Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.

[YurkshireLad]

It's not going to be pretty, but quite obviously the current fossil thing isn't pretty either - when the temperature hits -30degC, there is epidemic of diesel vehicles dying and needing a tow, so 

I don't think that's ever been the case? Those living in cold conditions would be using diesel specific to those conditions. Diesel used in Scandinavian countries work far colder than -30 C.

In Australia, "winter diesel" is sold around Canberra and the alpine regions for this very reason.

I don't know if winter specific additives are added to diesel here in Canada. I certainly don't see the roads lined with abandoned diesel powered vehicles, or lines of tow trucks pulling them. 

[Dan123456]

It's hilarious when the anti-EV conspiricy nutters claim that EVs are about "them" controlling you, when ICE cars are 100% dependent on fuel supply, whereas there will always be electricity, ultimately from your own wind/solar if you want complete independence.

I did a poll last week:

Interesting results Dave! Thanks for sharing 

Although I have a feeling they might be a little skewed towards EVs due to your followers being interested / in the EEV space so would guess they might be more likely to give an EV a fair shake compared to your average Joe

That said, I am kinda surprised that the EV number isn’t actually higher in that specific situation since that is a car + constant fuel option vs car with possibly no fuel option in a SHTF situation!

I mean I don’t even particularly like EV’s but I would absolutely take that option unless the situation required me getting far, far away as quickly as possible (say like a nuke was gonna hit home and I had to be 500km away in 6 hours or something really specific like that)!

[tom66]

In terms of get out quickly:
- ICE can probably go further in a mad panic, but
- EV is more sustainable for an itinerant lifestyle (off-the-grid).

In apocalypse films/shows, some 20-30 years after a disaster happens, it's usually shown that the 'travellers' are surviving on scavenged fuel from abandoned cars.  I'd wonder whether solar+EV would be more sustainable.  Surely at a certain point that scavenged fuel is no good at all.  Though I suppose solar panels don't last forever, either.

[Dan123456]

In terms of get out quickly:
- ICE can probably go further in a mad panic, but
- EV is more sustainable for an itinerant lifestyle (off-the-grid).

In apocalypse films/shows, some 20-30 years after a disaster happens, it's usually shown that the 'travellers' are surviving on scavenged fuel from abandoned cars.  I'd wonder whether solar+EV would be more sustainable.  Surely at a certain point that scavenged fuel is no good at all.  Though I suppose solar panels don't last forever, either.

I reckon ICE would be better long, long term as you can scavenge different flammable solvents from everywhere or even just grow corn and make your own ethanol fuel forever  Cars will run on a lot more than just petrol, especially if it is an old carbureted engine

Plus this means you can use your solar panels to power your home rather than needing to share the energy across both 

That said, if we are only talking up to 5-10 years before all is back to normal, I’d take the EV personally and then try go scavenge some additional solar panels for my home / would just have to deal with sharing the panel with the car

[nctnico]

- EV is more sustainable for an itinerant lifestyle (off-the-grid).

No. Gasoline cars can run on ethanol which you can make from plants. Same for diesel. For electricity you need some form of generation and batteries. Neither last decades. Keep in mind that there are people driving around in model-T Fords which are over 100 years old. Also, you can't store electricity very long but liquid fuel can be stored much longer so you can drive all year long with an ICE car in case you are living in an area with large seasonal changes in the weather.

[tom66]

- EV is more sustainable for an itinerant lifestyle (off-the-grid).

No. Gasoline cars can run on ethanol which you can make from plants. Same for diesel. For electricity you need some form of generation and batteries. Neither last decades. Keep in mind that there are people driving around in model-T Fords which are over 100 years old. Also, you can't store electricity very long but liquid fuel can be stored much longer so you can drive all year long with an ICE car in case you are living in an area with large seasonal changes in the weather.

How large of a field of crops would you need to power one car?  I suspect a few solar panels is easier, you only need about 1kW to charge most EVs.  Also, not competing between your food and fuel demands is good.

The long term calendar aging of Li-ion batteries is a risk, agreed.

[tszaboo]

- EV is more sustainable for an itinerant lifestyle (off-the-grid).

No. Gasoline cars can run on ethanol which you can make from plants. Same for diesel. For electricity you need some form of generation and batteries. Neither last decades. Keep in mind that there are people driving around in model-T Fords which are over 100 years old. Also, you can't store electricity very long but liquid fuel can be stored much longer so you can drive all year long with an ICE car in case you are living in an area with large seasonal changes in the weather.

I'll take a horse. Think about Robert Merle: Malevil.

[themadhippy]

If the apocalypse involved  or caused a large electromagnetic pulse i wouldnt hold much hope of any ev,or any modern vehicle to  be much use.

[nctnico]

- EV is more sustainable for an itinerant lifestyle (off-the-grid).

