Author Topic: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.  (Read 28932 times)

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Online tom66

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #225 on: January 20, 2024, 10:02:47 pm »
EV efficiency reduces component count not to mention regen. No transmission, There's a reason diesel electric
locomotives and heavy equipment exist.

And that reason is torque at zero RPM.  There are other reasons (on ships, for example) but torque and low-RPM capability are (I believe) the big reasons, not efficiency.

That and a very flat torque curve.  The typical EV power/torque curve looks like constant torque up to something like 30 mph, then constant power after that.  The power only ramps down when Vmax is hit - motor speed approaches limits or inverter cannot drive motor efficiently any faster.

Some hybrids take advantage of this; my GTE would use the electric motor to flatten the ICE torque curve, resulting in (besides between gear shifts) a relatively constant 375Nm of torque at the gearbox input. ICE and EV motor are in parallel in that car, with a clutch to isolate the ICE when not in use, and with the gearbox after both.  That meant it shifted gears in electric mode, one of the few EVs to do so. An ICE varies its torque as speeds increase until it hits peak torque-rpm (somewhere around 2500-3500 rpm, lower for diesel).

Note that for EVs it can actually be beneficial to have a gearbox;  Porsche's Taycan has a 2-speed auto for the rear motor, and the BMW i8 PHEV had something similar.  It adds weight but lets you optimise the motor for a smaller operating range.  Tesla take the approach of differential gearing, at low speeds the front motor is dominant, and high speeds the rear motor takes over, with each being tuned for different speeds of operation.  This reduces complexity, but means they can never have both motors operating at high speeds, reducing power and changing stability, and they have to make the rear motor capable of propelling the car at Vmax (but that's really only relevant for track usage).

When capacity is defined as charge (coulombs, Ah), you get full capacity out even at -30degC, if you can accept using low discharge currents near end of the curve to prevent voltage sagging below the under-voltage lockout levels of the loads like the drive inverter - this is exactly why EVs start limiting power at the end of discharge, finally entering a limb mode: they are making sure you get pretty much every Coulomb out.

Then again, when capacity is defined as energy capacity (Wh), then you have capacity loss which is actually equal to the efficiency loss. Note that even if the loss doubled per each 10degC (which isn't true, but it's in the same ballpark, so let's play along), it's totally different from remaining efficienc (or energy capacity) halving. This is elementary school math: when loss doubles 1% -> 2%, efficiency (and thus energy capacity) doesn't halve, but goes from 99% to 98%, a 1.01% difference, not 50% as jonpaul is saying. The percentage of jonpaul being wrong is then 4950.49504950...%, which doesn't much differ from his usual contributions.

The interesting thing about well made lithium-ion batteries is that they are very close 100% efficient when discharged slowly (C < 0.1).  In fact, losses in the battery are bad, as they signal unwanted reactions are occurring, which reduces the cycle life of the cell.  There is an excellent video on coulombic efficiency of lithium-ion batteries here.  What's interesting is how bad the Nissan cells are in comparison to most other manufacturers. 
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #226 on: January 20, 2024, 10:11:22 pm »
An ICE varies its torque as speeds increase until it hits peak torque-rpm (somewhere around 2500-3500 rpm, lower for diesel).
It is not that simple. It depends entirely on how the ICE is 'tuned' / configured. For example, most turbo-diesels have a flat torque / rpm graph right up to where maximum power begins because that gives the sensation of the strongest accelleration to the driver. Try to race somebody with a turbo diesel with a manual gear and you'll notice most people will shift up once the torque 'runs out'. But this is the spot where the engine starts to develop maximum power and shifting up takes the engine to an RPM range with less power output... so you'll see their car getting smaller in the rear view mirror while you are keeping your foot down and let the engine run in the maximum power rpm range.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 10:15:38 pm by nctnico »
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #227 on: January 20, 2024, 10:56:44 pm »
I think I notice it before too it feels like sometimes when the drill batteries get hot some power tools have a really heavy torque . Like when you run a small drill on overload with a big hole saw. jam jam jam but if you finally get it hot you get a hole

same thing with my cutoff wheel tool, when its cold you can easily get a jammed blade. But keep trying and when the battery feels hot you can get through a plate thats buckling a little and pressing on the blade and being a PITA. It seems the hot batteries provide enough juice to keep the wheel spinning and grind away the slight deflection that crushes it.

