Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.

[Zero999]

Dunno what's wrong with that Chicago charging station or those people who left those cars but in say Norway superchargers operate in much harsher weather conditions. I only know Chicago for being a world famous dysfunctional shithole, so prolly has to do something with that.

Are you referring to the city I live in, or the one you see on Fox News TV?
When I traveled to Arctic Norway (Narvik) in February about 30 years ago, I dressed for Minnesota weather , but it was only so cold as Chicago;  never got to the Baltics.
I avoid sensational YouTube stuff: was that charging station inside the city limits, or northwest of Chicago which was hit much worse in last week’s storm?

Narvik is much milder than Minnesota. It has a sub-polar oceanic, rather than a humid continental climate.

It's possible to build EV chargers which can cope with extreme temperatures. If they don't work when it's too cold or hot, then the blam falls on the person who bought or designed it. They failled to read the datasheet properly.

[Jeroen3]

What makes chargers not work when cold?
Do the plugs freeze to the units? Does the LCD stop working? (probably)

Or is is something stupid like the local 4G antenna being snowed in?

[PlainName]

but in reality governments are what people have voted for (or allow) to rule them

Far too simplistic. You cannot pick and choose manifesto items (if they even make it to a manifesto), so if neither of the main parties will do your thing (perhaps make further education free, as an example) then you're stuffed. And yet no free education is what people would have voted for, right?

Even when some party does offer your specific thing, and also ALL your things you want, the chances are they won't get anywhere and some nasty party will get in. But, hey, that's what people voted for.

Ask the Belarussians how easy tricky it is to be not ruled by those you rather weren't ruling you.

[nctnico]

Ask the Belarussians how easy tricky it is to be not ruled by those you rather weren't ruling you.

You are always free to start a revolution. Or choose to stay passive.

[tom66]

I think the problem with EV chargers in cold weather is cold soaked EVs charging slowly.  You might get the occasional issue with connectors freezing, which if it's a common problem would be resolved by putting a little heater in the docking pod.  The power electronics should be fine at -40C, they'll get warm enough in use anyway.

[tszaboo]

BTW: I never understood why companies that install public chargers require apps and seperate payments systems.

In case of Tesla, until recently superchargers were Tesla exclusive and owners likely already had an app for other reasons, so wasn't a big problem. As of the reasons why you wound not want card payment terminals, having unattended self-service points of sale poses a very high susceptibility to skimmer fraud.

Don't think so. There are tons of unattended vending machines everywhere.

I think it is so the government can control it who gets their car charged and who doesn't. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but we saw 2 years back how tyrannical western governments can became. Think Canada. They de-banking people, taking away rights to "protect", forcing people to do things or they loose their jobs. You can fill up a petrol car, pay with cash, drive away. Put it in a jerry can, store it for a year. You need to register with address to be able to charge your electric car. Even if you would do that at a petrol station, you cannot do that with cash. And it "sometimes doesn't work". I don't like the idea TBH. Even if they wouldn't do it, they would have the option to do it.

[tom66]

I think it is so the government can control it who gets their car charged and who doesn't. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but we saw 2 years back how tyrannical western governments can became. Think Canada. They de-banking people, taking away rights to "protect", forcing people to do things or they loose their jobs. You can fill up a petrol car, pay with cash, drive away. Put it in a jerry can, store it for a year. You need to register with address to be able to charge your electric car. Even if you would do that at a petrol station, you cannot do that with cash. And it "sometimes doesn't work". I don't like the idea TBH. Even if they wouldn't do it, they would have the option to do it.

But I can also just plug my car into any ordinary plug socket and charge it, so how does that tyranny work?  Ok it's not super fast but 24hrs of charging and I have a full battery. I know people who use that as a full time solution.

[tszaboo]

I think it is so the government can control it who gets their car charged and who doesn't. I know it sounds like a conspiracy theory, but we saw 2 years back how tyrannical western governments can became. Think Canada. They de-banking people, taking away rights to "protect", forcing people to do things or they loose their jobs. You can fill up a petrol car, pay with cash, drive away. Put it in a jerry can, store it for a year. You need to register with address to be able to charge your electric car. Even if you would do that at a petrol station, you cannot do that with cash. And it "sometimes doesn't work". I don't like the idea TBH. Even if they wouldn't do it, they would have the option to do it.

But I can also just plug my car into any ordinary plug socket and charge it, so how does that tyranny work?  Ok it's not super fast but 24hrs of charging and I have a full battery. I know people who use that as a full time solution.

https://twitter.com/OttawaPolice/status/1490398101072490496
"Anyone attempting to bring material supports (gas, etc.) to the demonstrators could be subject to arrest. Enforcement is underway. " So how? You want to go somewhere where they don't want you to go and they switch off charging. They might switch off charging for everyone, for you specifically, or for protesters. For example they say it's a lockdown.
I might not agree on why they were on strike, and their politics, but the government's response should instill fear into everyone.
Oh, and this: https://insideevs.com/news/537120/ev-chargers-switched-off-uk/

[tom66]

But how would "they" switch off charging?   My home charger is 7kW and dumb as a bag of rocks, I plug in, it gives me electrons.  My portable charger is dumb, I plug in, it gives me electrons slowly.  I can easily pull the telematics fuse for my car and that means no app connectivity so no remote control any more by me or any untrustworthy agent. 

