Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...

[Tepe]

Msee and bsee are titles used worldwide.

Must be a different world.

[IntegratedValve]

As I've said before, a college education is more than just learning what circuits do and how to program an FPGA. A university educated engineer has a well rounded education that consists of many things - history, art, literature, and other electives. This gives that person much more to leverage in their life than a tinkerer that knows just electronics. You just can't compare the two and expect to be taken seriously.

xrunner, seriously what do you mean? are you trying to justify the overload of electives and irrelevant subjects universities pour on students? or are you trying to tell that a liberal art course will help in designing a microwave integrated circuit? give us a break.

Universities barely touch the very basics and by no means you can design anything without real work experience and passion. Or in other word you will find yourself self-studying for the real world projects.

So protect the title "Engineer" as you wish, it will change nothing. As I said a mathematician who have experience designing electronics circuit deserves the term Engineer more than a person with EE degree whose experience is in sales.

[DutchGert]

As I've said before, a college education is more than just learning what circuits do and how to program an FPGA. A university educated engineer has a well rounded education that consists of many things - history, art, literature, and other electives. This gives that person much more to leverage in their life than a tinkerer that knows just electronics. You just can't compare the two and expect to be taken seriously.

xrunner, seriously what do you mean? are you trying to justify the overload of electives and irrelevant subjects universities pour on students? or are you trying to tell that a liberal art course will help in designing a microwave integrated circuit? give us a break.

Universities barely touch the very basics and by no means you can design anything without real work experience and passion. Or in other word you will find yourself self-studying for the real world projects.

So protect the title "Engineer" as you wish, it will change nothing. As I said a mathematician who have experience designing electronics circuit deserves the term Engineer more than a person with EE degree whose experience is in sales.

Work and career (and life!) is more than being good in making designs.
Not everything they learn u is so irrellevant as it seems at first sight. Especially since it would do a lot of the 'EE nerds' good to broaden there skills and views outside the primary EE skills needed for the job.

Ofcourse U are right when u say "Universities barely touch the very basics and by no means you can design anything without real work experience and passion. Or in other word you will find yourself self-studying for the real world projects."

[xrunner]

xrunner, seriously what do you mean? are you trying to justify the overload of electives and irrelevant subjects universities pour on students? or are you trying to tell that a liberal art course will help in designing a microwave integrated circuit? give us a break.

Who said a liberal arts course helps in designing a microwave circuit? You don't have a f*cking clue what you are talking about when it comes to a well rounded education, probably because you don't have one. 

If you want to concentrate on just electronics go to a f*cking trade school and knock yourself out in industry. Just don't call yourself an Engineer, because you don't have the education to be able to use that term.

[vk6zgo]

" Getting a degree from an accredited university, which certifies a level of education in a specific subject, has nothing to do with "elitist holier-than-though snobs". As I've said before, a college education is more than just learning what circuits do and how to program an FPGA. A university educated engineer has a well rounded education that consists of many things - history, art, literature, and other electives. This gives that person much more to leverage in their life than a tinkerer that knows just electronics. You just can't compare the two and expect to be taken seriously."


So as a Technician,all I have to do is go to Uni & get a BA,then that legitimises all my non-Uni Electronics training?

[IntegratedValve]

xrunner, seriously what do you mean? are you trying to justify the overload of electives and irrelevant subjects universities pour on students? or are you trying to tell that a liberal art course will help in designing a microwave integrated circuit? give us a break.

Who said a liberal arts course helps in designing a microwave circuit? You don't have a f*cking clue what you are talking about when it comes to a well rounded education, probably because you don't have one. 

If you want to concentrate on just electronics go to a f*cking trade school and knock yourself out in industry. Just don't call yourself an Engineer, because you don't have the education to be able to use that term.

Very obvious you are brainwashed to blindly trust whatever system they throw on you. Maybe this will help you think a little bit if you can answer these questions:

Person A has a PhD in EE but he's been working as a sales representative for...Tektronix or TI.

Person B has a BS in math but he's been working as an IC/circuit designer for ...Tektronix or TI.

Q1 Who gets the next job advertised for EE designing circuits?

Q2 Who gets the title?

[Sigmoid]

I think it's a good cause to protect the title. Yes, I mean one could always gather reasons how it can lead to questionable outcomes, but I think engineering is an important discipline, and often downplayed in importance.

There is NOTHING wrong with non-engineer hackers and makers, or such people holding jobs of technical design and decisionmaking. But engineering is an age-old discipline that deserves the same protection as doctorates. It's not the technical prowess that makes you an engineer, it's the responsibility and knowing that responsibility.

