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Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.

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Siwastaja:

--- Quote from: nctnico on January 18, 2024, 12:12:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on January 17, 2024, 11:49:22 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on January 17, 2024, 08:20:45 pm ---Efficiency is also a point. The German ADAC tested charging efficiency for BEVs from a 230V 16A outlet and measured losses up to 30%.

--- End quote ---

Do you have a link to that report?  1.1kW of losses is crazy high for a 3.6kW charger.  I measured the loss on my ID.3 at around 350W for a 7.2kW input.  I expect it is probably around 200-250W for a 3.6kW input. Most of it is expended on running battery pumps, contactors, computers, fans etc.  If the battery heater has to run that's another matter but typically not needed unless well below -10C.

--- End quote ---
You can Google 'Adac charging losses'

--- End quote ---

Googled it. "Household socket" loss varied between 10 and 30 percent depending on the vehicle and conditions. So it's a little bit misleading to pick the worst-case number, but you did say "up to", so oh well.

It's not unsurprising Renault Zoe did worst at low power, because it has the most powerful AC charger so design is not optimized for lowest currents.

tom66:

--- Quote from: nctnico on January 18, 2024, 12:12:38 pm ---You can Google 'Adac charging losses'

--- End quote ---

Right, so the 30% figure seems to come from the Renault Zoe when charging off a "granny charger", which is well known to be inefficient at low current charging because of its "Chameleon" architecture, using the electric motor as part of the charging circuit.  This allows the car to charge at up to 43kW (older models) or 22kW (newer models) for rapid AC charging en-route.  It didn't end up being a successful method, with most car manufacturers standardising on DC CCS charging, including the new Zoe (which just has a standard 7kW charger now), but there are plenty of these cars around.

https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/laden/ladeverluste-elektroauto-studie/#laden-daheim-so-hat-der-adac-gemessen

Whereas other EVs charging on 11kW (3 phase for EU) achieve efficiency typically greater than 90% and even when using a granny charger, efficiency of 85% is common.

While there are no doubt users of Zoe's still charging off granny chargers, to take a single model and apply its losses to all vehicles with the statement of "losses up to 30%" is grossly misleading, IMO.

Ice-Tea:

--- Quote from: vad on January 17, 2024, 07:37:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on January 17, 2024, 04:36:44 pm ---I suspect a few solar panels is easier, you only need about 1kW to charge most EVs.  Also, not competing between your food and fuel demands is good.

--- End quote ---
I am not an expert on solar, but according to a Forbes article a 1 kW solar system produces 750-850 kWh annually for average installation in North America. So charging Tesla Model 3 from 20% to 80% would take a whopping 2-3 weeks on average depending on battery option.

--- End quote ---

Luckily cornfields grow overnight!

Also: I have about 13kWp on my roof.

nctnico:

--- Quote from: tom66 on January 18, 2024, 12:27:23 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on January 18, 2024, 12:12:38 pm ---You can Google 'Adac charging losses'

--- End quote ---

Right, so the 30% figure seems to come from the Renault Zoe when charging off a "granny charger", which is well known to be inefficient at low current charging because of its "Chameleon" architecture, using the electric motor as part of the charging circuit.  This allows the car to charge at up to 43kW (older models) or 22kW (newer models) for rapid AC charging en-route.  It didn't end up being a successful method, with most car manufacturers standardising on DC CCS charging, including the new Zoe (which just has a standard 7kW charger now), but there are plenty of these cars around.

https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/elektromobilitaet/laden/ladeverluste-elektroauto-studie/#laden-daheim-so-hat-der-adac-gemessen

Whereas other EVs charging on 11kW (3 phase for EU) achieve efficiency typically greater than 90% and even when using a granny charger, efficiency of 85% is common.

While there are no doubt users of Zoe's still charging off granny chargers, to take a single model and apply its losses to all vehicles with the statement of "losses up to 30%" is grossly misleading, IMO.

--- End quote ---
In the context of this discussion it is not. Scroll up a few posts and you'll see somebody coined a 1kW number for a solar panel system to charge an EV from.

nctnico:

--- Quote from: David Hess on January 18, 2024, 01:07:21 am ---
--- Quote from: m98 on January 18, 2024, 12:15:50 am ---I wouldn't know where to drive during or after an apocalypse. Realistically, you would get stuck in a giant traffic jam, awaiting anything that happens trapped in your car on a road in the wide, open landscape.

--- End quote ---
Back in the late 1990s, I sat in on emergency preparedness meetings in Orange County, California and always got a chuckle about that.  Any plan which relies on mass evacuation would never work because if the freeways were usable, then millions would be trying to use them.  The best option then becomes a vehicle with considerable off-road capability, like a motorcycle that can drive around traffic, but you are hardly going to evacuate your family on a motorcycle and they have a surprisingly short range between fueling.

--- End quote ---
The best thing is to seek shelter nearby or prepare your home to withstand whatever could come (or at least make sure it remains partly habitable). A long time ago I spoke to somebody in the Netherlands about mass evacuations because he was involved in planning crisis situations. In the NL there is a densely populated area with quite a few chemical plants. There is just no way to evacuate people from that area in case of trouble. So the advice is that when the alarm goes off (yes, we still have that!) to go inside, close doors / windows and shut the ventilation system off.

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