General > General Technical Chat
Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
Stray Electron:
--- Quote from: David Hess on January 17, 2024, 07:46:54 pm ---
--- Quote from: vad on January 17, 2024, 07:37:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on January 17, 2024, 04:36:44 pm ---I suspect a few solar panels is easier, you only need about 1kW to charge most EVs. Also, not competing between your food and fuel demands is good.
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I am not an expert on solar, but according to a Forbes article a 1 kW solar system produces 750-850 kWh annually for average installation in North America. So charging Tesla Model 3 from 20% to 80% would take a whopping 2-3 weeks on average depending on battery option.
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1kW is the lowest common denominator because the common North America 120VAC 15A circuit provides a little more than that; typically 1.2kW without power factor correction. Dedicated home chargers are more like 240VAC at 30A providing up to 7.2kW so could fully charge a Tesla battery overnight.
Few solar installations are limited to 1kW.
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About 99% of the home solar installations in Florida are 4kW systems, that's because that was where the big tax break and refund that was offered about 10 years ago stopped. So you're still looking at several days of charging for an electric car and that's only if your solar produced electricity isn't used for anything else. OTOH Floridians are luckier than people in most other parts of the US and Europe in that they get large amounts of sunshine most days of the year and pretty much year round. Having lived in New England and Canada I can tell you that during the winter, the days are SHORT and it's often heavily overcast for days/weeks on end. I think that there you could forget charging an electric car there at all during the winter and probably of good bit of of the spring and fall.
Before I would consider a solar system and an rechargeable electric car as a practical alternative, I would like to hear from anyone that lives in a northern climate and that has a home solar system and that uses it to recharge an electric car with no other electrical input, and see what their actual experience has been.
David Hess:
--- Quote from: nctnico on January 18, 2024, 02:58:23 pm ---Agreed. Humans have used dogs, donkey, oxes, horses, elephants, etc for transport for thousands of years. People will be fine without a car. Any kind of car probably needs more effort to keep going compared to the benefits. Just attach some leashes to the steering wheel and put some horses in front of a car. You'll get an auto-pilot on top of it if you take the same route every time. Horses aren't stupid and remember the routes.
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If things get that bad, then a lack of individual transportation will be the least of anyones worries. No number of draft animals will make up for lack of mechanized farming. Farm tractors produce *hundreds* of horsepower continuously to get their work done.
--- Quote from: nctnico on January 18, 2024, 01:02:12 pm ---The best thing is to seek shelter nearby or prepare your home to withstand whatever could come (or at least make sure it remains partly habitable). A long time ago I spoke to somebody in the Netherlands about mass evacuations because he was involved in planning crisis situations. In the NL there is a densely populated area with quite a few chemical plants. There is just no way to evacuate people from that area in case of trouble. So the advice is that when the alarm goes off (yes, we still have that!) to go inside, close doors / windows and shut the ventilation system off.
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These days they call that "shelter in place".
Orange County had an alarm in case the San Onofre nuclear power plant blew up. They could not be bothered to keep stocks of potassium iodine tablets because that would be "alarming", but they were happy to rely on unrealistic mass evacuations.
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on January 18, 2024, 01:44:23 pm ---But then again, when the nuclear winter hits then even that 10kWp doesn't produce much anything, and after 20 years the EV battery is dead anyway, just like most ICE cars and their spare parts, and if you have a working vehicle someone steals it from you, so we are back to horses anyway.
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I think an EV would be better over the medium term because you can have your own charging infrastructure, while almost nobody has the infrastructure to make their own gasoline and existing stocks will only last a couple years at most.
Diesel is an interesting option because some vegetable oils can be used, but then so are flex-fuel vehicles that can use pure alcohol.
Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: richard.cs on January 18, 2024, 03:05:56 pm ---The new Zoe still does 22 kW AC charging with a factory option for DC CCS but 43 kW is essentially dead in current production cars. I suspect unlike 43 kW charge points the 22 kW ones are here to stay - simply because there's a big mix of 7 kW (32 A single phase) and 11 kW (16 A 3 phase) cars around, so a 32 A 3 phase charger is the lowest common denominator that will charge both at full rate. That and AC chargers are comparatively cheap to install with costs that don't really scale with rating.
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The number of 22kW AC charging points is whopping, at least here they are much more frequently available than DC quick charging stations. Shopping malls, parking garages, etc.; while DC quick charging is focused on busy highways only.