No. Gasoline cars can run on ethanol which you can make from plants. Same for diesel. For electricity you need some form of generation and batteries. Neither last decades. Keep in mind that there are people driving around in model-T Fords which are over 100 years old. Also, you can't store electricity very long but liquid fuel can be stored much longer so you can drive all year long with an ICE car in case you are living in an area with large seasonal changes in the weather.

I'll take a horse. Think about Robert Merle: Malevil.

A horse or bycicle would make way more sense but the choice was between two cars.

How large of a field of crops would you need to power one car?

It depends on how much liquor you want to distill for your own consumption versus the amount of fuel for your car. And you don't need to grow crops specifically for fuel; that is a common misconception.  Every kind of plant can be fermented into alcohol / ethanol.

[mikeselectricstuff]

If the apocalypse involved  or caused a large electromagnetic pulse i wouldnt hold much hope of any ev,or any modern vehicle to  be much use.

The metal car body would provide quite a lot of protection. Especially if it was switched off at the time.

[Stray Electron]

IMHO needing to charge for debit / credit cars fees is a clear sign the business is not being run well. A healthy company shouldn't need to nickel & dime over these kinds of things.

  Clearly you don't live in the US! It's not about "need", it's about Profit.  Here, extra fees are a sign of a company that is doing well and and they can charge extras fees and make a fatter profit; and they can get away with it because they usually dominate their market.  Lesson 101 for a Harvard MBA.

[mikeselectricstuff]

How large of a field of crops would you need to power one car?  I suspect a few solar panels is easier, you only need about 1kW to charge most EVs.  Also, not competing between your food and fuel demands is good.

Many EVs will charge down to about 100V, so with the minimum J1772 rate of 6A it could be as low as 600W, though effificency likely poor due to baseline draw of whatever car systems are  powerd on during charging.
Of course at a pinch you could feed directly into the HV battery to charge at lower rates....

[Stray Electron]

If the apocalypse involved  or caused a large electromagnetic pulse i wouldnt hold much hope of any ev,or any modern vehicle to  be much use.

   If you're concerned about SHTF scenarios then get a Deuce and a Half. That's a 2 1/2 ton (off road cargo capacity) US military truck to some of you. They're diesel but will run on any liquid that will vaporize and burn and they use a mechanical fuel pump so they will run without a battery and they can be push started.  They do have glow plugs but they're generally not required for starting.  They are designed from the beginning to be a multi-fuel vehicle that can be started and operated without a battery and their are NO computers or other solid state electronics in them. Also keep in mind that jet fuel, diesel fuel, vegetable oil use motor oil, and used transmission fluid will all store longer than gasoline and the Deuce and a Half will run very well on any of them. And it might also be helpful that these have three axles and are six-wheel drive!  And, with a snorkel kit, they can operated completely underwater!

  But MPG is not their strong suit!

[AVGresponding]

If the apocalypse involved  or caused a large electromagnetic pulse i wouldnt hold much hope of any ev,or any modern vehicle to  be much use.

The metal car body would provide quite a lot of protection. Especially if it was switched off at the time.

Quite a lot of plastic panels on modern cars, especially EVs, to save weight...

[vad]

I suspect a few solar panels is easier, you only need about 1kW to charge most EVs.  Also, not competing between your food and fuel demands is good.

I am not an expert on solar, but according to a Forbes article a 1 kW solar system produces 750-850 kWh annually for average installation in North America. So charging Tesla Model 3 from 20% to 80% would take a whopping 2-3 weeks on average depending on battery option.

[David Hess]

I suspect a few solar panels is easier, you only need about 1kW to charge most EVs.  Also, not competing between your food and fuel demands is good.

I am not an expert on solar, but according to a Forbes article a 1 kW solar system produces 750-850 kWh annually for average installation in North America. So charging Tesla Model 3 from 20% to 80% would take a whopping 2-3 weeks on average depending on battery option.

1kW is the lowest common denominator because the common North America 120VAC 15A circuit provides a little more than that; typically 1.2kW without power factor correction.  Dedicated home chargers are more like 240VAC at 30A providing up to 7.2kW so could fully charge a Tesla battery overnight.

Few solar installations are limited to 1kW.

[vad]

I suspect a few solar panels is easier, you only need about 1kW to charge most EVs.  Also, not competing between your food and fuel demands is good.

I am not an expert on solar, but according to a Forbes article a 1 kW solar system produces 750-850 kWh annually for average installation in North America. So charging Tesla Model 3 from 20% to 80% would take a whopping 2-3 weeks on average depending on battery option.

1kW is the lowest common denominator because the common North America 120VAC 15A circuit provides a little more than that; typically 1.2kW without power factor correction.  Dedicated home chargers are more like 240VAC at 30A providing up to 7.2kW so could fully charge a Tesla battery overnight.

Few solar installations are limited to 1kW.

