Pi "foundation" gets fatter

[james_s]

Where do you want me to send the consultancy invoice? 

You're the one trying to sell me on an alternate platform(s), that's up to you. I'm content to just keep buying RPis, they're cheap, easy to get, and I already know they will work for me. If I can get something that is comparable but cheaper, or approximately the same price with some tangible improvement like lower power consumption, smaller size or more features I'm open to ideas.

[Wolfgang]

I've stated my reasons clearly. I don't think I need to go over them again. Your argument with support is flawed because they delete the negative scenarios.

But you're still missing the point.

Start with the application requirements and work back to the device.

Not start with the specification which doesn't matter initially when you start a project of any kind. I don't give a bananas what the Pi does on paper, only if it fits the requirements for the project compared to other devices.

Hell the last embedded thing I worked on an AVR was sufficient and the AVR-gcc toolchain is a lot less of a pain in the ass than even bootstrapping an STM32. But I've seen someone ram a raspberry pi in the same requirements hole and run 8 lines of python on it at the cost of a 100x fold in complexity and power requirements

It's popular because it's cheap. It's not. The cost comes later.

I think that the approach "Now I got a new toy, what can I do with it" is common in prototyping and experimentation. For "serious" product design, its normally not a good idea. You start from what you need.

For a lot of use cases, the Raspi offers a lot more than the problem needs. Controlling your garage door with a multiuser, multitasking operating system is not only silly, but also less reliable than a more primitive but adequate solution. With the Raspis, the problem is always to switch off the thousend features you *dont* want and that could possibly interfere with your real world problem (SD card wear, restart problems, timing issues, ...). When an Arduino is prefect for the job, I would always prefer this to an OS based machine.

On the other hand, when the problem to be solved involves user interfaces, graphics, multitasking, ... an Raspi is certainly an option. Only one thing: Never try this for high-reliability apps. For cheap fun gear or prototypes - no problem. But keep it out of avionics, space, mil, power stations, autonomous driving and medicine.

For making a product, a clear perspective of hardware availability and supply is also important. What you would want is fully documented (preferable open source)hardware that is supported for foreseeable periods and that has a
supplier that never runs out of stock. For certain Raspis, this never came true.

[PlainName]

There's a metric shit ton of them NOS

There are a lot of second hand ones on Ebay, of varying spec. That's quite a bit different to brand new with a known price and a specific spec to order.

[EEVblog]

I hope they succeed. The more consumer facing Linux centric hardware there is, the better.

They’re fools. They need to hand the reigns over to someone competent, or just dump the whole thing.

Why do you care? They are meeting a market niche and succeeding at it.

[EEVblog]

Really the Pi sits in a grey area between embedded and proper computers. It’s better to push the problem to either side than take on the compromises it forces upon you.

Who is being "forced"?
There are countless companies and SBC's that are more professional, more open, cheaper, *insert your requirement here*. Always has been, always will be, why the hate for them to exist in their niche?

[eti]

Really the Pi sits in a grey area between embedded and proper computers. It’s better to push the problem to either side than take on the compromises it forces upon you.

Who is being "forced"?
There are countless companies and SBC's that are more professional, more open, cheaper, *insert your requirement here*. Always has been, always will be, why the hate for them to exist in their niche?

Because they are APPALLING in attitude, and when you weigh that up with the fact that they sell TOYS, it comes across as a bad taste. One does not simply and foolishly IGNORE the spirit of a company, merely because they hold what one desires - supporting a company with a crappy attitude is a bad move - one cannot simply whitewash over it.

[eti]

I hope they succeed. The more consumer facing Linux centric hardware there is, the better.

They’re fools. They need to hand the reigns over to someone competent, or just dump the whole thing.

Why do you care? They are meeting a market niche and succeeding at it.

I was sent a Pi 400 review unit, and has SUCH a terrible time with moronic, hyper-sensitive "moderators" at their childish forum, I unplugged the piece of junk and just wanna snap it over my knee and bin it, seriously, what schmucks. They're as good at moderating and accepting critcism as they are at designing hardware. They are a sham front for Broadcom.

[Wolfgang]

I hope they succeed. The more consumer facing Linux centric hardware there is, the better.

They’re fools. They need to hand the reigns over to someone competent, or just dump the whole thing.

Why do you care? They are meeting a market niche and succeeding at it.

I was sent a Pi 400 review unit, and has SUCH a terrible time with moronic, hyper-sensitive "moderators" at their childish forum, I unplugged the piece of junk and just wanna snap it over my knee and bin it, seriously, what schmucks. They're as good at moderating and accepting critcism as they are at designing hardware. They are a sham front for Broadcom.

The lesson is to stay away from "fanboys" of any kind. Another good example was the Microchip vs Atmel wars (before Microchip bought them up, now its quiet).

