Author Topic: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.  (Read 28945 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Zero999

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 20363
  • Country: gb
  • 0999
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #175 on: January 19, 2024, 07:23:11 pm »
I wonder if there's anyone else here who doesn't care because they don't own a car?

I cycle most places and when I do want to go longer distances, faster, I have a small motorcycle which does over 120mpg and is cheap to tax and insure and that only gets used every couple of weeks. I can see why most people have a car and the arguments for and against ICE vs EV. As I said in the other post, a lot of the anti-EV sentiment comes from people who feel as tough they're being forced to changed and don't like being told what to do. If governments really want people to get EVs, then they need to make it as easy for people to get them, not bully people into it.
 

Online Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9339
  • Country: fi
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #176 on: January 19, 2024, 07:56:03 pm »
Or a greater percentage of EV drivers are either smart enough not to venture out, or in a work or financial position not to venture out. There's a lot of factors.

I thought about that first, but then it appeared to me that because ICE cars have been there forever, it is also more likely their total number includes vehicles not in active use, especially because old ICE cars are really cheap and one can afford to just keep them registered (I have one spare, too), while EVs are so expensive to buy you have to drive them. This would cause the opposite effect to what you say.

In any case, it's worth seeing the numbers are the same order of magnitude. For something this unscientific not taking fine details into consideration, less than 2x difference is not meaningful. 10x would be.
 
The following users thanked this post: CatalinaWOW, Miyuki

Online Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9339
  • Country: fi
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #177 on: January 19, 2024, 08:06:32 pm »
People whose use case is easily adapted to EVs and those whose use case doesn't fit well with current EV technology.  What both groups have in common is a belief that their use case is universal.

Sure, that's always been the case and I don't believe people are so stupid to think their use case is universal (I hope), rather nearly everyone totally agrees with you to the point of it being so obvious not to be mentioned.

It's interesting though how the advances in EVs constantly shift the portions of these groups. With the first-generation (ignoring 1800's EVs and small one-offs etc. of 1900's) production EVs of early 2010's, they matched with maybe the use pattern of 5%, if even that - only commuting or driving in city; for the occasional longer trip rent an ICE car. Those days are long past. Now longer trips are not the question of being possible at all, but rather that some heavy-duty use cases are still inconvenient with EV. Now EVs suit for maybe 50% of people. If the current pace keeps going, we are going to hit 90-95% in less than 5 years, I believe. The actual transition is still slower of course, because being suitable for someone on my opinion is totally different from someone actually wanting to buy it, and wanting to buy something is then again different from being able to buy it.
 

Offline bdunham7

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8178
  • Country: us
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #178 on: January 19, 2024, 08:21:49 pm »
I thought about that first, but then it appeared to me that because ICE cars have been there forever, it is also more likely their total number includes vehicles not in active use, especially because old ICE cars are really cheap and one can afford to just keep them registered (I have one spare, too), while EVs are so expensive to buy you have to drive them. This would cause the opposite effect to what you say.

Hmmm...I have both an EV and an old all-wheel-drive SUV.  If I needed a tow because I was stuck in the snowy mountains which vehicle do you think I'd be more likely to be in?

Norway and the US upper-midwest are two different places and I can tell you without any equivocation that the latter is a tough place to operate any EV.  EVs have been fairly scarce there until pretty recently, so lets wait and see what a decade of salt exposure does to your average Tesla. 

A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7336
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #179 on: January 19, 2024, 10:49:04 pm »
I thought about that first, but then it appeared to me that because ICE cars have been there forever, it is also more likely their total number includes vehicles not in active use, especially because old ICE cars are really cheap and one can afford to just keep them registered (I have one spare, too), while EVs are so expensive to buy you have to drive them. This would cause the opposite effect to what you say.

I don't follow.  People buy a vehicle to suit their use cases... but they aren't going to drive their car just because it cost a lot of money.  I don't take my car out around the block every night to "get my money's worth".  I bought it in part because I have a long commute, and I prefer EVs, and there are environmental benefits... Driving it more would negate much of that?

What would be useful is annual mileage statistics between fuel types.  IIRC the last time the study was done in the UK it unsurprisingly showed that diesel and hybrid drivers did more miles than petrol drivers.  I would expect EVs to be somewhere in the middle.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39026
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #180 on: January 19, 2024, 11:26:32 pm »
I don't follow.  People buy a vehicle to suit their use cases... but they aren't going to drive their car just because it cost a lot of money.  I don't take my car out around the block every night to "get my money's worth".  I bought it in part because I have a long commute, and I prefer EVs, and there are environmental benefits...

