Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.

[bdunham7]

In case of Tesla, until recently superchargers were Tesla exclusive and owners likely already had an app for other reasons, so wasn't a big problem. As of the reasons why you wound not want card payment terminals, having unattended self-service points of sale poses a very high susceptibility to skimmer fraud.

The Chargepoint stations have contactless card readers and I don't think any charging stations I've seen have stripe readers.  Their system seems OK, it's the multitude of little nickel-and-dime operations that have their own apps or cards.

[floobydust]

Dunno what's wrong with that Chicago charging station or those people who left those cars but in say Norway superchargers operate in much harsher weather conditions. I only know Chicago for being a world famous dysfunctional shithole, so prolly has to do something with that.

What is the low temperature limit and who's deciding to lockout charging- the charger or the battery pack?
I thought it was the car's battery pack will refuse fast charging if cold, that makes sense. Not sure if you can drive a cold car either.
I guess the battery heater has to be run and would expect the chargers to be OK. Cooling systems use glycol for low temps.

It's been a week of -38°C weather and did see one or two the Teslas on the road lol. But they live a pampered life, parked inside a heated garage so after a few hours on the road they cool down, freeze and... time to drive home, all done shopping. The hit on battery life with interior heater and battery heater on, must be significant.

[bdunham7]

What is the low temperature limit and who's deciding to lockout charging- the charger or the battery pack?

I doubt it was a direct intentional temperature lockout, especially since it didn't get ridiculously cold there--it's not Yellowknife.  But yes, the energy gets sucked out very quickly when the temperature goes well below freezing and the batteries have to warm up to charge if they are cold.  They do use energy to keep the battery warm when driving, so if you get on a charger right away it may not be a big deal.  But all those cars sitting outside getting cold soaked is going to be a headache.

[Siwastaja]

The cold wether also adds quite some demand on the battery usage for heating the car. So those cars that are normally mainly charged at home suddently need an extra charge after only a relatively short drive.

This is a dimensioning problem - if large number of people choose their EV based on the full battery capacity just barely being enough for their actual needs, there are going to be serious problems when everybody choose to make longer trips on the same day, even if weather is good. Cold weather exacerbates the problem. A lot of discussion is going on about quick charging power and how it needs to increase more and more and more, car manufacturers have stopped talking about battery capacity and started talking about their theoretical maximum fast charging power, yet realistically I can already see how people who depend on quick charging sit in their "capable of 150kW" vehicles, queuing for a vacant quick charger while charging at 0kW and actually consuming 2kW to stay warm, to finally find a free charger out of ten, which, all being in use, are running power-limited at 50kW since the provider doesn't want to pay for a larger main fuse contract for those short peaks.

So realistically, quick charging still means 30-50kW and if you are fine with that, then things are looking good for you. I was pondering between 40kWh and 60kWh Nissan LEAF, and chose the larger one, which means I can mostly do with home charging. That choice has already proven really good; if I stop for shopping/etc., I can see how all the DC quick chargers, with the CCS-only plug the Leaf doesn't even support, are lined up, while level 2 stations sit unused, so I can plug in and get maybe 10-20km of extra charge, which is enough because I chose the bigger battery pack.

Those who have to rely on the public charging network all the time create an exponential problem when there is any glitch. The expectation of charging EVs "like pumping in gasoline" was always wrong, and still is, but this is exactly what we get when "normal people" start adapting EVs. It's not going to be pretty, but quite obviously the current fossil thing isn't pretty either - when the temperature hits -30degC, there is epidemic of diesel vehicles dying and needing a tow, so 

[tom66]

It's very much dependent on the right vehicle for the right climate too.  One thing that surprises me is there is little effort from EV manufacturers to insulate the battery pack.  The cells are essentially directly connected to the steel casing and a cooling loop passes below - a small plastic layer provides a little bit of insulation, but pretty minimal.  EVs for colder climates might benefit from having batteries optimised for colder weather, with thermal insulation being prioritised. The cabin itself is also usually poorly insulated.  Single-glazed side windows are common, for instance, and door areas typically aren't thermally insulated.