I think I notice it the most with a M12 power drill and the M12 cutoff wheel and the variable speed 20v dewalt deburring tool. Angle grinders running flap disks too but usually if you have skill you won't stall those or benefit from the lower ESR if you got the light touch with the grinder. But for hole saws and linear abrasive cutting the extra current makes or breaks the tool. You can't really use skill to overcome a problem like slight pressure from the deflection or just bulk friction from hole saws. That is usually a question of impossible fixturing or just plain luck.

I had problems with the brushed M12 drill being under powered for drilling holes for wiring, and the M12 brushless circular saw was almost useless with the smaller normal output batteries.  In both cases I managed to overheat a battery without any apparent benefit from lower ESR.

The larger and higher output M12 batteries improved on this of course, especially for the M12 brushless circular saw, and I ended up buying the M12 brushless drill just for more torque for drilling big holes.  That Milwaukee released "high output" M12 batteries implies that they also eventually saw it as a limitation.

I really like the M12 tools for their compact and light form factors but it came with performance limitations.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #228 on: January 20, 2024, 11:59:27 pm »
The issue with lithium ion batteries in low temperature is their open circuit voltage falls and ESR increases and so less capacity is usable under low temperatures, the car must ensure that the cell voltage does not fall below the critical level.  The capacity is not lost - just inaccessible.  This is why EVs appear to reduce in available range and many EVs expend energy on heating the battery up as it makes this capacity accessible once the battery has warmed up.

The loss of range in EVs in low temperatures is principally due to the reduced efficiency of cabin heating, battery, and tyres, and for vehicles without a battery heater the reduction can be greater.  Usually winter weather carries other factors like heavier wind and rain which impact efficiency too, but having a heatpump makes a huge difference, which is why the majority of EV models have a heatpump as at least an option now.

If you can endure the cold within the car (i.e. no heater) you could maybe eek out extra range my putting it in ECO mode and driving slowly and carefully, thus reducing the impact of increased ESR.
Not generally a problem in Australia though of course.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #229 on: January 21, 2024, 07:55:53 am »
what is madness is the picture that you would see to show the gasoline production chain with a red gas can at the end.

begin with a 1000 meter drilled bore, a oil well, a oil tanker, a refinery, a gasoline delivery truck, a gasoline station, finally the red can. Typical distance traveled (excluding the highly windy refinery plumbing) is at least 2000 miles. the production montage would have the world map with the red dashed line arrows on it  ;D. Or a disturbingly long time lapse of the ship traveling across the god damn ocean. Maybe it even get attacked by houthi pirates.

the tree burning generator is a highly optimized solution. Like damn when you build it you can even recharge the battery operated chain saws with it. practically a von numan machine. Where is that from, pandora?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2024, 08:02:43 am by coppercone2 »
 
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #230 on: January 21, 2024, 01:55:41 pm »
Quote
the tree burning generator is a highly optimized solution.
Apart from the shipping of the wood pellets from canada to the uk,meanwhile the uk pays to have its rubbish shipped off to sweden were its burnt and turned into electricity
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #231 on: January 25, 2024, 11:15:17 am »
what is madness is the picture that you would see to show the gasoline production chain with a red gas can at the end.
begin with a 1000 meter drilled bore, a oil well, a oil tanker, a refinery, a gasoline delivery truck, a gasoline station, finally the red can. Typical distance traveled (excluding the highly windy refinery plumbing) is at least 2000 miles. the production montage would have the world map with the red dashed line arrows on it  ;D. Or a disturbingly long time lapse of the ship traveling across the god damn ocean.

I spent a decade working in the oil exploration industry. You don't know the half of it!
 
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Online tom66

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #232 on: January 25, 2024, 02:07:22 pm »
If people are wearing blankets to extend the range of their EV, they're idiots, as simple as that.  I drive with the heating on at the speed limit (or more, err, I mean, I'd never do that officer) and I've never had a problem.  I've driven at -5C with heavy oncoming wind and got 10% worse efficiency to summer.  The idea that EVs are unusable with heating on in the winter is FUD spread by people with an agenda, simple as that.
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #233 on: January 25, 2024, 02:11:28 pm »
If people are wearing blankets to extend the range of their EV, they're idiots, as simple as that.