The overall life cycle environmental benefit is questionabale (and probably un-knowable, there are just too many variable). But they certainly have environmental benefits in local air pollution. We literally call our ICE car the "stinky" because of the exhuast. It's amazing the difference you notice between the EV and the ICE. Just sitting there in idle in the drive way the ICE can fill with exhaust fumes. Yet if you don't own an EV you just don't notice the exhaust as you are used to it.
Also obvious benefits in the energy supply chain infrastructure.
Add in the silent ride, the ability to charge at home (from excess solar in my case for zero cost), and the knowledge that regen breaking isn't wasting energy, there is a lot to like about EV's. But they aren't for everyone, and anyone who pushes them as a universal solution to climate change is an idiot.
 
The following users thanked this post: SiliconWizard, Dan123456

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #181 on: January 19, 2024, 11:46:20 pm »
Recently I rode along in a Tesla and didn't notice it was particulary silent compared to my own car (a relatively cheap model from Ford / Volvo). The last 20 years decent ICE cars have been made very silent. It depends on the brand though. About 15 years ago I drove a Renault diesel and it was absolutely silent; I recall trying hard to hear the engine rev up but failed. Tire noise is dominant and in that respect EVs aren't different.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7336
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #182 on: January 20, 2024, 12:21:13 am »
Recently I rode along in a Tesla and didn't notice it was particulary silent compared to my own car (a relatively cheap model from Ford / Volvo). The last 20 years decent ICE cars have been made very silent. It depends on the brand though. About 15 years ago I drove a Renault diesel and it was absolutely silent; I recall trying hard to hear the engine rev up but failed. Tire noise is dominant and in that respect EVs aren't different.

Teslas are not particularly quiet on the inside at highway speeds, the problem really is that Tesla do not spend as much on NVH as other car manufacturers do (at the same price points at least).  The boss has a Model 3 and the company has a Toyota sedan for occasional business use, I would say the Toyota is quieter on motorways, despite having nigh on 180,000 miles on it and being a diesel.

I've been in a few EVs and ICE cars and I would say on the interior they're pretty close once up to speed. With ICE you still have that low rumble from the engine that is difficult to filter out, but the majority of the noise is from air hitting the body and the tyres.

Around the city though at low speeds the lack of acceleration sound is very nice and makes being stuck in slow moving traffic more pleasant.
 

Online tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7336
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #183 on: January 20, 2024, 12:35:53 am »
I don't follow.  People buy a vehicle to suit their use cases... but they aren't going to drive their car just because it cost a lot of money.  I don't take my car out around the block every night to "get my money's worth".  I bought it in part because I have a long commute, and I prefer EVs, and there are environmental benefits...

The overall life cycle environmental benefit is questionabale (and probably un-knowable, there are just too many variable). But they certainly have environmental benefits in local air pollution. We literally call our ICE car the "stinky" because of the exhuast. It's amazing the difference you notice between the EV and the ICE. Just sitting there in idle in the drive way the ICE can fill with exhaust fumes. Yet if you don't own an EV you just don't notice the exhaust as you are used to it.
Also obvious benefits in the energy supply chain infrastructure.
Add in the silent ride, the ability to charge at home (from excess solar in my case for zero cost), and the knowledge that regen breaking isn't wasting energy, there is a lot to like about EV's. But they aren't for everyone, and anyone who pushes them as a universal solution to climate change is an idiot.

Ehhhh... Yes they're not a universal solution but they are part of the solution.

We're going to have to reduce the impact that transport has on the climate.  Just speaking about the UK, 24% of emissions are due to transport, of which roughly half of that is passenger cars. So approximately 10% of all CO2 emissions in this country due to cars.  And cars are low hanging fruit as electrification goes... Aircraft aren't going electric any time soon, and whilst it'd be nice to have trains, buses and bicycles everywhere, this country was built around the car, so we're going to be driving cars for some time.

There are obviously impacts from manufacturing EV batteries but most studies show that these extra emissions are 'paid off' well within the useful life of the car.  The UK has a pretty clean electricity grid; average emissions of 250gCO2 per kWh put the per-mile CO2 average of an EV at around 60g per mile.  A petrol car is typically 2.5x-3x ignoring refining and exploration emissions.  If the EV is charged on "off-peak" electricity more often, the fraction it emits falls further.

