Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.

[nctnico]

In the end your life / safety is worth more compared to saving a few bucks.

I doubt you can ignore vehicle weight for tire design, especially for aquaplaning.

It is not like BEVs are twice as heavy. The difference is a few hundred kilograms at most between comparable cars.

[PlainName]

a few hundred kilograms at most

"Quarter of a ton"

The actual weight, and thus effect, depends how you describe it

[Zero999]

I wonder if modern cars with traction control promote more risky driving because the driver gets less of a hint they're pushing it to the limit before they lose control. Perhaps the car should warn the driver when they're pushing it, by gently vibrating the seat and making a noise?

[temperance]

Golf 4: 1107 kg
Golf 5: 1302 kg
Golf ID3: 1705 kg
Golf ID4: 1966 kg

For the Golf 4 and 5 you have to add fuel or something like 40 kg.

That's not "a few hundred kilograms at most between comparable cars" but 650 kg. This requires heavier brakes, better tires and a change in driving style. The recent change however in driving style seen on motorways seems to be slaloming between cars when a suitable gap on no matter which lane has been found because you can overtake cars in a matter of seconds with those machines. So I adapted my driving style to leave even a larger gap between me and the car in front of me to give way to the idiots.

When I was a teenager a golf GTI was a very fast car and many youngsters killed themself (and very often their friends too. The weekend tragedies.) because they overestimated their driving skills while running on coke and pills. Today people are driving around in cars with acceleration figures close those of a formula 1 car.

[David Hess]

I wonder if modern cars with traction control promote more risky driving because the driver gets less of a hint they're pushing it to the limit before they lose control. Perhaps the car should warn the driver when they're pushing it, by gently vibrating the seat and making a noise?

Yes, various driver stability improvements promote riskier driving.

When anti-lock brakes first became available there was an opportunity to study their effects on drivers.  Some cities required taxi fleets to have anti-lock brakes so there was plenty of good data.  Initially the number of collisions went down, but as the drivers became accustomed to anti-lock brakes, the number of collisions increased until it reached the previous level, and on average the collisions became more serious.

I would sure like traction control for driving over snow and ice.  Spinning out on a highway 395 and getting stuck off the side of the road once was one time too many, even if everybody else on the highway did the same thing when the freezing rain started.  Had this happened a few miles further on, I would have crashed down the side of a mountain.  Since I cannot afford a new vehicle, and maybe I would not want one anyway, I installed a weather station so I can keep better track of outside conditions, beefier tires, and am adding a front bumper with tow hooks and big fog lights for better visibility in rain, snow, and fog.

[coromonadalix]

I wonder if modern cars with traction control promote more risky driving because the driver gets less of a hint they're pushing it to the limit before they lose control. Perhaps the car should warn the driver when they're pushing it, by gently vibrating the seat and making a noise?

i have it on mine,  sound alarm and blinking sign in the dash,  but  sometimes it goes against you,   
it may or will choke the motor output,  but when you really need it  nada niet, it become dangerous to a certain extent

many feature are a give and take .... some are good, some are discuttable

you have lane assist, front and rear obstacles detection,  dead angle detection  ........    too much snow on the top winshield, the car complains    ... too much dew in the habitacle   car complains  ...........

[Siwastaja]

Golf 4: 1107 kg
Golf 5: 1302 kg
Golf ID3: 1705 kg
Golf ID4: 1966 kg

That's not "a few hundred kilograms at most between comparable cars" but 650 kg.

You are comparing some older generation of ICE vehicles with modern-day EVs, while missing the fact ICE vehicles also became heavier. It's a weird idea how a 300kg, maybe 350kg battery pack would make the car weigh 650kg more, and it obviously doesn't - add the fact that electric motors have excellent power density, so the weight has to come from somewhere else.

So the big question is, why are cars getting heavier and more SUV-like all the time, worsening aerodynamics as well? I don't like it. It's also crap on fuel efficiency. This trend affects both ICEs and EVs. And EV designers get some slack from regenerative braking and think they can get away with extra weight, which I don't like either.

Same can be said about tires. Wider, and wider, and wider, despite the fact that optimum tire width was found decades ago and the increases have almost exclusively negative effects, including both increased fuel consumption and worse grip. They are also more expensive to buy.

I would like to see a VW Golf class EV with weight less than 1200kg. While some advances in battery energy density would be still needed to reach that goal, it seems to me it's actually not the #1 problem anymore. Too much weight from everything else than the battery. Just think about the sudden 200kg increase between your quoted Golf 4 and 5 numbers. Where did that come from? I mean, you can get pretty decent EV battery in that 200kg!

