Petition to protect the title "Engineer" in the UK...

[IntegratedValve]

And if you had two equally qualified candidates one of whom had a passion for the subject and one who didn't.....?

The better personally fit for the work environment.

Some of the things that engineering students such as myself learned on a formal level that most self-taught people don't touch -

Statics
Chemistry
Physics I & II
College algebra
Trigonometry
Calculus I & II
Other physical science electives
Electrical power
FORTRAN (yes this was 1980's, but I adapted and learned C as needed on my own)
Microprocessors
Digital systems
RF transmission lines
etc.

And the other things such as English, humanities, history, sociology - right, all useless to some people here. But as I said this is not trade school - it's an EDUCATION.

This is not even close to qualify anyone to be EE. What qualifies you is your demonstrated work experience and knowledge, which can be gained only by making something that works and preferably sells.

[IntegratedValve]

Lets go extreme here. A university professor of EE with 40 years experience in teaching and researching...or a self-taught enthusiast who has been designing RF mixed signal ICs for 40 years? OR do I need someone to write me some peer-reviewed wishful thinking papers or someone who design a working product?

[xrunner]

This is not even close to qualify anyone to be EE. What qualifies you is your demonstrated work experience and knowledge, which can be gained only by making something that works and preferably sells.

Bullshit. You graduate with the degree you are an EE. You just don't have a clue what you are talking about. 

Lets go extreme here. A university professor of EE with 40 years experience in teaching and researching...or a self-taught enthusiast who has been designing RF mixed signal ICs for 40 years? OR do I need someone to write me some peer-reviewed wishful thinking papers or someone who design a working product?

That post simply demonstrates you again have no clue about what you are talking about. And I've leaned in the ten years or so I've Administered forums that when I have to start repeating myself in the thread it's time to say go back and try to comprehend what I and others have already written, all I can do now is re-post it again and you still won't have a clue. 

[IntegratedValve]

This is not even close to qualify anyone to be EE. What qualifies you is your demonstrated work experience and knowledge, which can be gained only by making something that works and preferably sells.

Bullshit. You graduate with the degree you are an EE. You just don't have a clue what you are talking about. 

Lets go extreme here. A university professor of EE with 40 years experience in teaching and researching...or a self-taught enthusiast who has been designing RF mixed signal ICs for 40 years? OR do I need someone to write me some peer-reviewed wishful thinking papers or someone who design a working product?

That post simply demonstrates you again have no clue about what you are talking about. And I've leaned in the ten years or so I've Administered forums that when I have to start repeating myself in the thread it's time to say go back and try to comprehend what I and others have already written, all I can do now is re-post it again and you still won't have a clue. 

Apparently I defeated you with my argument and questions that you cannot answer, probably because you cannot comprehend the simple straightforward logic there.

And you are the one who has been repeating the same "bullshit" over and over "no clue what you talking about..."

[xrunner]

And you are the one who has been repeating the same "bullshit" over and over "no clue what you talking about..."

I'm sure it's calming to think you know what you are talking about. 

[ahnuts72]

xrunner

Some of the things that engineering students such as myself learned on a formal level that most self-taught people don't.

And the other things such as English, humanities, history, sociology - right, all useless to some people here. But as I said this is not trade school - it's an EDUCATION.

Sure a self-taught person might know little trig or some logic and so on, but they just haven't been exposed to it on a more rigorous level.

I think you misunderstand me.

Im not talking about self taught people I'm referring to someone that has had training from someone not a university teacher
but with all the experience.


The person that trained me had 15 years doing it when I started for him.
Not only did I learn all I would have in school but all the knowledge that comes with years of experience already.

Say for example EE  great "insert name here" trained some one with all their knowledge.
What's wrong with that person using the title.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

[xrunner]

Say for example EE  great "insert name here" trained some one with all their knowledge.
What's wrong with that person using the title.

I've already explained it; again, repeating myself for people who can't follow the thread is not a good use of my time.