But I'd be lying if that was my primary reason for getting an EV.  After all I'm just one person and still some 98-99% of people drive combustion cars, so it's really not making any significant difference.  I got an EV because... I wanted an electric car, if that makes any sense?  They are nicer to drive as you say, they seem like a better use of energy (to me it's absurd how much of that precious fossil fuel energy we throw away propelling a car inefficiently) and they don't require anywhere near as much maintenance or care as an ICE car.
 

Offline fourfathom

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2005
  • Country: us
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #184 on: January 20, 2024, 12:58:06 am »
Re: cabin noise, perhaps it's just a BMW thing, but some models were so quiet inside that BMW decided to pipe some engine noise into the cabin.  Customers *wanted* to hear that rumble.  Me, I've only got ICE vehicles, but for my last "road trip" car one of the factors in my choice was cabin noise.  I want a quiet ride!
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #185 on: January 20, 2024, 01:03:48 am »
Re: cabin noise, perhaps it's just a BMW thing, but some models were so quiet inside that BMW decided to pipe some engine noise into the cabin.  Customers *wanted* to hear that rumble.  Me, I've only got ICE vehicles, but for my last "road trip" car one of the factors in my choice was cabin noise.  I want a quiet ride!
I agree. Piping engine noise or using a speaker (yes, those systems exist!) to have (more) motor sound inside the cabin seems like total crap to me. And yet we'll see BEVs with just that. AFAIK Toyota has some BEV models lined up which emulate stick shifting including the RPM dial and motor sound  :palm:  :palm: FFS!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline vad

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 518
  • Country: us
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #186 on: January 20, 2024, 01:10:49 am »
The only obvious impact of the electrification of transportation is the export of greenhouse gases and other emissions to countries like China. While environmental pollution with carcinogens in China is less likely to affect your neighborhood, CO2 spreads in the atmosphere quickly, so exporting CO2 doesn't work here.

It's challenging to estimate the exact comparative carbon footprint of BEVs vs ICE vehicles. With a BEV, you are prepaying your climate change contribution. Whether a specific ICE or BEV results in higher or lower overall CO2 emissions depends on factors like make and model, driving habits, annual mileage, and the vehicle's lifetime.

For instance, if you're a trader driving 200 miles per day, 250 days a year in your Tesla Cybertruck, you're likely contributing less to CO2 emissions than if you were driving a petrol RAM 1500 for that job. On the other hand, if you're a casual driver with range anxiety who only uses a car for weekly groceries and rents a petrol car for longer trips, your carbon footprint may be significant compared to if you owned ICE car instead.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 01:15:26 am by vad »
 

Offline fourfathom

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2005
  • Country: us
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #187 on: January 20, 2024, 01:14:44 am »
Re: cabin noise, perhaps it's just a BMW thing, but some models were so quiet inside that BMW decided to pipe some engine noise into the cabin.  Customers *wanted* to hear that rumble.  Me, I've only got ICE vehicles, but for my last "road trip" car one of the factors in my choice was cabin noise.  I want a quiet ride!
I agree. Piping engine noise or using a speaker (yes, those systems exist!) to have (more) motor sound inside the cabin seems like total crap to me. And yet we'll see BEVs with just that. AFAIK Toyota has some BEV models lined up which emulate stick shifting including the RPM dial and motor sound  :palm:  :palm: FFS!

This reminds of the cars driven by the general public in the short story "The Marching Morons" by C.M. Kornbluth (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/51233/51233-h/51233-h.htm).  This story obviously influenced the films "Robocop" and "Idiocracy".
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 
The following users thanked this post: quince

Online BrianHG

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8275
  • Country: ca
    • LinkedIn
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #188 on: January 20, 2024, 01:19:29 am »
Re: cabin noise, perhaps it's just a BMW thing, but some models were so quiet inside that BMW decided to pipe some engine noise into the cabin.  Customers *wanted* to hear that rumble.  Me, I've only got ICE vehicles, but for my last "road trip" car one of the factors in my choice was cabin noise.  I want a quiet ride!

The quietest ride I've even been in was a few decades ago when driving a Jaguar XJ12.  The engine was almost completely silent and you were almost virtually isolated from road and wind noise on the highway compared to most other cars.  Except at a stand still and very slow city traffic speeds in an EV, I would call it the most comfortably quiet ride I ever experienced.
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17429
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #189 on: January 20, 2024, 03:00:22 am »
I agree. Piping engine noise or using a speaker (yes, those systems exist!) to have (more) motor sound inside the cabin seems like total crap to me. And yet we'll see BEVs with just that. AFAIK Toyota has some BEV models lined up which emulate stick shifting including the RPM dial and motor sound  :palm:  :palm: FFS!