I mean this argument is silly because "they" could easily stop people driving in any area, doesn't matter if it's petrol, electric, hydrogen, Fred Flintstone style or whatever.

Edit: on the EV charging 'law' that's a regulation that would require EV chargers to automatically schedule to off peak times but all chargers would feature an override button to allow peak charging.  It's about nudging people by making off peak the default.  The 4-7pm period on most power grids is usually the worst time because of high demand which can't be constrained (unlike industry which often can), requiring a lot of fossils to balance the grid.  At some points, it's been known for balancing costs to hit £3000/MWh, over 500x the normal rate.  Anyway, if you were really terrified by that, you could stock up on cheap portable chargers from AliExpress which run off a Ceeform or equivalent and just give you 32 amps of charging whenever you need.

[nctnico]

But how would "they" switch off charging?   My home charger is 7kW and dumb as a bag of rocks, I plug in, it gives me electrons.  My portable charger is dumb, I plug in, it gives me electrons slowly.  I can easily pull the telematics fuse for my car and that means no app connectivity so no remote control any more by me or any untrustworthy agent. 

If you'd buy a new charger, it looks like it has to have functionality that allows it to be shutdown remotely. I don't see how this helps further deployments of BEVs but with the grid at the limits of capacity, something has go to give.

I mean this argument is silly because "they" could easily stop people driving in any area, doesn't matter if it's petrol, electric, hydrogen, Fred Flintstone style or whatever.

I agree. Shutting down gas stations / charging stations / whatever for policing purposes is silly. It won't happen because it will only make matter worse.

[David Hess]

BTW: I never understood why companies that install public chargers require apps and seperate payments systems.

so they can charge a transaction  fee on top of th e charging rate

Why would they need their own app for that versus a regular credit card?  Chargepoint stations take credit cards but offer you a discount if you have one of their cards.  I used to see apps demanding monthly fees to 'subscribe', but I think that's gone away for the most part.

I have found that more places are offering their own card or account to get a discount because it avoids the credit/debit card transaction fees.  They cannot add a surcharge for using credit/debit, but they can offer a discount for using their card/account or cash.

[nctnico]

IMHO needing to charge for debit / credit cars fees is a clear sign the business is not being run well. A healthy company shouldn't need to nickel & dime over these kinds of things.

[MT]

Aaand noow, ladies and gentlemen , Mr MGUY! 

[tom66]

I suspect the reason a lot of 'slow' chargers don't do credit cards is:
- They were designed a while ago, and cheap contactless payment modules weren't available at the time;
- Accepting credit/debit card payment means you need to pass the industry standards for data security (unless you use a 3rd party which takes more a cut, but you still have to integrate with them);
- At least until recently, it was not possible to universally pay without a PIN - Contactless can still require a PIN, Apple/Android Pay do not as the device does the verification - adding a PIN pad to every device and making it vandalism resistant for instance is difficult especially on a smaller unit;
- No legal requirement to do so (unlike rapid chargers).

[PlainName]

Local Asda is all pay-at-pump and they accept credit/debit cards easily. Not a nice area and the petrol station is a bit away from the supermarket, so serious scope for vandalism. But there isn't any.

I don't see any reason why EV chargers should be different except to force use of their app. Esso will give me 3p off a litre if I use their card - I assume it's for the data: how often I fill up, how much, my mileage, etc.

[tszaboo]

I mean this argument is silly because "they" could easily stop people driving in any area, doesn't matter if it's petrol, electric, hydrogen, Fred Flintstone style or whatever.

I agree. Shutting down gas stations / charging stations / whatever for policing purposes is silly. It won't happen because it will only make matter worse.
[/quote]
That also has happened.
https://hungarytoday.hu/fuel-price-cap-hungary-gas-gasoline-hungarian-petrol-stations-capped-price/

It might not make sense, but since when are politicians known to do the sensible thing?

[tom66]

Local Asda is all pay-at-pump and they accept credit/debit cards easily. Not a nice area and the petrol station is a bit away from the supermarket, so serious scope for vandalism. But there isn't any.

I don't see any reason why EV chargers should be different except to force use of their app. Esso will give me 3p off a litre if I use their card - I assume it's for the data: how often I fill up, how much, my mileage, etc.