Of course. Instead of blankets, just use winter clothes. You can't drive without heating though, totally impossible and unsafe. You can try and you quickly see how the windows are in frost in 15 minutes. Unless you put the fan to nearly max, and sit in the cold "wind", which is just even more horrible. Walking outdoors is one thing, your body makes the heat when all your muscles are in motion. Sitting standstill in cold wind is just too horrible.

Lowest level of heating available sure. It is equally stupid to use +23degC setting and wonder how the range disappears. +16 is plenty if you have any winter clothing on, as you probably should because what are you going to do when you arrive at destination? Usually get out of the car and walk for some distance. It happens, if you are comfortable walking for some distance at, let's say -10degC, then the same amount of clothing is quite fine for sitting in a car at +15 or so. If you use any more heating, you are sweating and need to take off the clothes, which is just waste of time and effort. Keep them on.

Besides, -5 is nothing, especially with any modern EV with heatpump. It's after -15..-20 when heating power starts to go through roof. And after -20, battery efficiency starts to drop, too, unless you have a warm garage, or drive all the time / use battery heating to keep the battery warm. At -30, real range is halved from the summer numbers, as the heating is now constantly hogging 4kW or so and battery efficiency has maybe dropped to 75%.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2024, 02:18:52 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline MTTopic starter

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #234 on: January 25, 2024, 02:19:43 pm »
If people are wearing blankets to extend the range of their EV, they're idiots, as simple as that.  I drive with the heating on at the speed limit (or more, err, I mean, I'd never do that officer) and I've never had a problem.  I've driven at -5C with heavy oncoming wind and got 10% worse efficiency to summer.  The idea that EVs are unusable with heating on in the winter is FUD spread by people with an agenda, simple as that.

Dont be so harsh on the Chinese, see how they are smiling and are happy under the blankets!  :)
 

Online tom66

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #235 on: January 25, 2024, 03:22:22 pm »
I experimented the other day with the heating in my car.  I tried 'off' and '20C' and the difference was 48 miles range vs 45 miles range, when the battery was at a low state of charge.

I drove home 33 miles with the heating on and arrived home with 8 miles of range, which perfectly matched the so-called "guess-o-meter" (I generally find the indicated on the car to be accurate, usually slightly pessimistic).

This is one issue with Tesla's marketing.  They make exaggerated claims about the range capability of their cars, and the in-car display tends to be overly optimistic.  I would want the range meter in any car to be generally pessimistic.  Tools like ABRP can take into account the actual range of the car (regardless of the display).
 

Offline MTTopic starter

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #236 on: January 25, 2024, 04:32:01 pm »
1 year ago this happened!



and 1 year later, same dude at same company charging station:

https://youtu.be/K64HQ5ZPfdQ?t=740s
« Last Edit: January 25, 2024, 04:44:19 pm by MT »
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #237 on: January 25, 2024, 06:38:30 pm »
I've driven at -5C with heavy oncoming wind and got 10% worse efficiency to summer.  The idea that EVs are unusable with heating on in the winter is FUD spread by people with an agenda, simple as that.

Or maybe people who have a different concept of "winter".  If you have a heat pump system (not everyone does) then -5C is fine.  But -5C isn't what the temperature was where the situtation happened as mentioned in the title of this thread.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Online Siwastaja

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #238 on: January 25, 2024, 06:52:16 pm »
I've driven at -5C with heavy oncoming wind and got 10% worse efficiency to summer.  The idea that EVs are unusable with heating on in the winter is FUD spread by people with an agenda, simple as that.

Or maybe people who have a different concept of "winter".  If you have a heat pump system (not everyone does) then -5C is fine.  But -5C isn't what the temperature was where the situtation happened as mentioned in the title of this thread.

Yes. People living in Alaska, Siberia, or maybe Northern Finland, are unlikely to buy EVs anyway: not only temperatures can go down to -35degC regularly, and -50degC peak cold, distances are long so a "short trip to neighbor's for a coffee" might be 300km one way, without civilization in-between. People want to be self-sustained so they will have their own tanks of gasoline/diesel, maybe thousand of liters/gallons, and some old-ish car they know inside out and can service on the road. Number of such people is also counted in thousands, not millions, so totally irrelevant in the big picture. EVs are clearly not for them.