We used to joke about this in connection with small engine cars.  Install a big sound system facing out to produce the V-8 rumble of your choice, and a little servo arm below the running board to push on the pavement and tilt the vehicle when you gun the simulated engine.
 

Offline Dan123456

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 199
  • Country: au
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #190 on: January 20, 2024, 03:01:35 am »
I don't follow.  People buy a vehicle to suit their use cases... but they aren't going to drive their car just because it cost a lot of money.  I don't take my car out around the block every night to "get my money's worth".  I bought it in part because I have a long commute, and I prefer EVs, and there are environmental benefits...

The overall life cycle environmental benefit is questionabale (and probably un-knowable, there are just too many variable). But they certainly have environmental benefits in local air pollution. We literally call our ICE car the "stinky" because of the exhuast. It's amazing the difference you notice between the EV and the ICE. Just sitting there in idle in the drive way the ICE can fill with exhaust fumes. Yet if you don't own an EV you just don't notice the exhaust as you are used to it.
Also obvious benefits in the energy supply chain infrastructure.
Add in the silent ride, the ability to charge at home (from excess solar in my case for zero cost), and the knowledge that regen breaking isn't wasting energy, there is a lot to like about EV's. But they aren't for everyone, and anyone who pushes them as a universal solution to climate change is an idiot.

Ehhhh... Yes they're not a universal solution but they are part of the solution.


I honestly don’t know man. I think focusing on the grid (and future of the grid) should be the priority as EV’s powered by coal aren’t really any better.

Just remember for every kW of fuel you aren’t burning, you have to build another kW worth of power plant.

Imagine the number of solar / wind farms you would need if 100% of vehicles were EV’s. Some countries would probably be more solar cells than land!

If you build new nuclear plants rather than solar / wind to pick up all the slack, you probably are right! But, at least here in Aus, the anti-nuclear peanuts are still rampant so we would most likely just build more and more coal and gas power plants which doesn’t really change anything.
 

Online Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9339
  • Country: fi
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #191 on: January 20, 2024, 07:40:40 am »
Hmmm...I have both an EV and an old all-wheel-drive SUV.  If I needed a tow because I was stuck in the snowy mountains which vehicle do you think I'd be more likely to be in?
According to these kind of unofficial statistics from tow companies, most likely the old all-wheel-drive SUV, because the #1 reason for tow is not getting stuck in snow, but the vehicle failing to operate due to cold, so the ground clearance and 4WD are red herrings. This is the case in Nordic countries at least, where the roads are kept in acceptable driving conditions, or like in Norway, if that is impossible to do continuously, then the road is closed until a snowplow gets there and then everyone who's lined up drive behind those plows.

On the other hand, if you end up driving in thick snow on unmaintained roads, then you are more likely to get stuck in your (2WD?) EV, but this use case is rare enough not to show in statistics, at least not here in Nordic countries. Maybe it's different in the land of freedom with more land area, longer distances, and as such, more unmaintained roads? Then surely there is a real problem with EVs, because even if you make them in 4WD and large ground clearance, driving long distances between chargers, in snow or mud, consumes so much energy that you need a more energy dense storage system than li-ion.
 

Online Ice-Tea

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3229
  • Country: be
    • Freelance Hardware Engineer
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #192 on: January 20, 2024, 10:33:50 am »
I don't follow.  People buy a vehicle to suit their use cases... but they aren't going to drive their car just because it cost a lot of money.  I don't take my car out around the block every night to "get my money's worth".  I bought it in part because I have a long commute, and I prefer EVs, and there are environmental benefits...

The overall life cycle environmental benefit is questionabale (and probably un-knowable, there are just too many variable). But they certainly have environmental benefits in local air pollution. We literally call our ICE car the "stinky" because of the exhuast. It's amazing the difference you notice between the EV and the ICE. Just sitting there in idle in the drive way the ICE can fill with exhaust fumes. Yet if you don't own an EV you just don't notice the exhaust as you are used to it.
Also obvious benefits in the energy supply chain infrastructure.
Add in the silent ride, the ability to charge at home (from excess solar in my case for zero cost), and the knowledge that regen breaking isn't wasting energy, there is a lot to like about EV's. But they aren't for everyone, and anyone who pushes them as a universal solution to climate change is an idiot.