Certainly the case that a heat pump is really good for longer range driving in winter.  My ID.3 gets about 200 miles on a full charge in summer, and in the 0C winters that are common to the UK (thanks jet stream) this only drops by about 10-15 miles with heating, heated seats, steering wheel and other accessories like lights on.  One thing is noticeable and that is when cold the battery power and regen are quite limited; this morning the car was at -2C and the regen was 50% available and acceleration was about 70% available.  However after about 10 miles of driving those power levels had been restored to nearly 100%.  VW got some flak for the early control firmware in their cars which would dump a load of heat into the battery (it is glycol-cooled/heated) to get these limits up sooner, as that would have a terrible impact on range for short journeys but kept the driving experience more consistent.  That has been changed in later software releases.  More efficient, but you get less power when the car is cold.  Engineering is a trade-off but I think the new solution is better.

Another factor is that some car manufacturers really haven't got the integration right.  To rapid charge, EV batteries ideally would be around 20-30C or so.  In the summer this is no issue; in winter, the pack needs longer to heat.  Tesla does pre-heat the battery if the car is 'navigated' to a charger, but most manufacturers don't (VW don't, for instance), nor do many manufacturers offer a 'preheat battery' option in the user-interface.  Allegedly, this is coming in a software update *soon*, but with no guarantee of when.  I don't rapid charge that often (90% of my driving is done at home) so it's not a big deal for me, but it really should have been there from the start.

Overall, my recommendation for EVs is:  if you regularly travel long distances, beyond the range of your car's battery, and/or you have no home charging and no destination charging, you probably want to wait before you get an EV.  They work really well for a lot of people, but not so well for others.

[EEVblog]

Overall, my recommendation for EVs is:  if you regularly travel long distances, beyond the range of your car's battery, and/or you have no home charging and no destination charging, you probably want to wait before you get an EV.  They work really well for a lot of people, but not so well for others.

John Cadoges just released a video complaining that charging an EV costs more than an ICE car.
Who buys a car without considering practical implications?
If you have a small garage you don't buy a huge RV. If you have to rely on fast charger networks, then don't buy an EV. If you need long range, don't buy an EV. etc etc. it's not rocket science.

[Siwastaja]

Using battery power to run battery heater for any other purpose than pre-heat for charging is a bad design mistake, IMHO. Discharging itself creates whatever waste power is required to heat up the battery, in the best possible location, within the cell itself, and bare minimum energy required to restore the efficiency. For fun, I tried my Nissan Leaf, which does not have any kind of battery heating (the smaller 40kWh pack does, with colossally stupid drive logic) which had sat for a few days unused outside at relatively stable -26..-27 degC, to see that power was limited from the usual 160kW to 90kW, which still offered plenty of acceleration. During winter, it is quite hard to find a road where you can get traction to enjoy much more power than that.

Using battery power to run battery heater always ends up more wasted energy. Engineers might think "it's not that much" and "it offers more consistent performance", but such thinking is prone to false assumptions. Maybe I want every drop of the precious energy, and don't mind reduced performance during times when one doesn't want the performance anyway.

But charging is different. Lithium ion chemistry is prone to lithium plating which is super detrimental to the cell lifetime, and actually dangerous, if charged at too high rates, and the maximum safe rate is strongly function of the temperature and also state-of-charge. If the pack is at -30degC, it's not only about DC quick charge anymore - even level2 AC charging rate would need limitation, especially beyond 80% state-of-charge. And in winter, you lose range, so you want to charge fully, even if you stop at 80% in summer.

The best idea, by far, is to charge quickly after coming to stop, and not wait so that the pack cools down. Therefore the waste heat of the battery pack itself does the job.

People have installed DIY thermal insulation on Leaf's battery pack, which conveniently comes with a plastic cover with voids between the cover and the metal pack itself, to be filled with polyurethane sheeting or similar. It's a big deal, because battery pack itself has a lot of thermal mass. Even the modest amount of thermal waste energy from driving the vehicle daily - or even every other day! - keeps the pack significantly above the ambient temperature if you add insulation. The big question is though, do you remove this insulation for summer? The very same Nissan Leaf packs are known to heat up in the summer if you try to road trip i.e. repeated quick charging, to the point of charging power dropping below 20kW, and the LMO chemistry is also known to specifically suffer from long-term high temperature storage - well any other li-ion chemistry is vulnerable to accelerated calendar fading, too.