[nctnico]

According to what I've read in various articles is that safety features like airbags, re-inforcements, crumple zones, etc are adding the the weight. In addition to that, cars keep getting bigger by about 2cm per year. The latter is due to car manufacturers wanting to sell you a bigger 'the same' car without you thinking you are buying a more expensive model. The Volkswagen Polo is a classic example of a car that has been inflated over the years. But once the entry level model got too big & expensive, car manufacturers put a new entry level car on the market. Like the Volkswagen Up . And the upsizing cycle starts again.

[coppice]

So the big question is, why are cars getting heavier and more SUV-like all the time, worsening aerodynamics as well? I don't like it. It's also crap on fuel efficiency. This trend affects both ICEs and EVs. And EV designers get some slack from regenerative braking and think they can get away with extra weight, which I don't like either.

The claim is reaching 5 stars for NCAP testing means cars need a lot more material to strengthen them, even though they are now using higher strength steels. Its the same reason that window area is shrinking, and reversing cameras are becoming a necessity. I remember in 1992 when Toyota released a massively reworked Camry. Its was considered a breakthrough update. People loved the car in most ways, but a lot wouldn't buy it because it felt like looking through the slit of an armoured car. Now pretty much every car is like that.

[Marco]

Contemporary VW Golf 1.5 is still ~1300 kg and has 5 star NCAP.

[temperance]

The weight figures quoted earlier didn't take the ICE version into account. Meanwhile I found a complete list. A golf 7 with a 1.2 l TSI engine is about 1205 kg. A blue motion version is about 1377 kg and 2.0 TDI weighs 1.366 kg.

It also seems it wasn't honest to compare those numbers with a ID4 because the ID 4 is about 30 cm longer than a golf 7. The difference in weigh between a 2 L TDI and an ID3 is about 300 kg. (with a full fuel tank.)

[David Hess]

...

In addition to that, cars keep getting bigger by about 2cm per year. The latter is due to car manufacturers wanting to sell you a bigger 'the same' car without you thinking you are buying a more expensive model.

...

The US EPA has their hand in that also.  Fuel economy standards are indexed by weight and size encouraging larger vehicles which are less fuel efficient.  This has killed smaller pickups over the past decades; my 2002 pickup looks tiny compared to the smallest available pickups today.

[tom66]

Ah yes, thank you for reminding me of the other major EV consideration; weight.

So, if someone insists on using normal tyres on their EV, they need to choose a higher load index. Which means stiffer sidewalls, and more road noise. Back to square one... (almost)

The load index for my vehicle's tyre is just 95V, which is very much in the normal range.  A VW Golf Mk8 runs on 92V which represents at most 50kg less per wheel.

I wonder if modern cars with traction control promote more risky driving because the driver gets less of a hint they're pushing it to the limit before they lose control. Perhaps the car should warn the driver when they're pushing it, by gently vibrating the seat and making a noise?

Yes, various driver stability improvements promote riskier driving.

When anti-lock brakes first became available there was an opportunity to study their effects on drivers.  Some cities required taxi fleets to have anti-lock brakes so there was plenty of good data.  Initially the number of collisions went down, but as the drivers became accustomed to anti-lock brakes, the number of collisions increased until it reached the previous level, and on average the collisions became more serious.

I think there probably is some risk compensation, but it's worth noting in nearly every country the number of people killed in road accidents every year has been falling.  Cars are safer, whether that is through airbags and crumple zones, or collision avoidance systems.  I certainly wouldn't choose to drive without these systems.

In terms of 'safe until it isn't', I think that's particularly noticeable with ESP (electronic stability).  I did notice in my previous Golf that it really was nailed to the road in corners, but there were times where you could just about feel the ESP system reaching its control authority and the car becoming a lot more dynamic.  This was particularly noticeable in wet weather.

[tom66]

The weight figures quoted earlier didn't take the ICE version into account. Meanwhile I found a complete list. A golf 7 with a 1.2 l TSI engine is about 1205 kg. A blue motion version is about 1377 kg and 2.0 TDI weighs 1.366 kg.

It also seems it wasn't honest to compare those numbers with a ID4 because the ID 4 is about 30 cm longer than a golf 7. The difference in weigh between a 2 L TDI and an ID3 is about 300 kg. (with a full fuel tank.)

ID.4 is a baby SUV, compare with something like a Tiguan/Audi Q3/etc.

