Piles of Tesla owners stranded at charge stations abandons their EV's.

[MT]

And now! Eevblog's newest favourite   Aussie (ex UK) EV debunker! Well, after the superb "Auto Expert John Cadogan"... of course. 

Why NOBODY will build EV charging stations | MGUY Australia:

[rstofer]

Somebody should have told our shopping center.   They put in several stations for the convenience of their customers.  Many other malls are doing the same thing.

My view:  Unless a responder has driven an EV as their primary (perhaps only) vehicle for, say, 9 years, their opinion is irrelevant and should be flagged as such.  They know exactly diddly.

[tom66]

Meanwhile more EV charging stations were installed in 2023 than in 2022 in the UK, and 2022 beat 2021, and 2021... You get the picture.   But sure, there's NO business model for installing these chargers.  It's completely non-existent.

Still enjoying my ID.3, will be coming up on 9 months of ownership now.  Much better than the plug in hybrid that preceded it.

[TimFox]

Besides shopping centers, another business that I have seen install charging stations in Chicago is in the parking lot for laundromats, where the clients need to park for a while.

[pqass]

So there's no business model to setup dedicated charging plazas (like a gas station?) where (in addition to the chargers) prime locations are few and expensive.  Also, gas stations aren't cheap either with the large tanks in the ground and the evironmental cleanup during and afterwards.  It's typical of EV infrastructure to have most costs up front but at least the recurring energy delivery won't require a truck fleet.

But why the worry that Tesla will setup next door to you?  It sounds like they manged to get a business model that works for them.

I see a future where existing ammenities (tourist attractions, shopping, dining, etc) will put up a few chargers in their parking lots to attract shoppers. Typically, the property managment companies would own or lease-out the stalls like some solar companies will lease your roof (eg. a cut of production). 

If only all the operators would unite under one internet access point/marketplace so that customers can have a seamless experience; having timely knowledge of all nearby available chargers (their abilities and status) and the local attractions to entice/keep them.

From the news reporting, I'm surprised that the Tesla network still lead cutomers to unavailable chargers.

[tom66]

So there's no business model to setup dedicated charging plazas (like a gas station?) where (in addition to the chargers) prime locations are few and expensive.  Also, gas stations aren't cheap either with the large tanks in the ground and the evironmental cleanup during and afterwards.  It's typical of EV infrastructure to have most costs up front but at least the recurring energy delivery won't require a truck fleet.

But why the worry that Tesla will setup next door to you?  It sounds like they manged to get a business model that works for them.

I see a future where existing ammenities (tourist attractions, shopping, dining, etc) will put up a few chargers in their parking lots to attract shoppers. Typically, the property managment companies would own or lease-out the stalls like some solar companies will lease your roof (eg. a cut of production). 

If only all the operators would unite under one internet access point/marketplace so that customers can have a seamless experience; having timely knowledge of all nearby available chargers (their abilities and status) and the local attractions to entice/keep them.

It's already a whole lot better than it was a few years ago.  For rapid chargers you can nearly universally use a credit/debit card and bypass all that app bullshit.  There's also a few unifying companies that have RFID cards available that give you access to discounted tariffs (for instance I get 8% off the bill when I use my 'Electroverse' card).

For slow AC charging the situation is still "apps are the way" for the majority and it's a pain, though mostly the pain happens when first discovering, oh, this charger is run by Shell, so I need to go and register for those guys and set up my card with them.  And for some reason a lot of these companies haven't figured out Apple Pay, seriously, this is 2024, it's been around as an app integration for at least 5 years now.

From the news reporting, I'm surprised that the Tesla network still lead cutomers to unavailable chargers.

I suspect it didn't, Tesla does route people away from chargers like this.  It is probably the case that people went here because they knew it existed.  That said Tesla will never route its customers to 3rd party chargers so if this is truly the only supercharger for a while it could be a reason they all ended up there.  They should probably change that, though I can understand their reluctance as they are a bit like Apple in wanting to control the whole "experience".

[bdunham7]

My view:  Unless a responder has driven an EV as their primary (perhaps only) vehicle for, say, 9 years, their opinion is irrelevant and should be flagged as such.  They know exactly diddly.

OK, I have a 2014 model year EV so I guess I can say something?  Yes, EV charging stations are being built for various reasons but the observation that an EV charging station as a standalone business is hopeless if you expect a profit is still entirely true.  That sad fact has nothing to do with the various reasons that EV charging stations are being built--those reasons being things like a very large fraud settlement with VW or businesses and municipalities putting them in because they are required, encouraged or seen as the socially responsible thing to do, or simply as a way of dominating the market like Tesla.  But the EV charging business on its own doesn't work so there has to be another reason for someone to do it. 

You might think that all that doesn't matter and the only thing you care about is that the stations are being built.  Well, good luck with that in the long run and if you want an example of what might happen, take a look at L2 charging.  Our 2014 EV does not have HVDC charging, only L2.  That worked just fine for us for the first 5 years or so, charging mostly at home but using destination charging for certain extended trips.  We still can do that sometimes, but not as reliably or often because the L2 chargers have been going away and the remaining ones are overwhelmed.  There are no funds to maintain them and the business model is so bad that even paying fairly expensive rates won't allow the EV charging station owner to even maintain an existing, installed charger let alone install more, regardless of demand.

This hasn't killed off our EV use, just reduced our driving range a bit at times.  We'll take a different vehicle for long trips as always and the only difference is what we drive on some intermediate runs.  Home charging still works.  But my viewpoint is that depending on public EV charging is not a good long term plan at this point as it will either collapse or become badly overburdened once the subsides and growth euphoria subsides.  I already see lines at local EV charging stations, even the new Electrify America station near my house that really isn't on the road to anywhere. 

[wraper]

Dunno what's wrong with that Chicago charging station or those people who left those cars but in say Norway superchargers operate in much harsher weather conditions. I only know Chicago for being a world famous dysfunctional shithole, so prolly has to do something with that.

[Kleinstein]

Under the conditions of extreme cold the electric grid is under stress from high demand. Chances are the rates for the larger consumers are sky high now and those charging stations likely have to pay them or possibly even have to shut down to avoid overload / backouts.  A few stranded cars may be lesser evil compared to a black out.  In the US the electricity grid in many areas is quite weak.

The cold wether also adds quite some demand on the battery usage for heating the car. So those cars that are normally mainly charged at home suddently need an extra charge after only a relatively short drive.

[David Hess]

My view:  Unless a responder has driven an EV as their primary (perhaps only) vehicle for, say, 9 years, their opinion is irrelevant and should be flagged as such.  They know exactly diddly.

If I was going to buy an EV, then charging station available and reliability are prime concerns, and so far it seems like a losing proposition unless I can rely on only charging at home.

If individual charger availability and reliability is not being published in real time, then they are not available and reliable; they are hiding poor availability and poor reliability.

[TimFox]

Dunno what's wrong with that Chicago charging station or those people who left those cars but in say Norway superchargers operate in much harsher weather conditions. I only know Chicago for being a world famous dysfunctional shithole, so prolly has to do something with that.

Are you referring to the city I live in, or the one you see on Fox News TV?
When I traveled to Arctic Norway (Narvik) in February about 30 years ago, I dressed for Minnesota weather , but it was only so cold as Chicago;  never got to the Baltics.
I avoid sensational YouTube stuff: was that charging station inside the city limits, or northwest of Chicago which was hit much worse in last week’s storm?

[Homer J Simpson]

Why Hertz is Dumping Tesla

[TimFox]

A recent newspaper business section article pointed out that Tesla’s recent price cuts (reacting to competition) automatically reduced the resale value of Hertz’ inventory of Teslas for eventual resale as used cars.
Obviously, charging stations and vehicle sales need to bootstrap each other for full-scale adoption of EVs.