[tom66]

Overall, my recommendation for EVs is:  if you regularly travel long distances, beyond the range of your car's battery, and/or you have no home charging and no destination charging, you probably want to wait before you get an EV.  They work really well for a lot of people, but not so well for others.

John Cadoges just released a video complaining that charging an EV costs more than an ICE car.
Who buys a car without considering practical implications?
If you have a small garage you don't buy a huge RV. If you have to rely on fast charger networks, then don't buy an EV. If you need long range, don't buy an EV. etc etc. it's not rocket science.

Oh dear, he really just annoys me now. Does he talk about anything other than how EVs are shit?  I used to enjoy his channel, it's a bit of a shame.   

Yes if you use a rapid charger every day you will probably pay more than petrol (though this is VERY network dependent), but you can charge on public AC charging here and it's still cheaper than petrol.  Or you can charge at home if you have a driveway and it's drastically cheaper than petrol.  I pay about 2 pence per mile,  that's approximately f-all in any reasonable currency, the tyres literally cost more, and the depreciation on the vehicle is certainly more.  The only catch to get this cheap rate: the charging time has to be scheduled by the electricity company.  They guarantee the vehicle will be charged by 6 am, but want to choose the best time to do so to maximise usage of renewable energy.

Even if I didn't have that and charged on regular on-peak electricity rates it would be cheaper, though the cost advantages are less.

Then add up the servicing and wear... My car has a 2-year service pattern which consists of a brake fluid check (replace if necessary), cabin air filter and body inspection.  I expect, based on normal treatment of the battery*, that the battery will outlive most other major components of the car.  (1,000 cycles @ 200 miles per charge is 200,000 miles; and modern Li-Ion cells should do even more than that.)

The other thing is, you can 'subscribe' to groups of charging networks and get a lower kWh rate, so if you do regularly use them you pay less overall.  The charging companies want to maximise usage of 'their' network, over others, because that helps them pay their investment back.  I personally don't bother because I'm not a frequent user of rapid chargers. 

_{*Avoiding long periods of storage at 100%, normally charging to 60-80% for daily usage, charging on AC more often than DC, and avoiding long periods of 0% in cold weather for instance.}

[Halcyon]

I've considered an EV on and off over the last 2 or 3 years. So far, the numbers just don't add up (for me). This also includes resale value.

These days, since I'm almost always working from home, I spend far less than I used to in fuel, maintenance, tyres etc... however despite my relatively low kilometres over the course of a year, the trips I generally do are relatively long (when I'm not flying). If I'm heading to Sydney and back in a day, I'm looking at ~200 kilometres round-trip, easily. If I'm working in Canberra, that's a 680-700 km round-trip and about 3.5 hours each way. I don't have the time to sit at a charger for an additional 30-60 minutes in Goulburn as I'm coming and going (time = money).

Then comes the overall cost of the car during the "life" of the car (life as in, the amount of time I generally own vehicles for, not until they are dead and due for significant repair costs). I'm far better off with an economical turbo petrol vehicle over EV. Will things change? Maybe? I'm seeing more and more investment into charging stations across Australia but it's no where near enough yet to address even the relatively minor issue of "range anxiety" for many drivers.

Australia is a huge country and not everyone can afford to live in or near the major cities, or even have a garage they can park/charge in overnight. If you're the type of driver that travels short distances (perhaps 20-30 minutes) and you have your own renewable charging infrastructure at home, it makes sense. For everyone else, you might break even, or even end up spending more.

[Ice-Tea]

That MGuys video is truly light on anything substantial, tbh. He doesn't get further than "shit is expensive". That's not even a back of the envelope calculation. Most large commercial sites like supermarkets etc. already have a mid-voltage connection. There's no extra cost there.