Ehhhh... Yes they're not a universal solution but they are part of the solution.


I honestly don’t know man. I think focusing on the grid (and future of the grid) should be the priority as EV’s powered by coal aren’t really any better.

Often stated, but wrong:

(Poland runs mainly on coal)

Quote
Just remember for every kW of fuel you aren’t burning, you have to build another kW worth of power plant.

Also remember that burning fuel is about 25% efficient in your car and about 50% in an electricity plant.

Quote
Imagine the number of solar / wind farms you would need if 100% of vehicles were EV’s. Some countries would probably be more solar cells than land!

Fun fact: you don't have to imagine it. Just google the research:

Quote
If you build new nuclear plants rather than solar / wind to pick up all the slack, you probably are right! But, at least here in Aus, the anti-nuclear peanuts are still rampant so we would most likely just build more and more coal and gas power plants which doesn’t really change anything.

I kinda wonder where you get it that they would just build more and more coal and gas. There's a considerbale drive around the world and AUS for PV and wind.

EDIT: some wonky stuff happening with the pictures, removed them from the post body. You can open the attachments.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 10:39:34 am by Ice-Tea »
 

Online tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7336
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #193 on: January 20, 2024, 10:34:45 am »
I honestly don’t know man. I think focusing on the grid (and future of the grid) should be the priority as EV’s powered by coal aren’t really any better.

Just remember for every kW of fuel you aren’t burning, you have to build another kW worth of power plant.

Imagine the number of solar / wind farms you would need if 100% of vehicles were EV’s. Some countries would probably be more solar cells than land!

If you build new nuclear plants rather than solar / wind to pick up all the slack, you probably are right! But, at least here in Aus, the anti-nuclear peanuts are still rampant so we would most likely just build more and more coal and gas power plants which doesn’t really change anything.

This is very country dependent, I know Australia has a lot of coal on its grid.  But it also has a lot of solar which can be used during the afternoon peak to charge cars.

The thing about EVs is they're reasonably agnostic to when they are charged.  Mine charges predominantly at night but it's on an 'intelligent' tariff where the energy provider can shift the windows it charges in according to when excess wind power is available.  In a country with a lot of solar, you might charge more often during the day.  I work from home a fair bit, so my car is parked on my drive most of the day, all I say is "I want 70% battery by 6am, charge whenever you can".

In the UK at least, it's common to have times when there is excess wind, but due to curtailment on the grid from stability services (the minimum stable reserve of spinning generators) and nuclear power plants (which can't shut down quickly) the wind power just can't be used unless there's matching instantaneous demand.  And due to the contracts with renewable energy providers, this energy has to be bought (this part is the government subsidy called the CfD scheme).  So this energy gets used, in part by EVs, and energy providers just want to almost give it away, because if it doesn't get used, they have to pay even more.  Negative electricity pricing.  It's a weird market phenomenon.

On a smaller scale some regions of the UK have capacity limits - there is renewable energy in one area and demand in another but the line capacity between the two can't meet that.  So there are hyperlocal tariffs that encourage demand in the same region that generation is occurring in, reducing losses and maximising utilisation. 

Until the UK has substantial grid level storage (hours to days worth), this situation isn't going to change, though other users of this cheap renewable energy might shift things around (for instance, electric arc furnaces for steel making have been in the news recently - these can switch on and off nearly instantly). 

The intelligent tariff I have has minutely control of the car, last night's charging session is attached, it's interesting to think about what might be going on at the grid level to trigger these charging events.  The car's charging is controlled over its 4G modem but I can charge it any time I like if I don't want the discount - the charger is just a dumb AC unit from Rolec that makes electrons available once the car's CP pin does its thing.
 
The following users thanked this post: Dan123456

Offline Dan123456

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 199
  • Country: au
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #194 on: January 20, 2024, 11:47:02 am »
I honestly don’t know man. I think focusing on the grid (and future of the grid) should be the priority as EV’s powered by coal aren’t really any better.

Just remember for every kW of fuel you aren’t burning, you have to build another kW worth of power plant.

Imagine the number of solar / wind farms you would need if 100% of vehicles were EV’s. Some countries would probably be more solar cells than land!

If you build new nuclear plants rather than solar / wind to pick up all the slack, you probably are right! But, at least here in Aus, the anti-nuclear peanuts are still rampant so we would most likely just build more and more coal and gas power plants which doesn’t really change anything.

This is very country dependent, I know Australia has a lot of coal on its grid.  But it also has a lot of solar which can be used during the afternoon peak to charge cars.