[IntegratedValve]

Some of the things that engineering students such as myself learned on a formal level that most self-taught people don't.

How do you know? Who said so? Why generalize?

EE curriculum like any curriculum "jack of all trades, master of none."

When you self-study, you can take many directions, a university curriculum, a more focused approach, more practical oriented, or whatever you feel suits your purpose. And I don't understand how a self-taught IC designer cannot do basic circuit analysis or do some calculus.

BTW EEs who think they are really taught hi-math during their university course they probably have no clue what hi-math is. You learn a very basic applied math required for the major core courses. Calculus 3, multi-variable or ODEs are far away from being considered high math, unless they mean high school math then yeah.

[xrunner]

IntegratedV -

You know how when they find an unknown Amazon tribe and they just decide to leave them be, instead of trying to explain how they'd be better with air conditioning and microwave ovens? They just leave them in ignorant bliss, happy with their beliefs in the porcupine God and their hunting spears? That's the way I'm going to leave you.

Happy days!

[ahnuts72]

Say for example EE  great "insert name here" trained some one with all their knowledge.
What's wrong with that person using the title.

I've already explained it; again, repeating myself for people who can't follow the thread is not a good use of my time.

So after reading the thread and your comments I have the understanding that it just chaps your behind that someone who didn't spend the money for school and can do the same things as you but you payed for it.
So you don't want them to be able to use the title because you payed for it and they didn't.
It doesn't make you smarter it just makes you come off as arrogant.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

[IntegratedValve]

IntegratedV -

You know how when they find an unknown Amazon tribe and they just decide to leave them be, instead of trying to explain how they'd be better with air conditioning and microwave ovens? They just leave them in ignorant bliss, happy with their beliefs in the porcupine God and their hunting spears? That's the way I'm going to leave you.

Happy days!

Why do I need a microwave oven if I don't eat microwavable food?
Why do I need an air conditioner when I live in naturally beautiful weather?
Why do I need an EE degree if I can demonstrate my competent skills and knowledge?
Why do I need to prevent someone from titling themselves "Engineer" who may have much more knowledge and experience than a degreed-Engineer?

[free_electron]

Give the EE a hunting spear and throw him in the jungle with that tribe. We'll see how long he survives...

in other words : the degree means nothing if you are not adapted to the environment you will be dropped in ...

like i said before : the only thing the degree states is that you passed a framework of criteria to obtain that degree. nothing more, nothin less. that framework may not necessarily fit the target job... but that's another problem.

as for the 'title' assignemnt.

first split 'profession' from 'title'. there is a basic problem with the word 'engineer' in the sense that it is both a profession and a title.

if you are engineering (look up the description for the verb 'to engineer') a product then you are that products engineer and you can call yourself that. Plain and simple.

If you have a degree in engineering then by all means use your degree if you want to. MSEE BSEE et al are recognized 'titles'.

If you have a degree in engineering and spent your entire life shuffling papers in a warehouse you have engineered nothing... you have the degree but you yourself are a waste of space when it comes to actually performing engineering...

[xrunner]

Give the EE a hunting spear and throw him in the jungle with that tribe. We'll see how long he survives...

Give them a spear?

LOL - they can design it themselves without any help from self-titled tinkerers. 

[lowimpedance]

grooooooooan................... This thread needs the spear through it!. Same stuff regurgitated from that 'other thread' on this same subject.
There is always going to be the opposing opinions on this banging on back and forth and nothing will change, so lets move on.
  Surely there is something more interesting to occupy the grey matter?.

[xrunner]

Same stuff regurgitated from that 'other thread' on this same subject.

What? There's another thread like this one on the forum? Where? 

[free_electron]

Give them a spear?

LOL - they can design it themselves without any help from self-titled tinkerers. 

sure. lets strip your EE of all his belongings, give him a loincloth like the people form that tribe are wearing and drop him in the jungle. let's see him make that spear ....