What I try to do is choose components base on how useful they are for my purposes. Any extra emotion is  a waste.
If some people start a religious attitude about their brand, product, philosophy, ... whatever, let them. Its just a marketing issue.

If Raspi creates fun and gets out some people from computer illiteracy, let them. You can still use other parts for serious purposes.

[Just_another_Dave]

I hope they succeed. The more consumer facing Linux centric hardware there is, the better.

They’re fools. They need to hand the reigns over to someone competent, or just dump the whole thing.

Why do you care? They are meeting a market niche and succeeding at it.

I was sent a Pi 400 review unit, and has SUCH a terrible time with moronic, hyper-sensitive "moderators" at their childish forum, I unplugged the piece of junk and just wanna snap it over my knee and bin it, seriously, what schmucks. They're as good at moderating and accepting critcism as they are at designing hardware. They are a sham front for Broadcom.

The lesson is to stay away from "fanboys" of any kind. Another good example was the Microchip vs Atmel wars (before Microchip bought them up, now its quiet).

What I try to do is choose components base on how useful they are for my purposes. Any extra emotion is  a waste.
If some people start a religious attitude about their brand, product, philosophy, ... whatever, let them. Its just a marketing issue.

If Raspi creates fun and gets out some people from computer illiteracy, let them. You can still use other parts for serious purposes.

In my experience, old raspberries might be useful while testing PCBs that need to be connected to a pc, especially if you didn’t design them. I prefer burning an USB port of a cheap second handed raspi (or any other cheap pc) than the one of my workstation. Additionally, being small is a great advantage for placing it near the prototypes

[bingo600]

One thing that i'm happy with, after the RasPI was released , is pricing. ... And power usage for a little linux running

I remember the "Small" Linux dev-board prices before the RasPI ... Was easily $250+.

That has changed, and many more has begun to develop in that area,
Ie. Odroid and OrangePi, that i also like a lot.

I bought 20 x Raspi3 for £250 , and have a few in use ... A good deal from this forum ... 

I have had a Raspi3 in prod. as a backup DNS & DHCP server for 5 years , and it was just last rear i had to change the SD card (after a power failure).
So if you're not buying cheap SD cards, i'd say they are well behaved.
I ONLY use SanDisk Ultra or Extreme.


While i'm not impressed with some of the "Foundation" mgmt decisions or statements.
They have IMHO changed the world.

/Bingo

[EEVblog]

Really the Pi sits in a grey area between embedded and proper computers. It’s better to push the problem to either side than take on the compromises it forces upon you.

Who is being "forced"?
There are countless companies and SBC's that are more professional, more open, cheaper, *insert your requirement here*. Always has been, always will be, why the hate for them to exist in their niche?

Because they are APPALLING in attitude, and when you weigh that up with the fact that they sell TOYS, it comes across as a bad taste. One does not simply and foolishly IGNORE the spirit of a company, merely because they hold what one desires - supporting a company with a crappy attitude is a bad move - one cannot simply whitewash over it.

Again, who is forcing you to care about them?
If you don't like them just don't buy or use their stuff.
Others are free to buy and like their stuff if it suits their needs. Majority of users probably never interact at all with the company, they just buy the board and it does the job they need, end of story.

[EEVblog]

I hope they succeed. The more consumer facing Linux centric hardware there is, the better.

They’re fools. They need to hand the reigns over to someone competent, or just dump the whole thing.

Why do you care? They are meeting a market niche and succeeding at it.

I was sent a Pi 400 review unit, and has SUCH a terrible time with moronic, hyper-sensitive "moderators" at their childish forum, I unplugged the piece of junk and just wanna snap it over my knee and bin it, seriously, what schmucks. They're as good at moderating and accepting critcism as they are at designing hardware. They are a sham front for Broadcom.

Sorry, but you are sounding just as hyper sensitive as you are claiming they are.

[tom66]

They’re fools. They need to hand the reigns over to someone competent, or just dump the whole thing.

Yes, fools who've sold 40 million+ SBCs and completely revolutionised the industry, leading to countless "me too" single-board computers.

I remember before the Pi a typical ARM system on board like the Pi would cost hundreds, have buggy drivers and limited support and be twice the size.

They are clearly clueless idiots, not an idea.

[eti]

They’re fools. They need to hand the reigns over to someone competent, or just dump the whole thing.

Yes, fools who've sold 40 million+ SBCs and completely revolutionised the industry, leading to countless "me too" single-board computers.

I remember before the Pi a typical ARM system on board like the Pi would cost hundreds, have buggy drivers and limited support and be twice the size.

They are clearly clueless idiots, not an idea.

🚨🚨 Hyperbole alert! "Revolutionised" detected 😁

[tom66]

🚨🚨 Hyperbole alert! "Revolutionised" detected 😁

I stand by my statement.  They revolutionised the SBC industry. 