So: if you have a charger doing 50kw for 5h a day, you're making about 0.4€/kWh so about 100€/day or 35k per year. Feel free to move around some commas and dots but the idea that you can't possibly make a buck on EV chargers is just dumb. If you can get a reasonable occupancy rate, there's probably is no issue at all.

[newbrain]

Why Hertz is Dumping Tesla

Hertz and and Tesla have been in disagreement for a long time.

It's no surprise that the relationship would fall apart.
We now know they are both wrong, but Hertz less so.

The first believed EM waves propagated through an ether as transverse waves, while the second stated that they were longitudinal waves in a gas.

[nctnico]

BTW: I never understood why companies that install public chargers require apps and seperate payments systems.

In case of Tesla, until recently superchargers were Tesla exclusive and owners likely already had an app for other reasons, so wasn't a big problem. As of the reasons why you wound not want card payment terminals, having unattended self-service points of sale poses a very high susceptibility to skimmer fraud.

Don't think so. There are tons of unattended vending machines everywhere.

[Marco]

People have installed DIY thermal insulation on Leaf's battery pack, which conveniently comes with a plastic cover with voids between the cover and the metal pack itself, to be filled with polyurethane sheeting or similar. It's a big deal, because battery pack itself has a lot of thermal mass. Even the modest amount of thermal waste energy from driving the vehicle daily - or even every other day! - keeps the pack significantly above the ambient temperature if you add insulation. The big question is though, do you remove this insulation for summer? The very same Nissan Leaf packs are known to heat up in the summer if you try to road trip i.e. repeated quick charging, to the point of charging power dropping below 20kW, and the LMO chemistry is also known to specifically suffer from long-term high temperature storage - well any other li-ion chemistry is vulnerable to accelerated calendar fading, too.

That's the problem with air cooling.

It would be nice if Tesla would start offering vacuum insulation on their packs, where Tesla goes the industry follows, it would eliminate the problem. Power needed to keep pack warm becomes much smaller.

[nctnico]

So: if you have a charger doing 50kw for 5h a day, you're making about 0.4€/kWh so about 100€/day or 35k per year. Feel free to move around some commas and dots but the idea that you can't possibly make a buck on EV chargers is just dumb. If you can get a reasonable occupancy rate, there's probably is no issue at all.

You are only looking at the turnover. Now factor in the costs for maintenance, payment system, electric grid connection and purchase price per kWh. Don't be surprised you end up with making like 5 cents per kWh and this will need to pay for interest and profits. The biggest problem is that public charging is more expensive compared to running an efficient car on gasoline really quick so there is a limit to what companies can make from charging points. I also foresee that governments will set limits on prices for public charging points to prevent price gauging, especially for street level charging where people are stuck with one supplier.

[tom66]

Vacuum sealing the battery pack would be... interesting for Tesla.  They can't seem to get panels well aligned, so I have my doubts about that persisting.  Currently the packs are vented with expansion valves that prevent water ingress (normally!)

BTW: I never understood why companies that install public chargers require apps and seperate payments systems.

In case of Tesla, until recently superchargers were Tesla exclusive and owners likely already had an app for other reasons, so wasn't a big problem. As of the reasons why you wound not want card payment terminals, having unattended self-service points of sale poses a very high susceptibility to skimmer fraud.

Don't think so. There are tons of unattended vending machines everywhere.

Vast majority of charging stations are contactless without PIN anyway.  Contactless payment doesn't currently have any known viable attacks and phone payment is even more secure as it generates a new virtual card for each payment (kinda, the actual method varies).

[EEVblog]

Oh dear, he really just annoys me now. Does he talk about anything other than how EVs are shit?  I used to enjoy his channel, it's a bit of a shame.   

He seems to have a EV rerangement syndrone. But his audience seem to lap it up, so he's giving them what they want.

Then add up the servicing and wear... My car has a 2-year service pattern which consists of a brake fluid check (replace if necessary), cabin air filter and body inspection.  I expect, based on normal treatment of the battery*, that the battery will outlive most other major components of the car.  (1,000 cycles @ 200 miles per charge is 200,000 miles; and modern Li-Ion cells should do even more than that.)