This leaves EV use in a bit more inhabited areas: say Southern Canada, obviously USA as whole, Southern / up to mid Finland for example. And that would limit the temperatures to usually down to -25degC or so, and maybe -35degC absolute peak. And this is within the realm of possibilities for current EVs, as long as you plan ahead a bit and know the limitations.

Of course, having to plan ahead sucks; limitations sucks. On the other hand, if you have to endure with some limitations for a week or two every 2-3 years, maybe it's not too bad. Nearly all so-called "failures" are not actually total technical failures, car stopping midway, just car losing 10-20% more range than in cold yet bit less extreme weather these same drivers have experienced before. I mean, if you have already driven in -15degC and noticed your range dropped by 30%, then maybe it's a stupid idea to assume it's not going down much further at -30degC, and to assume every charging station in existence is always operational.

But there have always been people who get stranded even with a gasoline car because they are out of fuel. Even such trivially simple planning with huge safety margins (like, the range is 800km, stations available every 50km) is too difficult for some.
 
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #239 on: January 25, 2024, 07:55:29 pm »
what is madness is the picture that you would see to show the gasoline production chain with a red gas can at the end.

begin with a 1000 meter drilled bore, a oil well, a oil tanker, a refinery, a gasoline delivery truck, a gasoline station, finally the red can. Typical distance traveled (excluding the highly windy refinery plumbing) is at least 2000 miles. the production montage would have the world map with the red dashed line arrows on it  ;D. Or a disturbingly long time lapse of the ship traveling across the god damn ocean. Maybe it even get attacked by houthi pirates.

the tree burning generator is a highly optimized solution. Like damn when you build it you can even recharge the battery operated chain saws with it. practically a von numan machine. Where is that from, pandora?

Luckily for us the science of economics can easily and accurately measure the cost of an extended supply chain for the end user with a single number.  There is no need to guess.

Well, except for politicians putting their thumbs on the scale for their favored industries.  It is part of their nature to ignore economics.
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #240 on: January 25, 2024, 11:33:37 pm »

Luckily for us the science of economics can easily and accurately measure the cost of an extended supply chain for the end user with a single number.  There is no need to guess.

Well, except for politicians putting their thumbs on the scale for their favored industries.  It is part of their nature to ignore economics.

Well, sort of.  They can easily and precisely generate a number, which may indeed reflect reality for a little while.   But very few demand curves are really static and well defined, and politicians are not the only ones affecting them.  News media, scientists, social influencers, and many others "put their fingers on the scale", often not intentionally.  In addition the total economic system is so interconnected with so many feedback loops that no one can accurately model it. 

The most recent blatant example of this is all of the myriad disruptions of the markets caused by the COVID situation.  Large auto companies made decisions based on those economic models.  And suddenly everyones economic models were wrong and Rasberry Pi''s became unavailable for a couple of years. 

 

Online Ranayna

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #241 on: January 26, 2024, 08:07:14 am »
I don't follow.  People buy a vehicle to suit their use cases... but they aren't going to drive their car just because it cost a lot of money.  I don't take my car out around the block every night to "get my money's worth".  I bought it in part because I have a long commute, and I prefer EVs, and there are environmental benefits...

The overall life cycle environmental benefit is questionabale (and probably un-knowable, there are just too many variable). But they certainly have environmental benefits in local air pollution. We literally call our ICE car the "stinky" because of the exhuast. It's amazing the difference you notice between the EV and the ICE. Just sitting there in idle in the drive way the ICE can fill with exhaust fumes. Yet if you don't own an EV you just don't notice the exhaust as you are used to it.
Also obvious benefits in the energy supply chain infrastructure.
Add in the silent ride, the ability to charge at home (from excess solar in my case for zero cost), and the knowledge that regen breaking isn't wasting energy, there is a lot to like about EV's. But they aren't for everyone, and anyone who pushes them as a universal solution to climate change is an idiot.
Related:
Last summer, i drove behind a vintage car for some time. I don't remember what make and model, but i have to assume that it was a car without catalytic converter.
That car stunk to high heavens. And the smell lingered in my car for quite a while after it was gone.