[Doctorandus_P]

I have never bought, and will not buy a raspi.
I dislike their marketing hype and lack of openness and their broadcom connections, which is a company very hostile to hobbyists and tinkerers.

And what does the Raspi offerer that the others don't?

If I compare it with for example Olimex. Olimex has full schematics and PCB layout made available via git repositories. It will be tough if you think you can make the olinuxino's for a lower price then they do themselves, but having the complete KiCad projects available has a great educational value for PCB design,and it is a good start and timesaver if you want to extend such a board with added custom hardware.

Olimex also sells the microprocessors and other parts for custom boards. Now go try to buy a handfull of processors used on the raspi boards.

Hardkernel is another manufacturer of small Linux boards, and they make and sell a lot of different variants with Exynoss, AMLOGIC and RockChip processors.

Friendlyarm has been manufacturing linux capable PCB's from before Raspi existed. The early beaglebones were also already there. But those were marketed at mostly industrial applications and as a test bed as pre-cursor for industrial applications.

So the only "new" thing that raspi brought to the market was a price cut, at the price of vendor lock-in, smoothed over by deceiving marketing tactics. Their first promise was a GBP25 computer (Or was it GBP20?), upon which they never delivered, but it started the hype and blind followers that are now apparently not even able to see the other boards on the market. Maybe they sold a handful of products at their promised price, but with so small memory that it could hardly run any program. It was also timed "just right" Processors had been getting more powerful and prices were ever falling, and even if raspi would never have existed, there would be a similar product for a similar price one or two years later.

Another thing I don't like about raspi is the way they further tempt customers by placing drm in the camera's they sell, so they don't work with other hardware.

Yet another reason why I don't like raspi much is because they held on to a 32 bit OS when the whole world was shifting to 64 bit. That must have resulted in countless hours of time wasted for developers in compatibility for both versions.

A lot of the other manufacturers also have on-board eMMC (or on a breakout board with a connector), while the raspi requires an additional uSD card which is not factored into the price, and this makes the price difference also less. Add to that the improved reliability and speed of eMMC and you start wondering why uSD is even used as a primary storage device for an OS.

The article linked to from the first post hints at more raspi's being used in industrial applications, while their products are probably not suitable for that. Things like extended temperature range for chips, underfill and conformal coatings to make PCB more reliable for industrial applications do cost a bit extra. Using an uSD for the OS in an industrial application? Really?

"healthy competition" should be the foundation of a free market but at the same time it's what manufacturers are afraid of, and most manurefacturers try to thwart this by building senseless walls which are only an annoying hindrance to consumers, and they don't even realize this.

[Bud]

I agree with  others's opinion that Pi was/is a solution looking for a problem.

[SiliconWizard]

I agree with  others's opinion that Pi was/is a solution looking for a problem.

Maybe, or maybe not.
But comparing RPi with other vendors makings SBCs - sure there are some that are objectively "better" than the RPi. Very few are better documented though - not that the RPi itself is well documented, but most others are not better in that regard. But anyway, they just all followed RPi. Before RPi, there just wasn't any small and cheap SBC. Small SBCs were mostly industrial stuff, pretty expensive and absolutely not hobbyist-friendly. So they at least created a market here. Following is always easier than creating a new market.

[Wolfgang]

I agree with  others's opinion that Pi was/is a solution looking for a problem.

Maybe, or maybe not.
But comparing RPi with other vendors makings SBCs - sure there are some that are objectively "better" than the RPi. Very few are better documented though - not that the RPi itself is well documented, but most others are not better in that regard. But anyway, they just all followed RPi. Before RPi, there just wasn't any small and cheap SBC. Small SBCs were mostly industrial stuff, pretty expensive and absolutely not hobbyist-friendly. So they at least created a market here. Following is always easier than creating a new market.

Its always the same misunderstanding: Mistake a fun and educational tool for a stable industrial solution. Raspi was never meant for that, and (to what I know) they never claimed to be suited for "serious" apps with reliability constraints. It a cheap toy with a very competitive price - nothing wrong with that. The problem are people who want to pay Raspi prices and get industrial strength stuff.

[Just_another_Dave]

I agree with  others's opinion that Pi was/is a solution looking for a problem.

Maybe, or maybe not.
But comparing RPi with other vendors makings SBCs - sure there are some that are objectively "better" than the RPi. Very few are better documented though - not that the RPi itself is well documented, but most others are not better in that regard. But anyway, they just all followed RPi. Before RPi, there just wasn't any small and cheap SBC. Small SBCs were mostly industrial stuff, pretty expensive and absolutely not hobbyist-friendly. So they at least created a market here. Following is always easier than creating a new market.

Its always the same misunderstanding: Mistake a fun and educational tool for a stable industrial solution. Raspi was never meant for that, and (to what I know) they never claimed to be suited for "serious" apps with reliability constraints. It a cheap toy with a very competitive price - nothing wrong with that. The problem are people who want to pay Raspi prices and get industrial strength stuff.