This is a good website for size comparisons:
https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/volkswagen-id4-2020-suv-vs-volkswagen-tiguan-2020-suv/
https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/audi-q3-2018-suv-vs-volkswagen-id4-2020-suv/

In general, for the MEB-platform VW's (ID-anything) they tend to ride a bit higher because you sit on top of the battery pack, and you sit so much further forward because there is only a few things in the front engine compartment (no 'frunk' like a Tesla, but a larger boot, which is better IMO.)  The interior space in the ID.3 is very surprising for its size, easily as good as some larger SUVs, but the rear headroom is roughly the same as a Golf (I'm 6'3" and wouldn't recommend someone much taller get one, unless you get the glass roof which gives a little extra space.)

[Marco]

about 300 kg. (with a full fuel tank.)

Lets say 25% weight difference. Add that to the different weight distribution, higher tire pressure with a different suspension and different wear patterns.

[coppice]

ID.4 is a baby SUV, compare with something like a Tiguan/Audi Q3/etc.

I've been in a Tiguan, and I've been in an ID4. The ID4 seems a lot bigger. I don't think they are comparable. Car sizes are deceptive. We have a Honda Jazz and a Volvo V90. The V90 seems huge compared to the Jazz, yet there is less than a 25% difference in length.

[tom66]

ID.4 is a baby SUV, compare with something like a Tiguan/Audi Q3/etc.

I've been in a Tiguan, and I've been in an ID4. The ID4 seems a lot bigger. I don't think they are comparable. Car sizes are deceptive. We have a Honda Jazz and a Volvo V90. The V90 seems huge compared to the Jazz, yet there is less than a 25% difference in length.

If you look at the Carsized comparison you'll see the ID.4 is about 7.5cm longer than the Tiguan and 4.4cm taller;  the width is essentially the same.  The 4.4cm taller is eaten up by the battery pack height so I suspect interior height is no better than the Tiguan.  And whilst the ID.4 is a tad longer, it will just feel roomier anyway because MEB platform cars are like that.  (MEB platform is anything in the ID.n series, as well as ID.buzz and other products.)

The ID.3 is way roomier than my Golf GTE Mk7 was, I can have the seat all the way back so front passenger has almost 2ft of space in front of them and you could still comfortably get a smaller adult in the back, but the overall dimensions of the two vehicles are nearly identical.  In a 'normal' position for the driver/passenger you get easily enough space for two 6'3" people to sit in the back which was never possible in the Golf.  This is because there is no engine and transmission up front so you sit very far forwards.  The balls of your feet rest almost against the wheel well and the wheel sits only about 12-15cm from the very front of the car.  This does have a disadvantage though: I constantly find myself parking too far forwards and have to correct.  It's hard to unlearn years of parking longer-nose cars.  I'll figure it out eventually.

https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/volkswagen-golf-2012-5-door-hatchback-vs-volkswagen-id3-2019-5-door-hatchback/

[CatalinaWOW]

ID.4 is a baby SUV, compare with something like a Tiguan/Audi Q3/etc.

I've been in a Tiguan, and I've been in an ID4. The ID4 seems a lot bigger. I don't think they are comparable. Car sizes are deceptive. We have a Honda Jazz and a Volvo V90. The V90 seems huge compared to the Jazz, yet there is less than a 25% difference in length.

That 25% works out to a meter.  If an extra meter gets allocated to the passenger compartment is would seem ocean liner spacious.   Even if the passenger compartment doesn't get it all there is plenty for a huge difference in feel.  If you are willing to accept another 25% you can get one of our American crew cab behemoths.  They do seem extremely roomy inside, even for me and my son (both well over 2 meters tall).  Of course finding parking spots, turning around and escaping the fuel pump are all far more difficult.  I am willing to be "cramped" into a somewhat smaller vehicle.

[coppice]

ID.4 is a baby SUV, compare with something like a Tiguan/Audi Q3/etc.

I've been in a Tiguan, and I've been in an ID4. The ID4 seems a lot bigger. I don't think they are comparable. Car sizes are deceptive. We have a Honda Jazz and a Volvo V90. The V90 seems huge compared to the Jazz, yet there is less than a 25% difference in length.

That 25% works out to a meter.  If an extra meter gets allocated to the passenger compartment is would seem ocean liner spacious.   Even if the passenger compartment doesn't get it all there is plenty for a huge difference in feel.  If you are willing to accept another 25% you can get one of our American crew cab behemoths.  They do seem extremely roomy inside, even for me and my son (both well over 2 meters tall).  Of course finding parking spots, turning around and escaping the fuel pump are all far more difficult.  I am willing to be "cramped" into a somewhat smaller vehicle.

If you are tall the Honda Jazz is one of the best small cars to drive.  I can thoroughly recommend them. I can't fit in many fairly large (by European standards) cars, but I can happily drive that Honda for hours.