According to the National Electrical Code, a 240V, 30A receptacle can only sustain a continuous draw of 5,760W. Charging overnight qualifies as a continuous load. However, the main point is that a 1 kW supply from the grid is impractical for charging a typical EV at home, and 1 kW solar is ridiculously low for this purpose.

[nctnico]

How large of a field of crops would you need to power one car?  I suspect a few solar panels is easier, you only need about 1kW to charge most EVs.  Also, not competing between your food and fuel demands is good.

Many EVs will charge down to about 100V, so with the minimum J1772 rate of 6A it could be as low as 600W, though effificency likely poor due to baseline draw of whatever car systems are  powerd on during charging.

Efficiency is also a point. The German ADAC tested charging efficiency for BEVs from a 230V 16A outlet and measured losses up to 30%.

[PlainName]

If the apocalypse involved  or caused a large electromagnetic pulse i wouldnt hold much hope of any ev,or any modern vehicle to  be much use.

The metal car body would provide quite a lot of protection. Especially if it was switched off at the time.

It's steel. You need tinfoil for proper protection.

[Dan123456]

- EV is more sustainable for an itinerant lifestyle (off-the-grid).

No. Gasoline cars can run on ethanol which you can make from plants. Same for diesel. For electricity you need some form of generation and batteries. Neither last decades. Keep in mind that there are people driving around in model-T Fords which are over 100 years old. Also, you can't store electricity very long but liquid fuel can be stored much longer so you can drive all year long with an ICE car in case you are living in an area with large seasonal changes in the weather.

How large of a field of crops would you need to power one car?  I suspect a few solar panels is easier, you only need about 1kW to charge most EVs.  Also, not competing between your food and fuel demands is good.

The long term calendar aging of Li-ion batteries is a risk, agreed.

Surprisingly, the field wouldn’t need to be that big! 

“Through research performed at Cornell University, we know that 1 acre of land can yield about 7,110 pounds (3,225 kg) of corn, which can be processed into 328 gallons (1240.61 liters) of ethanol. That is about 26.1 pounds (11.84 kg) of corn per gallon.”

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/alternative-fuels/question707.htm

[nctnico]

1 acre is less than the surface of a soccer field. However, this number likely assumes professional farming using high grade fertilizer and high grade seeds.

[Monkeh]

- EV is more sustainable for an itinerant lifestyle (off-the-grid).

No. Gasoline cars can run on ethanol which you can make from plants. Same for diesel. For electricity you need some form of generation and batteries. Neither last decades. Keep in mind that there are people driving around in model-T Fords which are over 100 years old. Also, you can't store electricity very long but liquid fuel can be stored much longer so you can drive all year long with an ICE car in case you are living in an area with large seasonal changes in the weather.

How large of a field of crops would you need to power one car?  I suspect a few solar panels is easier, you only need about 1kW to charge most EVs.  Also, not competing between your food and fuel demands is good.

The long term calendar aging of Li-ion batteries is a risk, agreed.

Surprisingly, the field wouldn’t need to be that big! 

“Through research performed at Cornell University, we know that 1 acre of land can yield about 7,110 pounds (3,225 kg) of corn, which can be processed into 328 gallons (1240.61 liters) of ethanol. That is about 26.1 pounds (11.84 kg) of corn per gallon.”

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/alternative-fuels/question707.htm

And if your engine doesn't return the sort of fuel economy expected from a 1970s truck (I'm looking at you, America), that's quite a lot of fuel.

[tom66]

Efficiency is also a point. The German ADAC tested charging efficiency for BEVs from a 230V 16A outlet and measured losses up to 30%.

Do you have a link to that report?  1.1kW of losses is crazy high for a 3.6kW charger.  I measured the loss on my ID.3 at around 350W for a 7.2kW input.  I expect it is probably around 200-250W for a 3.6kW input. Most of it is expended on running battery pumps, contactors, computers, fans etc.  If the battery heater has to run that's another matter but typically not needed unless well below -10C.

[Dan123456]

1 acre is less than the surface of a soccer field. However, this number likely assumes professional farming using high grade fertilizer and high grade seeds.

Absolutely agree, my point is the bottom part (~12kg of corn per gallon of fuel) but wanted to keep the whole quote for completeness 

If I’m in a SHTF situation, I probably only need maybe 20-30 gallons of fuel for my car a year if my house is running off solar  I’d hardly be road tripping the wastelands 

Also, again this is in the 20+ year situation where solar panels would have 30+ years of degradation on them 

In a short term scenario, I would take the EV 

[m98]

If the apocalypse involved  or caused a large electromagnetic pulse i wouldnt hold much hope of any ev,or any modern vehicle to  be much use.

I wouldn't know where to drive during or after an apocalypse. Realistically, you would get stuck in a giant traffic jam, awaiting anything that happens trapped in your car on a road in the wide, open landscape. Where I live, the escape plan would probably be to grab a knife, a solid pair of boots and . But why are some people making everyday decisions in fear or hope of ending up in Mad-Max?