For educational purposes I think it is a good platform for introducing young students to Linux and computer programming. Raspbian might not be the most polished distro, but if you make a huge mess rewriting an SD card is quite fast. That makes it a good platform for schools as it is relatively easy to maintain (when I was at school half of the available computers never worked because of terrible mess-ups involving erased operating system files in windows)

[AntiProtonBoy]

Got to be honest here this is a stupid comment.

There are literally skip fulls of consumer centric Linux hardware everywhere. Every damn computer shop is full of it. Gumtree, ebay, garages eveywhere. Computers are ubiquitous junk these days and Linux mostly works on all them them 100% better than it does on some low ball POS ARM board.

If they cared about access to computing they would be selling recycled guaranteed PCs with an easy to use Linux distribution. No they are selling BCM SoCs stuffed on the lowest part count board they could get away with and Liz is drinking a lot of wine.

Righto, but how often do you see "linux running on junk" promoted in the mainstream media? Never. The detail you actually miss here is marketing and exposure. If you care about promoting alternative an OS for people to experiment with (like I do), offering a shiny, compact product like a Pi is infinitely more appealing than getting people to bin dive for a filthy beige PC, and then convince them spending countless of frustrating hours trying to find and install a suitable distro on an obsolete system with a buggy BIOS.

I'm 100% on board with any scheme that encourages people off proprietary operating systems and onto open source platforms and hardware. And if there is a profitable way to do that for a company THAT'S EVEN BETTER! System founded on open source principles and actually makes money... think about it... it's literally the best of both worlds.

low ball POS ARM board

Absolute nonsense. It's an awesome low power device. I use a single Pi as a server, which runs Docker with containers such as Apache, PiHole, Deluge + WireGuard, Samba,  Grafana, Prometheus, etc. It doesn't even break a sweat, and is great for saving on electricity because of its awesome performance/watt characteristics.

[EEVblog]

I have never bought, and will not buy a raspi.
I dislike their marketing hype and lack of openness and their broadcom connections, which is a company very hostile to hobbyists and tinkerers.

Are people forgetting that the RPi was designed for the educational market by a charity organisation?
It was never meant to be an industrial or hobbyist SBC.

[SiliconWizard]

I agree with  others's opinion that Pi was/is a solution looking for a problem.

Maybe, or maybe not.
But comparing RPi with other vendors makings SBCs - sure there are some that are objectively "better" than the RPi. Very few are better documented though - not that the RPi itself is well documented, but most others are not better in that regard. But anyway, they just all followed RPi. Before RPi, there just wasn't any small and cheap SBC. Small SBCs were mostly industrial stuff, pretty expensive and absolutely not hobbyist-friendly. So they at least created a market here. Following is always easier than creating a new market.

Its always the same misunderstanding: Mistake a fun and educational tool for a stable industrial solution.

Who said such a thing?

[djacobow]

I started a technical thread on their forum regarding the power issues and SD reliability issues early on in their product cycle. I kept it nice suggesting fixes. This was met with denial and questioning my credentials.   I suggested that I would not use their products in future because of these problems. After a couple of days all my posts were deleted and my account on the forum deleted. I continue not to use these products because they are denialists and censor criticism and technical issues. I have seen several people reporting this.

That’s reason enough to be bitter and explicitly warn people away from their products.

I have other reasons as well related to the relationship between Cambridge university, the raspberry pi foundation and Broadcom as well which is a corrupt little circle of hell. (Have also had to deal with BCM professionally before).  There is a lot of preferential treatment and cronyism in the group. First and second hand experience there for ref.

Also it’s STB junk. I need reliable storage for any computers and SD cards or USB mass storage is not it. Minimum SATA or NVMe.

I've used various RPi's since the beginning in all manner of projects, and I even sell some RPi "shields". I generally like the platform for anything with network + io twiddling, but bd139 is absolutely right about storage and reliability. The platform has been just atrocious for eating sdcards. For personal use, that alone has driven me off the platform.

[AntiProtonBoy]

bd139 is absolutely right about storage and reliability. The platform has been just atrocious for eating sdcards. For personal use, that alone has driven me off the platform.

Regarding the SD card problem, well, the issue predominantly lies with the actual SD card in the first place. Most of them are just trash, have no wear levering and are not designed for the purpose of hosting an OS environment. So your mileage will vary depending on how much you cheaped out on your storage. Invest in a better SD card, you get better performance and lifetime.

I always choose cards from SanDisk High Endurance product line, as they are designed for lots of write operations like dashcam usage. I had a 32 GB SD card in a Pi torrent server/seeder, which was running 24/7 for at least 2 years now, and had no issues with reliability. I recently upgraded it to 256 GB.