Maybe in the past we were all desensitized to that smell, otherwise i have no idea how anyone was able to stand it.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #242 on: January 26, 2024, 08:14:28 am »
We would just momentarily put AC in air recycling mode, which was rather effective at blocking smell from the outside. Still works.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #243 on: January 26, 2024, 08:58:33 am »
Yes. People living in Alaska, Siberia, or maybe Northern Finland, are unlikely to buy EVs anyway
If we make it to net zero, when blue/synthetic fossil fuel costs a multiple in fuel costs, I think they will. If we don't soon, it won't be because of maintaining the status quo, it will be because of societal collapse. So then the wood gassifiers will have the last laugh.

Money is a good motivator and the continued existence of the status quo a fantasy.

Compared to all the real problems facing humanity in the near future, net zero is just an appetizer. If they can't handle that, it's all over.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2024, 09:02:09 am by Marco »
 
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Online tom66

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #244 on: January 26, 2024, 10:38:27 am »
Yes. People living in Alaska, Siberia, or maybe Northern Finland, are unlikely to buy EVs anyway
If we make it to net zero, when blue/synthetic fossil fuel costs a multiple in fuel costs, I think they will. If we don't soon, it won't be because of maintaining the status quo, it will be because of societal collapse. So then the wood gassifiers will have the last laugh.

Money is a good motivator and the continued existence of the status quo a fantasy.

Compared to all the real problems facing humanity in the near future, net zero is just an appetizer. If they can't handle that, it's all over.

My fear is that as a species we can't comprehend the changes needed to fight climate change and we will fail.    If we started 20 years earlier with actual serious efforts then it might have been possible but we are past that point now and we are in to the "mitigate damage" rather than "things could be normal" set of outcomes.  No chance of hitting 1.5C,  even 2C looks unlikely,  more likely somewhere like 2.7-3.5C by 2050.

Now I don't think we will make ourselves extinct or anything so crazy but we will definitely see some very negative shifts in how the climate behaves which will lead to food shortages, resource shortages (particularly fresh water), mass migration and war.

Shame.  Been nice being on this planet as it is though.  Enjoy the ride. 

(It's still worth trying to minimise our impact where we can.)
 

Online Ranayna

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #245 on: January 26, 2024, 01:24:26 pm »
We would just momentarily put AC in air recycling mode, which was rather effective at blocking smell from the outside. Still works.
True, but once the smell was inside, it was already too late. And good luck to the pedestrians and cyclists :P
And i am more referring to the general past. For a single car you can try to block the smell. But back then these were the norm, and you had not one stinky car, but hundreds.

Being in my early fourties, i do not really remember the pre catalytic converter times though. And i'm glad for that.

The reduction of localized emissions alone is a massive benefit of EVs. At some point there will be someone annoyed by the exhaust smell of a now current, then vintage, car and can't imagine how cities must have smelled. And i like this scenario. It's a hopeful picture of the future, amonst many, many other bleak ones.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #246 on: January 26, 2024, 02:40:34 pm »
We would just momentarily put AC in air recycling mode, which was rather effective at blocking smell from the outside. Still works.
True, but once the smell was inside, it was already too late. And good luck to the pedestrians and cyclists :P
Agreed! Sometimes I get passed by motor cycles when cycling and their exhaust smell is horrible. Worst are the old timer cars without catalythic converters.

Quote
And i am more referring to the general past. For a single car you can try to block the smell. But back then these were the norm, and you had not one stinky car, but hundreds.

Being in my early fourties, i do not really remember the pre catalytic converter times though. And i'm glad for that.
Be happy about that for sure. When I was a kid you could smell what a car was running on from 20 meters away. Fortunately there wheren't that many cars back then as there are now.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline coromonadalix

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #247 on: January 26, 2024, 02:56:15 pm »
sucks more to follow big trucks  with their black smoke exhausts than following pre cathalytic  cars  ...

or cars who pump oil more than gaz
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #248 on: January 26, 2024, 04:28:23 pm »
sucks more to follow big trucks  with their black smoke exhausts than following pre cathalytic  cars  ...

If only it were possible to make powerful diesel engines which aren't terrible.

Alas, NIH syndrome strikes again.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.
« Reply #249 on: January 26, 2024, 05:17:32 pm »
Have they not been cleared up some? I passed quite a few lorries today and didn't notice any smoking, nor did I need to put the aircon on recirculation. OTOH, there was one white van which was putting out a cloud of grey stuff and which I could see far enough away that the recirculation was on before I got a whiff of what it was.
 


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