In most countries of the world, you cannot go around calling yourself doctor without holding a doctorate from a state accredited university. It should by all means be the same for the title engineer. You can take health advice from a personal coach or dietetician, but talking to a doctor carries the whole weight of the history and responsibility of that discipline behind it. It's a title of trust and sentiment.

This doesn't mean that there are no incompetent doctors or engineers. It just means that being a little conservative can never hurt. We definitely deserve the same legal and societal recognition and protection for our discipline as doctors deserve for theirs.

EDIT: I'm sure all engineers can recall at least one, but probably many strong "father figures" from their university years. The strict, heavyhanded professors everyone was afraid of, and whose classes operated at a 50% (or lower) pass ratio each year - and yet remained maybe the most memorable influences from our studies. If you recall those teachers, I'm sure you understand what I mean by the weight and dignity of the profession.

[ahnuts72]

My 3 cents.

I think experience trumps "Education" any day.
If someone put in the effort to learn their respective field what difference is there in 20 years experience to someone without the paper and someone with the paper.

I can tell you from experience.
I run heavy equipment and I could do things on a piece of equipment that would make someone just out of "operating engineering" school piss on themselves.
I have been doing this for almost 20 years do I have the right to tell them their paper is worthless.
No....
But they also have no right to tell me my experience is worthless either.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

[IntegratedValve]

There is NOTHING wrong with non-engineer hackers and makers, or such people holding jobs of technical design and decisionmaking. But engineering is an age-old discipline that deserves the same protection as doctorates.

We definitely deserve the same legal and societal recognition and protection for our discipline as doctors deserve for theirs.

I see where you coming from...hmmmm

Believe me no one calls themselves "Engineer" unless they have the position and duties of an "Engineer" and they are hired based on criteria whether a degree or talent.

My conclusion here is "protect our reserved Engineering job positions from those non-degree talents" though they are not many but how it's annoying that I have a degree and still cannot get the job I "worked" hard for spent 5 years at college and spent the cost of a brand new house.

[Sigmoid]

My conclusion here is "protect our reserved Engineering job positions from those non-degree talents" though they are not many but how it's annoying that I have a degree and still cannot get the job I "worked" hard for spent 5 years at college and spent the cost of a brand new house.

I think it's not so much about jobs as societal recognition.
There is nothing said in the petition about limiting certain job functions to graduate engineers only.

[IntegratedValve]

Then protecting the title how?

I cannot joke and say hey I'm .... Engineer?

[free_electron]

EDIT: I'm sure all engineers can recall at least one, but probably many strong "father figures" from their university years. The strict, heavyhanded professors everyone was afraid of, and whose classes operated at a 50% (or lower) pass ratio each year - and yet remained maybe the most memorable influences from our studies. If you recall those teachers, I'm sure you understand what I mean by the weight and dignity of the profession.

so , according to this you need to be sour puss and hard handed bully ?
i can spit vitriol like the best of em...

[free_electron]

I think it's not so much about jobs as societal recognition.

bwahahaaa. -sniff- if there's anything that doesn't go well together it's engineers and society... why do you expect recognition.

what is all this recognition stuff anyway ? respect is earned. not granted by a piece of paper.

I think the title 'engineer' should only be awarded post-humously ...or at its earliest after retirement.
Look at the entire career of a person , look at what he accomplished and what he did. Then award him a title.

Getting a title when you haven't done anything yet (you've only absorbed stuff that has been done by others before you)  is silly ?

That is actually why there are titles like Staff engineer, Staff scientist , Fellow etc ... these are awarded after evaluation of a person by a panel of his peers in the company he works. some of these titles demand an outside entity to be pulled in (hayes-panel)

[sync]

The government needs to ensure that the title of ‘Engineer’ is legally protected as it is in many other countries around the world, including Germany
[...]

Looking at the Oxford Dictionaries definition i don't think this comparison is valid. The German "Ingenieur" is not equal to engineer. Ingenieur is solely a title. For example there is no verb for it. You don't "ingenieur-ing". Or you can be an Ingenieur but earn your money with driving a taxi.

According Oxford Dictionaries engineer has a much wider meaning.

[G7PSK]

The government needs to ensure that the title of ‘Engineer’ is legally protected as it is in many other countries around the world, including Germany
[...]

Looking at the Oxford Dictionaries definition i don't think this comparison is valid. The German "Ingenieur" is not equal to engineer. Ingenieur is solely a title. For example there is no verb for it. You don't "ingenieur-ing". Or you can be an Ingenieur but earn your money with driving a taxi.