We frequently make a 140km trip and because the kid sometimes needs a break midway we stop at such "highway hub" place, to see how all (eight) DC CCS fast charging spots are always in use and a line of Teslas etc. are forming to queue. Average charge rate, including the wait is definitely below 50kW. Then, there are two 22kW AC EVSEs there, which are also cheaper, but I have never seen anyone use them. I just plug the LEAF in and charge at 6kW. During half-an-hour stay, I don't get much charge (15km), but that brings up the question - what it the car charged at 22kW? That would be pretty decent, 55km in 30 minutes; not good for continuous "20%-to-60" roadtripping, but really fine for those occasions you need like 1.3 times the range your vehicle supports. Especially in winter, the speed difference between DC fast and AC charging disappears. If you are queuing 20 minutes to DC fast charging at -5kW (including cabing heating plus battery pre-heating) then charge at 50kW (limited by station-wide total power limit) for another 20 minutes, your effective rate ends up the same 22kW you could get from the 3-phase 32A AC EVSE, which would also require less battery pre-heating to begin with. And what's best, the infrastructure is so much simpler, you can literally get a 3x32A AC EVSE for 200EUR and all that's needed is some sort of payment system.
Besides, power electronics have been improving all the time, using modern parts and knowledge (SiC, GAN, modern inductor core materials, let's not get into details here, many here know the drill), a 22kW internal charger is not such a problem anymore. You don't need to use the inductance of the motor to do that.
So in TLDR, people are pissed by Nissan LEAF coming with the getting-obsolete Chademo DC quick charge but seeing the availability of 22kW charge points, if I could choose between having a 22kW AC charger, or CCS connector on my LEAF, I would probably now choose the former! And if I want a car for 1500km road trips in the middle of winter non-stop, I won't buy 90% of the EV models on the market, and probably not even long-range Tesla, just a good old ICE car. For the EV use pattern, AC might be still the right solution after all, even if Zoe wasn't as successful as they hoped for.
And specifically, I mean 22kW AC, coupled with getting large enough battery pack for 95% of the needs to begin with. The idea that you DC fast charge weekly or more often is doomed, I think, because the charge network cannot expand fast enough compared to the number of new cars sold, and it's detrimental to battery life, too.
Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: David Hess on January 18, 2024, 04:12:46 pm ---I think an EV would be better over the medium term because you can have your own charging infrastructure, while almost nobody has the infrastructure to make their own gasoline and existing stocks will only last a couple years at most.
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These apocalypse dreams are interesting because they always have this scenario that no one can keep doing what they are currently doing, but you can somehow still start growing vegetables somewhere.
I mean, oil comes from holes that are drilled to ground, or to seabed, all over the planet. There are people who keep this running. What is the process which suddenly renders everyone incapable of keeping at least some of it running? But somehow still allows them to switch into growing massive fields of sunflowers and process the seeds into biodiesel?
In other words, I think the only scenario which completely renders our current energy resources inoperable are very gloomy, to the point of actually everybody dying out of something. In which case we are not going to engineer anything out of PV panels. But sure, shortages and increased prices, and some people being unable to get gasoline are realistic. Heck, not everyone on this planet currently can afford such lifestyle. Majority cannot.
Zero999:
--- Quote from: nctnico on January 17, 2024, 04:06:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: tom66 on January 17, 2024, 03:47:52 pm ---- EV is more sustainable for an itinerant lifestyle (off-the-grid).
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No. Gasoline cars can run on ethanol which you can make from plants. Same for diesel. For electricity you need some form of generation and batteries. Neither last decades. Keep in mind that there are people driving around in model-T Fords which are over 100 years old. Also, you can't store electricity very long but liquid fuel can be stored much longer so you can drive all year long with an ICE car in case you are living in an area with large seasonal changes in the weather.
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Not really. Pure ethanol is hygroscopic and will destroy an ICE.
If you want biofuel, use diesel and power it from rapeseed/corn oil. If you must have a petrol engine, then run it from biogas or a gasifier, which can run on waste.
Either way, I would have no use for a car, in an apocalypse. I'd be more interested in a small tractor to help me grow food.
--- Quote from: tom66 on January 18, 2024, 10:55:27 am ---It's all about "green bad" basically. If a technology has an environmental benefit then it's automatically bad because they don't trust people that promote and implement these kinds of solutions. Fear of change perhaps? Without getting too political that kind of is the definition of "conservativism" as a political viewpoint - everything's fine, don't change it.
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One could argue progressivism is bad, because it's change for change's sake, but this isn't the place to discuss that.
It's true there's an element of resistance to change, but the main reason I can think of is people don't like being told what to do. Many are tired of environmentalists lecturing them and governments taxing them because it's good for the planet. It's all about "green = authoritarianism = bad".
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