Sure he can make a spear, if he has access to hammers , saws, tape measures, nails, glue , a lathe , a drill, his computer ( gotta make a matlab model of the spear to check aerodynamics) and all his other stuff.

The tribespeople don't have any of that. they know where to find the right wood, how to prepare it , how to carve a silex stone into a spear tip , how to find a fibrous plant , peel thebark , make a rope out of it and tie the speartip to the stick...

by the time your gold-plated engineer has figured all that stuff out he will either be, or have:
- starved to death because it took him too long to find the source materials and make the parts to make the spear before he could go hunting
- stung or poisoned to death because he doesn't know what plants and or insects are around.
- eaten by some wild animal he is not familiar with.
- succumbed to some infection picked up in a cut he got by walking barefooted over the jungle floor and stepping on a sharp stick because his feet are used to soft socks and sneakers.
- be sacrificed to the local volcano god because he is white.

yet, the uneducated 6 year old kid of those 'wild men' has no problem making spears. not only can the kid make several spears a day, his aim throwing them is so good he can hit a monkey or bird in a tree 100 meters away , knows how to start a fire and how to prepare the animal for eating...

here is the awarding of the points :

uneducated bushman: 1
(dead) 'engineer': nil

so far for your 'engineer'

[xrunner]

What you need to understand regarding what an actual engineer's training is (what their base education that they leverage their careers off of) I've already explained adequately in my reply #149 -

Reply #149

Just because you can make cool circuits and get paid for it doesn't make you an engineer. You are a talented circuit designer, but not an engineer.

You can rant and complain to me (us) that you are an engineer in the thread till Dave tears down the metal detector I sent in months ago (that might be a long time), but it won't make any difference. The title means something because it's an earned degree certified with tests and ensuring a wide base of education way beyond just circuits and the like. Almost no (I don't like to use absolutes) self-taught people are going to have that base of knowledge that comes out of a university education.  <-- most people in the thread choose to ignore this. But it's one of the most important aspects of the title.

Lot's of people on this forum can make things right now I can't make --> at the moment <--. However, that doesn't mean that I couldn't do it if interested or paid. Just because you are an expert at some electronics niche doesn't make you an engineer either. Most people in this thread just aren't grasping what an engineer really is. Thank goodness a few can though, at least I'm not alone. One wonders; if the title Engineer is so attractive, it must mean something very special, otherwise you wouldn't care. Hmmmm ... very interesting. You wish to be called engineer rather than gifted circuit designer or head electronic gadget maker. It's always nice to attach nice titles to oneself without having the title vetted by the appropriate academia isn't it?

If anything interesting or new emerges from any else's ramblings I'll add to it, but so far I haven't seen anything that indicates the complainers have grasped the meat of it. Hope springs eternal though.

[free_electron]

you keep hammering on 'the tile of engineer' which  brings us back to my earlier question:

is engineer a profession or a title ? the problem is the duality of usage for the word.

a) If you want to reserve it as a title. fine with me. but then come up with a new word for the profession.
b) If you want to reserve it for the profession ( read the definition of the verb 'to engineer' ) then you will have to come up with a different word for the title.

In my perception point B is the way to go. It is solved. We have titles as MSEE Master of Sciences in electronic engineering. BSEE Bachelors in Science Electronic engineering. there are equivalent titles for mechanical , chemical et al. these names have been used for a long time. universities in europe, us and asia deliver these titles.