According Oxford Dictionaries engineer has a much wider meaning.

Yes an engineer is someone who contrives to do things, thus you can engineer a blind date for your sister.

[IntegratedValve]

Computer scientists/programmers design and create software.
Mathematicians design and solve models for real-life problems.
Tailors design dresses.
...etc.

I think "engineer" is an ancient term still used by elitist institutions and affiliated corporate applied to a limited number of specializations.

Can we now protect the title "hobbyist" from posers? 

[free_electron]

i claim the titles chief propellerhead and electron-tamer

[grumpydoc]

for doctors it's simple : you simply can't experiment enough to get the required know-how. you'd be killing people. Before you get to play with living beings you;d better have your skill set verified.

Not these days. Well, mostly not. 

[grumpydoc]

I think experience trumps "Education" any day.
If someone put in the effort to learn their respective field what difference is there in 20 years experience to someone without the paper and someone with the paper.

The bottom line is that you really need both. Yes, fresh graduates tend to lack practical knowledge but they should quickly learn (having demonstrated that ability at Uni).

Anybody self taught or who has learned electronics "on the job" will certainly be better than a new grad but that has a tendency to be in quite a narrow branch of electronics. The graduate's education should be much broader (as xruner pointed out). Not in the sense of an appreciation of the arts but in the sense of having covered electronics as a subject in a broad fashion and usually the underlying principles.

That means graduates have a wider appreciation of electronics as a subject (or at least should) which is important when it comes to doing the job well, rather than just doing it.

In any case if you think about it graduate salaries tend to be higher - there is a reason that market forces have caused this. It is because on average someone with a degree (and experience) generally is better at the job.

[IntegratedValve]

The bottom line is that you really need both. Yes, fresh graduates tend to lack practical knowledge but they should quickly learn (having demonstrated that ability at Uni).

If you fail in practice, then you don't fully understand theory. The problem with theory it's not obvious you understand until you try and put this knowledge in practice. Passing exams and solving homework problems are not indications of anything really.

Anybody self taught or who has learned electronics "on the job" will certainly be better than a new grad but that has a tendency to be in quite a narrow branch of electronics. The graduate's education should be much broader (as xruner pointed out). Not in the sense of an appreciation of the arts but in the sense of having covered electronics as a subject in a broad fashion and usually the underlying principles.

Again stereotyping hobbyists and self-taught that they don't study enough theory and math...BS

That means graduates have a wider appreciation of electronics as a subject (or at least should) which is important when it comes to doing the job well, rather than just doing it.

If I'm hiring someone, I would look for demonstrated talents that I appreciate rather than how much they fell in love with the subject.

In any case if you think about it graduate salaries tend to be higher - there is a reason that market forces have caused this. It is because on average someone with a degree (and experience) generally is better at the job.

Repeating the same BS over and over.

[ahnuts72]

I think experience trumps "Education" any day.
If someone put in the effort to learn their respective field what difference is there in 20 years experience to someone without the paper and someone with the paper.

The bottom line is that you really need both. Yes, fresh graduates tend to lack practical knowledge but they should quickly learn (having demonstrated that ability at Uni).

Anybody self taught or who has learned electronics "on the job" will certainly be better than a new grad but that has a tendency to be in quite a narrow branch of electronics. The graduate's education should be much broader (as xruner pointed out). Not in the sense of an appreciation of the arts but in the sense of having covered electronics as a subject in a broad fashion and usually the underlying principles.

That means graduates have a wider appreciation of electronics as a subject (or at least should) which is important when it comes to doing the job well, rather than just doing it.

In any case if you think about it graduate salaries tend to be higher - there is a reason that market forces have caused this. It is because on average someone with a degree (and  experience) generally is better at the job.

I wasn't trying to say an education wasn't important just that experience withouy yhe degree should be just as good.

I've been building roads,sub-divisions,etc for almost 20 years.
Why shouldn't I be able to use the term operating engineer just like someone trained in a school environment.

I was really interested in electronics as a kid but my parents or myself couldn't afford 4 years of college.
But if they can learn on their own exactly the same as they would learn in a university  and find someone to take a chance on them why shouldn't they be able to use the same title as someone else doing the exact same thing.
Learning is learning if it be by a teacher in an education institute or someone with the experience training an apprentice.

[grumpydoc]

If you fail in practice, then you don't fully understand theory. The problem with theory it's not obvious you understand until you try and put this knowledge in practice. Passing exams and solving homework problems are not indications of anything really.

Again stereotyping hobbyists and self-taught that they don't study enough theory and math...BS

No, I didn't say that, nor do I dismiss hobyists - as far as electronics goes I am firmly in the hobbyist camp.

If I'm hiring someone, I would look for demonstrated talents that I appreciate rather than how much they fell in love with the subject.

And if you had two equally qualified candidates one of whom had a passion for the subject and one who didn't.....?

I wasn't trying to say an education wasn't important just that experience withouy yhe degree should be just as good.

The thing is that if you have the degree you will also build up experience and then you will have both. So once someone has matured you will be comparing degree+experience with experience and on average the graduate will be better.

Sure you will get people who have years of experience, who have learnt the job thoroughly and have a passion for it but just don't happen to have a degree. They will probably be excellent.

Equally you will get graduates who are totally useless and stay that way all of their lives.

It is also pretty obvious that to get the job done today a non-graduate with experience is probably better than a graduate with none, but on average the graduates will be better once they have some real world experience.

[grumpydoc]

I've been building roads,sub-divisions,etc for almost 20 years.
Why shouldn't I be able to use the term operating engineer just like someone trained in a school environment.

No reason at all.
Edit: Unless it's a legally regulated title, that is.

But if you want the term "engineer" to have defined value rather than being a vague term which doesn't mean very much you need to know that a set standard has been reached. Proffessional associations or organisations which oversee exams etc is one way to achieve this.

BTW it looks as all this is a bit moot - it looks as though several terms -  "Engineering Technician", "Incorporated Engineer", "Chartered Engineer" and "ICT Technician" are already protected/regulated in the UK (and EU). See http://www.engc.org.uk/statusofengineers.aspx

I suppose the argument then descends into whether the Engineering Council quality controls these titles or whether it's just a question of coughing up the registration fee.

ISTR that passing the BCS exam was the only route to "Chartered Engineer" for IT types. I never bothered myself since I never had any difficulty getting employment with my Master's degree in software engineering.

[ahnuts72]

I've been building roads,sub-divisions,etc for almost 20 years.
Why shouldn't I be able to use the term operating engineer just like someone trained in a school environment.

This was mainly a response to xrunner saying with no formal schooling you shouldn't be able to use the title.
But I don't see the difference in years of experience with school or without.

I don't refer to myself as an engineer but by definition I could.

But to remove my  right to use it along with someone in the same profession just because I had on the job training by someone who could teach at an operating school and they got it documented isn't right.
Different beginnings same end.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

[xrunner]

The thing is that if you have the degree you will also build up experience and then you will have both. So once someone has matured you will be comparing degree+experience with experience and on average the graduate will be better

...

It is also pretty obvious that to get the job done today a non-graduate with experience is probably better than a graduate with none, but on average the graduates will be better once they have some real world experience.

Yep.

An engineer in the vain I'm talking about is much more capable than a self-taught hobbyist/tinkerer that has learned how to do electronics. They always will be. The reason is that a self-taught electronics person, almost always, will only have a level of understanding in electronics. An engineering graduate will have a very broad and somewhat narrow understanding of all the physical sciences that come into play in electronics. But moreover, they can specialize and acquire that deep and narrow understanding just like the self-taught person in any area they want to. But the self-taught person will usually never have the broad understanding of math, physics, chemistry, and so on that the university graduate has. That will almost always give the engineering graduate a huge advantage to change and adapt as needed to any new project or job, and to be able to analyze circuits and other processes that no self-taught hobbyist that some company deems is an "engineer".

Heck, in the lab I worked in I once had to design mechanical parts to make a certain system work better. That's what I mean - you can't be sure what type of challenge awaits you in the real world.

Some of the things that engineering students such as myself learned on a formal level that most self-taught people don't touch -

Statics
Chemistry
Physics I & II
College algebra
Trigonometry
Calculus I & II
Other physical science electives
Electrical power
FORTRAN (yes this was 1980's, but I adapted and learned C as needed on my own)
Microprocessors
Digital systems
RF transmission lines
etc.

And the other things such as English, humanities, history, sociology - right, all useless to some people here. But as I said this is not trade school - it's an EDUCATION.

Sure a self-taught person might know little trig or some logic and so on, but they just haven't been exposed to it on a more rigorous level.

Not to mention the core courses in electrical engineering theory. If you are only interested in electronics at a certain level then teach yourself what you need and as much as you need. But don't kid yourself and put your background on the same level as a university graduate and call yourself an engineer. That's why I am against using the term "engineer' for any non-university graduate. But I can't do much about it.