I agree with you  :)

I just think a lot of people think EVs are the magic bullet and everything is going to fall into place around them without taking the time to think how things work (and how a massive numbers of new EVs will affect things) “up stream”  :)

I think we are far better off looking at the other ~90% of greenhouse emissions first rather than the ~10% that comes from cars (especially as all we are really doing with EV’s is kicking the emissions issue up the stream).
 

Offline Dan123456

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 199
  • Country: au
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #195 on: January 20, 2024, 11:58:27 am »
I honestly don’t know man. I think focusing on the grid (and future of the grid) should be the priority as EV’s powered by coal aren’t really any better.

———————

Often stated, but wrong:

(Poland runs mainly on coal)


So are you arguing we should just replace all fuel with coal powered EVs as one study suggests it might be better?

I’m no environmental activist be that sounds like a pretty bad idea to me  :P

Edit: my bad, I broke the quote thing. One day I’ll get the hang of it  :P
« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 12:01:17 pm by Dan123456 »
 

Offline Andy Chee

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1382
  • Country: au
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #196 on: January 20, 2024, 12:09:18 pm »
I honestly don’t know man. I think focusing on the grid (and future of the grid) should be the priority as EV’s powered by coal aren’t really any better.

———————

Often stated, but wrong:

(Poland runs mainly on coal)


So are you arguing we should just replace all fuel with coal powered EVs as one study suggests it might be better?

I’m no environmental activist be that sounds like a pretty bad idea to me  :P
I presume EVs are better, not because they run from coal, but because they are fuel agnostic (i.e. nuclear, solar, wind, hydro, waste veggie oil, timber, hydrogen, natural gas, mice running in wheels, whatever).
 
The following users thanked this post: Dan123456

Online Ice-Tea

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3229
  • Country: be
    • Freelance Hardware Engineer
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #197 on: January 20, 2024, 12:36:54 pm »
I honestly don’t know man. I think focusing on the grid (and future of the grid) should be the priority as EV’s powered by coal aren’t really any better.

———————

Often stated, but wrong:

(Poland runs mainly on coal)


So are you arguing we should just replace all fuel with coal powered EVs as one study suggests it might be better?

I’m no environmental activist be that sounds like a pretty bad idea to me  :P

Edit: my bad, I broke the quote thing. One day I’ll get the hang of it  :P

I'm not saying we should do that. I'm saying that even if we did that the CO2 emissions would be lower.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #198 on: January 20, 2024, 12:39:06 pm »
I honestly don’t know man. I think focusing on the grid (and future of the grid) should be the priority as EV’s powered by coal aren’t really any better.

———————

Often stated, but wrong:

(Poland runs mainly on coal)


So are you arguing we should just replace all fuel with coal powered EVs as one study suggests it might be better?

I’m no environmental activist be that sounds like a pretty bad idea to me  :P
It is. You can make a simple back-of-the-envelope calculation which shows there is no way a BEV running on coal is a better alternative compared to an efficient hybrid. The researchers publishing papers saying otherwise always leave hybrids out. How convenient.... As a mid-term solution, hybrids are actually a better choice given the current circumstance in order to bring CO2 emissions down as these are more affordable and useable for a wider range of people.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 12:45:16 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Andy Chee

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1382
  • Country: au
Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #199 on: January 20, 2024, 12:50:23 pm »
I honestly don’t know man. I think focusing on the grid (and future of the grid) should be the priority as EV’s powered by coal aren’t really any better.

———————

Often stated, but wrong:

(Poland runs mainly on coal)


So are you arguing we should just replace all fuel with coal powered EVs as one study suggests it might be better?

I’m no environmental activist be that sounds like a pretty bad idea to me  :P
It is. You can make a simple back-of-the-envelope calculation which shows there is no way a BEV running on coal is a better alternative compared to an efficient hybrid. The researchers publishing papers saying otherwise always leave hybrids out. How convenient.... As a mid-term solution, hybrids are actually a better choice given the current circumstance in order to bring CO2 emissions down.
Not all hybrids are the same, hybrids come in different energy splits and topologies (series vs parallel). For example, 100kW ICE/100kW electric motor, versus 5kW ICE/195kW electric motor, versus 195kW ICE/5kW electric motor.

So when you say hybrids are a better choice, which hybrid model (and topology) are you talking about?  The 5kW ICE/195kW electric motor hybrid seems worse than a 200kW fully electric.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf