professions, and comparing them here with technical stuff like hardware engineers is senseless. These two professions deal with people lives for god sake.

It's logically exactly the same thing. You can't get out of the dilemma you have dug for yourself so easily I'm afraid.

[Fsck]

civil engineers design bridges, they also do buildings and infrastructure, which do involve life and death

[8086]

Your response has nothing do to with the issue, because in university you are learning not just the fundamentals of the field, but are getting a rounded education. Self taught people don't get that well rounded education. A well rounded education is more than just learning about engineering - that's why a self-taught person can't be called an engineer. Because you are making a grave error in what you deem an engineer has been taught, you have harmed your argument.

You think a "well rounded education" is good? You think touching on a lot of subjects without going into much depth, just to pass an exam is good? You think being a jack of all trades, and master of none is good?

I've been to university. I've seen the students. I've seen the lecturers. I've seen the course content. A self-taught person can do just as much, and even more learning than a student needs to do to attain a degree. That's a fact, whether you accept it or not. I'm not sure what you think university is, but it's not a place to make people smarter.

[xrunner]

civil engineers design bridges, they also do buildings and infrastructure, which do involve life and death

Yep.

Playing the "Get out of jail free" card by saying lawyers and docs deal with people's lives so they have to get a degree is a fallacy. The problem is exactly the same. If I'm a self-taught lawyer or doctor then why can't I call myself one?

[8086]

civil engineers design bridges, they also do buildings and infrastructure, which do involve life and death

Yep.

Playing the "Get out of jail free" card by saying lawyers and docs deal with people's lives so they have to get a degree is a fallacy. The problem is exactly the same. If I'm a self-taught lawyer or doctor then why can't I call myself one?

Because it's not allowed. Whether it should be or not is another debate.

The fact is, doctors and lawyers are flying solo most of the time. They have a much greater responsibility on a personal level than any engineer. It's not difficult to understand.

[xrunner]

You think a "well rounded education" is good?

Uh ... yea. 

You think touching on a lot of subjects without going into much depth, just to pass an exam is good? You think being a jack of all trades, and master of none is good?

More drivel ...

A self-taught person can do just as much, and even more learning than a student needs to do to attain a degree.

Please answer my last question logically - Why is that different logically from doctors and lawyers? Come on, I know you can do it.

P.S. the answer is it isn't logically different. Give up before it's too late - this will be on the Internets forever.

[xrunner]

Because it's not allowed.

Why?

Why is it not allowed for lawyers and doctors? Come on, come on, how is it logically different?

[Fsck]

civil engineers design bridges, they also do buildings and infrastructure, which do involve life and death

Yep.

Playing the "Get out of jail free" card by saying lawyers and docs deal with people's lives so they have to get a degree is a fallacy. The problem is exactly the same. If I'm a self-taught lawyer or doctor then why can't I call myself one?

Because it's not allowed. Whether it should be or not is another debate.

The fact is, doctors and lawyers are flying solo most of the time. They have a much greater responsibility on a personal level than any engineer. It's not difficult to understand.

large risk of harming one versus an engineer with a smaller risk (if nobody catches their mistake) of killing thousands, possibly tens of or hundreds of. especially if you're a nuclear engineer

[c4757p]

You think a "well rounded education" is good?

I do. It's not being a "jack of all trades and master of none". You still master yours. I for one would love to see a general population of people who have been exposed to things outside their relatively narrow fields.

If the students just cram in enough material to pass the exam and then forget it, that's their choice, but not all of them will make that choice, and even those who do will have exposure that others will never get.

[8086]

More drivel ...

The more 'rounded', the less you end up learning in each area. It's impossible to do otherwise.

The students that learn just enough to pass the exams, they get to be engineers.

The people who actually know engineering, but didn't take any exams, they can't be engineers? Fuck off.

What I am trying to say is that university isn't a magical place where you go in a moron and come out an engineer.

Please answer my last question logically - Why is that different logically from doctors and lawyers? Come on, I know you can do it.

The fact is, doctors and lawyers are flying solo most of the time. They have a much greater responsibility on a personal level than any engineer. It's not difficult to understand.

I'll just keep copying and pasting until you get it, mate.

[8086]

civil engineers design bridges, they also do buildings and infrastructure, which do involve life and death

Yep.

Playing the "Get out of jail free" card by saying lawyers and docs deal with people's lives so they have to get a degree is a fallacy. The problem is exactly the same. If I'm a self-taught lawyer or doctor then why can't I call myself one?

Because it's not allowed. Whether it should be or not is another debate.

The fact is, doctors and lawyers are flying solo most of the time. They have a much greater responsibility on a personal level than any engineer. It's not difficult to understand.

large risk of harming one versus an engineer with a smaller risk (if nobody catches their mistake) of killing thousands, possibly tens of or hundreds of. especially if you're a nuclear engineer

Talking about all engineers, in all fields, the likelihood of a single engineer causing anyone any harm is significantly less than that of a doctor.

[IntegratedValve]

Please answer my last question logically - Why is that different logically from doctors and lawyers? Come on, I know you can do it.

Designing a bridge or a hardware equipment does not go in one stage from designer out to mass production to public. It involves, a lot of testing done in stages, verification, checking by more then one person, and there are others involved in the building of the final project. On the other hand, when you go to a doctor, there's nothing called lets try this medicine on you before I give you the final medicine, or lets try this operation and see if it works before they can do it to other people...and that's why even the medicine curriculum, and law as well, are essentially different in a sense they spend a lot on supervised professional practice.

[Fsck]

Please answer my last question logically - Why is that different logically from doctors and lawyers? Come on, I know you can do it.

Designing a bridge or a hardware equipment does not go in one stage from designer out to mass production to public. It involves, a lot of testing done in stages, verification, checking by more then one person, and there are others involved in the building of the final project. On the other hand, when you go to a doctor, there's nothing called lets try this medicine on you before I give you the final medicine, or lets try this operation and see if it works before they can do it to other people...and that's why even the medicine curriculum, and law as well, are essentially different in a sense they spend a lot on supervised professional practice.

law = mock court, with veteran lawyers acting as graders/supervisors etc, prior to taking any real case
medicine = practicing on corpses. either way, medical students don't touch real patients without lots of practice on corpses or ie suturing beef/pork/etc

[xrunner]

large risk of harming one versus an engineer with a smaller risk (if nobody catches their mistake) of killing thousands, possibly tens of or hundreds of. especially if you're a nuclear engineer

Speculation. Any person in any of those categories could kill large numbers of people, or single people with bad practices. Doctors with degrees kill patients and make surgical mistakes all the time. Lawyers fail to get innocent people off of murder charges all the time. What good did the degree do them if they have failed? Maybe a self taught lawyer would have fared better, after all you claim self-taught people are just as good.

By the way, engineers have killed more people than either doctors or lawyers, albeit by design. Even hear of the fission atomic bomb? By design it killed a whole lot of people. Yay engineers!

Tell you what, how about this.

Call yourself a self-taught engineer (if your have no degree), likewise call yourself a self-taught lawyer and a self-taught doctor if they have no degrees. That way you can distinguish your awesome mental abilities for all to see, and it sets you apart from the degreed people.

If you agree to adding "self-taught" in from of all three of these terms (if indeed any are self-taught), we'll call it a day.

[8086]

xrunner, why do you refuse to accept that someone can be knowledgeable without taking formal classes?

[xrunner]

On the other hand, when you go to a doctor, there's nothing called lets try this medicine on you before I give you the final medicine, ...

LOL - you really think so! They do that all the f*cking time! 

Just ask my mother.

[xrunner]

xrunner, why do you refuse to accept that someone can be knowledgeable without taking formal classes?

Uh - that's not what I'm arguing about. Anyway - I have to go into the man cave and start relaxing with a beer and my kitty cat. If I can manage any more responses from my lame laptop there I'll give it a shot, but I can't guarantee it.