[tszaboo]

Why Hertz is Dumping Tesla

It's because the repair cost of Tesla is insanely high. I've seen a repair bill for a model X door that was more than a VW Golf. My boss spent more on his 3-4 year old Tesla on repairs for small accidents, and the charger that blows up in his car, then I did buying and running my Toyota. This is not a good indication for electric cars in general, because other car makers know how to make cars that can be repaired.

[bdunham7]

Are you referring to the city I live in, or the one you see on Fox News TV?

Chicagoland or the Chicago area, all the same, right?  I could live in Lake Forest and concerned (foreign) relatives would send me news stories about Harvey, IL.  The Tesla Supercharger was in Oakbrook.

[TimFox]

Oakbrook is not even in Cook County.
Wrapper apparently knows that Chicago is a “dysfunctional shithole”, but I doubt he has visited here.
I have lived in the city since 1970.

[nctnico]

A recent newspaper business section article pointed out that Tesla’s recent price cuts (reacting to competition) automatically reduced the resale value of Hertz’ inventory of Teslas for eventual resale as used cars.
Obviously, charging stations and vehicle sales need to bootstrap each other for full-scale adoption of EVs.

According to the news sources over here, Tesla refuses to sell their cars to Hertz with a guaranteed buy-back price where other manufacturers do offer a guaranteed buy-back price to rental companies like Hertz. On top of that repairs of Tesla's cars take long so the downtime is too long.

BTW: I never understood why companies that install public chargers require apps and seperate payments systems. It only make things harder for BEV users. Everyone has a debit / credit card. But I guess these companies have the same marketing geniuses onboard like electronic part manufacturers that require registration to see a datasheet 

[SiliconWizard]

The base reason is probably similar: tracking customers. It's nasty, but it's not stupid.

[PlainName]

Also, gas stations aren't cheap either with the large tanks in the ground and the evironmental cleanup during and afterwards.

Local supermarket put the tank above ground (it's inside what looks like a normal gas station shop, but that's just a front for the tank). No hole to dig, no hole to decontaminate and fill in when it's taken away. Set to one side of the car park so they didn't have to buy more prime estate. Only time it's not being used is when it runs dry.

Meantime, the same place has 4 spaces for charging EVs. It's rare to see them all being used at once, although generally at least one will be. They put those right outside the main entrance so you'd think using an EV would save having to walk very far

Edit: You think I'm exaggerating, so here's a pix

[themadhippy]

BTW: I never understood why companies that install public chargers require apps and seperate payments systems.

so they can charge a transaction  fee on top of th e charging rate

[bdunham7]

BTW: I never understood why companies that install public chargers require apps and seperate payments systems.

so they can charge a transaction  fee on top of th e charging rate

Why would they need their own app for that versus a regular credit card?  Chargepoint stations take credit cards but offer you a discount if you have one of their cards.  I used to see apps demanding monthly fees to 'subscribe', but I think that's gone away for the most part.

[themadhippy]

Why would they need their own app for that versus a regular credit card?

In the uk at least,you cant add a fee for just using a credit or debit card,the loop hole is to call it a transaction fee for using the app.

[bdunham7]

In the uk at least,you cant add a fee for just using a credit or debit card,the loop hole is to call it a transaction fee for using the app.

I guess I'm not understanding something.  Why not just charge the fee for using the charger?

[EEVblog]

BTW: I never understood why companies that install public chargers require apps and seperate payments systems.

That's my major gripe.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/U08Y_S4Cs2E

[wraper]

BTW: I never understood why companies that install public chargers require apps and seperate payments systems.

In case of Tesla, until recently superchargers were Tesla exclusive and owners likely already had an app for other reasons, so wasn't a big problem. As of the reasons why you wound not want card payment terminals, having unattended self-service points of sale poses a very high susceptibility to skimmer fraud.