My IONIQ costs $150 every 15k to service. Many people ask me why I bother. Err, just the tyre rotation alone would save me almost that amount. Not to mention it's still a 1.5ton lethal machine with steering, suspension, hydraulic brakes, and all the other stuff a normal car has.

I just changed my first tyres after 50,000km, but apart from that, the $150 service is the only major cost. That same 50,000km in my ICE would have cost me at least $10k in petrol, plus the way more expensive service.

[tom66]

So: if you have a charger doing 50kw for 5h a day, you're making about 0.4€/kWh so about 100€/day or 35k per year. Feel free to move around some commas and dots but the idea that you can't possibly make a buck on EV chargers is just dumb. If you can get a reasonable occupancy rate, there's probably is no issue at all.

You are only looking at the turnover. Now factor in the costs for maintenance, payment system, electric grid connection and purchase price per kWh. Don't be surprised you end up with making like 5 cents per kWh. The biggest problem is that public charging is more expensive compared to running an efficient car on gasoline really quick so there is a limit to what companies can make from charging points. I also foresee that governments will set limits on prices for public charging points to prevent price gauging, especially for street level charging where people are stuck with one supplier.

The biggest cost is capital.  These chargers are expensive (~50k euro for one 150kW charging unit) and need to be paid off somehow.  Investors are getting antsy because interest rates being high means they can make more on money markets and more stable capitalised companies rather than riskier EV charging startups.

Tesla has cheap charging for both Tesla and non-Tesla because their immense size means they can outcompete everyone on capital costs, they don't really need to worry. They also have a highly vertically integrated charging system, making the charger, power electronics and doing the install work mostly themselves (grid connections and groundworks are about all they outsource).

The grid connections problem is the big one, at least for the UK.  These lines last 100 years, but obviously someone has to pay for the install now.  The UK has decided that is the private market so costs have skyrocketed.  It doesn't have to be that way.  Large infrastructure is always better when built by public funds because the long term benefits to society (economic growth for instance) are not directly felt by private entities.

[EEVblog]

If I'm heading to Sydney and back in a day, I'm looking at ~200 kilometres round-trip, easily.

My IONIQ uses zero average charge going from Blackheath to Penrith 

[EEVblog]

Australia is a huge country and not everyone can afford to live in or near the major cities, or even have a garage they can park/charge in overnight. If you're the type of driver that travels short distances (perhaps 20-30 minutes) and you have your own renewable charging infrastructure at home, it makes sense. For everyone else, you might break even, or even end up spending more.

EV's make real sense if you can charge at home during the day from solar and/or at work for free. (For those not in Oz, over 30% of home here have solar, largest uptake in the world)
The more slient ride and no stinky exhaust are major benefits, but not game changers.
The IONIQ will get me up the the blue mountains and back one one charge easily, and almost to Newcastle and back. So not bad, but anything more and we'd be taking the ICE.

[Ice-Tea]

You are only looking at the turnover. Now factor in the costs for maintenance...

If I have to choose between paying the maintenance for a gasoline pump or EV charger, I'm thinking I'm going with the charger. Put another way (sample size = 1): times I saw a maintenance crew on pumps: many. On EV chargers: none.

payment system

These days, you can pay with a credit card on vending machines selling bags of patatoe chips. I'm sure it'll cost maybe a few %, but c'mon...

electric grid connection and purchase price per kWh

All in cost for domestic electricity is about 0.4€/kWh around here. I can't find a 50+ fastcarger anywhere close (not counting Tesla...) below 0.8€. I'm pretty sure that if you tap a mid voltage cabinet prices won't be higher and most likely lower.

Don't be surprised you end up with making like 5 cents per kWh.

I doubt that very much.

The biggest problem is that public charging is more expensive compared to running an efficient car on gasoline really quick so there is a limit to what companies can make from charging points.

Disagree. That's like saying "orchards can't possibly exist because they make less €/m² than gas stations do". That's not how that works. If there's a healthy margin to be had, you'll find people willing to operate chargers.

I also foresee that governments will set limits on prices for public charging points to prevent price gauging, especially for street level charging where people are stuck with one supplier.

I'm not sure what the argument is here. Government intervention can kill or foster any economic possibility, that's not unique to EV chargers.