As I said before, it's very uncommon to find a rapid charger now that doesn't take a credit/debit card and as in the Esso example you get a discount if you use a magic card but you can still pay with a credit/debit card, and if there are any left it'll be the odd local authority one - under 1% I'd estimate.   It's only the slow "park for 4 hours" chargers that DON'T regularly take debit/credit cards and I think that's for mostly historical reasons (it wasn't seen as a viable requirement when they were installed).  With mobile payment now common they really should get with the game already.

The one thing you can't do with an EV rapid charger is pay in cash.  I don't think I've seen anyone offer that.

[nctnico]

I mean this argument is silly because "they" could easily stop people driving in any area, doesn't matter if it's petrol, electric, hydrogen, Fred Flintstone style or whatever.

I agree. Shutting down gas stations / charging stations / whatever for policing purposes is silly. It won't happen because it will only make matter worse.

That also has happened.
https://hungarytoday.hu/fuel-price-cap-hungary-gas-gasoline-hungarian-petrol-stations-capped-price/

This is not for policing (=law enforcement) purposes but just to avoid scarsity.

[MT]

- when the temperature hits -30degC, there is epidemic of diesel vehicles dying and needing a tow, so 

Complete and utter  ... Seams you still live in the beginning of the 1900's.

[Ice-Tea]

- when the temperature hits -30degC, there is epidemic of diesel vehicles dying and needing a tow, so 

Complete and utter  ... Seams you still live in the beginning of the 1900's.

I'm honnestly curious: why is that BS? 'Regular' diesel craps out at about -5C. With additives, maybe -20C.. That's what I was told, have things changed?

[nctnico]

I never really had problems driving a  diesel at -10 to -20 degrees C. During winter there are extra additives in the diesel fuel to make it useful at low temperatures but this diesel is only sold in the winter. So if you aren't using the car often enough and thus end up using 'summer diesel' in the winter, you could run into trouble.

[Siwastaja]

- when the temperature hits -30degC, there is epidemic of diesel vehicles dying and needing a tow, so 

Complete and utter  ... Seams you still live in the beginning of the 1900's.

I'm just reporting what we are seeing here, nearly every year. It's all over the news, and personal experience from people close to me show the same. There are many reasons why it happens, and I have personally not had this problem, but it is not bullshit.

Those who live up North so that -30deg happens many times every year (not just every other year) know how to prepare - they fill in the correct winter-grade diesel early on, replace fuel filters more often, install fuel line heaters, generally prefer "known to be reliable" makes and models.

You may disagree with the severity of the issue, but it's not complete and utter bullshit.

[tom66]

My father told me a story of truckers lighting fires under their (hopefully metal) fuel tanks after a really cold night to defrost the fuel, not sure if that's an old wives tale or an actual method.  You'd want to be pretty sure the tank was liquid tight!

[Siwastaja]

I'm honnestly curious: why is that BS? 'Regular' diesel craps out at about -5C. With additives, maybe -20C.. That's what I was told, have things changed?

I'm not an expert about diesel vehicles, but as far as I know, and I have owned a diesel vehicle here and operated it without issues down to -30degC, there are winter grades that go significantly below -20, something like -35 is not a problem if everything's right both with the fuel and the vehicle. Yet in real world, not everything is perfect. Failures with diesel vehicles - and not only failures to start, but actually failures after driving for some time - go steeply up below -30degC. It's not 100% failure, but even 1% failure rate is pretty bad when you have thousands and thousands of lambs commuting at the same time. At something relatively mild weather like -15..-20degC, the only way to make them fail is to erroneously use summer grade diesel.

[mikeselectricstuff]

But how would "they" switch off charging?   My home charger is 7kW and dumb as a bag of rocks, I plug in, it gives me electrons.  My portable charger is dumb, I plug in, it gives me electrons slowly.  I can easily pull the telematics fuse for my car and that means no app connectivity so no remote control any more by me or any untrustworthy agent. 

If you'd buy a new charger, it looks like it has to have functionality that allows it to be shutdown remotely. I don't see how this helps further deployments of BEVs but with the grid at the limits of capacity, something has go to give.

yes, recent Uk regs require all home EVSEs to have smart functionality for various funcitons, mostly sensible - ability remotely stop or limit to help grid balancing. I don't think this is currently implemented, but charger has to be capable - this would be done in combination with customer incentives to allow it.
Also timed charging with randomised start times enabled by default.
All of this is user-overrideable.

I mean this argument is silly because "they" could easily stop people driving in any area, doesn't matter if it's petrol, electric, hydrogen, Fred Flintstone style or whatever.

I agree. Shutting down gas stations / charging stations / whatever for policing purposes is silly. It won't happen because it will only make matter worse.

It's hilarious when the anti-EV conspiricy nutters claim that EVs are about "them" controlling you, when ICE cars are 100% dependent on fuel supply, whereas there will always be electricity, ultimately from your own wind/solar if you want complete independence.