That certificate says that you have a masters degree or a bachelors degree in the field of engineering. That degree is your Title. the degree is Master of Science in electronics, or BNachelo of science in electronics , or mechanics or whatever.

if you have an MSEE and pursue a JOB as engineer you can call yourself an engineer with an MSEE degree.
if you have an MSEE and pursue a job as janitor you can still say you have a Masters degree in electronics engineering, but you are NOT an engineer ! you are a janitor !
If i, not having an MSEE, pursue a job as engineer i can call myself an engineer. I can NOT claim i am an MSEE , as i don't have that degree.

if i perform the job of janitor i am a janitor
if i graduated magnum cum laude from with a janitorial degree from xyz university i can call myself a degreed janitor.

or we could solve it even a different way :

i am working AS an engineer : i perform a job in engineering
i am an engineer : i have  an official label :and perform a job in engineering
i am a janitor but i have an engineer degree. (makes me wonder why you are mucking out toilets)

works for me. just tell me what i write on my business card so it is clear to other people what my JOB is. my business card does not hold my titles. it holds my FUNCTION in the company.
That function is Senior Staff Engineer.  am I an engineer (label) ? no. Do i function as one ? yes.

There is another caveat : most countries have a provision in law (and this is recognized by universities) that says a person with x years of experience in a field is equivalent to a formal degree in the same field. For example : every 3 years in a field counts towards 1 year of formal education in that field. Given my 20 years of active duty in the field of semiconductor electronics ... i'm way beyond an MSEE .. i would be an MSEE with 8 years of experience. (according to LAW, which is another can of worms) so legally i can call myself MSEE. Would i do that ? no. Hasn't even crossed my mind. why ? if tell a prospective employer i got 20 years experience under the belt in semiconductors electronics, that is far more atractive as saying i'm an msee with 8 years experience...

And then there is another point : the value your employer assigns to you. ain;t no employer going to pay top dollar for an  engineer that produces nothing. On the other hand he will pay top dollar
for a guy that gets the job done , on time, within budget , and brings in oodles of cash for the company. You can keep your title. i'll take the cash any day. I'd rather be a title-less millionaire than a homeless-starved-near-death engineer. we'll make sure to write it on your headstone. 'He was an engineer'

now, as for the analogy with doctors and nurses : those are professions where a degree in that discipline has been made MANDATORY in order to perform the job.
If you want to make having an MSEE or BSEE mandatory to perform the job ... that is a whole different can of worms.

this discussion is about reserving the 'label' ENGINEER for degreed people , it is not about mandating only' appropriately labeled' people would be allowd to do the job.

[xrunner]

you keep hammering on 'the tile of engineer' which  brings us back to my earlier question:

is engineer a profession or a title ?

Although I disagree with your analogies, I would like to approach this in another direction. I think you are a person that I can work with, although in the end we may not agree.

I have some ideas that I think can clear up this problem, at least for the silent readers.

Let me sleep on it and tomorrow I will make a new post and we'll see what direction it takes us in this debate.

Cheers. 

[free_electron]

i'm all open for discussion.

final word of wisom for the day:
if it walks like a duck , quacks like a duck, looks like a duck and lays eggs like a duck... i don't need to pin the label 'duck' on it to know it's a duck...

[GeoffS]

Let's keep this discussion on track shall we and leave personal attacks out of it.

[IntegratedValve]

Just because you can make cool circuits and get paid for it doesn't make you an engineer. You are a talented circuit designer, but not an engineer.

Then a person who makes software cannot be called a programmer unless he has a degree? He's a poser? joker? what?

Someone with BS EE works as a sales representative.

Q What do you do?
A Sales person at XXXYYYZZZ comapny

Q What did you study? Marketing?
A No actually I've BS EE degree.

Another one with BS math works as a circuit designer at Tektronix.

Q What do you do?
A EE at Tektronix.

Q What did you study? Electronics Engineering?
A No, mathematics.

Got it???

[8086]

Just because you can make cool circuits and get paid for it doesn't make you an engineer. You are a talented circuit designer, but not an engineer.

[c4757p]

engineer, n. person who has scientific training and who designs and builds complicated products, machines, systems, or structures : a person who specializes in a branch of engineering

So the key here is what qualifies as "scientific training". Let's see...

training, n. : a process by which someone is taught the skills that are needed for an art, profession, or job

No mention of academic institutions or degrees, just being taught.

That's what Merriam-Webster has to say on this topic. Other dictionaries are similar. Do you agree with them? As for myself.... *fart*