[Siwastaja]

EV's make real sense if you can charge at home during the day from solar

Or, at home, living in any country with somewhat sensible energy politics such that the cost of fossil fuels is the same order of magnitude (say, within +/-50%) as electricity, per energy. For example, I understand how Germans have had hard time going EVs since their electricity cost is 3-4 times the cost of gasoline, so the EV's 4-5x better efficiency is almost gone. But you only have to cross the border to France to find sensible electricity cost. Or Norway, where both gasoline and electricity are relatively cheap for the living standard. Or Finland, where electricity is cheaper per energy than gasoline, so EVs are obviously massively cheaper to drive.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Electricity_price_statistics

But yeah, home charging is still pretty much mandatory, I agree with that. And nothing's wrong with that. Discussion is now too much around improving DC quick charge network, and maximum peak charging power. Those are important, too, but the same problem can be solved from another direction as well: keep making those battery packs larger, and improve home/destination charging options. Quick charging is important to have, but if you have to quick charge all the time, demand will keep exceeding the response.

I mean, all that is needed is a very cheaply manufactured level-2 station, can be limited to low power like just 3-4kW, with some cheap but reliable microtransaction model for payment, then sprinkle those in parking lots, streets, etc. Just like those old-school parking meters next to the parking lanes on the streets. And those who live in apartments, many still have cars, right, and park them somewhere? We have had these things here since forever: https://www.vastavalo.net/albums/userpics/10716/normal__DSC0599-3.jpg . They are fused to just 6A or 10A, but the same idea can be extended to overnight EV charging pretty easily. We use them to heat ICE engine blocks so that they can start in the morning, what waste of energy.

[Marco]

Vacuum sealing the battery pack would be... interesting for Tesla.  They can't seem to get panels well aligned, so I have my doubts about that persisting.

You don't vacuum seal the pack, you just make a battery well and cover out of vacuum insulation panels.

There will be some cold bridging from punch through of mounting brackets, etc.

[Andy Chee]

It seems everyone has missed the white elephant in the room, which is that government policies and regulations in response to climate change targets, is what's artificially forcing vehicle manufacturers to phase out ICE production. 

Of course, these policies have a domino effect on EV infrastructure from; charging stations, power grid network reliability, and ultimately generating capacity.  But such policies also imply a future shift away from private vehicle ownership i.e. you don't need an EV for transport if you've got alternative transport options, or live in a 15-minute city.

This forum being a technology and engineering themed forum, probably naturally shies away from discussion of government response to climate change.  But everyone should acknowledge that it's the fault of government intervention, not the free market, that has led to the uptake of EVs (and solar panels, wind turbines, and everything so-called "green").

Is government intervention good or bad? Well I'm kicking that can of worms down the road for someone else to open.

[Halcyon]

If I'm heading to Sydney and back in a day, I'm looking at ~200 kilometres round-trip, easily.

My IONIQ uses zero average charge going from Blackheath to Penrith 

Yes, but that's in "holiday" mode. Not "travelling to the office in start-stop peak hour" mode. ;-)

I get your point though.

[nctnico]

It seems everyone has missed the white elephant in the room, which is that government policies and regulations in response to climate change targets, is what's artificially forcing vehicle manufacturers to phase out ICE production. 

Of course, these policies have a domino effect on EV infrastructure from; charging stations, power grid network reliability, and ultimately generating capacity.  But such policies also imply a future shift away from private vehicle ownership i.e. you don't need an EV for transport if you've got alternative transport options, or live in a 15-minute city.

This forum being a technology and engineering themed forum, probably naturally shies away from discussion of government response to climate change.  But everyone should acknowledge that it's the fault of government intervention, not the free market, that has led to the uptake of EVs (and solar panels, wind turbines, and everything so-called "green").

Is government intervention good or bad? Well I'm kicking that can of worms down the road for someone else to open.

You make it sound like a government is like a divine deity but in reality governments are what people have voted for (or allow) to rule them. So in the end subsidising technology that shifts society away from fossil fuels as an energy source, is a choice people are making by themselves. Maybe not individually but most certainly as a group.